13 Hands

[PalmStriker]

:) Hung Kuen style is not my inclination but I must admit I like the mix when it comes to TCMA Wing Chun delivery system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUxcpd7JuxU

[boxerbilly]

John Allen in his Q/A sessions stated Wing Chun was a power art.

[PalmStriker]

:) I would like to know if the WingChun practiced by Master Lam Yan has been passed down through his lineage dating back to the Red Boat Opera period of development in Southern China. I would imagine there would have been plenty of opportunity for the anti-Ching Masters to combine forces/style/technique considering a common cause. For many practitioners of various WingChun styles the so-called "hard style" Wing Chun presented in the video collection may seem just that... but to a practitioner of Southern Fist in general , the WingChun of Hung Kuen Master Lam Yan does not appear to be overly "hard" as seen in the practices/techniques of a number of external style MA's. (including Hung Gar). http://wingchunkuen.me/2013/06/10/strength-and-the-martial-artist-dr-charles-i-staley-and-john-r-allen/#more-975

[PalmStriker]

:)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CngHS5lGFIo

[PalmStriker]

:) Reference: http://practicalhungkyun.com/2013/03/why-is-hung-kyun-called-hung-kyun/

[PalmStriker]

:) WingChun as ART :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56Mu66MqQnA

[PalmStriker]

:) Narrow Stance/Short Bridge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IAf3my_l24

[sanjuro_ronin]

I found Southern mantis complemented my Hung Kuen better than the WC I learned.
Of course, personalization of systems is just that, personal.
Hung Kuen is an infighting system that operates with "long arm" power generation in the beginning and intermediate stages.
In the advance stage it is far more up close, more "in your face" and that is when experience in a system like WC ( or southern mantis ) comes in handy.
The transition is easier IMO.

[PalmStriker]

:) Due to the offensive attack mobility of Southern Mantis I can see how it would compliment a more defensive art. I would like to see what the old village Hung Kuen style may have looked like apart from the TigerCrane transformation of Wong Fei Hung. That would have been the practices on the Red Boats that influenced the development of WingChun.

[PalmStriker]

:) Due to the offensive attack mobility of Southern Mantis I can see how it would compliment a more defensive art but would bond with the more offensive one. I would like to see what the old village Hung Kuen style may have looked like apart from the TigerCrane transformation of Wong Fei Hung. That would have been the practices on the Red Boats that influenced the development of WingChun. http://www.chowgar.london/southern-praying-mantis-kung-fu-history/

[sanjuro_ronin]

:) Due to the offensive attack mobility of Southern Mantis I can see how it would compliment a more defensive art but would bond with the more offensive one. I would like to see what the old village Hung Kuen style may have looked like apart from the TigerCrane transformation of Wong Fei Hung. That would have been the practices on the Red Boats that influenced the development of WingChun.

Village HK has a couple of versions that I have seen, typically higher stances, shorter hands, things like that.
Styles evolve to suit the circumstances of whoever is passing it one at any given time.
It's not a question of better or worse or anything like that, just differences that happened to suit the occasions.

[PalmStriker]

:) Agree. I will see if I can find a link to a village art vid. http://www.fonghungga.com/tang-fong/

[YouKnowWho]

At 8.00, you can only see his arms movement but you don't see his body movement, is that the correct way to punch? The speed vs. power trade off is always a big concern. When you try to throw fast punching combo, you may not have enough time to "compress to the maximum" and "release to the maximum" in order to generate the maximum power. You can only generate partial power.

On the other hand, if you try to generate maximum power in every punch, your punch combo will be slow.

This is why some styles (such as Baji, Chen Taiji, XYLH) emphasize on power generation, some styles (such as praying mantis, WC) emphasize on speed generation.

It's easy to attack

- speed generation from the power generation point of view.
- power generation from the speed generation point of view.

Which way is better? You have to be able to do both. That mean you have to "cross train". For example, if you have trained both Baji and WC, your CMA understanding will be more complete.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUxcpd7JuxU

[sanjuro_ronin]

At 8.00, you can only see his arms movement but you don't see his body movement, is that correct way of punching? The speed vs. power trade off is always a big concern. When you try to throw fast punching combo, you may not have enough "compress" and "release" to generate the maximum power. You can only generate partial power. Sometime this can not convince people that you have enough "knock down power" that your whole body is behind your punch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUxcpd7JuxU

The reality of speed combos is that you either sacrifice some power ( since your hands always move faster than your body so your body will not be behind your strikes all the time) or you sacrifice some speed BETWEEN strikes.
Since the speed of the strike is, IMO, more important than the speed of the combinations, I prefer to sacrifice speed between strikes rather than sacrifice the power of the strikes.
What I tend to do then is to do combos of no more than 3 or 4 shots.
Studies have shown that speed and power both decrease after the 3-4 strikes, with the most powerful strike being the second one.

One of these studies can be found in the book "Dynamic karate" by Nakayama.

[YouKnowWho]

What I tend to do then is to do combos of no more than 3 or 4 shots.

This is why when I throw 3 punches, I don't punch like the WC "chain punch" that each and every punch all have the same speed and the same power. I prefer to throw punches in different speed and different power,

- some with body rotation for power,
- some without body rotation for speed.

This way, the "body method" can be added into. Again, in order to do so, I need cross training.

[PalmStriker]

:) Reference (Blast from the Past): http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?1839-Hung-Gar-wubei-vilage-style-ha-say-fu-etc-Anyone-know-anything-about-these

[PalmStriker]

:) VID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzsuL5p_hxs

[PalmStriker]

:) Old Style Wing Chun 13Hands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E98f1aNV4jU

[PalmStriker]

:) YIK KAM Red Boat Style: http://banchungwingchun.com/

[PalmStriker]

:) 3 HANDS "poison scissors" : http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_eller01.html

[PalmStriker]

:) GrandMaster Chu Chong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP2vrXCsqj8

[PalmStriker]

:) Southern Boxing /translation: http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot.com/2013/02/southern-boxing-close-fighting-summary.html

[PalmStriker]

:) Wing Chun Red Sand Palm/Spear Hand: http://ewingchun.com/wiki/yuen-kay-san

[PalmStriker]

Master Yuen Kay San: http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/wing-chun-chinese-documentation.html

[PalmStriker]

:) RED BOAT DUMMY ORIGINS: http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2015/07/02/the-red-boats-and-the-nautical-origins-of-the-wooden-dummy/

[PalmStriker]

:) As a researcher in an unrelated field I am used to looking at stop-frame in vids to detect signals/manifestations in "high-speed" subject matter. So, looking at the top photo presented in the link above I can clarify a few things having used magnification to study the photo. First of all, because of the date of the photo, the subjects posed for the shot and had to stay frozen in place for a non-blurred result in development of the negative. Notice the left hand blocking wooden "arm" and right hand delivering punch to torso of dummy. Practitioner is in classic WC high "goat catching stance". Feet are both turned inward (you can see this by how the right foot to toe "disappears" from view), One leg, left, is NOT off the ground. What you may think is the sole of the left foot is a lower "arm" protruding from dummy trunk, where there is some wound rigging hanging from this area also. What looks like a leg/thigh lifted is just part of the boat/background that is in water(effect seen on left in photo). * Note the hair on the two persons in photo is grown out and tied in with braid (unshaven) which may have been in keeping with the Opera Troupe on-stage presence. Also note the rounded top of the dummy trunk that if set in a cradle would keep it from binding as it revolved, the dummy being of an unnecessary height for MA work-out alone. Both of them are wearing their best attire (belted) and are not typical sailors dressed for cruising the Pearl Delta for long hours.

[PalmStriker]

:)Lineage Bridge: http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2015/07/17/lineage-and-social-analysis-in-martial-arts-studies/

[PalmStriker]

:) A particular SLT form, Lineage transfer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hHsWwx0sOE

[kung fu fighter]

:) A particular SLT form, Lineage transfer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hHsWwx0sOE

This is Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nung SLT Form

[PalmStriker]

:) yes, but evolving quite differently. As you can see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKAcCvL8ZE

[kung fu fighter]

:) yes, but evolving quite differently. As you can see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKAcCvL8ZE

What specificly are you referring to in the form as "evolving quite differently"

This is not necessarily an evolution, there are many different variations of YKS/SN wck SLT. here is another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcuJQ2kTgGw

[PalmStriker]

:) The SLT form in general is changing based on teacher/student transmission, much variation even within lineages. Perhaps one day the toolbox may become the focus and no longer the tools housed inside.

[PalmStriker]

Master Sum Nung SLT. Interesting to see the actual SLT form practiced by GreatMaster Yuen Kay San of Foshan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ9K-W-WWzU

[JPinAZ]

Interesting to see the craziness going on @8:30!
Any idea what that is about?

[PalmStriker]

:) Not my lineage but I would guess that the balance exercise has everything to do with strengthening the spine while sticking to opponent where offense can be manipulated.

[PalmStriker]

:) Lineage Reference: http://www.ewingchun.com/article/introduction-family-tree-buddhism-wing-chun

[PalmStriker]

:) Yip Man Chi Sao: http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2015/08/23/chi-sao-ip-man-and-the-problem-of-dispersed-training-in-wing-chun/

[PalmStriker]

:) Hakka: http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/09/28/wing-chun-and-the-hakka-arts-is-there-a-connection/

[Grumblegeezer]

:) Hakka: http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/09/28/wing-chun-and-the-hakka-arts-is-there-a-connection/

Just curious. You post a lot of interesting clips. But you seldom add much commentary. Scanning the thread, it seems a bit random. Is there a connection between this stuff, or particular point you are making?

[PalmStriker]

:) Just that there is a strong connection between the Hakka martial arts and WingChun specifically in the use of high stance, triangular footwork and short bridge boxing skills. Likewise the connection between the village old style Hung Gar that originated (most likely) in Southern Fujian Province that migrated south to Foshan. The thing about this line of reasoning in the researching of WingChun origins is that no one looking in this direction is pushing the similarities as a mandate or lineage package. This thread is pretty much that also. Just a collection of links for quick reference. Reality is: The great contemporary Masters of WingChun such as Master Ip Man were directly related through instruction and practice to Great Masters of Wingchun going back 2-3 centuries. In another century or two these associations are going to seem far in the distant past to new practitioners, For me, born in 1952, the American Civil War had been fought less than a century before. When I was younger I used to talk to my grandfather who was approx. Ip Man's age about things like his attending Wild Bill Hick****s' (Buffalo Bill) Wild West Show when he was a kid. Show featured Geronimo and other Native Chiefs of The People who had been the last to hold out in revolt against the European Invasion. 1880's. When my grandfather was a kid there weren't any cars yet on the roads, that sort of thing.