Bas Rutten demonstrating a Choy Lee Fut Sow Choy technique!!!!

[hskwarrior]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=824830577587309&pnref=story

[Jimbo]

Yep, that's a sow choy alright! I wonder if Bas is even aware that it's identical to the CLF punch or not.

[boxerbilly]

I like Bas Rutten.

That's CLF knockout shot? I mean one of their big guns? It is what possibly gives the wing chun guard trouble? I had considered swings in another thread.

Aikijujitsu has similar ideas of striking with the forearm.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick...

I have found virtually all the same techniques in all the styles I have trained in.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like Bas Rutten.

That's CLF knockout shot? I mean one of their big guns? It is what possibly gives the wing chun guard trouble? I had considered swings in another thread.

Aikijujitsu has similar ideas of striking with the forearm.

Irimi nage in aikijutsu/aikido

[hskwarrior]

That's CLF knockout shot? I mean one of their big guns? It is what possibly gives the wing chun guard trouble? I had considered swings in another thread.


that's one of CLF's bread and butter techniques. Even though its our sow choy, he doesn't put the body mechanics into it the way we do. everybody swears they can deal with the sow choy until they get hit with a good one.

Still, that is only ONE single use for that type of swing. We have a few more things in regarding to the usage of it.

Don't ever under estatimate the sow choy.

[boxerbilly]

A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick...

I have found virtually all the same techniques in all the styles I have trained in.

I agree. It becomes what they consider main techniques that receive the attention based on their strategy. That is a nice shot Bas shows. It was the only upper body strike I could get nice bag fold on. It digs. I never have ever used anything like that on anyone. It can cause should issues.

[hskwarrior]

It is what possibly gives the wing chun guard trouble?

What Iron shins is to Muay Thai, Iron forearms is to Choy Lee Fut. yes we train to smash that guard

[boxerbilly]

that's one of CLF's bread and butter techniques. Even though its our sow choy, he doesn't put the body mechanics into it the way we do. everybody swears they can deal with the sow choy until they get hit with a good one.

Still, that is only ONE single use for that type of swing. We have a few more things in regarding to the usage of it.

Don't ever under estatimate the sow choy.


Thanks. Our posts most have came through at around the same time. I missed it. BOMBS, get out of the way or get crushed. For me it is similar to a overhand.
Still for myself, I worry I could land it against a guy that really understands that guard as some of those clips show. That's another way to potentially stop a shot similar. Post a jab in their face. Which seems to be a main strategy. They may choose different terms. I realize I am looking at it within a limited context. I did so purposely for myself. Not to look at every possible way to deal with it but from a boxers perspective with no gloves on. Trying to keep it stand up.

I can see how having trained forearms to smash and potentially damage their guard would be advantageous. A similar answer I thought of was attack the hand. That poses other problems for me. Perhaps stay outside and jab that hand to death? Maybe.

[boxerbilly]

I forgot to mention. I glanced at some old time boxing manuals. Similar guard. The have a block that looks strikingly similar to a karate up/over head block. It may have in fact been used more like a wedge. A little pop up and maintain and rush it in leveraging the arm up. A weakness I see with the hand out. Probably better applied as they are coming in with their strike. A counter. Draw to counter.

[boxerbilly]

Quick search I returned this. Similar as I saw in the pdf I have. They give 3 very similar examples. Dan Djurdjevic. I like his blog but sometimes forget he has it.
That just jogged a memory. He wrote an article called Claytons Gap. Anyway the link.

http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1887

Does anyone here think it could be done off the front lead and follow up with the rear? Perhaps use that " block" as a guard that he has to get around. Catch it , up it goes and ideally you have already fired a straight to the head or body. Spleen is this case.

I entertained the idea of a right catch and crossing over with a left. Problem is the bodyweight is coming in and roots quick, because of possible back foot weighting.

It's tricky limiting your style when they have so much more to answer with as a whole. As it stands, I personally do not believe I could box the way I did and get around that guard. I would have to change the approach. Trying to stay with in boxing. I keep going back to grapple. Answers in grapple. Can it be figured out just using the hands as attack weapons? Very hard.

[Kellen Bassette]

What Iron shins is to Muay Thai, Iron forearms is to Choy Lee Fut. yes we train to smash that guard

Yeah, Sanjuro mentioned everyone basically has the same techniques; and that's true, but not everyone develops them to the same extent or for the same uses.
Everyone has a jab, but few systems have developed it to the extant of western boxing. Most everyone has some version of a round kick, but the Muay Thai round kick is the most feared. Many have what we call sao choi, but perhaps not utilized to the degree that you see in Southern long arm.

[Kellen Bassette]

Incidentally, I notice Pratical Hung Kyun's page just posted this same video as the Hung Ga sao choi. :D

[boxerbilly]

Of course that **** kick. Old time boxers kicked too. I think for the most part unless you have a boxing style different than I did. Or , if you are similar in approach as I was. This guard is a terror for me if I was asked to match like these guys did and it appears all involved where willing to alter rules per fight. If I used boxing where the other guys used karate. I don't think I stand a chance. Another boxer with different approach and skills, maybe? I would have to change so much I might as well learn another style.

Thank god people don't do much of this in bars and such. I think a clear conclusion I can't make my art fit this in that situation in the videos if used exactly as I would use it against another boxer. If they drop the kicks, it would make things much easier.

Oh well, fun little "could I". I don't believe so.

That one wing chun man was a pleasure to watch.

[Kellen Bassette]

Of course that **** kick. Old time boxers kicked too. I think for the most part unless you have a boxing style different than I did. Or , if you are similar in approach as I was. This guard is a terror for me if I was asked to match like these guys did and it appears all involved where willing to alter rules per fight. If I used boxing where the other guys used karate. I don't think I stand a chance. Another boxer with different approach and skills, maybe? I would have to change so much I might as well learn another style.

Thank god people don't do much of this in bars and such. I think a clear conclusion I can't make my art fit this in that situation in the videos if used exactly as I would use it against another boxer. If they drop the kicks, it would make things much easier.

Oh well, fun little "could I". I don't believe so.

That one wing chun man was a pleasure to watch.

Not to get off subject, but your right about old time boxing. Boxing has changed a lot with different rules and gloves. I'm not a boxer per se, but I train at a boxing gym, sometimes training the boxing regimens and sparring with the boxers...I think the skill can carry over very nicely to all the other disciplines, just the stance and guard aren't well suited vs kick boxing or mma. If a boxer is willing/able to alter his fighting stance, his tools are very useful...but that's heresy to most purists....:D

[boxerbilly]

I have nothing against altering anything. I'm all for it and I certainly am glad we do have purist's so go back to for answers. I just became curious after seeing those clips again, how would I do against someone of equal skills and style as shown. Using only what I used in the ring? One could get lucky. But using the reasoning of okay, I know what I can and can not do. Against this, what are your options? I'd need to change it to much it would no longer qualify for my original idea. That is just referencing myself or perhaps someone that fought similar as I with boxing.

I was also trying to keep toughness out it as much as possible. Yes, that alters outcomes. Just my style against this. Could mine prevail. I honestly believe not.

[boxerbilly]

Sorry for any confusion. I speak far better and can convey my thoughts far better than through writing. I realize the troubles people may have reading my words.

[boxerbilly]

Blacklist and bed. See you all later. Thanks for the input.

[-N-]

A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick...

I have found virtually all the same techniques in all the styles I have trained in.

Yes. This is the Praying Mantis quan chui (huen chui) referred to in this thread:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68499-8-steps-praying-mantis-boxing-book-translation

Pretty common basic power strike.

[Jimbo]

Yeah, Sanjuro mentioned everyone basically has the same techniques; and that's true, but not everyone develops them to the same extent or for the same uses.
Everyone has a jab, but few systems have developed it to the extant of western boxing. Most everyone has some version of a round kick, but the Muay Thai round kick is the most feared. Many have what we call sao choi, but perhaps not utilized to the degree that you see in Southern long arm.

This is true.

Also, as hskwarrior mentioned, CLF has many variations on the sow choy/sao choi, as well as ways to apply it.

[hskwarrior]

yup, the sow choy isn't just used as a head shot. we will beat your arms up with it too...amongst other things

[boxerbilly]

Hskwarrior , when you attack the arms is it with the inner forearm? Or do you use the knuckles you would use to knock on a door? If you use those, I have another question, ideally from someone that would know. How well would hitting the head, ideally temple -face area. How well would they hold up? I can see bad cutting but also maybe a broken hand? Although the seem fairly tough if you don't screw up the landing.

[hskwarrior]

Hskwarrior , when you attack the arms is it with the inner forearm? Or do you use the knuckles you would use to knock on a door? If you use those, I have another question, ideally from someone that would know. How well would hitting the head, ideally temple -face area. How well would they hold up? I can see bad cutting but also maybe a broken hand? Although the seem fairly tough if you don't screw up the landing.

yeah. one of the things we do is use the sow choy to strike a sow choy or a wild overhead swing. In the case of the knuckles of the sow choy, we use the knuckles like knocking on a door for our mid range sow choy to sort of wipe your face off of your head.

to your last question, in my sifu's school we sparred without gloves and I hit my classmate with that type of sow choy and wiped from temple into the side of his nose...split his face open and he dropped like a sack of potato's screaming "my eye, where's my eye?" He literally thought i knocked his eye out of his head.

however, in another sparring match with a different classmate I throw a sow choy at his head and he dropped his head. that was when i tried to pump its breaks so in mid stream of my strike i turned my hand a bit and the second knuckle bone at the base of my thumb hit the top of his head. it took more than a few months to heal. not fun. knowing that, i tend to be more choosey when throwing my sow choy now.

[-N-]

Hskwarrior , when you attack the arms is it with the inner forearm? Or do you use the knuckles you would use to knock on a door? If you use those, I have another question, ideally from someone that would know. How well would hitting the head, ideally temple -face area. How well would they hold up? I can see bad cutting but also maybe a broken hand? Although the seem fairly tough if you don't screw up the landing.

For Mantis, it is the two big knuckles of the fist, or else the forearm. I prefer forearm due to closer range for follow up take downs, and ability to deliver more force with less chance of hand injury.

[boxerbilly]

yeah. one of the things we do is use the sow choy to strike a sow choy or a wild overhead swing. In the case of the knuckles of the sow choy, we use the knuckles like knocking on a door for our mid range sow choy to sort of wipe your face off of your head.

to your last question, in my sifu's school we sparred without gloves and I hit my classmate with that type of sow choy and wiped from temple into the side of his nose...split his face open and he dropped like a sack of potato's screaming "my eye, where's my eye?" He literally thought i knocked his eye out of his head.

however, in another sparring match with a different classmate I throw a sow choy at his head and he dropped his head. that was when i tried to pump its breaks so in mid stream of my strike i turned my hand a bit and the second knuckle bone at the base of my thumb hit the top of his head. it took more than a few months to heal. not fun. knowing that, i tend to be more choosey when throwing my sow choy now.

Thank you.

[hskwarrior]

all good..

[Subitai]

haha, I remember this vid from awhile back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSc485cKbMg&t=1m12s


At first a few people said how sloppy they thought it was. Heh..


I also remember saying, "If you watch only the last 20 seconds" , "that's how fighting is" .


The red shirt dude threw the same sao choi 3x...Tried once, tried again...then BANG! Whats wrong with that? Nothing!

It's a tired old rant for me,
But I get sick of people putting unfair standards on Kung Fu (or any traditional art). That being that if you don't Kung Fu your opponent in 5 secs...you or your art must suck.

>>>>> Where as a boxer can take his time and set his opponent up for multiple rounds (if need be), trying combinations over and over again until he finally succeeds. The end result is the viewers saying: "What a good boxer he is".

[hskwarrior]

haha, I remember this vid from awhile back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSc485cKbMg&t=1m12s


At first a few people said how sloppy they thought it was. Heh..


I also remember saying, "If you watch only the last 20 seconds" , "that's how fighting is" .


The red shirt dude threw the same sao choi 3x...Tried once, tried again...then BANG! Whats wrong with that? Nothing!

It's a tired old rant for me,
But I get sick of people putting unfair standards on Kung Fu (or any traditional art). That being that if you don't Kung Fu your opponent in 5 secs...you or your art must suck.

>>>>> Where as a boxer can take his time and set his opponent up for multiple rounds (if need be), trying combinations over and over again until he finally succeeds. The end result is the viewers saying: "What a good boxer he is".

I feel you there bro. too many people put it on the martial art an never the individual himself. if a style was supposed to be superior, it would need someone to apply it.

[boxerbilly]

Well, I boxed and I certainly do not look down on any art or think boxing is superior. We don't all think that way. We may prefer boxing to other things. It probably just fits our mentality and maturity level better. I tend to be child like.

I posted that same video in another thread. I always was impressed. Not what I would have done but I can not say that boy did not make his art work. He was SMART. He set new ground rules. Broke the habit and people got confused. He stanced up. Fair fight time dude. If you don't get me, your fault. If I get hit now, my fault. I'm sure he would have also ended it if the other said, I no longer want to fight. Good by me. It hurts!

Thanks for the share, Subitai .

[hskwarrior]

You can see a single drill we practice for the sow choy as Bas Rutten is attempting it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJzihhefPJM

[hskwarrior]

Then in 2:26 of this clip you can see how we use the spinning backfist and the sow choy together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUMWFsuzuWo

[boxerbilly]

Yeah that would work. Or I should say, that could work. Reverse to south paw on that guy and clear with the backfist swing and BOOM. Nice. Lots of power in those long circular moves. Even if you cant get the body English. Just off the shoulder action , can be devastating.

[boxerbilly]

I can see if the WC guy was playing that kick , you just stay outside, maybe fake and crack the back of his hand until he starts pulling it away and kills his guard.

Thanks.

[hskwarrior]

definitely. feeling them is a totally different animal.

[boxerbilly]

I bet. I understand centrifugal force. When movement is a circular. Velocity squares. It hits REALLY HARD ! Double the speed and you get four times the force. Triple it and you get 9 times the force. Circular techniques is where being our fastest lies. Arrival time takes longer but the distance is further and allows for speed to pick up. I believe theoretically with in circular movement it is infinite. Of course being humans means that's not going to happen but if you want to hit you're absolute hardest that's the only way. It has to be a circle. It was through reading John McSweeney I discovered and looked into it more.

This may be an eye opening video for those that have never seen it. Look at the impact he generates. MASSIVE. They also give a rather ingenious training devise that looks a lot more shoulder friendly than a heavy bag. Looks cheap and easy for those on a budget.

Tiger Claw. I think it was 2,600lbs for a similar shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCm5WiHda-0

[boxerbilly]

You can see a single drill we practice for the sow choy as Bas Rutten is attempting it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJzihhefPJM

Just awesome power. I did not see that one as I was probably posting in this thread or in another. Thanks. Id be back in surgery for fixing my face again. I sure would not want to catch that guys shots with my catchers mitt!

[hskwarrior]

yeah he is one strong cat. he's gonna be a doctor and will not only know how to break faces, but heal them as well. haha

[boxerbilly]

AWESOME. We need more American doctors. I have nothing against those from other places. But, In the last 3 years I have had 1 that was born in America. It can be hard with communitive/visual conversation. Others gestures often differ in meaning to ours. Making understanding harder for both parties. Not a good thing when you need help.

Of course I also had a great female doctor from Sri Lanka. She was HOT Too. I saw here the most, lol. Neurologist. My head hurt a lot once I saw here.

[boxerbilly]

Obviously with the potential to create such a massive impact, can your hand withstand that? Structural integrity. Nerf balls are not very hard. Heads can be. Pretty clear some sort of IP training is needed. The possibility may exist that the palm heel or slap could withstand the force with little in the way of training. Probably help to keep your foot off the breaks a bit longer too.

[Kellen Bassette]

I've mentioned it before, but I really like the fact that gong fun teaches some practical ways to utilize haymaker type punches without over exposing yourself. After all, the haymaker is the most natural punch.

In all the Karate I've trained haymakers were never taught and considered garbage technique. Even though you'll see haymakers in boxing they are considered terrible form and coaches discourage them. MMA on the other hand, seems to be finding value in them.

[Jimbo]

Obviously with the potential to create such a massive impact, can your hand withstand that? Structural integrity. Nerf balls are not very hard. Heads can be. Pretty clear some sort of IP training is needed. The possibility may exist that the palm heel or slap could withstand the force with little in the way of training. Probably help to keep your foot off the breaks a bit longer too.

One of the ways I use a sow is landing with the palm heel. It is one of a number of variations.