Thoughts on this chi sau?

[slick69]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHJR4uZ1kzg

[stonecrusher69]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHJR4uZ1kzg

I have seen this awhile ago. IMO GM Kwok is not on his A game. He seems either not really interested and bit annoyed, its not a good example of what I have seen before. Noticed how he is always grabbing his wrist trying to control his opponent which was ineffective. Both of then where IMO cheating by not staying bridged. Just taking cheap shots.

[YouKnowWho]

he is always grabbing his wrist trying to control his opponent which was ineffective. Both of then where IMO cheating by not staying bridged. Just taking cheap shots.
That's exactly the part that I like about his clip. He is one of very few WC guys that seems to understand how to take advantage on the "wrist grip". The "wrist grabbing" is the door that let you to step from "bridging" into "clinching". Even if you may try to stay away from clinching and you will never grab on your opponent's wrist, you still have to be able to deal with your opponent who grabs on your wrist. If you don't train in your sticky hand, where will you train?

IMO, the reason that he can take cheap shots on his opponent because his wrist grabbing can disable his opponent's mobility temporary and put his opponent in defense mode. In real fight, you want to be able to

- put your opponent in defense mode, and
- take as many cheap shots as you can.

[LFJ]

Problem is, he's not a clinch artist and grabs because he's scared, uncomfortable, and not in control. Untrained people will often try this tactic in fighting when overwhelmed by the chaos, but since they aren't doing it because they know what they're doing, they end up not grabbing anything successfully or not knowing what to do from there anyway and eat punches or get taken down while reaching out to grab something. :(

Fights don't start from pre- double-arm contact. If we square off and my opponent wants to grab both of my wrists like that, I'll have to be a mummy and stick my arms out for him, otherwise it ain't happening, unless I just suck that bad...

[guy b.]

The thing about wing chun is that the vast majority of it including 99.9999% of what is on youtube is nonsense. This example is a case in point and both guys are obviously wasting their time with the system. Mostly wing chun is an extremely impractical method of fighting that encourages very dangerous habits.

[HybridWarrior]

I agree with stonecrusher... kwok just taking cheap shots. No skill at all. Other guy at least has some vague idea of forward pressure; when kwok does his cheap shots the other guys arms/hands shoot forward because kwok doesn't understand even the basic idea of how to do the things he was trying. Ridiculous.
as for kwok's awesome wrist grabbing skill...he learned that from his two sifu's (yip chun and yip ching) both of whom are wrist grabbers when the sh1t isn't going there way. Sad sad sad...

[Subitai]

What JohnsWang said is correct, in addition, Grabbing is just the natural course and progression of a fight.

Either you can do it or you can't. There's no such world in which people should complain about grabbing or that it should be viewed lessor in any way.


That being said, about the chi sau...same thing that happens to allot of wing chun teachers, the opponent just reaches out and smacks his face. That should never happen off the jump...unless he's just better than you. A teacher...especially a WC sifu, I would think would be watching out for this every time.

Mabe it could happen after about 20 mins of sparring and both people are getting tired. But just relaxed like that...to just reach out and TADA!!...I got your face NO way!

If a guys hand can get to the side of my face(cheek) like that, then he can also reach a bit further and clinch behind my head. That's a no-no unless I want that to happen.

[guy b.]

What JohnsWang said is correct, in addition, Grabbing is just the natural course and progression of a fight.

Either you can do it or you can't. There's no such world in which people should complain about grabbing or that it should be viewed lessor in any way.


That being said, about the chi sau...same thing that happens to allot of wing chun teachers, the opponent just reaches out and smacks his face. That should never happen off the jump...unless he's just better than you. A teacher...especially a WC sifu, I would think would be watching out for this every time.

Mabe it could happen after about 20 mins of sparring and both people are getting tired. But just relaxed like that...to just reach out and TADA!!...I got your face NO way!

If a guys hand can get to the side of my face(cheek) like that, then he can also reach a bit further and clinch behind my head. That's a no-no unless I want that to happen.

Why would you be grabbing in the chi sau drill? Why would you be treating it as some kind of wrestling competition?

If you want to wrestle then the best thing to do is learn some kind of legitimate grappling method like olympic wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu. There is absolutely no point in reinventing wheel badly via wing chun. It is literally insane and John S Wang is way wrong here. Wing chun is a striking method, one that most people do very badly.

[YouKnowWho]

Why would you be grabbing in the chi sau drill? Why would you be treating it as some kind of wrestling competition?
To pull your opponent into your punch/kick in order to cause a head on collision (A + B > A) is a very common strategy in all CMA training. Old Chinese MA saying said, "拳不空回 (Chuan Bu Kon Hui) - you should never pull your punch without grabbing something back (never come back with empty hand)".

Again, if you don't train wrist grabbing in Chi Shou drill, when will you train that?

I believe the following pictures are all "pure" WC with no wrestling involved.

9502

9500

9501

[Subitai]

Ahem...John,

you just dropped the microphone! Impressive! :)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/cf/9c/4b/cf9c4bf9d40bf19aeefa8359f8379caf.gif

[guy b.]

To pull your opponent into your punch/kick in order to cause a head on collision (A + B > A) is a very common strategy in all CMA training. Old Chinese MA saying said, "拳不空回 (Chuan Bu Kon Hui) - you should never pull your punch without grabbing something back (never come back with empty hand)".

Again, if you don't train wrist grabbing in Chi Shou drill, when will you train that?

I believe the following pictures are all "pure" WC with no wrestling involved.

9502

9500

9501

Chi sau is a drill. What does the guy in the clip achieve by grabbing in the way he does during an alleged drill? Is he training his elbow position? Is he training not chasing hands? Is it footwork? I can't see it. Can you?

[YouKnowWho]

Chi sau is a drill. What does the guy in the clip achieve by grabbing in the way he does during an alleged drill? Is he training his elbow position? Is he training not chasing hands? Is it footwork? I can't see it. Can you?
Do you think "To pull your opponent into your punch/kick" is not WC principle? Without drill training, a skill cannot be properly developed. Is there another separate drill that WC guys may use to train this skill?

In the following clip, he pulls his opponent's left arm to jam his opponent's right arm, so when he punches with his right hand, his opponent has no arm to block it. It looks like 100% WC principle to me.

9503

[LFJ]

Where do you see any of that happening in the Kwok video above? :confused:

He's not grabbing and pulling the guy into his strikes. He's holding onto both the guy's wrists to stop the guy from hitting him, because he's obviously not in control and doesn't know what to do. He's not doing any sort of legit technique there. He's just holding on for dear face... then trying to throw a sudden slap in to look as if he has some skill over the guy. But the guy calmly and slowly puts his hand on Kwok's face numerous times... not needing to catch him off guard with a sudden move, just position.

[YouKnowWho]

Where do you see any of that happening in the Kwok video above? :confused:

We are talking about 3 different levels here:

1. Don't know how to do wrist grabbing.
2. Know how to do wrist grabbing but don't know how to take advantage on it.
3. Know how to do wrist grabbing and also know how to take advantage on it.

He may only show the 2nd level in that clip, but the "wrist grabbing" is a general principle. It should not be restricted by what he can do in that clip.

[wckf92]

To pull your opponent into your punch/kick in order to cause a head on collision (A + B > A) is a very common strategy in all CMA training. Old Chinese MA saying said, "拳不空回 (Chuan Bu Kon Hui) - you should never pull your punch without grabbing something back (never come back with empty hand)".

I agree completely YKW. Especially the part about the head on collision. However, LFJ is correct about what is going on in that video. He (the 'grandmaster') is obviously trying to keep from getting hit.


Again, if you don't train wrist grabbing in Chi Shou drill, when will you train that?

I think this will vary quite a bit between schools, lineages, instructor training methods. I was first trained in this method in san sik/san sao but later wrist grabbing (NOT like its being done in that video) and arm drags were integrated into chi sao drills.

[slick69]

Both of then where IMO cheating by not staying bridged. Just taking cheap shots.

What a dumb comment, cheating?

[slick69]

I kinda respect both for putting this out there. I think where you train with someone from diff organization it is a bit awkward. Kwok is uncomfortable and other guy is not really attacking. However I learn much from clip.

[guy b.]

Do you think "To pull your opponent into your punch/kick" is not WC principle? Without drill training, a skill cannot be properly developed. Is there another separate drill that WC guys may use to train this skill?

In the following clip, he pulls his opponent's left arm to jam his opponent's right arm, so when he punches with his right hand, his opponent has no arm to block it. It looks like 100% WC principle to me

Pulling and grabbing is not a wing chun principle. Clearing the way for hitting is a wing chun principle. Bong, lap can be applied in this way (to clear); they are not grappling though. The intention is to hit. Not to jam, not to tie up. To hit.

The lap sau drill of itself develpos a lot more than the idea of clearing the way. Most obviously it is a punching power development drill. It develops the structure and the punch.

Wing chun drills are not drills of applications.

[YouKnowWho]

Pulling and grabbing is not a wing chun principle. ... Wing chun drills are not drills of applications.

That's what I'm afraid someone may say. If it's not WC principle in our previous generation, why can't we make it WC principle in our generation and also in the future generation? A + B > A, by adding B, A will stay unchange.

Also, all drills can be used to train application if you decide to take that route. You are the master, your style is only your slave. It's your choice that matter the most.

[wckf92]

That's what I'm afraid someone may say. If it's not WC principle in our previous generation, why can't we make it WC principle in our generation and also in the future generation? A + B > A, by adding B, A will stay unchange.

Also, all drills can be used to train application if you decide to take that route. You are the master, your style is only your slave. It's your choice that matter the most.

pulling and grabbing (or grabbing and pulling) is acceptable WC. Obviously guyb has a different opinion. No big deal. Grabbing and pulling can achieve "clearing the way" (as guyb puts it) while at the same time amplifying power generation. Again, it depends on how one's training methodologies are conducted.

[YouKnowWho]

"clearing the way" ...

This is a very important CMA principle. When your opponent puts both arms in his center, if you punch him, his arms will be in the way. You can

1. wait for, or
2. force,

your opponent to move his arms out of the way, so you can meet your fist on his face. Since you will never know when he will move his arms away by himself, it's better to "help" him to do so.

Of course you can push your opponent's arm away. But what if you will need to pull? You may use Fu Shou type of pulling. But since when you use Fu Shou, your opponent can just rotate his arm and get out of your contact, the wrist grabbing is still more security way to pull.

[LFJ]

We are talking about 3 different levels here:

1. Don't know how to do wrist grabbing.
2. Know how to do wrist grabbing but don't know how to take advantage on it.
3. Know how to do wrist grabbing and also know how to take advantage on it.

He may only show the 2nd level in that clip, but the "wrist grabbing" is a general principle. It should not be restricted by what he can do in that clip.

You honestly think that clip shows a legit form of wrist grabbing, and not just trying to hold on to keep from getting hit? :confused: I do not agree!


A + B > A, by adding B, A will stay unchange.

Not really. If instead of clearing the way by hitting directly you change to grabbing and trying to do something else, you're no longer using A tactics or strategy.

It's logical in theory maybe, A + B > A and they don't create a new letter, just AB, but then A + B + C would be > AB too, and so on ad infinitum (or 26)... But in the brief chaos of a fight, less is more! Rather than a grab bag of strategies and tactics, one direct and decisive strategy that you have trained well will better serve you.

[guy b.]

That's what I'm afraid someone may say. If it's not WC principle in our previous generation, why can't we make it WC principle in our generation and also in the future generation? A + B > A, by adding B, A will stay unchange.

Also, all drills can be used to train application if you decide to take that route. You are the master, your style is only your slave. It's your choice that matter the most.

Wing chun is a principle based MA. If you just add random things to it as you see fit then you end up with a contradictory mess that no longer works.

You can't make wing chun drills like lap sau, chi sau train application for the simple reason that NOBODY FIGHTS LIKE THAT. If you are expecting it to happen in a fight you will be sorely disappointed.

It is bizarre to suggest that what was happening in the clip was anything other than someone's crappy wing chun breaking down when they treated chi sau like some kind of contest