Rethinking the Crescent Kick

[Kellen Bassette]

Crescent kicks are used as dynamic stretches in northern Kung Fu, but they also show up in the forms and are given various fighting applications.
The outside crescent is a useful technique if you know how to make it work, but aside from stretching, a lot of people seem to have pretty vague ideas about applying inside crescent kicks. The most common methods I hear are: knock something out of someone's hand, knock down the guard, feint and hit them with something else. There doesn't even seem to be a strong consensus on whether one should hit with the heel, ball, sole or inside edge of the foot.

I've noticed that when many Thai boxers shadow box, they don't turn their hip over on the round kick, the way they would on a bag, pads or an opponent. The reason you often see this poor form, even from good fighters, in a style that puts so much emphasis on turning the hip over, is because it is very difficult to do in the air. When you throw a Thai style round kick in the air correctly, it has a tendency to spin you around, much like it would if you were to completely miss your opponent. I've often noticed in shadow boxing, round kicks start to look suspiciously like sloppy crescent kicks.

Round kicks are noticeably absent from most traditional Gong Fu forms. I'm not convinced that it is because these kicks were never used. I suspect it is because round kick can really ruin the "flow" of a form. Crescent kicks, on the other hand, look beautiful when thrown in the air, transitioning smoothly to the next movement. But have you ever thrown a real hard inside crescent on a heavy bag? Great way to jack up your knee....

This brings me to the fancy kicks. Tornado kicks are quite simple to do as a crescent kick, but those rare occasions when people use them to knock someone out, they are typically round kicks, hip turned over, connecting with the shin. Again, quite difficult to perform in the air, a tornado kick as a round kick, but pretty simple to throw against a heavy bag.

Even the Lotus kick, (jumping, spinning outside crescent,) seems suspicious. I've seen the application presented as a regular spinning heel, (wheel) kick. Makes me wonder why not just show it as a regular spinning crescent? Spinning heel requires the hip to turn over as well. A normal outside crescent can make sense from a fighting standpoint, but when you add the spin you would have to be so close to your opponent to land it that spinning seems overly impractical. Contrast with the spinning heel, which is far more powerful and thrown from ****her away. The spin makes more sense and is less risky. Of course, the lotus kick looks better and flows much better in forms. If you're going for the look of aerial kicks, flying, spinning heel is very difficult to throw smoothly in the air. It requires excellent flexibility, far more so than the crescent kick variant. It also is tougher to flow with into your next move.

So...the point I'm eventually making here....

What if the crescent kicks in forms are actually performance kicks that evolved from more practical fighting techniques? What if the entire strategy of the inside crescent kick is the re-engineering of what was once actually some version of a round kick?

Thoughts?

[bawang]

theres no such thing as a crescent kick. its purely a stretching exercise.

lotus kick is back kick. tornado kick is roundhouse.


Makes me wonder why not just show it as a regular spinning crescent?

old teacher with bad hips+ kicking was rarely used

once again this is why u cant learn kung fu from observing movement in the form, u have to know the oral transmission, otherwise the most simple thing is a mystery

[Kellen Bassette]

once again this is why u cant learn kung fu from observing movement in the form, u have to know the oral transmission, otherwise the most simple thing is a mystery

This is probably why so many applications seem so contrived, particularly in Shaolin.

[Jimbo]

I've used the outside crescent kick (but not the spinning version) in sparring many times. If I was using my right leg, it would come from a blind side over the opponent's right shoulder. Contact point was the outer edge of foot. It was hard to spot because:

A) Few people used them.

B). Your body is straight up.

C) You're closer than you are with most side-facing kicks like hook kicks.

D) It works very fluidly wth hand combinations.

I considered it a sparring kick, and not a "combat" kick. I also used hook kicks and spinning hook kicks (also IMO sparring as opposed to combative kicks), and preferred them. But the outside crescent also had its place. My guess as to why hook (or spinning heel) kicks were not a part of traditional forms is that those kicks were likely uncommon prior to the 1950s or 60s. Modern TKD's founder, Choi, was amazed when he first observed a man who began developing the spinning heel kick (straight-leg version) sometime in the mid-60s. Had anybody else thought of it and practiced it? Probably. The spin heel kick is basically a standing version of the reverse spinning leg sweep common in northern styles.

In the same way, high, single-leg multiple kicking combinations as made famous by Skipper Mullins and Bill Wallace were most likely non-existent prior to the 1960s. Around that same time in South Korea, Tan Tao-Liang began doing similar kicking combinations independent of Wallace and Mullins. This was geared for certain advantages in certain types of competitive sparring environments, as opposed to "street combat". The high round/side/hook kick combinations were also never seen in traditional forms, but became common in musical-type choreographed forms in the 1980s (or 70s).

It's also probable that high kicks in general were not used so liberally in most MA in decades prior to the mid-20th century. It would have been seen as sacrificing one's balance/mobility, and opening one's groin to attack.

As for the inside crescent, I've interpreted and used it as a low foot sweep. The foot is 'bladed' so that contact is made with the sole of the foot, not unlike the foot sweep in judo and in Shotokan karate. Sometimes the palm slap in the high kick was a slap to the head, combined with a grab and pull along with the sweep. Of course, a low inside foot sweep would look pretty bad and be awkward in a form, thus the high inside crescent with palm slap.

[Kellen Bassette]

I've used the outside crescent kick (but not the spinning version) in sparring many times.

I have too. The outside crescent is nice for a surprise attack at an awkward angle. I've used the sweep you mentioned often as well, but never associated it with an inside crescent kick.


My guess as to why hook (or spinning heel) kicks were not a part of traditional forms is that those kicks were likely uncommon prior to the 1950s or 60s. Modern TKD's founder, Choi, was amazed when he first observed a man who began developing the spinning heel kick (straight-leg version) sometime in the mid-60s. Had anybody else thought of it and practiced it? Probably. The spin heel kick is basically a standing version of the reverse spinning leg sweep common in northern styles.

I have seen spinning heel in Chinese forms, but I'm not certain if any of them were "old" forms or not. The lotus kick you see in Shaolin and modern wushu, done as an aerial kick, was almost certainly used for aesthetics. Spinning heel is a very old technique though. It was common in Muay Boran long before modern Muay Thai. I also suspect it existed in some older Gong Fu systems, but of course would never be as popular as more basic kicks.



In the same way, high, single-leg multiple kicking combinations as made famous by Skipper Mullins and Bill Wallace were most likely non-existent prior to the 1960s. Around that same time in South Korea, Tan Tao-Liang began doing similar kicking combinations independent of Wallace and Mullins. This was geared for certain advantages in certain types of competitive sparring environments, as opposed to "street combat". The high round/side/hook kick combinations were also never seen in traditional forms, but became common in musical-type choreographed forms in the 1980s (or 70s).

Definitely a lot of junk, snappy, multiple kick nonsense came to be from that era. Point sparring and creative kata from Karate and TKD that performed with a different flavor than Chinese Taolu helped bring us that mess.

[Jimbo]

I have too. The outside crescent is nice for a surprise attack at an awkward angle. I've used the sweep you mentioned often as well, but never associated it with an inside crescent kick.



I have seen spinning heel in Chinese forms, but I'm not certain if any of them were "old" forms or not. The lotus kick you see in Shaolin and modern wushu, done as an aerial kick, was almost certainly used for aesthetics. Spinning heel is a very old technique though. It was common in Muay Boran long before modern Muay Thai. I also suspect it existed in some older Gong Fu systems, but of course would never be as popular as more basic kicks.



Definitely a lot of junk, snappy, multiple kick nonsense came to be from that era. Point sparring and creative kata from Karate and TKD that performed with a different flavor than Chinese Taolu helped bring us that mess.

Thanks, I was not aware of the spin heel in Muay Boran.

Regarding the snappy multi-kicks, I got the chance to spar Bill "Superfoot" Wallace during a 5-day kickboxing seminar he taught in 1982. His kicks were very good and he could hurt you with them, especially his side and hook kicks. Not hurt like, say, a Muay Thai kick, or other full-bodied kick, but more like certain punches. But oddly enough, I felt his punches were much more dangerous than his kicks, in particular, his left hook. I was more wary of that than his left leg. I have lots of respect for Wallace. He always admitted his style was geared for sport fighting.

I've seen some point tag fighters attempting very poor renditions of Wallace-style kicks that were little more than foot-wagging and touching, i.e., no 'whip' to them.

Sorry for taking the discussion OT...

[Kellen Bassette]

Thanks, I was not aware of the spin heel in Muay Boran.

Regarding the snappy multi-kicks, I got the chance to spar Bill "Superfoot" Wallace during a 5-day kickboxing seminar he taught in 1982. His kicks were very good and he could hurt you with them, especially his side and hook kicks. Not hurt like, say, a Muay Thai kick, or other full-bodied kick, but more like certain punches. But oddly enough, I felt his punches were much more dangerous than his kicks, in particular, his left hook. I was more wary of that than his left leg. I have lots of respect for Wallace. He always admitted his style was geared for sport fighting.

I've seen some point tag fighters attempting very poor renditions of Wallace-style kicks that were little more than foot-wagging and touching, i.e., no 'whip' to them.

Sorry for taking the discussion OT...

I don't doubt Wallace could use them well...I know a guy with a TKD background who is excellent with the front kick to roundhouse and low round to high round, with the chambering, snappy kicks. He makes them work and hurt, but you do see a lot of people just showboating by throwing all sorts of kicks off one leg with no real power, I don't much care for that.

Take it wherever you want, better than talking to myself. :p

By the way, that's pretty cool you got to spar Wallace, seems like you've met almost everyone from the era.

[Jimbo]

I don't doubt Wallace could use them well...I know a guy with a TKD background who is excellent with the front kick to roundhouse and low round to high round, with the chambering, snappy kicks. He makes them work and hurt, but you do see a lot of people just showboating by throwing all sorts of kicks off one leg with no real power, I don't much care for that.

Take it wherever you want, better than talking to myself. :p

By the way, that's pretty cool you got to spar Wallace, seems like you've met almost everyone from the era.

I wasn't even close to meeting everyone from that era, but I do feel fortunate to have gotten the opportunies to meet the people I did. There were more instances of being at the same functions/events than formal meetings. One person I wish I could have met and sparred with back then is the late Joe Lewis. He would've whipped me, too, but it would have been a great experience.

I agree with you on the people who showboat kicks. Wallace kicked with a purpose, as opposed to just throwing for flash.

[boxerbilly]

theres no such thing as a crescent kick. its purely a stretching exercise.

I take it you never studied Tae Kwon Do.

[Kellen Bassette]

I take it you never studied Tae Kwon Do.

He means in orthydox Gong Fu. TKD gets their crescent kicks from Japanese Karate. Crescent kicks do show up sparingly in the older Okinawan kata, presumably for the same reasons they are in Chinese forms.

[Jimbo]

Kellen, when you mentioned some Muay Thai fighters doing their round kick more as a crescent kick, I first noticed that when I watched the late Alex Gong fighting on TV. His round kick was basically an inside crescent kick hitting with the shin. Or at least that was my observation. And this was during his fights, as opposed to shadow boxing.

[YouKnowWho]

The crescent kick can not only be used in offense, it can also be used in defense as well. The outside crescent kick is a basic training in Shuai Chiao. It can be used to escape a lot of different leg attacks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qORLtBJyMyY&feature=youtu.be

[Kellen Bassette]

The crescent kick can not only be used in offense, it can also be used in defense as well. The outside crescent kick is a basic training in Shuai Chiao. It can be used to escape a lot of different leg attacks.

Do you have a similar use for the inside crescent kick?

[YouKnowWho]

Do you have a similar use for the inside crescent kick?

If your opponent tries to hook your right leading leg from

- outside in (cut), you can use outside crescent kick to escape it.
- inside out (hook), you can use inside crescent kick to escape it.

Since the "leg escape" is "conservative" approach, the more "aggressive" approach will be:

If your opponent tries to hook your right leading leg from

- outside in (cut), you will use bow-arrow stance to resist, get his cutting leg, and attack his back standing leg.
- inside out (hook), you will raise your knee, lift his hooking leg, and then attack his back standing leg.

[Kellen Bassette]

Kellen, when you mentioned some Muay Thai fighters doing their round kick more as a crescent kick, I first noticed that when I watched the late Alex Gong fighting on TV. His round kick was basically an inside crescent kick hitting with the shin. Or at least that was my observation. And this was during his fights, as opposed to shadow boxing.

I only noticed it in shadow boxing, not fighting, but there's actually too many variations to list for the MT round kick. All different angles and methods, though many of them have fallen out of favor for the classic version of the round kick.

[boxerbilly]

He means in orthydox Gong Fu. TKD gets their crescent kicks from Japanese Karate. Crescent kicks do show up sparingly in the older Okinawan kata, presumably for the same reasons they are in Chinese forms.

Sorry, I don't think like that.

I have used crescent kicks successfully. For many beginners, it is the only kicks they can hope of making head height. Inner and outer. If you keep your leg sort of bent and extend it around impact you can increase the pop. Some say it is bad for the knees. Never bothered me. They also can transition into axe kicks and I have done the same with spinning variations.

By the way, I thought Chinese styles called these whirlwind kicks?

But anyplace outside of a TKD/karate/maybe kung fu setting I don't see them being a viable kick. I prefer inner edge shovel kicks to the shin, low sides and toe kicks or whole flat of boot. Belly button and below.

[YouKnowWho]

You should use your

- leg to sweep your opponent's leg than to hit his head.
- fist to punch his head than to hit his foot.

You should use your leg to do your leg job and use your hand to do your hand job. It makes no sense to reverse that order. The reason is simple. You leg is "closer" to your opponent's leg and your hand is "closer" to his head.

This is why I have never liked the wrestling "single leg" and "double legs". The Shuai Chiao "front cut" is much more logical solution.

You use your

- leg to control your opponent's leg, and
- arm to control his head.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYqF-H_1YUs

[Kellen Bassette]

By the way, I thought Chinese styles called these whirlwind kicks?


The whirlwind kick/tornado kick is a type of crescent kick, just with more complex footwork. (You also have this in TKD.)

Crescent kicks are definitely in traditional Chinese forms, but the Kung Fu forms do strange things sometimes. For instance in northern forms, they do a front straight leg swing, (like a cheerleaders kick,) which would be very impractical in fighting. I have seen people interpret this as a type of sweep, a knee strike or a heel push kick. All of that seems absurd, since all those techniques are already represented, more realistically in the forms. I think it just is what it looks like. A leg stretch. Stretch kicks are important to northern systems so it's not really surprising they would put the exercise in a form.

I agree with Bawang that outside and inside crescents in the forms are meant to be stretches. I think people may have later learned to make them work in sparring. I'm not so sure of his statement about the tornado kick being a roundhouse. He probably read something somewhere that made him arrive at that conclusion, if he did, I wish he would share...

[Kellen Bassette]

This is why I have never liked the wrestling "single leg" and "double legs". The Shuai Chiao "front cut" is much more logical solution.


Do you feel the same way about shuai jiao/Chinese single leg and the ankle pick?

[boxerbilly]

The whirlwind kick/tornado kick is a type of crescent kick, just with more complex footwork. (You also have this in TKD.)

Crescent kicks are definitely in traditional Chinese forms, but the Kung Fu forms do strange things sometimes. For instance in northern forms, they do a front straight leg swing, (like a cheerleaders kick,) which would be very impractical in fighting. I have seen people interpret this as a type of sweep, a knee strike or a heel push kick. All of that seems absurd, since all those techniques are already represented, more realistically in the forms. I think it just is what it looks like. A leg stretch. Stretch kicks are important to northern systems so it's not really surprising they would put the exercise in a form.

I agree with Bawang that outside and inside crescents in the forms are meant to be stretches. I think people may have later learned to make them work in sparring. I'm not so sure of his statement about the tornado kick being a roundhouse. He probably read something somewhere that made him arrive at that conclusion, if he did, I wish he would share...

Thank you Kellen.

Thank you Bawang.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you feel the same way about shuai jiao/Chinese single leg and the ankle pick?
For the Chinese single leg, you only use one hand to reach to your opponent's leg while use the other hand to reach to his shoulder (or neck). You don't have to drop as low and since your upper arm can deal with your opponent's arms, this will make you much safer comparing to use both hands to reach to your opponent's leg/legs and expose your head for your opponent's both hands. IMO, the wrestling single leg and double legs may not consider the striking environment in the first place.

How to use your arm to jam your opponent's arms and disable his arms function is a "plus" for Chinese single leg such as:

1. 扣 (kou) - knee seizing
2. 掏 (Tao) - inner knee seizing
3. 错 (Cuo) - crisis-cross
4. ...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnzdQIqY4jU

[bawang]

I agree with Bawang that outside and inside crescents in the forms are meant to be stretches. I think people may have later learned to make them work in sparring. I'm not so sure of his statement about the tornado kick being a roundhouse. He probably read something somewhere that made him arrive at that conclusion, if he did, I wish he would share...

common sense

but if ur degree of kung fu related brain dmg is very severe, the fist poems in multiple northern styles state that

in leg swing (lotus kick) the opponent is behind you. or you fake a right hook and pretend to overreach, with your back facing the opponent. alternative name is dragon swings tail, which makes the use very clear

in leg chopper (tornado kick) you chop your opponent like a sword chopping a horses leg. when he raises his knee to block, you will grab the knee for single leg called pulling tiger tail. if ur very strong u can unbalance him simply by landing before he does and right hook his face. this is called boy worships buddha.

both kicks are trained by iron broom skill which conditions the shin and back of the leg.

[RenDaHai]

The corresponding shou fa of the cresent kick is vital, but in application;

INSIDE
Kick at mid level, kidneys, kick impacts during UPWARDS phase, NOT accross, kick with ball of foot, turn foot inside.

Use the ball of your foot to do an uppercut into the opponents kidneys or hips, do it close, from outside aiming upwards (hence cresent shape) hand movement is vital, do not change shape of upper body, leg straight.

Thats the inside cresent kick. If you kick ACCROSS you will destroy your own knee, hit upwards with ball of foot. Works great with shoes on. Try it on a bag now, can make heavy bag jump. do NOT hit accross will hurt knee.

Standard hand, use right hand grab his left hand on outside, pull hand down and accross him, kick with right leg into his ribs/hips/kidneys where you can, left hand slaps his face, more to distract him from foot.

Body square with respect to opponent

OUTSIDE
kick DOWN on top of something a bit like an axe but using outside blade, body is side on with respect to opponent.

[Kellen Bassette]

common sense

but if ur degree of kung fu related brain dmg is very severe, the fist poems in multiple northern styles state that

in leg swing (lotus kick) the opponent is behind you. or you fake a right hook and pretend to overreach, with your back facing the opponent. alternative name is dragon swings tail, which makes the use very clear

in leg chopper (tornado kick) you chop your opponent like a sword chopping a horses leg. when he raises his knee to block, you will grab the knee for single leg called pulling tiger tail. if ur very strong u can unbalance him simply by landing before he does and right hook his face. this is called boy worships buddha.

both kicks are trained by iron broom skill which conditions the shin and back of the leg.

Brain damage is minimal. Sword chopping does sound like a round kick, iron leg does train the shins. Makes sense...
Just makes you expect to see more people conditioning a round kick....

[Kellen Bassette]

The corresponding shou fa of the cresent kick is vital, but in application;

INSIDE
Kick at mid level, kidneys, kick impacts during UPWARDS phase, NOT accross, kick with ball of foot, turn foot inside.

Use the ball of your foot to do an uppercut into the opponents kidneys or hips, do it close, from outside aiming upwards (hence cresent shape) hand movement is vital, do not change shape of upper body, leg straight.

Thats the inside cresent kick. If you kick ACCROSS you will destroy your own knee, hit upwards with ball of foot. Works great with shoes on. Try it on a bag now, can make heavy bag jump. do NOT hit accross will hurt knee.

Standard hand, use right hand grab his left hand on outside, pull hand down and accross him, kick with right leg into his ribs/hips/kidneys where you can, left hand slaps his face, more to distract him from foot.

Body square with respect to opponent

OUTSIDE
kick DOWN on top of something a bit like an axe but using outside blade, body is side on with respect to opponent.

This is the most satisfying explanation of applying an inside crescent kick I've ever heard....except for forgoing it for a round kick...:p
Hitting upwards is far better than hitting across, I feel like I should have known that...

[bawang]

its been 3 yrs lol how could u possibly not know this

in 3 yrs u can get a phd degree lol

[RenDaHai]

This is the most satisfying explanation of applying an inside crescent kick I've ever heard....except for forgoing it for a round kick...:p
Hitting upwards is far better than hitting across, I feel like I should have known that...

Upwards force cannot be absorbed with movement, you take the brunt of the impact, the force has nowhere to dissipate so it hurts.

It is different from roundkick in the body mechanic. For a roundkick one must tilt the body, it is longer range and generally easier to perceive. The cresent can come from a seemingly static upper body and can be done from closer range while the hands are still working and distracting. Traditional forms also contain round kicks (a lot of different types of roundhouse). Round kicks are harder (literally) to block than cresents. Cresent is faster.

In traditional styles it is common for the opponent to be completely side on to you (inherited from weapons fighting) in such a position the cresent can also be used to attack the bladder or solar plexus or on the other side, spine. People don't use the complete side on strategy as much today.

[Kellen Bassette]

its been 3 yrs lol how could u possibly not know this

in 3 yrs u can get a phd degree lol

I don't know man...maybe the brain damage is worse than I thought. I've been punched in the head a lot during the past 3 years....

[SoCo KungFu]

The corresponding shou fa of the cresent kick is vital, but in application;

INSIDE
Kick at mid level, kidneys, kick impacts during UPWARDS phase, NOT accross, kick with ball of foot, turn foot inside.

Use the ball of your foot to do an uppercut into the opponents kidneys or hips, do it close, from outside aiming upwards (hence cresent shape) hand movement is vital, do not change shape of upper body, leg straight.

Thats the inside cresent kick. If you kick ACCROSS you will destroy your own knee, hit upwards with ball of foot. Works great with shoes on. Try it on a bag now, can make heavy bag jump. do NOT hit accross will hurt knee.

Standard hand, use right hand grab his left hand on outside, pull hand down and accross him, kick with right leg into his ribs/hips/kidneys where you can, left hand slaps his face, more to distract him from foot.

Body square with respect to opponent

OUTSIDE
kick DOWN on top of something a bit like an axe but using outside blade, body is side on with respect to opponent.

This is how I've seen inside crescent from standing position in forms I have learned. Although, there's only 1 time any do standing inside crescent at anything above knee height. In the set (straight form) it is an attack on the kidney. Otherwise, there often a jumping inside crescent that chains into either tiger steals the heart or hook punch (huen choi?). In that case, the kick strikes on the way down with the heel first, though I agree with bawang and prefer to use a round kick in application, personal preference.

Outside crescent is more common, we call it eye cutting kick. The name makes its application obvious, not meant to be a hard kick, just a whip across the brow with the point of the foot. Its used exclusively after setting up with the hands to close their gate.

[SoCo KungFu]

For instance in northern forms, they do a front straight leg swing, (like a cheerleaders kick,) which would be very impractical in fighting.

Can you post an image of this? I'm not sure what you mean. My kungfu exposure is almost exclusively northern (mantis though, so very little in kicks above waist) and I've not seen this type of action. I have seen it in southern kung fu, specifically hung kuen's Lau Gar form.

[Kellen Bassette]

Can you post an image of this? I'm not sure what you mean. My kungfu exposure is almost exclusively northern (mantis though, so very little in kicks above waist) and I've not seen this type of action. I have seen it in southern kung fu, specifically hung kuen's Lau Gar form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRFKuhL8xc

0:28

Do you use the crescent kicks much in your sparring?

[mickey]

Greetings,

Your sense of the opponent and target areas will determine the kick as RenDaHai so ably demonstrated. So, if all you see is a bunch of stretches, it is understandable that there would be no value to them. The aforementioned was my best David Jamieson imitation.

The inside crescent kick crosses the following target areas, foot instep, knee, groin, floating ribs, I think you get the idea. Then you have to consider the contact area of the foot: toe, ball, instep, heel, etc.

Crescent kicks have been used for leg deflections, an art unto itself that is slowly dying out. Tornado/whirlwind kicks and butterfly kicks can be used as counters to certain throws.

Kicking combinations have been in use in TCMA for a very long time.

Do check out Wang Xinde's books. They are a very good representation of TCMA kicking methods.

mickey

[Kellen Bassette]

Greetings,

Your sense of the opponent and target areas will determine the kick as RenDaHai so ably demonstrated. So, if all you see is a bunch of stretches, it is understandable that there would be no value to them. The aforementioned was my best David Jamieson imitation.


Good impression, I like it. I am going to retest the kick based on the explanation by RDH and then Soco. Striking upwards opposed to across would open up a lot more potential targets that wouldn't have been practical with the weaker version drawing all its' power from the leg swing.

[SoCo KungFu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRFKuhL8xc

0:28

Do you use the crescent kicks much in your sparring?

Ah. Yeah so I won't comment on Shaolin. I really only know one Shaolin set but its very short (basically 2 roads and a couple moves). Does not have that kick. It has one knee per road, typical front snap kick and inside crescent (so actually I know 2 sets with that kick). In this case its in a combo; trip (similar to tan tui hanging stance application, meaning really close range) -> inside crescent follow (because really close, hands in app are for grappling) -> grappling hands for arm bar with stamp/trip (common technique in mantis, this time done with previous kicking leg).

No, I don't often use crescents. But that is also because I don't often kick above waist. When I do, its almost always push kick or round kick. The eye cutting kick I previously mentioned isn't bad, but the kick itself isn't that forceful. Its a distraction. I have an old kung fu brother that has used it to win sparring tourneys, usually using it to set up a cross or hook. But I'm a southpaw, so for me to outside crescent following a closed gate means I'm either kicking with my rear leg which isn't very good as crescent or I'm anticipating their cross. In either case, I prefer round kicks. But 90% of my kicks in sparring are either leg kicks or mantis leg cutting. Anything else means I'm probably having to chase my opponent or I'm using distance myself, so crescents really aren't all that useful for me.

It should also be said I guess that most of my sparring is from MMA. And I favor close to clinch range. Crescent kicks (or wheel kicks, hook kicks etc.) usually mean getting dumped on my back end. So I don't really do them. The majority of my leg techniques are for disrupting balance/toppling/tripping. Mantis was supposedly built off northern long fist, but in this day its evolved to something different. Northern kung fu stereotypes don't really apply well. Most leg techs are low. Knees often preferred to kicks. And kicks aren't chambered like you typically see. So I can't really comment on other kung fu I guess.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ah. Yeah so I won't comment on Shaolin.

I've also seen that in Eagle Claw, (though I don't know where the forms originate?) And of course modern wushu...



When I do, its almost always push kick or round kick.


I kick quite a bit, but those are my go tos, along with the side thrust kick. Also like to check the leg with a cross kick.
Almost everything else I use sparingly, as a surprise, or just something to throw when I feel comfortable. If I'm under a lot of pressure I'll resort mostly to a leg kick.



Northern kung fu stereotypes don't really apply well. Most leg techs are low. Knees often preferred to kicks. And kicks aren't chambered like you typically see. So I can't really comment on other kung fu I guess.

A lot of diversity out there for sure...

[Cataphract]

Northern and southern Kung Fu, Silat and Karate people are doing crescent, lotus, crossed body kicks. The Yang TaiChi form has several. They're kicking their open palm in the forms. It is really awkward to roundhouse your own palm. How likely is it crescent kicks are only meant as crippled roundhouses when every other form has a crescent kick?

Yang Chengfu explains them as takedowns to the flank or chest while dragging the opposite arm, possibly after an attack from behind.

[bawang]

hi guyse how to is kick wark

[Cataphract]

hi guyse how to is kick wark

You actually don't have a clue, do you?

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v325wdgoFH4
hi guyse how to is kick wark

[wolfen]

According to this article in Taekwondo there is no such thing as an Inside Crescent or Outside Crescent Kick,
The "My outside arcing to opponent" or "outside to inside" is a crescent kick (bandal chagi).
The "My inside arcing to opponent or "inside to outside" is a hooking kick (golcho chag") or perhaps (My vertical standing inside arcing to opponent)



Confusing Terminology: Crescent Kick, Vertical Kick, Hooking Kick, Hook Kick (http://sooshimkwan.blogspot.ca/2010/12/confusing-terminology-crescent-kick.html)

Some common kicks that are confused include the crescent kick and inward vertical kick, and the hooking kick, outward vertical kick and the hook kick, and add to that the reverse turning kick and reverse hook kick.

The crescent kick (bandal chagi) and hooking kick (geolchyeo chagi)][/B] are both defensive techniques in ITF Taekwon-Do; in other words, these kicks are used to block an opponent's attack.

The following points may help to clear up some confusion with regard to these kicks. A crescent kick is always done with an inward arc. There is no such thing as an outward crescent kick. An “outward crescent kick” is basically a hooking kick. Similarly, a hooking kick is always done with an outward arc. The crescent kick and hooking kick are only used as blocking techniques. They are not offensive techniques. The mix-up comes in because these kicks are often confused with vertical kicks.

And then it gets really clear :rolleyes: the nearly the same motions are now vertical kick (Sewo Chagi) when used as attacks.

10060
Inward Vertical Kick


Vertical kicks are similar to the crescent kick and hooking kick as they also move in a somewhat arc motion. The chief difference is that vertical kicks are offensive techniques; in other words, they are used for attacking and not blocking. The vertical kick (sewo chagi) gets its name because the foot is held upward, i.e. vertically; although it actually strikes the target in a horizontal fashion. Imagine keeping your hand vertically and then slapping someone horizontally through the face; now translate that image to a kick.
The vertical kick can be done in an inward motion, known as an inward vertical kick, or outward motion, known as an outward vertical kick. For the outward vertical kick the foot sword is used as the attacking tool, while the reverse foot sword—that is the area on the inverted side of the foot sword—is used as the attacking tool for the inward vertical kick. Unlike the crescent kick and hooking kick which are usually done low and middle section, the vertical kicks can be done at any height, but usually at middle and high sections. Practitioners often use the vertical kick at high section to attack the opponent's head, slapping them through the face with the foot.


So the outward Vertical kick is like an inside to outside crescent kick
and the inward vertical kick is like an outside to inside crescent kick
.. and he goes on to say there is confusion between Hooking Kick and Hook kick


I have a hardcover copy of Taekwondo By General Choi Hong Hi (Pub ITF).
Says exactly the same as the above by inference. Only the Crescent Kick and a Hooking kick ("golcho chagi" different spelling) are defined and illustrated as such.
And the vertical kick is defined and illustrated as above and is inside to outside and the outside to inside is simply called "Reverse Footsword".
The footsword is the blade of the flat foot.

.....


Outside versus Inside

Now to make matters worse, scanning the internet, I see inside and outside crescent kicks definitions are reversed by some people.
Some say one kick is the inside crescent kick and others demo that same kick and say it is the outside crescent kick

Taekwondo Outside Crescent Kick Tutorial (Kwonkicker)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXqJmBzT6PQ (Outside to inside)

[I]Taekwondo Crescent Kick Tutorial (Outside) for MMA & Kickboxing | 60fps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD8l2Vu0GgI


2 crescent kick single leg defense
(In this video he say's "inside crescent kick" technique looks a little dubious to me or the demo is not well done )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBPXwGSxT0M

They say "Outside to inside kick and refer to it as "Outside Kick".

Mirror Universe

Crescent Kick Tutorial - Inside & Outside (Standing, Spinning & Jumping)
(In the first 20 seconds: both kicks definitions are shown)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2lLEd-YH8

Outside Crescent Kick - Hapkido
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXZClxTAhmk

Steve Sexton teaching Hapkido inside crescent Kick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ngzxkrzw14

Outside Crescent Kick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXZClxTAhmk
some of them say "outside to inside kick and refer to it as "inside kick"

So actually you might be discussing outside crescent and someone is thinking inside crescent.

And so on and so on. The latter looks more common , there were some more examples of the former.
--------------------------------------------------------

There is more power can be generated with the crescent kick and/or vertical inside kick than the hooking kick and/or vertical outside kick because the weight of the body as a unit can be thrown in with it over a longer distance. (Using the ITF terminology).

[boxerbilly]

As with any developing language. Terminology can change. I have long since forgot almost all the limited Korean I knew as part of learning TKD. Aside from tradition it served no purpose to know another language to do any of it.

My long ago Sa bum nim .

https://www.facebook.com/mark.mccarthy.330

[wolfen]

So my point about "confusing terminology' is that iwe can't be sre what peopel mena if they just usse teh labes "outside or insid e crescent kick. t woudl be better if peopel descibed the kick as well as using the lavbel so we can understnd which kick they are talking about if we are not wathcing a demo.

mIy

[wolfen]

So my point about "confusing terminology' is that I'm not certain what people mean if they just use the labels "outside" or "inside" crescent kick. It would be better if people describe the kick as well as using the label so I can understated which kick they are talking about if we are not watching a demo.


Circular low kicks
Here are two low circular low kicks from Hapkido They are both using the idea of kicking out at an angle varying degrees from center and circling back in the same motion as the high kicks , the crescent and inside vertical kick.

Hapkido low kicks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2VEcqryTnI

At :48 to 1:02 seconds he shows the low Hapkido inside to outside hooking kick usually done into the groin or thigh and circling out. The Hapkido kick connects with the thigh into the groin or between groin and knee and the opponent's leg collapses outward. If you kick in and outwards the opponent is unbalanced. This can be done in standing grappling/grabbing. It is very effective. You have be be very careful with practicing with a partner not to endanger their knee as the leg buckles outwards.


At 1:24 to 1:40 seconds he shows the circular low outside to inside kick coming back in and striking the back of the opponents leg or knee, So it's outside to inside but come back against the back of the knee with heel. Again it is very effective in taking down the opponent. In partner practice the sole of the foot is used against the back of the knee rather than the ball as the ball is too dangerous. I know one guy got taken down with the ball of the heel in the back of his knee and it damaged his knee for a long term problem Put a wedge at the back of the knee and it has no place to go when the leg is compressed, it must be damaged, dislocate or break.


So both are short range or short range grabbing or grapplings. They are more for a viscous kind of self defense than for sparring. They are in the basic idea of standing vertically with kicks going out to the side and circling at the end point . Thee are just done low as compared to high.



Lotus Kick Mantis Boxing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H5BIBrXvMY

Here the demonstrator show something like the low hooking kick of Hapkido from inside to out - but he actually kicks the groin and doesn't circle outwards to unbalance his opponent . He shows the outward hook motion in demonstration but he I think he is more intent on the kick rather than unbalancing.

[boxerbilly]

Well yes. I see your point. I think most people posting in this thread are of the same mind with the inside outside cresent kick. Perhaps it is a generic English term and being English it can have many meanings- ****nyms , LOL. But you are in fact correct and I agree fully.

[wolfen]

Well yes. I see your point. I think most people posting in this thread are of the same mind with the inside outside cresent kick. Perhaps it is a generic English term and being English it can have many meanings- ****nyms , LOL. But you are in fact correct and I agree fully.


It was because I didn't know which definition the people in this thread were using that I researched the subject.

Kung Fu : Double Outside Crescent Kick


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_nrurY1Xg

I think in ITF this would be called a outside vertical kick.