Wing Chun Sparring

[thedreamer7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F56kp73Q0DA

[Frost]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F56kp73Q0DA

Are you one of the guys in the clip?

[thedreamer7]

Are you one of the guys in the clip?

I am, yes.

[LFJ]

Not sure Wing Chun is the style for the basketball player. He's giving up his size and reach advantage, making it easier for his opponents to deal with him, and harder on himself.

[Frost]

I am, yes.

And you honestly think its both a good representation of wing Chun and sparring in general

[thedreamer7]

And you honestly think its both a good representation of wing Chun and sparring in general

This is real training not something choreographed for the camera and the two smaller guys have fought in the ring so have nothing to prove. Have you?

[Lee Chiang Po]

actually, this is not a good representation of wing chun sparring. chi sau is a game we play that helps us develop our attack and defence techniques. sparring from a chi sau is not really appropriate. the only other person you will expect to do that is a wing chun trained person. unless you hang out in a wing chun school, you are not likely ever have to defend against another such trained person. crossing and rolling hands will get you into trouble.
I remember watching a video where the WC guy just walked into the ring and immediately tried to cross hands. the other guy just knocked his brain out.

[JPinAZ]

Sorry dreamer but I have to agree with the others, this isn't 'sparring', WC or otherwise. While there is what some might view as light wing chun chi sau drilling in the beginning and the second part is just light tag and chasing hands and little to know real contact - just because there are gloves on doesn't make it sparring. Nothing personal here :)

[thedreamer7]

Sorry dreamer but I have to agree with the others, this isn't 'sparring', WC or otherwise. While there is what some might view as light wing chun chi sau drilling in the beginning and the second part is just light tag and chasing hands and little to know real contact - just because there are gloves on doesn't make it sparring. Nothing personal here :)

None taken. Please enlighten me with your sparring or ring experience to give some context or weight to your opionions.

[JPinAZ]

None taken. Please enlighten me with your sparring or ring experience to give some context or weight to your opionions.

Heh, nice try - It's not my job to teach you these things, but I honestly was just trying to help and not take a dig at you. It's good that you are putting yourself out there and if you had just made the thread 'here's some clips of some light WC training' I'd agree 100%, but I really don't think you understand what 'sparring' is .
To quote an old member here (T.N.), all you have to do is go to any boxing gym to see what sparring is. Or look up 'boxing sparring' on youtube. WC sparring shouldn't be much different, even if our tools, methods and approaches are.

Here's one of the first examples that shows up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2VSIDBWNGc

Again, different methods and approaches to fighting from WC, but there is real contact and real punches thrown here with intent (even if not at full power). Only this type of pressure testing is going to help you see where your skills really are. Chi sau drills are good for understanding tools, leverage reference points, pressure in a controlled setting, etc, but I think often times people mistake these things for sparring.

[thedreamer7]

Heh, nice try - It's not my job to teach you these things, but I honestly was just trying to help and not take a dig at you. It's good that you are putting yourself out there and if you had just made the thread 'here's some clips of some light WC training' I'd agree 100%, but I really don't think you understand what 'sparring' is .
To quote an old member here (T.N.), all you have to do is go to any boxing gym to see what sparring is. Or look up 'boxing sparring' on youtube. WC sparring shouldn't be much different, even if our tools, methods and approaches are.

Here's one of the first examples that shows up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2VSIDBWNGc

Again, different methods and approaches to fighting from WC, but there is real contact and real punches thrown here with intent (even if not at full power). Only this type of pressure testing is going to help you see where your skills really are. Chi sau drills are good for understanding tools, leverage reference points, pressure in a controlled setting, etc, but I think often times people mistake these things for sparring.

Not asking you to teach me. I am asking you to back up what you know about sparring, as an ex amateur boxer I think I know what 'boxing sparring is". Thanks for showing me your ability to use google.
Sparring is about timing and movement, nothing else. You will also note the clip you provided me were individuals of the same weight category, etc. The clip I provided was of people with over 50lbs weight difference, hardly appropriate for what you're suggesting, again it is about use timing and movement. Also please look at the difference in gloves between the clips.
If you want full contact you need smoker events, step in the ring, etc. Like below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pidTtZqueXY

[Frost]

This is real training not something choreographed for the camera and the two smaller guys have fought in the ring so have nothing to prove. Have you?
Yes I have, both kick boxing, and traditional kung fu fighting, and after spending 10 years in the same gym as Paul Daley and Andre winner I know wheat fighting and sparring looks like and that isn't it

[Wayfaring]

This is real training not something choreographed for the camera and the two smaller guys have fought in the ring so have nothing to prove. Have you?

I honestly have a tough time with video clips like this. On a positive side the school atmosphere does seem to include a lot of free movement interaction (sparring/etc - I don't want to argue over semantics). On the negative side which is going to be amplified in clip comments here just the nature of things, the chi sau seemed very attribute based, and I think that doesn't work at all as the skill level of the opponent goes up - need to control the space, not do the arm motions. The sparring you don't have enough space to move freely and with that hard of a floor and a mirror you're only going to be able to minimally step up the pace. 4oz gloves do cut so I can understand not unloading on punches, but the sparring part to me didn't really involve much contact at all. Also the cheaper the 4oz glove the more it cuts. But the fact that you are doing it, it's ingrained into the culture of the school, etc. is a whole lot better than not doing it. For a contrast on the contact level, here's some sparring at Travis Lutter's - a mma gym where I know the quality of the competitors. Wing chun sparring at the same level probably won't have the same evasion tactics but stay more put.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=30&v=iWPsnwNT_cI

So overall honestly I would say keep doing your thing with some relatively minor adjustments. The changes needed between what is on that clip and what represents good quality sparring sessions is minor compared to the changes needed in a school whose culture just ignores all that kind of interaction with sparring. And you don't have to train ground fighting but do have to allow for it in sparring sessions.

Hopefully this post is helpful. I'm sure the tendency on this forum after posting up a video clip is to think there's a bunch of non sparring armchair quarterbacks criticizing, but I also think there are a fair amount of posters with some experience on here too so please stick around and help show us how you're developing your sparring over time. That kind of development in schools interests me a lot.

[JPinAZ]

Not asking you to teach me. I am asking you to back up what you know about sparring, as an ex amateur boxer I think I know what 'boxing sparring is". Thanks for showing me your ability to use google.

And thanks for your snarky reply LOL
I provided that clip for a reason and I feel it is still a valid example of what I'm talking about in regards to making contact & pressure (more on that below).


Sparring is about timing and movement, nothing else. You will also note the clip you provided me were individuals of the same weight category, etc. The clip I provided was of people with over 50lbs weight difference, hardly appropriate for what you're suggesting, again it is about use timing and movement. Also please look at the difference in gloves between the clips.
If you want full contact you need smoker events, step in the ring, etc. Like below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pidTtZqueXY

I see sparring as a lot more than you listed above, so maybe that's the disconnect. Having had boxing experience yourself, I am surprised this is all it its to you. Again, maybe that's why the disconnect

To be on even ground and since you asked for my ring/sparring experience, here it is: I trained for a several years in a boxing gym when I was younger. I sparred on a pretty regular basis. Some light contact to work on what you are saying (timing/movement), and then progressively upping the challenges, speed, intensity, time, etc to pressure test my skills to the point they start falling apart so I know what to go back and work on.

I have also been training WC since 2003. I feel sparring should be an integral part of skill development and pressure testing in ANY art and in most cases is the same format, boxing, WC or otherwise. IMO, it's a lot more than just 'about timing and movement'. While yes sparring is surely about those things, that is only a very general sense and in my experience it should be quite a bit more than that. While again, I applaud your efforts and willingness to share what you're doing here, I see what you are showing as what I view the first basic step into 'sparring'. (nothing personal or slight against you as we all should start there - just giving my POV)

For me, 'sparring' is also about progressively taking off the training wheels from regular partner drilling and building up to a point where you're pressure testing either a given area of skills you've developed or up to and including all of the areas you've trained (and even into areas you haven't). You could have constraints set to say, work only random single handed attack/defense, moving into simple 2 and 3 shot hand attacks/defenses & counter attacks, adding in kicks, then move toward all free attacks/exchanges in stand-up only, and even include grappling/wrestling attempts and ultimately even takedowns and ground work. Or just work any given area in isolation. And yes, all of this in a WC school, as one should test against anything that could happen in the real world :) Again, I would expect if you've been in amateur boxing, none of this should be too foreign to you.
But my point being - the energy level/pressure goes up as the sparring progresses as well and/or as constraints are stripped away. This will test your application skills and help identify problem areas, which give a 'real' assessment of where your fight skills are at. Without this type of progressive sparring pressure testing, you can't truly find where your holes are in things like WC body structure, centerline occupation, facing, gate theories, etc as you'd need them in a real confrontation. Fixed drills & chi sau only go so far.

In any case, beyond the beginning step of getting to the movement and contact (everyone has to start somewhwere!), there should be increased contact/pressure applied very shortly after, which is why I included the clip to give an example of what I'm referring too. Besides the cut factor of small glove sizes as wayfarring pointed out, why should WC sparring be any different than what I provided in the clip or outlined above? (although in WC we are working different strategies, tools, methods, bridging applications, etc) To only spar with timing/movement in mind, and not actually tring to hit each other with some type of force/pressure (25%, 50%, 75%, etc energy), seems very limited and doesn't give the feedback sparring should IMO - regardless the size/weight. So not sure the point of your weight class comparison. IMO if the individuals are able to control their shots to a pre-determined level, size/weight discrepencies should matter less. I have sparred with people bigger than me and also much smaller than me, with both higher and lower skill level. As long as the constraints are understood, energy levels are match appropriately and both are working equally to the same goals, it should still be productive with higher energy levels. And, it's also nice to have someone bigger or stronger or more skilled to be able to be taken into deep waters and see if you sink or swim.
With your previous experience, you should be able to have enough control over your energies to be able to up the pressure level beyond light tag as shown in the clip with bigger/smaller people yeah? How do you prove if WC can really work against bigger/stronger/faster as it's supposedly designer for unless you really test it against someone trying to give you the buisness a little?

And I really don't see the point of your clip you provided. Are you saying your first clip on your OP is 'sparring' at it's limits, this second clip is 'full contact' and there is nothing in between?

[thedreamer7]

And I really don't see the point of your clip you provided. Are you saying your first clip on your OP is 'sparring' at it's limits, this second clip is 'full contact' and there is nothing in between?

Yes. Again I would prefer if you and your buddy provided clips rather than just text, otherwise to me you sound just like armchair warriors. The other clip I posted to you was to show my guys actually go and fight rather than talk. You can talk all you like on a forum, but you only know what works by stepping in the ring, my training is geared towards that. Many of the guys I train with are active MMA fighters and have a very different opinion to you on sparring.
Regarding ground game, I enter BJJ competitions, so again I leave that to the matt to figure out what works. I train at Marchelo Garcia BJJ school.

[wiz cool c]

I think the reason for so much Inside style hating is that people don’t believe in their system, and follow popular trends and fads. for example judo people spar in thick jackets and start from a clinch and only work throws 90% of the time. BJJ guys start sparing on their knees. You can say, well no one will have on a thick jacket most of the time, and people don’t start a fight from a clinch. Or how many people start a real fight on their knees, or fighting from a guard, really I good idea for a real fight? But these are accepted cause they are the "in thing". if wing chun is an in close fighting style makes sense they practice their chi sao free style most of the time, and from time to time test it out in other ways, like the author said in the ring

[anerlich]

There are valid reasons why judo and BJJ players wear thick jackets. Most people you might have to defend against will be wearing clothes, so arguably gi is better for self defence training than fighting no gi. But wearing regular street clothes is impractical, if you used T shirts for cloth grips you'd be replacing them every session.

You start from your knees in crowded BJJ schools to avoid the collisions and injuries that arise from having too many people falling on each other. Many schools don't always start from the knees but might have you starting in someone's guard, or one person starting seated and the other standing, which is reasonably realistic from a self defense point of view. Most good schools add specialised takedown classes and spend time on self defense applications.

"Realistic" depends on your goals for training. If as the Centre for Disease Control said once, you are many thousands of times more likely to die of lifestyle related heart disease than from a violent assault, then perhaps concentrating solely on self defence may not be the most appropriate way to train. People do martial arts for all sorts of reasons, most of which are valid.

Inside style hating does appear in BJJ and other grappling styles, but is MUCH rarer than in TMAs. The only discord I've come across has usually been related to money or business issues than to who has the best BJJ - the latter can be worked out easily in a few minutes on the mat without anyone having to get badly hurt. And everyone meets up regularly at comps, where everyone's BJJ gets tested. Just about everyone has friends on other teams and regularly go to other schools to train. My social life is WAY richer because of Jiu Jitsu. Wing Chun, not so much, except for people at the single school I train at.

Wing Chun is probably among the worst. Mainly because Wing Chun people spar with words and seldom interact with each other, let alone other stylists.

[Reborn Mantis]

Not asking you to teach me. I am asking you to back up what you know about sparring, as an ex amateur boxer I think I know what 'boxing sparring is". Thanks for showing me your ability to use google.
Sparring is about timing and movement, nothing else. You will also note the clip you provided me were individuals of the same weight category, etc. The clip I provided was of people with over 50lbs weight difference, hardly appropriate for what you're suggesting, again it is about use timing and movement. Also please look at the difference in gloves between the clips.
If you want full contact you need smoker events, step in the ring, etc. Like below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pidTtZqueXY

What you showed in your opening clip was people just wasting their time with inefficient nonsense.

They looked God awful and totally incapable of defending themselves in a self-defence situation.

[JPinAZ]

Yes.

You originally said "as an ex amateur boxer I think I know what 'boxing sparring is" - it is clear by the clip you have a lot more 'thinking' to do. And, it may cause one to call BS on your claimed experience as an amateur boxer - if this is really all you think sparring entails. Add to that the fact the you answered 'yes' when asked if what you demoed in the clip is your idea of the limits of what sparring is further proves the point.


Again I would prefer if you and your buddy provided clips rather than just text, otherwise to me you sound just like armchair warriors. The other clip I posted to you was to show my guys actually go and fight rather than talk. You can talk all you like on a forum, but you only know what works by stepping in the ring, my training is geared towards that. Many of the guys I train with are active MMA fighters and have a very different opinion to you on sparring.
Regarding ground game, I enter BJJ competitions, so again I leave that to the matt to figure out what works. I train at Marchelo Garcia BJJ school.

Anyway, I took the time to answer your questions and give a very detailed response and this is what I get in return?? Just cries for video and your 'resume' (which I didn't ask for). I didn't ask about the opinions of who you train with, or about your ground game nor where you train. I thought the discussion was on sparring - do you actually have an opinion of your own to share, or should I just go talk to the people you train with who actually might know what they are doing? (sarcasm implied)

BTW, if you don't like 'talk on a forum', maybe this isn't the place for you. This is a discussion forum, not youtube. While sharing videos here is perfectly fine and encouraged, it is not necessary to carry on a normal conversation. It's obvious you are not here to share views/opinions and just to 'wow' us with your incredible show of skills. If you can't take counter views or constructive criticism, maybe you should either keep your sparring vids to yourself next time - or grow some fkg thicker skin :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Typical WC sparring thread.
Some one posts a half assed video of crappy "sparring" then gets all prissy because people point out it sucks.
WTF?
Why post a video at all if you are not smart enough to take the critique it so obviously deserves?

[Wayfaring]

Yes. Again I would prefer if you and your buddy provided clips rather than just text, otherwise to me you sound just like armchair warriors. The other clip I posted to you was to show my guys actually go and fight rather than talk. You can talk all you like on a forum, but you only know what works by stepping in the ring, my training is geared towards that. Many of the guys I train with are active MMA fighters and have a very different opinion to you on sparring.
Regarding ground game, I enter BJJ competitions, so again I leave that to the matt to figure out what works. I train at Marchelo Garcia BJJ school.

I think if you look through the sticky on Wing Chun full contact fights you can see plenty of examples of my training and sparring partners. If the clip you posted was intended to show your guys "actually go and fight rather than talk" then it failed. There didn't seem like a whole lot of "actually go and fight" there at all. Which is why I posted a contrasting MMA sparring clip from a gym that was comparable to the mma gym I train at. Pariah MMA, Prime BJJ. Here's a clip of one of my main training partners in ground - see around 4:30 and 7:45 mark in this clip - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aS6RHS_ZgE We don't video private training sessions.

Anyway I don't want to argue semantics. Regarding stepping in the ring, are you saying you have a fight record? Where?

[boxerbilly]

In the first video. I can not comment on the chi sao. But as far as that sparring goes, it sucked ! I wish people would come at me like that. I may not know WC but I will suggest all you WC guys use those videos I posted as a model to use your art for fighting. I would have serious trouble against some of those guys in those videos. My boxing abilities would fall short . Of course I would not just box. But even still some of those guys would give me troubles. That was good WC in my ignorant of WC opinion

Now, as far as self defense stuff goes in WC I have no idea.

[wiz cool c]

The point is people don’t only throw in a fight and wear jackets perfect for beginning thrown and people don’t start fighting from their knees, but people will accept them cause they are the “in thing right now” How are they different then from starting hands touching. They are all style specific sparring.I have trained in bjj and judo and competed in them as well.

[anerlich]

The point is people don’t only throw in a fight and wear jackets perfect for beginning thrown and people don’t start fighting from their knees, but people will accept them cause they are the “in thing right now”. How are they different then from starting hands touching. They are all style specific sparring.

Judo has been practiced in gis for over 100 years, and BJJ in gis and without for decades. If that's the "in thing right now", its been like that for a LONG time.

Unless you're training MMA every session, and that is style specific too, then you're sparring "style specific".

I think actually most schools start chi sao with hands touching, but not sparring. These days many schools and cross train and introduce elements from other arts, do groundfighting, modern weapons, clinch work, etc.

You were saying that gi's etc. and starting with hands touching, style specific sparring were the cause of "inside style hating". I don't see how the premises can reach that conclusion and explained why.


I have trained in bjj and judo and competed in them as well.

Good for you. You will find many other people on this forum have done and continue to do the same.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Threads originator deleted this thread and I restored it.
One of the things that we as martial artist need to live up to is a code or responsibility and that means dealing with a "can of worms" that we open ( as is the case of this thread).
In the so-called "information age" people like having access to so much information and so much is out there ( good and bad) BUT some feel that if they don't like how things go ( ie: they don't go their way) they can simply delete.
That may be acceptable to some type of people but MA follow a code, be it wude or bushido and a huge part of those codes is to mean what you say, say what you mean and walk the walk as you talk the talk.
Deletion does NOT follow into this.

Thread will be closed however since, well, it seems the appropriate thing to do.

This has been a message from your friendly neighborhood moderation staff.