Tommy Carruthers

[boxerbilly]

Crap or good? Serious trainer or a dumb punk ? Dangerous or a cry baby because Young showed upped and challenged him and he did not want to fight. I would not want to fight Young either by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdvIAYGRUus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLiKAI4Jfy4

[jimbob]

He looks very fast.

It's hard to tell from what's out there, but the way he throws his technique makes me wonder if he's not just reinforced those neuromuscular pathways. He's pulling everything. I wonder if he's hit anyone for real.

[boxerbilly]

He is very fast. Some of it looks like there is good power too. He does not believe in free sparring. Certain sparring drills I think he does. I forget why he scarped sparring from his teaching but I think he mentioned it tends to develop bad habits. As pulling can, I'd suggest.

[boxerbilly]

It matters little to me a guy backs down. That's life. Sometimes you know, I can't take this guy. It's not like he entered a competition. I forget the beef. He may have said things about the Inosanto school of taught and got Young a bit miffed. What ever else transpired, Tommy got out of it. Sign of an intelligent man. Tactically smart. Or call him a *****. Up to your beliefs and experiences.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If he truly dopes not believe in free fighting/sparring then that speaks volumes.
The very core, the essence of JKD IS free sparring/fighting.

[boxerbilly]

I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.

Not sure how sparring drills being as close to free sparring is somehow better than actually sparring.
That is like suggesting that driving drills in a parking lots are just as good as driving in traffic to prepare drives to drive in traffic.
That is just silly.

[David Jamieson]

Targets, real targets in H2H move.

This kind of demonstration has purpose in showing the textbook version of a technique.
But if you don't move beyond that, it's all useless because none of it will work at all in an actual scenario.

This is not the kind of thing you can trot out at a later date looking for acceptance as a valid means of combative development or training.

If it does not move up to realism and application in realistic scenarios and stays with the "may as well be a bob" type attacks, then it's likely not as serviceable as it is promoted to be.

Speed is easy to get with technique when the target never moves.

[Brat]

I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.

The problem with sparring in lots of styles nowadays is that you'll see some guy doing all sorts of traditional forms and stances but when it comes time to spar out comes the generic kickboxing. And who's gonna win in such a fight? The best kick boxer of course. Of course I trained in Muay Thai which is essentially kickboxing but when I began practicing xingyi (which in my opinion has very superior footwork WHEN APPLIED CORRECTLY) we did nothing but prearranged drills which included the an shen pao two man form which is more free but still scripted in a sense. With lots of practice in the aforementioned pulling it out spontaneously isn't a chore.

Also people tend to fight just like they spar. Very seldom in real life have I seen two people "square off" which is how sparring begins. People are cowards and they'll try to hit you with a surprise blitz when you are distracted or aren't paying attention (the sucker punch). I've seen it too much. I know of two guys who were black belts and each had lots of sparring experience and success in tourneys who respectively got stomped by some dudes who were not nearly as skilled. The fights started as I described and they had like a "holy ****, this ain't how it's supposed to start" mentality at least at a subliminal level and in one guys case it caused a brief shutdown that gave his opponent all the time he needed.

My two of my teachers (Taekkyon and xingyi) trained that you should be able to respond to an attack whether it be squared off of hands down at your sides. One time in HS I had a couple of guys pin me against the locker and start wailing on me. I tried to get away by rolling against the lockers but they just followed me and I ended up getting the brunt of the attack (multiple opponents aren't cool).

Twenty five years later when I was in South Korea I was in Seoul for the first time on a brief holiday. I had met up with a Croatian dude and he told me about a happening club somewhere along the way. We walked around until we found it as we were walking in the door some freaking HUGE (about 6'3") US service man came out the door and immediately threw a punch at my head. I ducked but caught a little of the forearm on the brow which cut me. He dove into me and pushed me against the wall. I rolled out along the wall as I had done years earlier in HS and I think I pushed my foot against the wall and got him in a bear hug. when he started to pull back I hooked his leg which threw us against the door and we both fell through the door and back into the bar. We had some considerable momentum going and when the dude hit the floor he cracked his head pretty hard. I looked up an saw about half a dozen US servicemen with the WTF?? look on their faces. I shot up and bolted out the door like a bat outta hell and to my good fortune there was a nice pink Taxi cab with a vacant light passing right by. I jumped in and wildly pointed to the driver in the opposite direction. He did a donut just as all those dudes were piling out of the bar after me. Now I didn't know this dude, I had never seen him or had any idea what his problem was, nor did I stick around to sort things out.

No amount of sparring in the dojang could have prepared me for that. But as I later reflected on the incident lots of previous ones like the one I mentioned came to mind.

[David Jamieson]

There is only kick, punch, throw and lock.
Expecting to see action movie stuff in a fight is..well, that's the viewers problem.

In any tcma there is basic kick, punch, throws and locks and that's what is used in a situation.

Fancy stances etc have no real place in anything outside of stylistic dueling.

There is no such thing as "generic" kickboxing". Kickboxing with throws an locks is what Traditional chinese martial art is.

If someone is trying to sell you on only the fancy stuff like tornado kicks is "the realz" then they are pulling your leg or talking sh!t.

Not that those things aren't used. Because they are. There are multiple examples of UFC guys even pulling obscure moves out of the the toolbag. They do lend to the surprise factor.

The main point is that if you don't move beyond smacking a bag or demonstrating on a dude who just stands there, then you aren't likely to be developing the ability to actually apply the martial arts in the self.

[Jimbo]

I have no issues (nor any reason to have any) with Tommy Carruthers, but here are a few personal observations.

It's fairly easy for someone with some natural athletic ability to demonstrate impressive-looking speed combinations when the 'opponent' is just standing there. Even supposing a real opponent just stood there; the way the combination is demo'd wouldn't work that way. Making real contact changes everything. The opponent's body reacting to that contact changes everything, such as changes in body position, what opens up/becomes closed off, etc. It affects the sheer speed of your strikes, too. And that's if the opponent were to just stand there and allow you to strike him.

In truth, nobody just stands there in awe. Not if you're forced into a position to have to fight them. Doing only sparring drills but not real sparring will never teach you what you can make work, and how/when something works. No matter how close to 'real' the drills are. Sparring drills should lead up to sparring, not replace it. Sparring may not be the only important aspect, but it's essential to learn to deal with others who aren't cooperating with you and trying to get you, too.

The Hung Gar master I mentioned in the Vic Moore/Bruce Lee thread had the fastest kicks I've seen or faced, including "Superfoot" Wallace's, though the HG master didn't deliver his kicks in the same manner. When he kicked people in sparring, he was still lightning fast and explosive, but only from floor into the target. His snap-back was not as fast as when kicking air. Because the energy was spent going into the target. Same idea. If Carruthers was actually making penetrating contact with those punches, it would change the nature of his punching speed.

[boxerbilly]

Not sure how sparring drills being as close to free sparring is somehow better than actually sparring.
That is like suggesting that driving drills in a parking lots are just as good as driving in traffic to prepare drives to drive in traffic.
That is just silly.


I could not answer that. I really don't know why he feels that way and it is coming second hand from a memory that could be off a bit with the accuracy but I'm really sure he said that.

My buddy I mentioned in a PM to you. In London, Lt. Col. Grossman gave a seminar ( he wrote " On Killing" ) flat out told him sportive combative practice is needed because it is as close to real H2H as we can get. Looking at it from a point of preparing one to be able to handle the stress of a similar situation.

Grossmans book was ( and still is ) an eye opening book for its time. Most of his research has been plastered all over the web in rewritten form that reading it now could be redundant.

[boxerbilly]

I looked briefly and could not find the clip on youtube. It may have never been on youtube. I did find this and perhaps this is the sort of stuff he mentioned? Just a guess. I don't have time to search in depth for it at present. Sorry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmfKTnvOUJw

[boxerbilly]

[QUOTE=
Twenty five years later when I was in South Korea I was in Seoul for the first time on a brief holiday. I had met up with a Croatian dude and he told me about a happening club somewhere along the way. We walked around until we found it as we were walking in the door some freaking HUGE (about 6'3") US service man came out the door and immediately threw a punch at my head. I ducked but caught a little of the forearm on the brow which cut me. He dove into me and pushed me against the wall. I rolled out along the wall as I had done years earlier in HS and I think I pushed my foot against the wall and got him in a bear hug. when he started to pull back I hooked his leg which threw us against the door and we both fell through the door and back into the bar. We had some considerable momentum going and when the dude hit the floor he cracked his head pretty hard. I looked up an saw about half a dozen US servicemen with the WTF?? look on their faces. I shot up and bolted out the door like a bat outta hell and to my good fortune there was a nice pink Taxi cab with a vacant light passing right by. I jumped in and wildly pointed to the driver in the opposite direction. He did a donut just as all those dudes were piling out of the bar after me. Now I didn't know this dude, I had never seen him or had any idea what his problem was, nor did I stick around to sort things out.

.[/QUOTE]


Smart man.

[boxerbilly]

Got home and searched for it a good amount. I can not find it but I did find this thread. I'm not reading through it but on the google search some one made a comment he does not spar. This stuff goes back to 2007. It may have been that long ago I saw the documentary? Anyway, for those that want to know more there may be some students of his posting in that thread.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88191

[Kellen Bassette]

Very seldom in real life have I seen two people "square off" which is how sparring begins. People are cowards and they'll try to hit you with a surprise blitz when you are distracted or aren't paying attention (the sucker punch).

There's no training that will enable you to defend a sucker punch. The best fighter in the world can get punched in the back of the head by anyone when his back is turned and he's talking to someone else. The best chance of surviving a sucker punch is to have done enough real sparring, having been hit enough, that you can immediately recover and compose yourself after being rocked. Assuming the punch doesn't knock you out.....

[Brat]

There is only kick, punch, throw and lock.
Expecting to see action movie stuff in a fight is..well, that's the viewers problem.

In any tcma there is basic kick, punch, throws and locks and that's what is used in a situation.

Fancy stances etc have no real place in anything outside of stylistic dueling.

There is no such thing as "generic" kickboxing". Kickboxing with throws an locks is what Traditional chinese martial art is.

If someone is trying to sell you on only the fancy stuff like tornado kicks is "the realz" then they are pulling your leg or talking sh!t.

Not that those things aren't used. Because they are. There are multiple examples of UFC guys even pulling obscure moves out of the the toolbag. They do lend to the surprise factor.

The main point is that if you don't move beyond smacking a bag or demonstrating on a dude who just stands there, then you aren't likely to be developing the ability to actually apply the martial arts in the self.

I learned to fight in one of the toughest high schools I've ever seen years before I took a single martial arts class so I know what will work and what wont. In my school there was no question of "Who is the toughest guy?" It was about your place on the social/political scale and who you ran afoul of. Lots of guys who were the "big shots" regularly got rolled by an ambush which put them into traction for a few weeks. In their absence some other dude would take over. Then maybe he'd ambush that guy once he recovered.

One of the biggest problems with sparring and tourneys is that you get to prepare for them and you know they are coming. Real brawls happen when they happen and you're not stretched out and might not be wearing clothes conducive to that sort of thing. You might be all stuffed up with a head cold who knows? When I said generic kickboxing I just meant the dancing and slapping that goes on in point fights. Trust me I've done 5 rounds of Muay Thai in an arena with lights and the freaky music. Real fights last 10-15 seconds.

The Muhammed Ali type of dancing around is ****ty footwork to prepare for a real fight. Most of the time it's gonna be infighting and in that situation I'll take a good solid stance to the Tae Bo any day of the week. If you've got the maneuverability and stamina to prance then you've probably equally got the chance to turn tail and get the hell out of there which is the smarter option.

[Brat]

There's no training that will enable you to defend a sucker punch. The best fighter in the world can get punched in the back of the head by anyone when his back is turned and he's talking to someone else. The best chance of surviving a sucker punch is to have done enough real sparring, having been hit enough, that you can immediately recover and compose yourself after being rocked. Assuming the punch doesn't knock you out.....

I'm sorry to disagree but sparring in my opinion wont really help you much in a real fight at least not to the extent that the common wisdom suggests. You learn fighting by fighting for real that's the way it is. Theory is garbage. Most fights I've seen and been in have begun with a blitz of some sort. Two guys talking smack and then one finally gets too riled and piles into another. There's not enough time to get into a kickboxing stance and all your kickboxing moves are worthless when you get shoved against a wall. A kickboxing ring or mat is free of debris. In the real world there's **** laying all over the place - towels, book bags, trash and you can and will trip over them. And there's people standing around who probably don't have the reflexes to shoot out of the way should you make a hasty move. Remember the days on the schoolyard when one kid kneels behind you and you get shoved backward? Same principle.

The upside to this is that I've met few people who could actually throw a really good punch. Muay Thai boxers are notorious for this because they hold their guards too high and rely upon their elbows, knees, and kicks. Blindsides happen but I've seen them lots less than the face to face fights. More than one guy? Get the **** out of there! With a blindside sucker punch, usually those guys are the hardest hitters of all and no matter how much sparring and absorbing blows you've done it's lights out. 90% of the martial arts I know I probably would never use in a real encounter and I haven't.

If I see an opening (assuming I have time) I'll go for it. Might be grappling might be a low shin kick or a foot stomp. But the techniques I've relied upon in the past in the real deal have been simple stuff. Nothing that's gonna put me up there with Seven Segal or Jean Claude van Damme at the box office. Also I don't want anyone to get the impression that I am marketing myself as some sort of bad ass. I have lost more fights than I have ever won if you can even win a real one. I have been in 3 fights in the past 25 years. One was the one I posted earlier, another was against some kitchen manager at a TGI Fridays who had a "Black Belt" in attitude and potty mouth fu and not much else. The third was against a mentally unstable kid in the seat of a school bus. Lots more back in the school days.

The last person anyone wants to fight, me included is someone who can and will do you harm. Going up against an equal is for the ring where you've got a soft mat and a referee.

[boxerbilly]

I can only imagine what most who read your reports think. Actually I know what they think.

Brat, thanks for sharing your experience's. This one gives gold!

Ill add that aside from inside tight bars. Ive never encountered much in the way of anything restricting foot movement, Chairs being the most common in my experience. Snow/ice can be a problem. Thankfully never had any trouble in snow. They are considerations but for me, seldom presented.

If someone does not go down after the first one to a couple of shots. Now you will be fighting. Prior, one assaults the other. This is how it really goes down. In your face. I know, everyone says, it wont happen to me. Yes it will. There are guy so gifted at talking themselves right into your concentration and personal space you never see it coming. Brats right about sucker punchers dropping people. They got a big punch and they understand how to get you with it before you do anything. Again, many will believe they will never get that close to me. I've seen different. Its happened to me. He is close enough to touch you and moves first, good luck. If he has sucked you into his world you don't stand a chance at stopping it period. Best you got is as Kellen suggest. Learn to take a shot. Works better when you are younger. Works better if the guy punching does not have a knock out shot.

It would be much better if guys understood, knew and agreed this will be a fight. Then you can control the range you like the best if you are able. Like that San Soo clip. It was agreed on first.

Also, most guys glue to the floor. They move almost not at all. Plus almost everyone keeps their hands down. Cops are trained to write close to their chest or hold one or both hands in fornt of their chest while interviewing and assessing a suspect. Why? Most people head hunt. If his hands are chest high he stands a far greater chance or taking the shot on the arms. He does not have to move them as far. He can probably do it. Like Vic Moore could have to Lee if his hands were up. I think we all agree Moore was really fast. But he failed and had prior warning.

Frequently a guy will push, hands go back down and the hold ground again. It is an instinctual response and reconditioned by inside beliefs you will look a coward should you back up. Put you hands up and all that. We train one way only so long and we spend the rest of the day un-training what we try to achieve. Most of us do not walk around primed for a fight. It is for most people an unrealistic goal. We simply do not live that way. We go to work and be nice people. We hold doors and say hello. We allow people into our personal space all day long. At stores, banks, gyms. The thing we want to avoid in a confrontation we train ourselves to do single day to do. It is a unfortunate truth for the vast majority of us. We simply do not go around looking to have a fight or knock another out. Those guys that do probably just got out of jail for having done so a few months prior, if caught. Most guys don't get caught. It almost never happens someone will intervene on your behalf. Even if they want to, things can go from looking normal to over in a flash. How many of us chased down the last guy that decked someone? I'd suggest few the post here or anyplace. It is not the normal response. At best they call the cops and ask for a ambulance.

Life can go bad fast. I choose not to live that way anymore. Primed. Ready for it. It will come to you if that's what you want.

[boxerbilly]

That begs the question. If we know that and anyone that has watch fights, normal not agreed on fights were guys match up on some dirt patch and hurt one another. But the kind you'll likely find your self in. Guy in your face. Knowing what is probable. How do you respond? What do you do? How do you make your art fit that? I posted some vids of wing chun guys doing rather well and better in many case going up against karate guys and I suspect they could do as well against **** near anyone that stays on their feet. But they knew when the fight was starting. This is the least of our worries as it seldom will happen that way. There also is a good chance if you back down it ends before blows.

How do you make your art work before it turns into a fight if you are lucky enough to take a shot and get distance or grab and hold. Which may take it to the ground. Are you ready for that? Life sure can suck when you look at the probable instead of what you wish or believe will happen. The only time I ever made a kick work was when I kicked first. Front kicks. I once threw a round kick on a rather big guy and almost ended up on may ass doing so. I never threw another again.

Ive only ever blocked punches in things that managed to become fights with my face and body. I wont count stupid stuff. I mean guys really wanting to put me out. I'll admit I suck at that. Are you prepared to be honest with yourself? In that one clip I posted of that Tai Chi guy that managed a really nice wrist or arm throw on a crowed train. If he did not make that move first he probably could have never pulled it off.

So, is that what we have? We have to move first? We have to become the thing we disdain? I suggest so. And then I suggest you turn and run away.

I suggest unless you are training to enter sanctioned fights, once you under stand the likely and the bad things you will probably have to do. I suggest you find other reasons to train. That being for slow learners like myself. Not you fellows more mentally mature than the rest of us. Find another reason. And stay out of the stupid places all this stuff normally happens. Keep your mouth shut . Something I really had to work on. It ain't worth it.

[JamesC]

I don't know much about him, although I did hear recently of some challenges made to Mr. Carruthers.

One of the challengers was(supposedly) my former instructor Marc McFann. Another was Rick Young. Both are long-time Guro Dan Inosanto students. Leads me to believe some type of disrespect toward Guro Dan.

Just hearsay, though. I'm no longer in the loop, and last I heard Sifu McFann was retired.

[boxerbilly]

It really does not matter. It's like saying Emin Boztepe sucks because Bas Rutten shows up and said, you been talking about me we can settle it right here. He did. With words. Emin may in fact know more than Bas but that does not mean he can beat Bas. It's just not fair but that's how it works.

I think if Tommy moves first almost anyone is going to have problems. As Jimbo pointed out, those being demos and his speed and flow will be off if he was really laying into someone. But he puts those fingers in your eyes and my money says you're going down.

So in most of the situations we are likely to actually face it becomes like the old west. Funny, it appears that's the case even if you are in China. 2 guys face each other. Psych on one another and lets see who has the fastest draw and the bigger round. For average, normal people it tends to be the guy that moves first and lands first. You guys with an over abundance of neuropeptide Y don't react the way most of us do. It may tip the scales in your favor. Ace up your sleeve. Most of you that have that wont even know you do. You just don't understand why people do what they do when confronted how they are.

[boxerbilly]

An example of a BJJ guy making his art fit the scenario. He is actually rather skilled at his set up. Gave the big guy a little harmless shot to get him to change his game plan. Possibly,he short circuited his trigger and created a new response. It played into his strengths. He may not have understood what he did .I've seen a longer version. Just a bit more trash talk coming from the kid. The guy kept saying take a shot. The kid kept telling him you are stupid. You want me to hit you with your hands down? He obviously understands buddy, you are not that fast. Seeing it we would assume that the kid started it. We may be wrong in that assumption. He may simply had stood his ground on an issue he had every right to? I really don't know. I suspect we will see a lot more things going this way. It all ready is.

And I am no bjj guy but I am not foolish enough to think it wont work in the street. It has is strengths. In this particular instance it was possibly the best option. In a crowd? Maybe not. In many ways, this method can potentially save both parties from any real harm to either person. The extra head shots could have been overkill. Lots of anger present. People have trouble keeping that in check once it goes to action. Are you prepared for something like that? I for one am not !

In the end. Aside from hurt pride and minor scuffs and dings. Everyone went away essentially unharmed. Teeth in there heads. No stitches needed. No heads cracking the pavement causing death. It did kind of look like the kid may have wacked his head jerking the guy back into position. A thing to consider and guard against if you train bjj. Figure a way to not smack your head. Just a consideration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq7zdNdyFmY

[Brat]

How do you make your art work before it turns into a fight if you are lucky enough to take a shot and get distance or grab and hold. Which may take it to the ground. Are you ready for that? Life sure can suck when you look at the probable instead of what you wish or believe will happen. The only time I ever made a kick work was when I kicked first. Front kicks. I once threw a round kick on a rather big guy and almost ended up on may ass doing so. I never threw another again.

The hands are the best weapons in these instances. My xingyi teacher taught me to hold the lead hand in front of the head because that would negate the possibility of a straight punch to the face. Both hands are along the body's center line to guard the upper and lower gates. Common in Wing Chun also You can do this without really indicating that you are preparing for an offensive while moving backwards or to the side to maintain distance. One of the bad things about modern sparring is that in most kickboxing (Muay Thai included) they teach you to absorb blows with your arms and legs. With the legs its ok but the arms, without big fluffy gloves are ill prepared to absorb blows. If his fist collides with yours it's gonna hurt! Also you aren't going to win any fight by simply absorbing blows from your opponent.

I've got lot's of old books in my library written by old school military and street boxers. These dudes were in real fights more often than not. Every single one of them uses a block to trap the arm (though not necessarily by grabbing) and then a counter. You don't see boxers doing this nowadays. A boxer's best weapon is ducking the blow but if the dude bum rushes you and takes it to grappling the boxing is finished. In xingyi my teacher taught me to immobilize the attacking limb while simultaneously counter attacking. One thing that worked really well for me is kneeing the legs especially around the knee. This of course is done at point blank range when you and the opponent are shoulder to shoulder. They'll teach you that in Muay Thai but if you're not careful a ref can foul you in a real match. I used it in HS several times as well as a low round kick to the side of the knee which folds the leg and drives the dude to the floor.

The only thing in grappling that will help you is to be a darn good wrestler and by that I mean the kind that can keep it on the feet. BJJ guys tend to suck at this because they instinctively favor the ground. But trust me the ground outside your gym is not your friend. If you go down use your BJJ to get yourself on top. No one I have ever seen in real life ever won from the bottom.

You are right high kicks are dangerous. It's mostly because people generally don't practice kicking with a shoe on which is much different than kicking barefooted depending on what your sole is made of. I've seen a some high kicks used as follow up moves to a successful punch but they are too slow to be used as a primary attack. However for low kicks a shoe is heavy armor and even a rubber athletic shoe sole can cause considerable damage to an opponent as well as provide protection to your foot. I have had success with a sweeping kick to the shin while advancing and with a hard soled shoe this can be pretty devastating. Best used when a guy is rushing towards you if you can't move backwards.

[Brat]

And I am no bjj guy but I am not foolish enough to think it wont work in the street. It has is strengths. In this particular instance it was possibly the best option. In a crowd? Maybe not. In many ways, this method can potentially save both parties from any real harm to either person. The extra head shots could have been overkill. Lots of anger present. People have trouble keeping that in check once it goes to action. Are you prepared for something like that? I for one am not !


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq7zdNdyFmY

Monkey Kung Fu will work in the streets if the practitioner will adapt it to the situation BUT as in all martial arts that requires a solid knowledge of what can happen in a real fight. You and I both have that knowledge and experience. As I said before the biggest detriment to BJJ guys is that they are comfortable on the ground. It's where they like to fight. Long before I had a lovely wife and two wonderful children at home to think about I treasured mobility in a street encounter if for no other reason than to high tail it if the need arose. When you go to the ground you lose that advantage. Concrete grappling is different from mat and that goes without needed explanation. Early BJJ victories by Royce inc. most of the time involved dudes with little or zero knowledge of grappling or at least non "you pin you win" mindset. A BJJ dude who goes down with a good HS or college wrestler can have their hands full as in my experience the latter usually has some street cred somewhere along the way.

Strangely the most frightening part of the encounter for me is the few seconds before it actually happens. Once the physical starts I am kind of in the zone so to speak. I am not angry I just do what I do. Sometimes it works. Leading up to that I get the weak knees, losing the voice, trembling, etc... It all disappears once the action starts for some reason.

[boxerbilly]

It was a long time ago. I was 32 my last time and I'm glad I changed.

One thing that is glaringly apparent to me that can be an advantage is on the ground the action slows. Unless a guy mounts and pounds. That looks pretty fast.
I wrestled but it was so long ago. It never went to the ground elsewhere for me. But, I think with the advent of UFC we have seen and will continue to see that happen on the streets. People mimic what they see on tv. Or youtube nowadays Some will and wrongly so, believe some guy cant pick some of that stuff up through watching and not worry about it.

If I got taken down by anyone like that. My money is on that guy! If the guy is as big as I think and as strong as that other poster ( sorry I sometimes have trouble with names at first.) in the Bawangs thread with the huge weight for reps bench. My money is on that guy even if he knows next to nothing. I know and understand my limits now.

[Brat]

It was a long time ago. I was 32 my last time and I'm glad I changed.

One thing that is glaringly apparent to me that can be an advantage is on the ground the action slows. Unless a guy mounts and pounds. That looks pretty fast.
I wrestled but it was so long ago. It never went to the ground elsewhere for me. But, I think with the advent of UFC we have seen and will continue to see that happen on the streets. People mimic what they see on tv. Or youtube nowadays Some will and wrongly so, believe some guy cant pick some of that stuff up through watching and not worry about it.

If I got taken down by anyone like that. My money is on that guy! If the guy is as big as I think and as strong as that other poster ( sorry I sometimes have trouble with names at first.) in the Bawangs thread with the huge weight for reps bench. My money is on that guy even if he knows next to nothing. I know and understand my limits now.

The ground is always an option and if you're dealing with an especially big dude it might be the only way to beat him. Unless they've had some wrestling training of some sort most big guys lose it on the ground. At least that has been my experience. You are right people can pick up ground fighting moves from videos and put them to use. Before I took Judo at college I bought the whole set of Marco Ruas Panther tapes. That is the only set of tapes that I pretty much worked the whole way through. Well some of the stuff like the striking tape (which was some pretty basic Muay Thai) I didn't. I have to say that it was some pretty effective street grappling. Marco had some training in Greco Roman wrestling so much of it was right up my alley. I actually used a couple of his moves to take down and subdue that azzwad manager at T.G.I. Fridays but that guy was a rube.

You've gotta have some good takedown skills to get them down because they've got reach and if you're not fast enough they can end up on top of you and then you'll be doing some Royce Gracie on the pavement with a gigantic dude on top. Not a position I would want to be in. Yeah after the UFCs it was common to see guys at parties doing the whole BJJ thing. But even with practice there's lots of sh it they won't know unless they've had some proper grappling training.

[boxerbilly]

No one wants to get thrown onto the ground by a Greco Roman wrestler. It might kill you.

Brat, maybe we should continue this discussion in a more appropriate sub- forum? This is a kung fu one. And we have swayed off the topic perhaps to much? I have noticed Gene is very organized in his forum. I like a mess. I can find things easy that way. But, it is his house.

[B.Tunks]

10 Oz gloves are big and fluffy and you can get fouled in Muay Thai from kneeing the 'legs around the knee'. Righty-o... Thought you trained and fought in Thailand Brat? (stadiums, no less) Or am I mixing you up with the other dude? because it seems like you two are the same person talking back and forth to himself. Go on with your mid-90s bad self though. Mildly entertaining.

[Frost]

10 Oz gloves are big and fluffy and you can get fouled in Muay Thai from kneeing the 'legs around the knee'. Righty-o... Thought you trained and fought in Thailand Brat? (stadiums, no less) Or am I mixing you up with the other dude? because it seems like you two are the same person talking back and forth to himself. Go on with your mid-90s bad self though. Mildly entertaining.

lol i did wonder too, i miss trolls like this, I miss knifefighter calling them on their bull more though :rolleyes:

[Brat]

10 Oz gloves are big and fluffy and you can get fouled in Muay Thai from kneeing the 'legs around the knee'. Righty-o... Thought you trained and fought in Thailand Brat? (stadiums, no less) Or am I mixing you up with the other dude? because it seems like you two are the same person talking back and forth to himself. Go on with your mid-90s bad self though. Mildly entertaining.

!0 oz gloves will negate the blow of a framing hammer so yes, in that regard I would consider them big and fluffy. Then again we are scuffling over semantics. Yep, I trained at Muay Thai Institute which sits at the back of Rangsit stadium (Google it). From 2007-2010 I trained going through the Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Professional, and instructor I, and II. I fought 3 times at Rangsit Stadium, two at Lumpini, and once in Phuket. My record is 4 and 2. No knockouts. And yes I got fouled for kneeing some dude excessively in the knees. Of course that could have been the particular referee but they've been known to try and sway the fight depending on who's betting on it. I only fought with other foreigners I never fought a Thai professionally. So I'd Like to hear your rebuff to that.

As for the poster known as "Frost" ....."Oh knifefighter! Oh Knifefighter! Whither thou so goest Knifefighter now that thou hast been banned from the Kung Fu forums?!" Well ol' Knifefighter (AKA Dale Franks) I will admit is a legitimate Black belt in BJJ. But he is also a guy with a serious case of little man syndrome and probably a personality disorder to boot seeing how despite his obvious qualifications he spent the better part of a decade trolling a Kung Fu forum. Beloved of trolls like rolls and ralek alike, Dale Franks spent most of his time when he was not training under Caique (spelling?) trying to "out" faceless wanks on this forum and others who had anything cross to say about his beloved BJJ. Oh and by the way didn't Franks' MMA carreer kind of end when he was slapped down by Tim Cartmell, a mostly traditional martial artist (although trainedin BJJ)? I could be wrong on that last one but I seemed to remember he did fight that guy or someone else and lost.

No Frost let me tell you what ol Dale would probably do. He would probably call up Rangsit Stadium and claim to be an Interpol agent and try to get my personal information (Sound familiar?)so he and his goon squad (consisting of posters half of which were probably him signing on with an alternate tag) could hee hee and haw haw all day and pat themselves on the back for besting someone at internet fu. I do recall one occasion where another poster who was supposed to be some BJJ Lord claimed to have went to one of Dale's fights and met him and he described him as something like " A bodybuilder of Herculean build." Shortly thereafter Dale posted a picture of himself showing his "buffness". Unfortunately a couple years later it was discovered that the pic in question was taken about the same time the US hostages were released from Tehran. In fact Dale Franks was in reality a spindly little old man. So the "esteemed" poster in general was a F###### liar because if in fact he had seen Dale at the event, he would have seen the spindly little old man not a bodybuilder of herculean build. And Dale didn't rebuff these assertions but by posting the 30+ year old pic just purported the myth making him a fraud.


Now as I stated, Dale is a legitimate martial artist as am I and many others on this site. But why he would spend so much of his time preoccupied with what some faceless jock on an internet forum thinks leads me to believe he has issues. I once had a roundabout with Dale and to be honest I just wish he would continue to train in BJJ, lose fights, and generally wank off. Could Dale beat me in a BJJ match? Probably so since his experience exceeds mine just like I could probably f### him up in Muay Thai respectively. What does all that prove? Nothing! We are both old men (he got some on me there though) and he's not Renner Gracie and I'm not Cung Lee.

Oh and if you're really still hot over Dale I hear he still wanks off over at Sherdog and occasionally the underground (if it's still called that). You can go and tell him I badmouthed him and I could honestly care less. If Dale wants a piece of this equally insignificant person he can pull out his wallet and come to see me. I will gladly get it on with him in the parking lot outside my cheap apartment. Then he could either get on his soapbox over at sherdog or quietly disappear depending on the outcome. I could really care less either way.

[Brat]

No one wants to get thrown onto the ground by a Greco Roman wrestler. It might kill you.

Brat, maybe we should continue this discussion in a more appropriate sub- forum? This is a kung fu one. And we have swayed off the topic perhaps to much? I have noticed Gene is very organized in his forum. I like a mess. I can find things easy that way. But, it is his house.


I agree. I better quit before I get challenged to a grudge match and then accused of wimping out because I didn't have the funds to travel 2500 miles to show.

[sanjuro_ronin]

10 Oz gloves are big and fluffy and you can get fouled in Muay Thai from kneeing the 'legs around the knee'. Righty-o... Thought you trained and fought in Thailand Brat? (stadiums, no less) Or am I mixing you up with the other dude? because it seems like you two are the same person talking back and forth to himself. Go on with your mid-90s bad self though. Mildly entertaining.

I think you mean 16OZ gloves, not 10.
Not sure what MT fights you may have had and where BUT I never recall a foul being called for kneeing the legs in any MT match I have seen or been involved in.
Care to state what MT federation has that rule? was this an amateur match perhaps?
EX:
http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/RulesMT.htm

All Knee Targets shall be determined during event matchmaking with each fighter of each fight and the event matchmaker.
Please CONFIRM with the Event Matchmaker & The IKF Event Representative what will be ALLOWED in your bout.
REGULAR EVENTS
In FULL Muay Thai, knees ARE ALLOWED to the Head, the Body and Legs.
MODIFIED MUAY THAI (Limited Knee Targets): Click HERE

AMATEUR TOURNAMENT COMPETITION
Please refer to Tournament Rules for each Tournament. Some (IKF World Classic) only allow knees to the body and legs below the shoulder line but NOT to the Head. While others (Such as the IKF West Coast Classic) have an actual FULL Muay Thai rules Division.

PRO EVENTS
Knees are allowed to the Body, Legs and the Head.
MODIFIED MUAY THAI (Limited Knee Targets): Click HERE


The limited knee targets mentioned are NO knees to the HEAD by the way.

[Brat]

I think you mean 16OZ gloves, not 10.
Not sure what MT fights you may have had and where BUT I never recall a foul being called for kneeing the legs in any MT match I have seen or been involved in.
Care to state what MT federation has that rule? was this an amateur match perhaps?
EX:
http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/RulesMT.htm

All Knee Targets shall be determined during event matchmaking with each fighter of each fight and the event matchmaker.
Please CONFIRM with the Event Matchmaker & The IKF Event Representative what will be ALLOWED in your bout.
REGULAR EVENTS
In FULL Muay Thai, knees ARE ALLOWED to the Head, the Body and Legs.
MODIFIED MUAY THAI (Limited Knee Targets): Click HERE

AMATEUR TOURNAMENT COMPETITION
Please refer to Tournament Rules for each Tournament. Some (IKF World Classic) only allow knees to the body and legs below the shoulder line but NOT to the Head. While others (Such as the IKF West Coast Classic) have an actual FULL Muay Thai rules Division.

PRO EVENTS
Knees are allowed to the Body, Legs and the Head.
MODIFIED MUAY THAI (Limited Knee Targets): Click HERE


The limited knee targets mentioned are NO knees to the HEAD by the way.

Three of my matches were professional. I had to win two pro matches to get my professional certificate. I won two lost one in between. The match where I got fouled was an amateur match at Lumpini stadium. Despite my time training in Bangkok with the language barrier and the rules an all I was often playing it by ear. I know nothing of the way matches go in the US. I have never fought here. Also I cared little for a career in MT as a boxer. I just wanted the certs.

[David Jamieson]

Let's not spin out and twirl into bagging and bragging modes here eh?

Ok, bragging is ok if you got the rights, but bagging on others?
Don't do that. They aren't here and if they were it would just be a bunch of deleted threads. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Three of my matches were professional. I had to win two pro matches to get my professional certificate. I won two lost one in between. The match where I got fouled was an amateur match at Lumpini stadium. Despite my time training in Bangkok with the language barrier and the rules an all I was often playing it by ear. I know nothing of the way matches go in the US. I have never fought here. Also I cared little for a career in MT as a boxer. I just wanted the certs.

Hmmm, even the amateurs don't have that as fouls in Thailand:
http://www.ifmamuaythai.org/technical-reference/muaythai-rules/18-fouls/

I think you got played dude.

[Brat]

Hmmm, even the amateurs don't have that as fouls in Thailand:
http://www.ifmamuaythai.org/technical-reference/muaythai-rules/18-fouls/

I think you got played dude.

Quite possible. Like I said that match was just me against some guy from Brussels. Lots of **** goes on on Thailand. For example a guy from the south of Thailand with dark skin pretty much has to knock out a dude from Bangkok or they'll decide against him. It ain't the most honest place on earth. And in the end I would have won about 300 baht for the match aside from what I was betting on myself. And no I didn't train at Fairtex. I worked in Bangkok and got paid local wages so Fairtex is best left to people like Ozzie Osbourne's son who can afford it. Actually the last guy I fought at Rangsit Stadium to get my professional cert from The World Muay Thai Council was Fairtex. Our guys beat them and vice versa all the time. I lived in Thailand for 4 years and trained off and on for three of them and i still have wankers telling me I am full of it. If y'all (not speaking of you sanjuro) spent as much time building on your own credibility instead of trying to disprove someone else's then you'd be regarded as grandmasters in your own respect. Now this washed up guy is gonna take a nap.

[David Jamieson]

Our guys beat them and vice versa all the time. I lived in Thailand for 4 years and trained off and on for three of them and i still have wankers telling me I am full of it. If y'all (not speaking of you sanjuro) spent as much time building on your own credibility instead of trying to disprove someone else's then you'd be regarded as grandmasters in your own respect. Now this washed up guy is gonna take a nap.

Bottom line, no one actually cares unless you are actually a celebrity fighter. lol

[B.Tunks]

I think you mean 16OZ gloves, not 10.
Not sure what MT fights you may have had and where BUT I never recall a foul being called for kneeing the legs in any MT match I have seen or been involved in.
Care to state what MT federation has that rule? was this an amateur match perhaps?
EX:
http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/RulesMT.htm

All Knee Targets shall be determined during event matchmaking with each fighter of each fight and the event matchmaker.
Please CONFIRM with the Event Matchmaker & The IKF Event Representative what will be ALLOWED in your bout.
REGULAR EVENTS
In FULL Muay Thai, knees ARE ALLOWED to the Head, the Body and Legs.
MODIFIED MUAY THAI (Limited Knee Targets): Click HERE

AMATEUR TOURNAMENT COMPETITION
Please refer to Tournament Rules for each Tournament. Some (IKF World Classic) only allow knees to the body and legs below the shoulder line but NOT to the Head. While others (Such as the IKF West Coast Classic) have an actual FULL Muay Thai rules Division.

PRO EVENTS
Knees are allowed to the Body, Legs and the Head.
MODIFIED MUAY THAI (Limited Knee Targets): Click HERE


The limited knee targets mentioned are NO knees to the HEAD by the way.

Thanks Sanjuro. In case there's any confusion - I was quoting Brat with that first sentence but couldn't use quote function at the time. 10 OZ comment was taking the p1ss (in my opinion 16 OZ even need to be respected). I agree regarding bullsh1t rules. I'm a certified WMC and IFMA Muay Thai judge and referee and its the first I've heard of it. In Thailand they don't even really foul groin kicks, let alone knees to any part of the legs.

BT

[B.Tunks]

Yo, B - pretty sure you never fought at Lumpinee. I know pros living and fighting there for years who are yet to get on a Lumpinee show. But anyway...

[Frost]

Yo, B - pretty sure you never fought at Lumpinee. I know pros living and fighting there for years who are yet to get on a Lumpinee show. But anyway...

You mean you find his story a little hard to believe, say it isn't so :eek:

[boxerbilly]

Well I guess you should do your best to answer that Brat.

[Brat]

Well I guess you should do your best to answer that Brat.

Ok I will answer it. Did I say I fought at Lumpinee Stadium? There are also a few Muay Thai training centers there and the guys have the opportunity to compete even stepping in the ring without any experience.The match was actually an opener to a bigger fight in a ring in some food court/bar. It's right in the shadow of that big azz Ferris wheel. I needed to be in 5 fights before I cold take the assist instructor course. Lots of those fight venues around Thailand and if you've been there you have seen them. Congrats on all your certifications. You've gone much further than me. I honestly don't know what to do other than than dig out my certs and post them on here but what would be the point? You guys just want to hoo and haw. So I say let you all have your fun. My creds are impeccable and unlike our old "friend" Dale Franks who at least one person seems to be so teary eyed about, I really could care less what you all think. I came on here originally to see if anyone had some old VHS vids that I was seeking as part of an old hobby. I am not going to show up to fight somebody and my video camera is broken so no youtube vids. I am out of a job. **** economy. So guys I will spare you some of the fun. Yes I will decline any challenge for me to "prove" myself. Therefore by the Marquee of Internetbury rules I have thus admitted that I am a wuss. I could never beat any of you in chess let alone fighting in any form. My reluctance to show proves my cowardice and invites me to accept all the scorn and ridicule of the Kung Fu forums. I rest my case but again I guess I have none.

I will stop by to check any PMs just in case anyone comes along some of the vids I was looking for so please drop me a line And billy, I am still on the trail of that one you're after. I won't be back to this thread or the forums so feel free to have all the fun you want with this. Also if anyone wants to persist in this, Billy has my personal info and if you want to push hard enough and travel to where I live I will gladly mix it up with you. I'll gladly mix it up with anybody regardless of whether I might win or lose if that's what floats your boat. But you're gonna have to pay for it. I'm broke. I have been bested by the guys at the Kung Fu forums. Goodbye all.

[boxerbilly]

Thanks for clarifying Brat. It was of no concern to me. I hope you choose to stick around. At least long enough for me to give you a parting gift. So sign in and check your pm later today. Ill do my best to help you today.

I have no interest in sharing your personal information with anyone and will never do so. That's up to you buddy to send that to those you want to. I have to decline that request. Sorry.

[Jimbo]

Sorry to hear you're going, Brat. I rather enjoy your writing style.

[Brat]

Sorry to hear you're going, Brat. I rather enjoy your writing style.

Oh I might lurk around. I often say things in the heat of the moment and then change my mind. I just kind of get sick of being asked to prove myself continuously. This is the internet for Pete's sake. I take what people tell me at face value. If you've been training in BJJ, Shaolin Kung Fu, Judo for 10+ years then hey, I cant prove it wrong one way or another. Unless it's BJJ or Judo If you trained in the States I can't relate much because most of my training has been overseas. And there is a difference even in Muay Thai as was admitted even by the professional jocks who trained at our gym (as far as the training goes) again I really don't know because I have never been to a MT event in the West. I worked as a school teacher for 8 years 4 in South Korea and 4 in Thailand. I jumped back and forth 1 year in one 2 in the other and so forth. In all I've trained in about 15 martial arts in the past 30 years. Some for a few months and a few longer.

So I'll open myself up for scrutiny.

My current quals are that I am a 1'st Dan in Hapkido with the International Hapkido Federation.
I also won a gold medal at the 2008 World Hapkido Championship in Yong in South Korea which was held at the National Police Academy. I was a yellow belt at the time and I had to beat two black belts to get it. I do have pictures of that. As far as i know I was the only foreigner to medal that year though there could have been a couple at the tail end as my teacher and I took off before all the medals were distributed.

I also have the aforementioned Muay Thai certs. Though I really don't care much for Muay Thai I just wanted the certs in case I ever wanted to teach MA since everyone holds MT in high esteem.

My Xingyi and 7 star were pretty much private lessons so no certs.

I am a brown belt in Judo USJA and I am a Blue Belt in BJJ.

I am trying to start a local martial arts school were I live but I am probably going to have to do it from the health aspect since a friend of mine and former teacher in Shaolin tried to start his own school and few people showed interest. I'll be getting a blog up where I will be demonstrating some Xingyi and 7 star forms to advertize my school and so that people can try it out on their own and see if they like it. And I'll tell some more stories as I have quite a few.

[boxerbilly]

Teach kids. Make bank , Bro !

[Brat]

Teach kids. Make bank , Bro !


Getting kids into Xingyi and Mantis might be tough. I was thinking about going the women route with the Xingyi like at yoga places as it's a feeling thing that you can get results right off the bat. Kids and Muay Thai? Not much of a market here. They tend to go to Tae Kwon do. But we'll see.

[boxerbilly]

Getting kids into Xingyi and Mantis might be tough. I was thinking about going the women route with the Xingyi like at yoga places as it's a feeling thing that you can get results right off the bat. Kids and Muat Thai? Not much of a market here. They tend to go to Tae Kwon do. But we'll see.

There is a Mantis school where I live that seems to do very well with kids. Or teach TKD. Start with teaching out of a high school gym for cheap in the off hours. They will tell you the up front cost or split. Some will even let you cancel should you not get enough students to pay for the gym time. Im sure it is fairly cheap.

[Brat]

There is a Mantis school where I live that seems to do very well with kids. Or teach TKD. Start with teaching out of a high school gym for cheap in the off hours. They will tell you the up front cost or split. Some will even let you cancel should you not get enough students to pay for the gym time. Im sure it is fairly cheap.

Thanks billy I'm looking for any ideas.

[mig]

Thanks billy I'm looking for any ideas.

Wasn't this thread about TC? Just watched some brawls, pranks turned bad over YouTube and finally we can see how some reality facts can show that all that speed, mocking real fight may no work at all in real life threatening situations. It is incredible to see demos that don't apply in real life street fight situations and people still believe in all those fast moves. Not saying some are efficient but come on look now video taped situations in real life and one realizes what works depending of the situation, individuals, real stuff.

[boxerbilly]

Hi Mig.

If you are looking at it in the context of Tommy fighting a fair fight against lets say Bas Rutten ( I admit I think they guy is a great fighter, nice person and very giving) then Tommy does not stand a chance in hell. If you look at it as, Hit and Run , and I mean "run" as in run away. Tommy has that down well. I guess it all comes down to objective and environment.

I'm sure there is not a soul among us that did not wish we had his speed and control.

[Brat]

Wasn't this thread about TC? Just watched some brawls, pranks turned bad over YouTube and finally we can see how some reality facts can show that all that speed, mocking real fight may no work at all in real life threatening situations. It is incredible to see demos that don't apply in real life street fight situations and people still believe in all those fast moves. Not saying some are efficient but come on look now video taped situations in real life and one realizes what works depending of the situation, individuals, real stuff.


One of the problems with martial artists (especially in the West) in my experience is that they approach the specter of real life fighting with a "I'm gonna kick your ass" mentality, when the focus should be a survival mentality. I have sparred countless times over the past 30 years and never once in a real encounter (in retrospect) have I ever felt that it helped me. The only thing that I can honestly say that helped me is being beat on for real and to be frank, losing more often than winning. Hollywood has greatly affected the way we view things. Despite the fact that in real encounters the moves that have gotten me out of trouble have been pretty boring, ugly, and uncomplicated, I still like to practice flashy ones.

In real life we are accosted when we are unprepared. Our reptilian brains take over and flood our system with hormones and adrenaline making it hard for us to pull off those complicated, choreographed moves. That's why all that technical grappling goes to **** in real life and youtube demos even with experienced guys end up looking rough.

[B.Tunks]

You mean you find his story a little hard to believe, say it isn't so :eek:
Only slightly ;)

[Brat]

Only slightly ;)

Can't let this one die huh Tunks? Listen, I'll take your word for it that you say you are and that is slightly more courtesy than you have been willing to extend to me. But if in fact you are who you say you are then you are about 2 or more levels above me in the grand scheme of things the way the WMTC figures things. So you've got some head knowledge above me? Big F###### deal. We've been through the same training and I'll wager that I can kick as hard as you. But go on with your little party. You've got one supporter at least.

[Frost]

Can't let this one die huh Tunks? Listen, I'll take your word for it that you say you are and that is slightly more courtesy than you have been willing to extend to me. But if in fact you are who you say you are then you are about 2 or more levels above me in the grand scheme of things the way the WMTC figures things. So you've got some head knowledge above me? Big F###### deal. We've been through the same training and I'll wager that I can kick as hard as you. But go on with your little party. You've got one supporter at least.

Didn't you throw your toys out the pram a while ago and threaten to leave, did your fan boy talk you into staying lol

B trunks has posted clips of himself and his guys training so we give credit to what he says, anyone who has competed or trained in a good Thai or MMA gym can understand his posts easily enough and find them believable the same cant be said of yours

[boxerbilly]

Didn't you throw your toys out the pram a while ago and threaten to leave, did your fan boy talk you into staying lol

B trunks has posted clips of himself and his guys training so we give credit to what he says, anyone who has competed or trained in a good Thai or MMA gym can understand his posts easily enough and find them believable the same cant be said of yours

Am I a fan boy or is it I am not an a**hole and really don't care either way? But you have fun with it!

[Charles S]

There's no training that will enable you to defend a sucker punch. The best fighter in the world can get punched in the back of the head by anyone when his back is turned and he's talking to someone else. The best chance of surviving a sucker punch is to have done enough real sparring, having been hit enough, that you can immediately recover and compose yourself after being rocked. Assuming the punch doesn't knock you out.....
Also, sucker punches can come from in front of you.
Someone is arguing with you, and decide to swing. Sucker punch.
I have my hands up saying I don't want trouble, then decide when I've had enough, sucker punch.
My buddy says "Hey, excuse me" to the other guy, I sucker punch.
I am looking (hunting) for somebody, I find them, sucker punch. Also fifty other situations.
I agree that having your bell rung, solar plexus thumped, testicles slapped all keep the shock and fear from causing you to make further mistakes the first couple times it happens. Like you say, unless you get shut off, it gives you time to adjust and recover.
But what's with the defensive mindset?
In my opinion, the best defense to being sucker punched is not being the sucker.

[Kellen Bassette]

Also, sucker punches can come from in front of you.
Someone is arguing with you, and decide to swing. Sucker punch.
I have my hands up saying I don't want trouble, then decide when I've had enough, sucker punch.
My buddy says "Hey, excuse me" to the other guy, I sucker punch.
I am looking (hunting) for somebody, I find them, sucker punch. Also fifty other situations.
I agree that having your bell rung, solar plexus thumped, testicles slapped all keep the shock and fear from causing you to make further mistakes the first couple times it happens. Like you say, unless you get shut off, it gives you time to adjust and recover.
But what's with the defensive mindset?
In my opinion, the best defense to being sucker punched is not being the sucker.

What your describing is a very common tactic on "da streetz" I didn't include it as sucker punching, because you should, by that time, be well aware of the possibility. If it's come to someone in your face arguing or your saying, "I don't want to fight," you ought to know there's a very good chance the fight is starting. The look away then swing while talking to someone or hitting them when they are distracted by someone else are probably the most common ways to start a fight. I agree with you about not being the sucker. I don't believe in a self defense mind set at all. If he is confrontational and close enough to touch you, your best bet is to hit him first.
I understand you, and other people, calling this "sucker punching," but the sucker should have known it was coming.

Hunting for someone would be an exception.....that could be very difficult to foresee.

[B.Tunks]

Can't let this one die huh Tunks? Listen, I'll take your word for it that you say you are and that is slightly more courtesy than you have been willing to extend to me. But if in fact you are who you say you are then you are about 2 or more levels above me in the grand scheme of things the way the WMTC figures things. So you've got some head knowledge above me? Big F###### deal. We've been through the same training and I'll wager that I can kick as hard as you. But go on with your little party. You've got one supporter at least.

Take it easy there Dragon Cho! Keep the stories coming. I for one am entertained.

BT

[bawang]

Sorry to hear you're going, Brat. I rather enjoy your writing style.

r u fukin kidding me bro lol

dudes story is more convoluted than hindu mythology

[bawang]

What your describing is a very common tactic on "da streetz" I didn't include it as sucker punching, because you should, by that time, be well aware of the possibility. If it's come to someone in your face arguing or your saying, "I don't want to fight," you ought to know there's a very good chance the fight is starting. The look away then swing while talking to someone or hitting them when they are distracted by someone else are probably the most common ways to start a fight. I agree with you about not being the sucker. I don't believe in a self defense mind set at all. If he is confrontational and close enough to touch you, your best bet is to hit him first.
I understand you, and other people, calling this "sucker punching," but the sucker should have known it was coming.

Hunting for someone would be an exception.....that could be very difficult to foresee.

90% of northern kung fu form begins with a sucker punch. in modern times its viewed as "dishonorable" but sucker punching was treated like sword drawing, is a skill

[boxerbilly]

r u fukin kidding me bro lol

dudes story is more convoluted than hindu mythology

Who really cares either way? He is a good guy.

[boxerbilly]

90% of northern kung fu form begins with a sucker punch. in modern times its viewed as "dishonorable" but sucker punching was treated like sword drawing, is a skill

I AGREE ! Nice post!

[bawang]

Who really cares either way? He is a good guy.

so as long as i be polite and talk nice i can spew entire thesis disseration worth of fantasical lies and delusions

ok

when you claim you have credentials of international assassin and trained like movie hero, give irl info or gtfo

[boxerbilly]

LOL. What's the matter. You did not like the fun?

Do whatever. I really don't care. LOL.

[boxerbilly]

http://www.eventfinder.co.nz/2012/the-fighter-international-boxing-muay-thai-event/auckland/kohimarama

[Jimbo]

r u fukin kidding me bro lol

dudes story is more convoluted than hindu mythology

I have no idea if his stories are true or not, but I found his writing style entertaining.

[David Jamieson]

Let's chill on the gripe.
:)
Thanks

[bawang]

Let's chill on the gripe.
:)
Thanks

chilling gripe...please wait

gripe 50% chilled

gripe has been chilled

[David Jamieson]

chilling gripe...please wait

gripe 50% chilled

gripe has been chilled

////

////////

/////////////// *

! :p

[Kellen Bassette]

90% of northern kung fu form begins with a sucker punch. in modern times its viewed as "dishonorable" but sucker punching was treated like sword drawing, is a skill

For sure...when I started Karate, I was told all the kata start with a block because we never initiate the fight. When I began Kung Fun, I noticed most northern forms begin with an attack. It's simply a better strategy to hit first.

[Jimbo]

90% of northern kung fu form begins with a sucker punch. in modern times its viewed as "dishonorable" but sucker punching was treated like sword drawing, is a skill

Good point.

I immediately noticed that back when I trained Long Fist and Mantis, which contrasted with the karate I had done previously. There are also some CLF forms that begin with punches/strikes.

[Charles S]

90% of northern kung fu form begins with a sucker punch. in modern times its viewed as "dishonorable" but sucker punching was treated like sword drawing, is a skill
It is when the boys and I do it ;)