Blocks that work and blocks that don't

[Kellen Bassette]

To my thinking there are 6 distinct methods of defense,
intercepting: (landing a more direct technique to a less direct one, i.e. jab lands before hook, front kick before round kick,)
evasion: slipping, bobbing and weaving, dodging, head movement,
soft blocking: parries, deflections, "borrowing" force,
hard blocking: force against force, striking the attack with the forearm, checking with the knee,
covering: allowing blows to glance off, or land on the guard,
absorbing: conditioning the body to be able to take a shot.

Obviously, intercepting and evasion are the ideal methods, but that can't always be accomplished in the real world.
It seems to me that in traditional martial arts, there is a big focus on what I call "soft blocking" and "hard blocking."
I want to discuss what blocking techniques actually work for you and which ones you find useless. Also, if you teach
blocks that you find useless, why?

Some of the most common blocks practiced are high, middle and low versions of the forearm block. They are fundamental
in Okinawan, Japanese, and many Chinese systems. These are hard blocks, (although many instructors will say it's soft because
you are deflecting the attack in a circular manner, experience says otherwise. You have to apply force to move a punch thrown
with real intent and your forearm will feel it.)
In many schools, the practice of standing in a line practicing these blocks in the air, or with a compliant partner punching at you,
is absolutely fundamental to the system. The question is, do you find these techniques practical at all, during hard sparring or
real fighting?

9393

In my experience the rising block, is seen very rarely against real pressure. This technique is not only found in TMAs but in old
schooling boxing manuals and Muay Thai. When applied it tends to look much more like a slightly modified boxer's cover than
the clean forearm angling over the head.

9394

The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever
work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of
your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch. It simply needs to be choreographed
in order to work. From Karate people who fight, I've heard, "We block this way for kata, but when we spar we use palm deflections."
That begs the question, why bother practicing it at all?

9395

The down block I, myself have used countless times against kicks. It does work, but I don't like it and have spent years trying to train
the reaction out of me. My problem with it is that it requires dropping your hand, leaving you exposed to an attack to the head. Also,
if a strong round kick is blocked like this, you could very well have your arm broken. I think a parry to the outside, (common MT defense to
a teep, also common TCMA technique,) is much better. With the parry you are still exposing the head, but you can turn your opponents
body away from you at an angle, making it very difficult for him to counter you. A simple knee check is better suited to the low round kick
and has the added benefit of punishing the kicker.

What are your opinions/experience with this type of blocking?

[Kellen Bassette]

We all know that palm deflections and parries can frequently be seen working in sport fighting, as well as boxing covers, shoulder rolls, and knee checks. TMAs have many more defensive elements than these techniques, what outside the realm of generic defense do you find reliable?

When I spar with MMA gloves or without gloves, I have often used a double open hand technique, often taught as a block to break an attempted grab. It looks like this, but with open hands and I grab the wrists or sleeves, if they have them.

9396

I find this most useful when sparring Kyokushin types, since they like to square up. I don't use it to block punches, but to innate a clinch, or momentarily tie up the hands of a puncher and fire a kick.

Another, not so common technique I like to block with is simply sinking the weight back, like an empty stance and dropping the elbow down, 12:6 fashion on top of a front kick or side kick. Very painful if you connect with the instep.

[Kellen Bassette]

Usually, simple is best, but we see in forms a myriad of complex techniques.

A few examples, I'm not sure of the traditional name, but I call it a crescent block, a soft block that makes a wide arc to the outside of your body, deflecting the punch at your wrist, to supposedly bring the opponents fist around and trap at your hip.

X blocks, two hands on one, often taught as a knife defense.

Reinforced blocks, again two hands on one, reportedly against a club like weapon or very powerful opponent. Seems to me far to slow to be of any value.

Butterfly palms, or roundhouse blocks (mawashi uke) from an Okinawan perspective. The basic version uses two hands to deflect one, I know there are many variations on applications to these techniques, beside the basic "block the punch." So....do you use them, if so how do you apply them to make them work?

[Kellen Bassette]

Given the wasted motion of many basic TMA blocks, and the apparently even poorer economy of motion of more complex techniques, from an arm chair perspective, it would seem the best way to improve on the success of the boxing/MT style forearm cover would be to block and strike at the same time.

It certainly makes sense when you think about it and I admit in my younger, more naive years, the simultaneous blocking/trapping while striking seen in Wing Chun demos looked amazing and ingenious to me. (This of course before I learned the dark truth about Wing Chun people.) :p

Unfortunately, I am not aware of much success with this idea in the real world. The best example, off the top of my head, where blocking and striking is routinely successful would be this glorious technique.

9397

This is pretty much standard fare in many TCMAs and, of course, boxing.

Do you successfully apply simultaneous blocks and strikes under duress? What do you use and how do you make it work?

[MightyB]

9394

The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever
work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of
your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch. It simply needs to be choreographed
in order to work. From Karate people who fight, I've heard, "We block this way for kata, but when we spar we use palm deflections."
That begs the question, why bother practicing it at all?


I think that's one of those situations where somehow the middle block got exaggerated in kata over time but probably started out looking more like this:

9399

if that's the case, then it's used all the time.

[Jimbo]

To my thinking there are 6 distinct methods of defense,
intercepting: (landing a more direct technique to a less direct one, i.e. jab lands before hook, front kick before round kick,)
evasion: slipping, bobbing and weaving, dodging, head movement,
soft blocking: parries, deflections, "borrowing" force,
hard blocking: force against force, striking the attack with the forearm, checking with the knee,
covering: allowing blows to glance off, or land on the guard,
absorbing: conditioning the body to be able to take a shot.

Obviously, intercepting and evasion are the ideal methods, but that can't always be accomplished in the real world.
It seems to me that in traditional martial arts, there is a big focus on what I call "soft blocking" and "hard blocking."
I want to discuss what blocking techniques actually work for you and which ones you find useless. Also, if you teach
blocks that you find useless, why?

Some of the most common blocks practiced are high, middle and low versions of the forearm block. They are fundamental
in Okinawan, Japanese, and many Chinese systems. These are hard blocks, (although many instructors will say it's soft because
you are deflecting the attack in a circular manner, experience says otherwise. You have to apply force to move a punch thrown
with real intent and your forearm will feel it.)
In many schools, the practice of standing in a line practicing these blocks in the air, or with a compliant partner punching at you,
is absolutely fundamental to the system. The question is, do you find these techniques practical at all, during hard sparring or
real fighting?

9393

In my experience the rising block, is seen very rarely against real pressure. This technique is not only found in TMAs but in old
schooling boxing manuals and Muay Thai. When applied it tends to look much more like a slightly modified boxer's cover than
the clean forearm angling over the head.

9394

The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever
work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of
your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch. It simply needs to be choreographed
in order to work. From Karate people who fight, I've heard, "We block this way for kata, but when we spar we use palm deflections."
That begs the question, why bother practicing it at all?

9395

The down block I, myself have used countless times against kicks. It does work, but I don't like it and have spent years trying to train
the reaction out of me. My problem with it is that it requires dropping your hand, leaving you exposed to an attack to the head. Also,
if a strong round kick is blocked like this, you could very well have your arm broken. I think a parry to the outside, (common MT defense to
a teep, also common TCMA technique,) is much better. With the parry you are still exposing the head, but you can turn your opponents
body away from you at an angle, making it very difficult for him to counter you. A simple knee check is better suited to the low round kick
and has the added benefit of punishing the kicker.

What are your opinions/experience with this type of blocking?

One possibility of the karate outside middle block (as one example) could be meant as an attack to the outside of the elbow, while the non-blocking hand is pulling the wrist down and out in the opposite direction, both actions hyperextending the elbow. Meaning, your left hand to his right wrist, and your 'outside middle block' to his right elbow. And the contact point of the 'block' would be up higher on the forearm instead of the side of your wrist, for greater leverage. This would have to be in close, and definitely not at all as shown in the photo, nor as only a block to a punch. It would also most likely require you to pivot your body. Of course, this would leave you open to his left hand if done at the wrong time, or not quickly enough. I'm simply suggesting another possibility of what the movement might have been intended as.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Add another two to the six: ATTACK and AVOID


mickey

[curenado]

I "re-arranged by priority" in my own case. More than one variable, but somatotype plays such a huge role. (Unless you are a walking refrigerator who just hates hard block even tho you can't feel it :) )

I think they all work pretty good, it is a matter of one being the person to work them.
I will eat that bear in juicy chunks, but oooo, if he lands one or two good ones or gets hold of me.....dead mongoose.
If I was a fridge, I'd let the lil squirrels have a whack or two to bait them in close for the kung fu grip.
This shades heavier by the strength/mass required to utilize them, because even a mongoose might have to resort to all of them, but if possible avoid the "poor mongoose" end of the scale...

evasion: slipping, bobbing and weaving, dodging, head movement,


soft blocking: parries, deflections, "borrowing" force,

intercepting: (landing a more direct technique to a less direct one, i.e. jab lands before hook, front kick before round kick,)

covering: allowing blows to glance off, or land on the guard,

hard blocking: force against force, striking the attack with the forearm, checking with the knee,

absorbing: conditioning the body to be able to take a

[Kellen Bassette]

I think that's one of those situations where somehow the middle block got exaggerated in kata over time but probably started out looking more like this:

9399

if that's the case, then it's used all the time.

I agree, that's what it should have been. Simple direct and practical. The problem with this particular exaggeration over others is, the mechanics change so much by circling the arm inward and out, as opposed to simply turning the torso, it renders the technique useless in it's typically taught, basic form.

Other moves are often exaggerated in form but the mechanics stay the same.

[Kellen Bassette]

One possibility of the karate outside middle block (as one example) could be meant as an attack to the outside of the elbow, while the non-blocking hand is pulling the wrist down and out in the opposite direction, both actions hyperextending the elbow. Meaning, your left hand to his right wrist, and your 'outside middle block' to his right elbow. And the contact point of the 'block' would be up higher on the forearm instead of the side of your wrist, for greater leverage. This would have to be in close, and definitely not at all as shown in the photo, nor as only a block to a punch. It would also most likely require you to pivot your body. Of course, this would leave you open to his left hand if done at the wrong time, or not quickly enough. I'm simply suggesting another possibility of what the movement might have been intended as.

Certainly, I was taught alternate bunkai to every technique I learned in Karate. I also mentioned the more complex blocks are commonly attributed several different applications. My big issue with this particular move is that in many systems, this is day one basics and will be practiced as fundamental for as long as you train. I give a pass to the rising block, I don't think it's practical, but I do know it can be used, and the down block at least works as advertised, if not the best option, but this one, I think you are better off trying to extract some sort of forearm/hammer strike of chi na instead of using it to block with.

Just my opinion though....I'm interested in others' take on it.

[Kellen Bassette]

Greetings,

Add another two to the six: ATTACK and AVOID


mickey

Best defense is a good offense, best block is not to be there...passes the cliche test anyway. :D

[Kellen Bassette]

I "re-arranged by priority" in my own case.

Interesting, I also had them arranged by priority. Not so much what I do, but what I would like to do....every now and then I skip the first five and go straight to taking a beating!

[bawang]

exotic blocks stand out, westerners pay money for the exotic.

from my experience when i show a realistic move, idea, theory or application to a hobbyist they lose all interest or even accuse me of fraud

kung fu is supposed to mold and shape its practioner but american kung fu is shaped by the customer

[Fa Xing]

I find that 75% of the time I use a cover (in Xingyi it's called "Tiger Holds Its Head") or a parry, and to make it even simpler I usually cover with my lead hand and parry with my back hand, although that's not hard/fast rule.

The other 25% of the time I just hit them before they hit me.

[curenado]

The other 25% of the time I just hit them before they hit me.

Ha that's good. I was thinking about that attack as a tactic point made back up there...


"Kung fu is supposed to mold and shape its practioner but american kung fu is shaped by the customer"

Very often true. The part about being jumped and accused because you are not identifying the latest compartmentalized fad as the true, original school even more so.
(Who cares apes stupid)

[boxerbilly]

Great topic and thread Kellen.

For me, I got hit a lot. Both in boxing and karate. That said, slap parries worked well when I pulled them off. Slips I think were more accidental , I got bad eyes with the glasses off. Other than that it was shell up and absorb stuff on my arms and gloves as much as possible. But me style was to always advance. Always throw. Overwhelm. Having poor eyes, it was the only thing that worked consistently. I take 2 to give 10 sort of deal. If you keep them on their heels those 2 normally had little on them.

Really great thread .

[Kellen Bassette]

kung fu is supposed to mold and shape its practioner but american kung fu is shaped by the customer

Sadly, this is true more often than not.

[Kellen Bassette]

Great topic and thread Kellen.

For me, I got hit a lot. Both in boxing and karate. That said, slap parries worked well when I pulled them off. Slips I think were more accidental , I got bad eyes with the glasses off. Other than that it was shell up and absorb stuff on my arms and gloves as much as possible. But me style was to always advance. Always throw. Overwhelm. Having poor eyes, it was the only thing that worked consistently. I take 2 to give 10 sort of deal. If you keep them on their heels those 2 normally had little on them.

Really great thread .

Thanks Billy, there's an art to that too....pushing forward, keeping someone backing up, taking weak shots to give heavy shots....that style works for a lot of people. And like you mentioned, slap parries, slips and cover....really what tends to work the best.

I try not to write something off just because it hasn't worked for me....other people can do things I can't and may have a different method of making them work. I'm fairly confident in my assessment of the most basic blocks though...the more complex blocks, I mentioned a few out of the hundreds, not so sure. There tends to be very wide ranging ideas on the applications of these techniques. I am hoping some folks will share how they utilize them effectively.

On a side note...I do now recall successfully using an X block, of the rising variety, on "da streetz" once. Someone tried to double hand choke me from the front, (not a very good move to lead with, I know.) I reached up caught both his wrists and pulled them down then landed a nice heavy round kick on his leg. The move, of course, wouldn't look exactly like the pose in form/kata but in application it was the proper technique. One of those rare cases where someone actually did lead with one of those silly bone head moves you see demoed all the time, a half-way experienced fighter would never do that...

[curenado]

If it was just street, I would have to say evade is all I've had to. Not a lot of street fighting time logged. Evade and hit was it so far on "surprise street chaos".

[-N-]

It seems to me that in traditional martial arts, there is a big focus on what I call "soft blocking" and "hard blocking."
[...]
I want to discuss what blocking techniques actually work for you and which ones you find useless.
[...]
Some of the most common blocks practiced are high, middle and low versions of the forearm block. They are fundamental in Okinawan, Japanese, and many Chinese systems. These are hard blocks, (although many instructors will say it's soft because you are deflecting the attack in a circular manner, experience says otherwise.
[...]
In my experience the rising block, is seen very rarely against real pressure.


Hard block, or force against force crashing, is instinctual. People need to train ability to achieve the softer intercepting type motions. Unconsciously, they really want to knock away the threat because they are afraid.

If a method doesn't work, is it the person or the technique? A lot of times people will say the method is ineffective, but it may be that they are doing it wrong.

A rising block(Kwa Sou, in Praying Mantis) that crashes against an attack is the beginner way. It's slow. It tends to be isolated to arm power instead of using full body mechanics. It doesn't integrate well with followup attacking. And it does little to control the opponent's center of mass. If a student is crashing or making big circles, we tell them they are doing it wrong.

Instead of crashing, we are looking to intercept with our force vector tangent to the punch. Doing this from under his punch while advancing and turning lets you redirect his attack and throw him off balance and even backwards. The effect is like in a movie car stunt when one side of a car goes up a ramp and the car flips over. The faster the car goes, the harder it flips.

If you use this when the person makes a strong committed attack, he throws himself off balance and gives you a big opening to attack his flank.

Most students have a problem pulling this off. It takes a lot of training and guts to attack into the opponent's attack using an indirect method. They will hesitate and use the hard crashing method and get clobbered, which just reinforces them not to want to use the technique in the future.

[-N-]

The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch.

Done the beginner way, with a lot of elbow bend and sideways crashing motion, it's pretty poor.

Extend out to intercept the attack, catch the attack and draw it in while you also go in, use minimal sideways pressure just enough to take the attack off line, and jam in your own attack with the other hand at the same time. That works really well.

Because your blocking arm isn't using brute force to knock away a punch, it can follow your attacking hand very quickly with a 1-2 timing. From straight 2, you recoil into a hook with the same hand. Makes for a nice 1-2-3 counterattack that needs only a small opening.

[-N-]

The best example, off the top of my head, where blocking and striking is routinely successful would be this glorious technique.
[...]
Do you successfully apply simultaneous blocks and strikes under duress? What do you use and how do you make it work?

Simultaneous control and hit with one move. As the guy punches, angle off and in, punch over the top of his attack. Your forearm controls his punch while your fist lands on his face.

[Kellen Bassette]

Simultaneous control and hit with one move. As the guy punches, angle off and in, punch over the top of his attack. Your forearm controls his punch while your fist lands on his face.

I was hoping you would comment. That's a good one that I hadn't really thought of as "blocking."

[Kellen Bassette]

Done the beginner way, with a lot of elbow bend and sideways crashing motion, it's pretty poor.

Extend out to intercept the attack, catch the attack and draw it in while you also go in, use minimal sideways pressure just enough to take the attack off line, and jam in your own attack with the other hand at the same time. That works really well.

Because your blocking arm isn't using brute force to knock away a punch, it can follow your attacking hand very quickly with a 1-2 timing. From straight 2, you recoil into a hook with the same hand. Makes for a nice 1-2-3 counterattack that needs only a small opening.

There are lots of variations on middle block that would be far more practical than the basic scenario I described. Trouble I have with it, is I feel the most basic version is the worst....a sort of middle block variation I like, used in a lot of southern kung fu, the blocking arm is held higher, elbow at 90 degrees...(really a head block, but just sinking the elbow would protect the body,) you turn your torso to make the block, while punching...a lot like a stylized boxing catch and counter, different energy though. Haven't done much real testing of it...but I should....

[-N-]

That's a good one that I hadn't really thought of as "blocking."

It not really a block. More of a deflect/control using the attacking punch.

The "rising block" has the same timing feel and initial tangential intercept, except from underneath.

[YouKnowWho]

When you

- were young, you may like to use hard block to hurt your opponent's kicking leg or punching arm.
- get older, you may like to use soft deflect to redirect your opponent's punch away from yourself.
- get much older, you may like to squeeze yourself through your opponent's punching gap and get your opponent at the same time.

You should let your opponent to worry about "blocking". The moment that your opponent punches at you, you should think about not to give him any chance to punch you again.

In the

- throwing art, you should pay more attention on how to throw your opponent and let him to worry about "break fall".
- striking art, you should pay more attention on how to punch your opponent and let him to worry about "blocking".

When your opponent punches you, you jump in and attack him a the same time. IMO, that's the correct MA attitude.

[jimbob]

I agree 100% with your assertions about the low block. I don't really see how that would be preferred technique for dealing with kicking when there are other options that work much better.

The picture posted of the karateka doing ....jodan uke? The high rising block with the right hand pulled back to the waist? It looks very similar to one application I was shown for taiji's 'ward off', where, after a grab (ie - hockey style - grab and hold the shirt with one hand and thump with the other), the retracting hand wraps the grabbing hand, pulling back it toward the defender while simultaneously smashing up under the jaw or against the side of the neck with the rising forearm.

I could also imagine this being used with forward movement to steal someone's space from them. As a static kind of standard block - I don't know that you'd recover in time to stop anything else coming at you.

I don't know if this is how it's taught in traditional karate but the mechanics of the posture and their similarity to 'ward off' make me wonder if there are layers of meaning in the movements that some people perhaps don't reach?

[curenado]

When you

- were young, you may like to use hard block to hurt your opponent's kicking leg or punching arm.
- get older, you may like to use soft deflect to redirect your opponent's punch away from yourself.
- get much older, you may like to squeeze yourself through your opponent's punching gap and get your opponent at the same time.

You should let your opponent to worry about "blocking". The moment that your opponent punches at you, you should think about not to give him any chance to punch you again.

In the

- throwing art, you should pay more attention on how to throw your opponent and let him to worry about "break fall".
- striking art, you should pay more attention on how to punch your opponent and let him to worry about "blocking".

When your opponent punches you, you jump in and attack him a the same time. IMO, that's the correct MA attitude.

This.
I would like to add with permission that when you are younger you take pre fight stances, happily and proudly displaying what the idiot is getting their self in to.
When you are older you just stand there looking plain as punch and every bit worth punching....it's truly evil, but people who are going to punch poor kind lao fu deserve it and the surprise is very helpful (and gratifying)

[-N-]

When you

- were young, you may like to use hard block to hurt your opponent's kicking leg or punching arm.
- get older, you may like to use soft deflect to redirect your opponent's punch away from yourself.
- get much older, you may like to squeeze yourself through your opponent's punching gap and get your opponent at the same time.

[...]

When your opponent punches you, you jump in and attack him a the same time. IMO, that's the correct MA attitude.

Yep!

Get inside the gap between his intent and his movement.

[YouKnowWho]

Yep!

Get inside the gap between his intent and his movement.

Try to move in right after your opponent's 1st or 2nd punch should be the most important part of your daily training. The reason is simple. When your opponent punches you, he is closing the distance for you and you should take advantage on it.

IMO, the best strategy in MA is, "if you punch/kick at me, I'll run you down". Your opponent's punch should be treated as "his invitation for your attack".

[mawali]

A block that works is obviously doing its job, One that does not, gets you hit upside da head or worse, don't ya think?
As Mr Who stated, one can get out of the way then position to setup for throw, or push/unbalance, then whatever your strong point is, utilize

[Kellen Bassette]

In the

- throwing art, you should pay more attention on how to throw your opponent and let him to worry about "break fall".
- striking art, you should pay more attention on how to punch your opponent and let him to worry about "blocking".

When your opponent punches you, you jump in and attack him a the same time. IMO, that's the correct MA attitude.

Missed you man...I also subscribe to this philosophy. Defense is a losing game in the long run.

[Kellen Bassette]

A block that works is obviously doing its job, One that does not, gets you hit upside da head or worse, don't ya think?


Well sure, but sometimes we make a block work, then fail later with the same block. Operator error, not faulty equipment. Other time a certain block has never worked...possibly faulty equipment....possibly we aren't using it correctly.

[YouKnowWho]

Missed you man...I also subscribe to this philosophy. Defense is a losing game in the long run.

Even a 6 years old, if he keeps punching at you and you keep blocking, soon or later he will still hit you. No matter how good you are, you will still miss your block sometime. You will never be able to claim that you can continue to block 1,000 punches from your opponent and not even miss 1 punch.

[Kellen Bassette]

The picture posted of the karateka doing ....jodan uke? The high rising block with the right hand pulled back to the waist? It looks very similar to one application I was shown for taiji's 'ward off', where, after a grab (ie - hockey style - grab and hold the shirt with one hand and thump with the other), the retracting hand wraps the grabbing hand, pulling back it toward the defender while simultaneously smashing up under the jaw or against the side of the neck with the rising forearm.

I could also imagine this being used with forward movement to steal someone's space from them. As a static kind of standard block - I don't know that you'd recover in time to stop anything else coming at you.

I don't know if this is how it's taught in traditional karate but the mechanics of the posture and their similarity to 'ward off' make me wonder if there are layers of meaning in the movements that some people perhaps don't reach?

Yes, all those applications you mentioned are taught for that technique....and are probably better suited than the basic idea of using it to defend a punch to the head. I think being able to deal with hard, fast, retracted punches needs to be addressed as early as possible...students need something that is going to work for them right away. You know, for when you spar at the end of class. :D

[PalmStriker]

:) When it comes to blocking defense I use only one ingrained blocking body configuration to deal with incoming striking force. A full body block for immediate protection, especially against a surprise attack. Shrinking/falling back for evasion of striking force is the option. Putting up a shield for the enemy to crash into unexpectedly can give you that split second advantage you may need. Warding off an attack allows you to remain intact to deliver. Roman Strategy: http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/images/Product/large/MCI-2086-1.png

[Brat]

To my thinking there are 6 distinct methods of defense,
intercepting: (landing a more direct technique to a less direct one, i.e. jab lands before hook, front kick before round kick,)
evasion: slipping, bobbing and weaving, dodging, head movement,
soft blocking: parries, deflections, "borrowing" force,
hard blocking: force against force, striking the attack with the forearm, checking with the knee,
covering: allowing blows to glance off, or land on the guard,
absorbing: conditioning the body to be able to take a shot.

Obviously, intercepting and evasion are the ideal methods, but that can't always be accomplished in the real world.
It seems to me that in traditional martial arts, there is a big focus on what I call "soft blocking" and "hard blocking."
I want to discuss what blocking techniques actually work for you and which ones you find useless. Also, if you teach
blocks that you find useless, why?

Some of the most common blocks practiced are high, middle and low versions of the forearm block. They are fundamental
in Okinawan, Japanese, and many Chinese systems. These are hard blocks, (although many instructors will say it's soft because
you are deflecting the attack in a circular manner, experience says otherwise. You have to apply force to move a punch thrown
with real intent and your forearm will feel it.)
In many schools, the practice of standing in a line practicing these blocks in the air, or with a compliant partner punching at you,
is absolutely fundamental to the system. The question is, do you find these techniques practical at all, during hard sparring or
real fighting?

9393

In my experience the rising block, is seen very rarely against real pressure. This technique is not only found in TMAs but in old
schooling boxing manuals and Muay Thai. When applied it tends to look much more like a slightly modified boxer's cover than
the clean forearm angling over the head.

9394

The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever
work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of
your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch. It simply needs to be choreographed
in order to work. From Karate people who fight, I've heard, "We block this way for kata, but when we spar we use palm deflections."
That begs the question, why bother practicing it at all?

9395

The down block I, myself have used countless times against kicks. It does work, but I don't like it and have spent years trying to train
the reaction out of me. My problem with it is that it requires dropping your hand, leaving you exposed to an attack to the head. Also,
if a strong round kick is blocked like this, you could very well have your arm broken. I think a parry to the outside, (common MT defense to
a teep, also common TCMA technique,) is much better. With the parry you are still exposing the head, but you can turn your opponents
body away from you at an angle, making it very difficult for him to counter you. A simple knee check is better suited to the low round kick
and has the added benefit of punishing the kicker.

What are your opinions/experience with this type of blocking?

I once saw a Shotokan Karate master demonstrate in Bangkok. His movement was fluid, not punctuated and rigid like you see in most kata demonstrations. One has to understand that these arts were dynamic in their execution as originally intended and meant to adapt to the situation. The forms were just a starting point. Lots of what happened in the West is that some of the first guys to learn this stuff and bring it home were in the military. Generally their tours were not very long 1-2 years. It takes many years of training to get the essence of the art and lots of those guys just learned lots of basics and then brought it back to teach as gospel without ever really being challenged to put up in the real world. Thus crappy technique perpetuated itself and so on.

The middle block that you identified has always perplexed me as well. We have a similar block in Hsing-i and I've always regarded it as a pulling technique. Some civil war era knives had copper lining the back of the blade and that was to provide a soft surface to grab an opponents knife should the two collide. In like manner the inner "yin" part of the arm is the absorbing surface and seems to serve a similar function. A much stronger block is with the palm facing the opponent which is actually a modification of Pao quan or "Fire Fist". It also provides a biomechanical setup for a really powerful counter punch. With the orthodox form there does seem to be some opportunities for redirection of force but that would be some advanced stuff with a moving opponent. Not impossible but probably beyond the scope of somebody that needs reliable technique out of the box.

Also lots of these blocks are much more effective when combined with some dynamic footwork and honestly that's probably the main feature I've found lacking in many martial arts. When I began studying Hsing-i I could never figure out why my teacher could so easily wipe me out until I discovered that he was fluidly moving in and out of my effective striking zone while blocking and I was performing the techniques while basically standing still which is really what most martial arts in my experience teach. That's not to say that they don't move but when the technique comes they momentarily freeze their footwork to perform it. By the time I tried to counter he had already reset his position and I had to reset mine before re engaging.

[bawang]

the more orthodox and well grounded northern styles dont focus on types of blocking or special hand attacks. its just a slap or a hard arm knock or cover up. its all footwork and body work

[Kellen Bassette]

Lots of what happened in the West is that some of the first guys to learn this stuff and bring it home were in the military. Generally their tours were not very long 1-2 years. It takes many years of training to get the essence of the art and lots of those guys just learned lots of basics and then brought it back to teach as gospel without ever really being challenged to put up in the real world. Thus crappy technique perpetuated itself and so on.


This is exactly how Karate was brought to the west. But also, the Okinawans weren't sparring so it's easy to see how those ideas got perpetuated. The Okinawan's inherited all those techniques from China though...presumably they were never exposed to real sparring/fight training either, or they simply decided not to practice/teach it.

[Kellen Bassette]

the more orthodox and well grounded northern styles dont focus on types of blocking or special hand attacks. its just a slap or a hard arm knock or cover up. its all footwork and body work

I've noticed that in older forms, while many modern forms seem to incorporate the blocking methods I was talking about.

[Fa Xing]

the more orthodox and well grounded northern styles dont focus on types of blocking or special hand attacks. its just a slap or a hard arm knock or cover up. its all footwork and body work

That's how I was taught it in Xingyi, that it is a cover, and it can aid you getting on the inside.


The middle block that you identified has always perplexed me as well. We have a similar block in Hsing-i and I've always regarded it as a pulling technique.

[boxerbilly]

Sparring at a distance, all that stuff works great if you practice it. When a dude is close enough to tough you and moves. My money says he is going to crack you before you can flinch. RANGE is important. Most blocks and parry's will only work at a distance far enough away for you to see and react in time. Now that WC and other systems idea of contact blocking/redirection works great and is sound in that we react to touch quicker than visually. But the problem is you have to touch for it to work. So, the problem for WC, etc guys is you need to figure out how to do that before a fight kicks off.

Personally, I will just smack you in the face first and either continue or back off and get my range or better still turn and run away like a sissy. I am all for running away!

[SteveLau]

Many super input in this thread.

Kellen,

To comment on your view on the middle and low block, they are not useless. They are effective under certain conditions. Not rare conditions.


Middle Block - done properly, we use the inner edge of our forearm to block. The muscles used are not only those in our forearm, but the upper arm and shoulder are used to support the move and stability after our forearm hit the opponent's forearm. The conditions required is that the incoming attack is a straight arm attack. The block is not strong enough in strength against attack like a hook punch. Besides, the inner edge of our forearm is weaker than the outer edge.

Low Block - done properly, we use our palm to hit the opponent's leg at any where between the middle of his shin and the thigh. Because the leg is stronger than an arm, applying a hard block against a kick at a spot lower than the mid-shin is not advisable. The contact force is just too strong. Sure, the opponent's leg might get hurt, but our arm will certainly got injured. You know the vulunbility of this block technique. So either keep our upper trunk not close to the opponent arms or duck our upper trunk to his mid-section. No matter the block is successful or not, make counter-attack right away if we can.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

The idea of "blocking" may be too conservative. If you can always use your blocking followed by a "wrapping", you can wrap your opponent as an octopus wraps on a fish, your opponent won't be able to punch you again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n0GnSFmYsc

[Kellen Bassette]

Many super input in this thread.

Kellen,

To comment on your view on the middle and low block, they are not useless. They are effective under certain conditions. Not rare conditions.



Thanks Steve, actually I think the low block works alright, just feel there are better options...I would have to see someone making the middle block work well, in the manner it's taught. Seems like effective middle blocks tend to look a lot more like the boxing block Mighty B posted earlier....

[SoCo KungFu]

I have to agree with bawang. I can't even think of a hard block in kung fu. If bung bu is the 1st mantis form ever created then the 1st principle any mantis student ever learns is to evade. Though in this case, evade is a combo of what you've listed as evade and soft block. We do have a concept of hanging an attack. But its not a hard block as some would describe in that picture. More like an upward parry while moving in to attack below the arm.

[David Jamieson]

shrimp out is where to start.

Shell or destruction will basically render incoming force to near nill.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4563/cmanglesneg.gif

Patting while moving back works.

Cutting works for low incoming. Like a chopping motion.

feeding the seam of your glove forward, keeping your elbow in and moving in to a strike to steal it's power works as well.


A few caveats. You have to have good structure. You have to have strength and good footing. You have to be somewhat conditioned, you have to be able to see what's going on in your conflict.

[mbellish]

At our school we spend quite a bit of time on forearm conditioning, as well as the rest of our bodies, with the goal being hard blocks that hurt the attacker as well as deflect the attack. This breaks up the timing of the attacker and grants access to strike your own attacks, though this could be considered an attack as well!

I do use the rising block when strikes are coming at the head, typically to deflect the attack offline, but it's a quick motion and doesn't stay up there long.

The middle block, rarely would I keep a block that close to my body, rather I would try to intercept the attack further out with a long arm strike.

Kicks are always difficult to block, when we do light sparring I try to keep proper kung-fu low block form, but kicks come in fast when hard sparring, and its always very difficult to gauge if its a low kick or its coming for your head. I usually advocate for just moving out of the way of a kick, if you can.

[SteveLau]

Kellen,

To supplement further on the middle block, its advantage is speed. One does not even need to take deep breath inhale before execute the block.

As for forearm conditioning, a student needs to condition his forearms as well as his lower legs strong enought before training free fight. That's my view.




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[B.Tunks]

I have to agree with bawang. I can't even think of a hard block in kung fu. If bung bu is the 1st mantis form ever created then the 1st principle any mantis student ever learns is to evade. Though in this case, evade is a combo of what you've listed as evade and soft block. We do have a concept of hanging an attack. But its not a hard block as some would describe in that picture. More like an upward parry while moving in to attack below the arm.

What about fanche and lulu? They're dual purpose - strike/block and definitely hard.

[MarathonTmatt]

I have to agree with bawang. I can't even think of a hard block in kung fu.... We do have a concept of hanging an attack. But its not a hard block as some would describe in that picture. More like an upward parry while moving in to attack below the arm.

Agreed! In longfist I can't really think of any "blocks" (like a 'karate' block) but I would describe what you said, an upaward parry (for instance), "brushing aside an opponents attack whilst delivering powerful strikes" etc. and than of course there is trapping/ chin na.

[MarathonTmatt]

Sparring at a distance, all that stuff works great if you practice it. When a dude is close enough to tough you and moves. My money says he is going to crack you before you can flinch. RANGE is important. Most blocks and parry's will only work at a distance far enough away for you to see and react in time. Now that WC and other systems idea of contact blocking/redirection works great and is sound in that we react to touch quicker than visually. But the problem is you have to touch for it to work. So, the problem for WC, etc guys is you need to figure out how to do that before a fight kicks off.

Personally, I will just smack you in the face first and either continue or back off and get my range or better still turn and run away like a sissy. I am all for running away!

Good insight, billy. I always considered blocks and parry's to be a mid- long range techniques while doing partner exercises and also sparring. for close range I like bumps and throws, like a hip bump or a take-down.

[MarathonTmatt]

At our school we spend quite a bit of time on forearm conditioning, as well as the rest of our bodies, with the goal being hard blocks that hurt the attacker as well as deflect the attack. This breaks up the timing of the attacker and grants access to strike your own attacks, though this could be considered an attack as well!

I do use the rising block when strikes are coming at the head, typically to deflect the attack offline, but it's a quick motion and doesn't stay up there long.

The middle block, rarely would I keep a block that close to my body, rather I would try to intercept the attack further out with a long arm strike.

Kicks are always difficult to block, when we do light sparring I try to keep proper kung-fu low block form, but kicks come in fast when hard sparring, and its always very difficult to gauge if its a low kick or its coming for your head. I usually advocate for just moving out of the way of a kick, if you can.

hurray for fore-arm conditioning! hard blocks can def. be disruptive. I find that with my push hands training applied to sparring I will usually re-direct or even try to trap mid-range strikes if I can. it's easier to re-direct and counter with my own strike(s). or, just like you said about kicking, move out of the way if you can and set up for a counter that way.

[-N-]

What about fanche and lulu? They're dual purpose - strike/block and definitely hard.

Similarly with pek(pi).

Though for all three, I might try to do the block to redirect as a press with less impact, and the strike harder with more impact.

But I'll take what I can get, haha.

[B.Tunks]

Similarly with pek(pi).

Though for all three, I might try to do the block to redirect as a press with less impact, and the strike harder with more impact.

But I'll take what I can get, haha.

Agreed, especially with Lulu (I would still try to rip it in, though stick and wind on impact rather than crash through).

Yep, whatever does the trick at that particular moment is the one ;)

[mickey]

Greetings,

The brief stint that I had in Tae Kwon Do, the training of the upper and middle blocks involved both hands. In retrospect, I learned that the blocks were preceded by soft parry/deflection with the other hand. Though it was never taught to me that way, the technique was there for me to recognize years later. That being said, the aggressive aspect of blocking has been de-emphasized in Karate and Tae Kwon Do. When it came to the two blocks that I mentioned, they were quickly converted into controlling grabs to set up the finishing technique or techniques. High, middle and low blocks did not constitute the "all" of the types of blocks found in Karate/Tae Kwon do. You do not see this too much now days.


mickey

[Kellen Bassette]

The brief stint that I had in Tae Kwon Do, the training of the upper and middle blocks involved both hands. In retrospect, I learned that the blocks were preceded by soft parry/deflection with the other hand.

In Go Ju Ryu, at "higher levels," you also learn a parrying type movement with the opposite hand, which softens the block. It feels smoother when drilling, but in reality I think it just further complicates a simple idea.




High, middle and low blocks did not constitute the "all" of the types of blocks found in Karate/Tae Kwon do. You do not see this too much now days.


There's more blocks than you will ever use, for sure. Still, when you see Karate/TKD guys spar, they seem to focus on palm deflections/parries.