Limb destruction

[stonecrusher69]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjw4iJJWLc

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its been my experience that limb destruction tends to work best off grappling/grabbing situations rather than strikes.

[boxerbilly]

Thanks for the vid. I'm boxing if we can trap your arm under our armpit. we will throw a few uppercuts. Its not meant to do anything but wrench your elbow and hopefully slow the arm down. I've personally never pulled it off.

In Kenpo. We are big on attacking the elbows off of grabs. Again, nothing I ever did outside of class.

[Frost]

Someone's got to ask, what exactly is the guy doing just standing there letting you hit his arm? you do realise he will take your head off with his other hand, he wont simply leave his arm hanging like that, and he will also, oh I don't know step and move on you on you,

[Frost]

Its been my experience that limb destruction tends to work best off grappling/grabbing situations rather than strikes.

Yep but that's because you actually sparred and found out what did and didn't work, crazy notion I know

[crazedjustice88]

I'm not a wing chun man but from the hop gar perspective, limb destruction can just be using the circular strikes or even the straight line ones and as opposed to striking an opening, just attack where there arm is and if you have enough power then you can also attack the body at the same time. My Sifu has told us just to simply throw the strikes and whatever we hit, we hit. SO yeah...

[Vajramusti]

Someone's got to ask, what exactly is the guy doing just standing there letting you hit his arm? you do realise he will take your head off with his other hand, he wont simply leave his arm hanging like that, and he will also, oh I don't know step and move on you on you,
----------------------------------------

Agree.

[stonecrusher69]

Its been my experience that limb destruction tends to work best off grappling/grabbing situations rather than strikes.

I agree that would be the best situation.

[stonecrusher69]

Someone's got to ask, what exactly is the guy doing just standing there letting you hit his arm? you do realise he will take your head off with his other hand, he wont simply leave his arm hanging like that, and he will also, oh I don't know step and move on you on you,

its a demo what don't you understand?

[Frost]

its a demo what don't you understand?

It’s a demo I know that
It’s a demo of an unrealistic technique done against an unrealistic response from a training partner who is reacting unrealistically in an unrealistic environment
The fact it’s a demonstration doesn’t excuse the above,

What about the above dont you understand?

[stonecrusher69]

It’s a demo I know that
It’s a demo of an unrealistic technique done against an unrealistic response from a training partner who is reacting unrealistically in an unrealistic environment
The fact it’s a demonstration doesn’t excuse the above,

What about the above dont you understand?

Ok Mr. Expert please show us how's it done. Make a video doing it in real time and chop your opponent throat at full power.

[Frost]

Ok Mr. Expert please show us how's it done. Make a video doing it in real time and chop your opponent throat at full power.

you cant because it doesn't work, thats my whole point

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok Mr. Expert please show us how's it done. Make a video doing it in real time and chop your opponent throat at full power.

It really sin't about that, its about one simple "mantra" that all people that demo MA moves should follow:
See it Taught, See it fought.

Now, that doesn't mean that you have to show every move in a real fight ( though it would be ideal), what it does mean is that when you demo a move it should be done realistically.

In the case of the clip above, the opponent should be resisting enough to make it realistic and the strike should be hard enough to compromise the structure of the opponent ( in the case of both attacker AND defender).
There are many ways to make it so that the defender doesn't get hurt.

The point being , why demo a technique in a way that does NOT work and that you would NOT apply???

[Matthew]

The point being , why demo a technique in a way that does NOT work and that you would NOT apply???


I guess I understand and appreciate critiquing a demo, but to expect a demo to be realistic would make it pressure testing/light sparring rather than a demo (or at least make it a live-demo of some sort).

Whenever I learned something in wrestling for instance, it's always shown on a fully complicit person and usually exaggerated in setup, similar to the OP's video. OP's video is basically showing a backwards reverse arm drag (with chop) from wrestling (on near arm, but attacking the outside rather than inside).

Here's a wrestling demo/technique practice that looks pretty much identical to OP's video (except it's a regular arm drag, rather than OP's near arm/backwards arm drag with a chop): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZEtxZz6Wg



..when you demo a move it should be done realistically.
..the opponent should be resisting enough to make it realistic and the strike should be hard enough to compromise the structure of the opponent

That's one type of demo though.. non-resistant types of demos are used in all MA I'm aware of for teaching purposes.
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Since I got that out, I totally understand the theme of what you're saying - being able to demo if you can't apply it with any efficacy in pressure-tested conditions makes it a health-practice art (not a self-defense art)..

but it's a demo...

[Frost]

I guess I understand and appreciate critiquing a demo, but to expect a demo to be realistic would make it pressure testing/light sparring rather than a demo (or at least make it a live-demo of some sort).

Whenever I learned something in wrestling for instance, it's always shown on a fully complicit person and usually exaggerated in setup, similar to the OP's video. OP's video is basically showing a backwards reverse arm drag (with chop) from wrestling (on near arm, but attacking the outside rather than inside).

Here's a wrestling demo/technique practice that looks pretty much identical to OP's video (except it's a regular arm drag, rather than OP's near arm/backwards arm drag with a chop): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZEtxZz6Wg



That's one type of demo though.. non-resistant types of demos are used in all MA I'm aware of for teaching purposes.
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Since I got that out, I totally understand the theme of what you're saying - being able to demo if you can't apply it with any efficacy in pressure-tested conditions makes it a health-practice art (not a self-defense art)..

but it's a demo...
its a poorly done demo and nothing like the wrestling clip you posted, in that clip there is momentum from both sides, and the move is done exactly how you see it performed in a wrestling match, people much you all the time in grappling and that read react response into an arm drag is seen all the time
there's two other big differences as well
1)you can post hundreds of clips of an arm drag being used in grappling from a push from your opponent so itd functional you see it taught and you see it fought
2) its a non striking environment, how many arm drags do you see in MMA? Not that many if any because since your opponent can hit and get hit he doesn't push and leave his arm out, he retracts it very quickly, the attacking posture, footwork and the way you use your arms is different in MMA than it is in wrestling, thats my main issue with the first clip, its a striking environment your opponent isnt going to block and leave his arm out there and allow you to attack it, he is going to withdraw it quickly or smack you with his other hand. thats why you cant see a clip of this type of attack anywhere in a striking environment because its unrealistic

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't confuse instructional with demo.

Instructional are done slow and with a complaint partner because you are teaching all aspects of the technique.
That is not a demo.
A demo is a demonstration of how the techniques works and looks and as such, it should be done in the most realistic way possible.

A demonstration of boxing or wrestling or any other full contact MA is done how?
Exactly.

An instructional is, of course, done differently.

Now, IF they above was an instructional, that is different BUT if it was, that is a whole other can of worms...

[Matthew]

Don't confuse instructional with demo.

Instructional are done slow and with a complaint partner because you are teaching all aspects of the technique.
That is not a demo.
A demo is a demonstration of how the techniques works and looks and as such, it should be done in the most realistic way possible.

A demonstration of boxing or wrestling or any other full contact MA is done how?
Exactly.

An instructional is, of course, done differently.

Now, IF they above was an instructional, that is different BUT if it was, that is a whole other can of worms...

I never heard a wrestling teacher say "I'm going to do an instructional now on a spladle." Nor at my first CMA school which sparred heavily, nor at the MMA school I visited a number of times my friends train at, nor anywhere else.

So however you cut it, it's just a demonstration with a compliant partner. Search youtube for any technique name and the word "Demo" and you'll see just as many if not more fully compliant situations. So I think the word has both meanings, and my experience and youtube disagree with your definition.

Here's a gracie BJJ black belt showing "demos" with a compliant partner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j28Hp0ADafM

You should probably stick to the "I don't think OP's move is effective" argument instead

[Wayfaring]

It was a nice little instructional clip. Nothing major. I would have liked to see discussion and demo about not chasing hands with limb destruction and a sense of how centerline awareness and intent will dictate the proper timeframe for that. I mean striking a wu hand that is not between you and your opponents center is probably not that great of an idea. But it was a real short clip, and I don't see an abundance of better ones up handling that, so good job stonecrusher. For sure sink that bridge on your way across.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never heard a wrestling teacher say "I'm going to do an instructional now on a spladle." Nor at my first CMA school which sparred heavily, nor at the MMA school I visited a number of times my friends train at, nor anywhere else.

So however you cut it, it's just a demonstration with a compliant partner. Search youtube for any technique name and the word "Demo" and you'll see just as many if not more fully compliant situations. So I think the word has both meanings, and my experience and youtube disagree with your definition.

Here's a gracie BJJ black belt showing "demos" with a compliant partner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j28Hp0ADafM

You should probably stick to the "I don't think OP's move is effective" argument instead

True, we do tend to use the words interchangeably, probably why the MA are in such a sorry state as they are.

Yeah, that clip sucked too.
No matter how you slice it, who does it and why, compliant demos suck.
You are, of course, free to feel otherwise.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or you can demo like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3drZ6bURUs

[Matthew]

No matter how you slice it, who does it and why, compliant demos suck.
You are, of course, free to feel otherwise.

I think it's a bit like lifting the bar, eh? You wouldn't teach a total beginner to squat 300 pounds, you would first do it with nothing to get their form right.

Or like learning words in a language. You can jump in with pimsleur method and learn whole sentences at a time, but you'll never develop mastery (a bit like a pure brawler who learns no technique could be good, but will hit a threshold).
Learning the meaning of each word (posture/technique) at a time, and sentence structures (how to put postures/techniques together coherently) is like learning from a compliant or semi-compliant "demo."

A lot of language learners know all the words/meaning involved, but when someone actually natively speaks that language, they have no idea what any of it means because they've never heard it or been to that country.

Like that, a demo can serve to familiarize with the language and form involved.

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Of course once pressure is applied, you might have a bit too much weight on the rack and squat slightly off balanced and have to get feedback to fix it. Or that pressure might be travelling to that country and talking with native speakers, you might speak horribly jumbled, but you have a foundation to build on.

Then we have demo's like OPs, which are strange sounding sentences. They seem to work when written (demoed), but we don't have evidence anyone actually speaks them (in real scenarios).


Or you can demo like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3drZ6bURUs

The irony of you posting this is manyfold.

1) Despite their full intensity, some of their moves can't be serious (e.g. guy choking from behind and she just flails her legs and he falls down). Or she knees him and he just over repeatedly falls. I feel like this demo is worse than OP's because this type of training might actually mislead someone into thinking their moves are going to work in a real environment if all their partners just buckle and don't strike back the entire time.


2) If you watch closely at this time in the video you'll see the move that OP posted (at least a better application of it) :) https://youtu.be/S3drZ6bURUs?t=1m9s

[Frost]

I think it's a bit like lifting the bar, eh? You wouldn't teach a total beginner to squat 300 pounds, you would first do it with nothing to get their form right.

Or like learning words in a language. You can jump in with pimsleur method and learn whole sentences at a time, but you'll never develop mastery (a bit like a pure brawler who learns no technique could be good, but will hit a threshold).
Learning the meaning of each word (posture/technique) at a time, and sentence structures (how to put postures/techniques together coherently) is like learning from a compliant or semi-compliant "demo."

A lot of language learners know all the words/meaning involved, but when someone actually natively speaks that language, they have no idea what any of it means because they've never heard it or been to that country.

Like that, a demo can serve to familiarize with the language and form involved.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________

Of course once pressure is applied, you might have a bit too much weight on the rack and squat slightly off balanced and have to get feedback to fix it. Or that pressure might be travelling to that country and talking with native speakers, you might speak horribly jumbled, but you have a foundation to build on.

Then we have demo's like OPs, which are strange sounding sentences. They seem to work when written (demoed), but we don't have evidence anyone actually speaks them (in real scenarios).



The irony of you posting this is manyfold.

1) Despite their full intensity, some of their moves can't be serious (e.g. guy choking from behind and she just flails her legs and he falls down). Or she knees him and he just over repeatedly falls. I feel like this demo is worse than OP's because this type of training might actually mislead someone into thinking their moves are going to work in a real environment if all their partners just buckle and don't strike back the entire time.


2) If you watch closely at this time in the video you'll see the move that OP posted (at least a better application of it) :) https://youtu.be/S3drZ6bURUs?t=1m9s

I powerlift and how we teach beginners to squat and deadlift with just the day is exactly the same way as the guys do in our gym when competing, ie it looks exactly like it does when demoing as it does in reality

[boxerbilly]

Thanks again for posting that video Stonecrusher. I was hoping it would bring discussion and argument. Nice thread.

[stonecrusher69]

you cant because it doesn't work, thats my whole point


So your the appointed expert who determines what and doesn't work...Ok thank you for clearing that up..

[-N-]

No matter how you slice it, who does it and why, compliant demos suck.


Or you can demo like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3drZ6bURUs


Despite their full intensity, some of their moves can't be serious (e.g. guy choking from behind and she just flails her legs and he falls down). Or she knees him and he just over repeatedly falls.


That might be the first Sanjuro_ronin post that I don't get.

Looked pretty compliant after each initial attack.

They demo'd force against force, and somehow the smaller person comes out on top.

She got body slammed, didn't get the wind knocked out or hit her head, and somehow gets the big guy with a loose arm bar before escaping.

Then she gets clocked across the chin, falls to the ground, the guy doesn't mount her and beat her face, and somehow she gets out.

She gets bear hugged and lifted off the ground by a guy whose arms are three times the size of hers, and she breaks his grip by flailing around.

The guy chokes her against the wall, doesn't slam her head into the wall, and lets her do a chin na escape?

[Wayfaring]

That might be the first Sanjuro_ronin post that I don't get.

Looked pretty compliant after each initial attack.

They demo'd force against force, and somehow the smaller person comes out on top.

She got body slammed, didn't get the wind knocked out or hit her head, and somehow gets the big guy with a loose arm bar before escaping.

Then she gets clocked across the chin, falls to the ground, the guy doesn't mount her and beat her face, and somehow she gets out.

She gets bear hugged and lifted off the ground by a guy whose arms are three times the size of hers, and she breaks his grip by flailing around.

The guy chokes her against the wall, doesn't slam her head into the wall, and lets her do a chin na escape?


Yeah dunno if quality of that vid makes much of a point. Krav demos I've seen like that one are a bit foom foom foom and I don't really support the pull guard, try a crappy armbar then kick a guy in the face until he submits approach. In reality that armbar attempt results in GNP loss.

the orig vid I thought was an all right basic demo thing. but maybe i'm just not in the mood to criticize some basic bridge hand skills shown in demo mode.

[Frost]

So your the appointed expert who determines what and doesn't work...Ok thank you for clearing that up..

you appointed yourself the expert when you placed the video up, if you didnt want people to comment on it you shouldn't have put it up
im saying in my experience it is a useless technique, but please prove me wrong and show the technique being used against a moving resisting opponent, a simple example of it being used anywhere would do

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you guys are perfectly fine with the demo on the OP of this thread, great.
If you don't see the difference between that clip and the one I posted of the KM demo, that's fine too.

It's ok to disagree guys, really.

No biggie.

[-N-]

Saw a difference, but didn't love either clip.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Saw a difference, but didn't love either clip.

Indeed, one of the many reasons I simply don't like demo clips at all.
Either do it or teach it, but demo?
Meh...

[Wayfaring]

If you guys are perfectly fine with the demo on the OP of this thread, great.
If you don't see the difference between that clip and the one I posted of the KM demo, that's fine too.


It's all good. There's a difference in the energy levels of the uke in the two clips. But as far as the KM being increased effectiveness, I actually thought that would build more delusion, thinking you can crappy armbar someone and kick them in the face until they tap out. I mean there is such a thing as a good armbar combined with a good technical standup, which would be the effective approach to the KM scenarios. The limb destruction scenario is just very different. Like maybe getting past a boxer good high guard. You miss that technique and you get tagged and have to recover. You miss the KM technique and you get GNP'd into oblivion. I mean there's a lot of differences in those two clips, beyond the obvious.

I mean the best way to demo I suppose is start off low key low energy like the OP clip, then progress to handling a higher level of live energy, then show it sparring or free movement application. That is a supportable approach.

The one thing I do think the KM clip shows is you have to train against high energy simulating reality. If people train just like OP clip and never step it up to that level, then hand skill would never develop. The problem I think they run into that I see is they never slow it down to make their movements efficient all the way through and end up with kind of a flailing response under pressure. That would work against an unskilled or semi-skilled aggressor but not reliably against a skilled opponent. I see plenty of clips up in self defense scenarios where a bigger person can pass guard and damage. I really would hate to see a smaller female like in the clip go for a foom foom foom crappy armbar plus kicking because she's ranked in KM and just anger a bigger opponent and get hurt.

Ha. I'm funny today. Totally rail on a KM more live energy demo and give a pass to a guy videoing a lesson to a beginner level guy in a park. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess. OP if you find someone that has chi sau'd a lot before throw up a video of a little more live action in the exchanges after the explanation. KM guys good energy but sloppy technique :cool:

[stonecrusher69]

Someone's got to ask, what exactly is the guy doing just standing there letting you hit his arm? you do realise he will take your head off with his other hand, he wont simply leave his arm hanging like that, and he will also, oh I don't know step and move on you on you,

He would hit me..he knows I will shoot him latter...lol

[stonecrusher69]

you appointed yourself the expert when you placed the video up, if you didnt want people to comment on it you shouldn't have put it up
im saying in my experience it is a useless technique, but please prove me wrong and show the technique being used against a moving resisting opponent, a simple example of it being used anywhere would do

I never said I was an expert.Making a video does not mean anyone is an expert either. But you sound like your the expert because your making a knowledge claim saying for a fact that what I'm doing is wrong. Anyway,all demo video are in a sence unrealistic because the way it's presented. I PRESENT IT in more of a teaching mode not a fight mode and mine is no different. Also, The way I applied the limb destruction does it does not mean it has to be done exactly like that. I'm only trying to get the Idea across more so then an exact way of applying it,so you can apply in many different ways.