About Wah Lum Kung Fu

[BBarbieri]

Hello all!

I was intending to start to study Wah Lum Kung Fu for two main reasons:

1- Increase my stamina, resistance and health in general

2- Acquire Self Defense Skills

The first one, based on what I saw in internet, it seems that they are great for doing that! They are totally fitness!

For the second I am not sure. 99% of the videos that I watched from this style were related to presentations, showing forms, etc... Almost nothing about the self defense applications...

So it makes me wonder, is this style oriented to self defense too? (As wing Chun, Hun gar, etc)
And for self defense, I mean, any technique that disables my offender long enough to allow me run away from the trouble. I don't intend to fight... Just to create a situation where I could run away, if it was not possible from the beginning...

What you guys think?

Thanks for your time!

[SoCo KungFu]

is this style oriented to self defense too? (As wing Chun, Hun gar, etc)


No (And neither are a number of schools in the others you list)

[BBarbieri]

Thanks for your reply!

I was thinking that kung fu was like tae kwondo, karatê, etc... Where you learn punchs, kicks, self defense, etc...

So it seems that kung fu is more for physical activity, get in shape... Etc.

Maybe it worth trying... At least seems great for health an fun for mind.

Thanks for you time!

[SoCo KungFu]

Thanks for your reply!

I was thinking that kung fu was like tae kwondo, karatê, etc... Where you learn punchs, kicks, self defense, etc...

So it seems that kung fu is more for physical activity, get in shape... Etc.

Maybe it worth trying... At least seems great for health an fun for mind.

Thanks for you time!

In most kwoons, yes. Many think they teach self defense. Some are correct in their attempt. And a few of those actually succeed.

Wah Lum (as a whole system) isn't one of them.

[wiz cool c]

Way way back in time I took one of their two week full time training courses at their head courters in florida. They sparred hard [or at least gave me their best guys when I attended their sparring classes] didn’t see much in the form of traditional applications though] you would be surprised in china they don’t do much of teaching applications for fighting either. It seems quite common to be show once or twice what the moves mean ,but never pairing up and practicing them. My advice would be either find a school that does teach and practice the moves from the forms with partners, or constantly ask what the movements mean for fighting and get a partner of your own and practice them, explore how they can be used in different situations

[David Jamieson]

Everything is just training until you have to use it.
Results may vary. :p

Train well and you will succeed.
Go for the t-shirt and you have already failed.

[SoCo KungFu]

Oh dear lord. We don't need esoterics in this thread. This topic has been beaten to death both here and other forums. Wah Lum is contemporary wushu. They don't fight. They don't train to fight. They don't teach applications. And anyone from "back in the day" that claims they did is spinning stories. Everyone here knows of the mass exodus of any talent that fled WL for greener pastures. And I'm sure this will **** some people off, but most of those names, also never taught fighting. And those that did, didn't teach it from WL material. And yes, that is insider knowledge. No, I won't be dropping names and slandering a couple men who, knowing them, probably do not even have a computer to come here and defend themselves. I might be an ass, but I'm an ass to people in person, or some **** like that.

The only reason WL is not put in the same category as Shaolin-Do is because Chan Poi has at least some semblance of a legit lineage, even if no one can figure out what the hell it actually is.

OP, if you want to be a gymnast. Sure, WL will do that fine. But if you want to learn to fight, avoid WL like the plague.

[David Jamieson]

Oh dear lord. We don't need esoterics in this thread. This topic has been beaten to death both here and other forums. Wah Lum is contemporary wushu. They don't fight. They don't train to fight. They don't teach applications. And anyone from "back in the day" that claims they did is spinning stories. Everyone here knows of the mass exodus of any talent that fled WL for greener pastures. And I'm sure this will **** some people off, but most of those names, also never taught fighting. And those that did, didn't teach it from WL material. And yes, that is insider knowledge. No, I won't be dropping names and slandering a couple men who, knowing them, probably do not even have a computer to come here and defend themselves. I might be an ass, but I'm an ass to people in person, or some **** like that.

The only reason WL is not put in the same category as Shaolin-Do is because Chan Poi has at least some semblance of a legit lineage, even if no one can figure out what the hell it actually is.

OP, if you want to be a gymnast. Sure, WL will do that fine. But if you want to learn to fight, avoid WL like the plague.

I don't think it's esoteric to state what I just did. 99% of all training is simply training.
Most of what is wanted by people training in Kung Fu, which is quite esoteric in and of itself really, are there for fitness , flexibility, some kind of understanding of cma etc.

If someone wanted to learn self defense or fighting skills, then they wouldn't even ask a question about what style to learn or what school to join. So it's safe to say that people train in cma for the sake of it really. TO actively train to fight, you have to go where active fighting is happening and for the most part, that's not going on in your average kung fu schools outside of san da classes if they have 'em.

[wiz cool c]

Oh dear lord. We don't need esoterics in this thread. This topic has been beaten to death both here and other forums. Wah Lum is contemporary wushu. They don't fight. They don't train to fight. They don't teach applications. And anyone from "back in the day" that claims they did is spinning stories. Everyone here knows of the mass exodus of any talent that fled WL for greener pastures. And I'm sure this will **** some people off, but most of those names, also never taught fighting. And those that did, didn't teach it from WL material. And yes, that is insider knowledge. No, I won't be dropping names and slandering a couple men who, knowing them, probably do not even have a computer to come here and defend themselves. I might be an ass, but I'm an ass to people in person, or some **** like that.

The only reason WL is not put in the same category as Shaolin-Do is because Chan Poi has at least some semblance of a legit lineage, even if no one can figure out what the hell it actually is.

OP, if you want to be a gymnast. Sure, WL will do that fine. But if you want to learn to fight, avoid WL like the plague.

Wah lam headquarters in Florida does spar, and I sparred and sparred hard when I was there . I have no need to lie ,I have done martial arts for 30 years last 8 living in china, I have written 6 articles for kung fu/ tai chi magazine, have a documentary film about myself coming out, no need to make up stories about wah lam pal

And they do some training for fighting, let me explain what the sparring class was like, first they run for a while outside, then they come back to the school and beat their forearms and shins with pieces of bamboo tied together, they had a taped off square on the floor for a ring, match you up with someone your own weight, and do three three minutes rounds

[BBarbieri]

Hello Thanks for the replies!

I found this rare video about self defense techniques that seems to be from wah lum...

http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dw2F BvWyqOqk&ei=1vaTVcmVE4Li-QHonp3gCA&usg=AFQjCNHvKFrTsHIrUNQFAhufTJ2ZsSKX5w&sig2=ViBlbS2PHQ4CHbvY63FAkg&bvm=bv.96952980,d.cWw

Is this the sparring that you talk about?

Thanks for your time!

[wiz cool c]

That is the headquarters, same place I did the two week full time training course at, but not what I was talking about, I went to their free sparring class,[and we ran , then beat our arms and legs with pieces of bamboo, then did three three minute rounds of free sparring ,and the sparring was pretty intense

[BBarbieri]

Hello Wiz Cool,

When you say about the sparring, I was wondering:

Is it similar to the sparring of Taekwondo, Karate, etc with only punchs and kicks in general?
Its allowed to make throws as aikido/jiu jitsu /Judo?

Thanks for your time!

[wiz cool c]

It was your average kick punch type sparring. I will tell you the story cause I still remember it vividly. I think they were a little taken back cause I was only there for two weeks and came to their sparring class. I think maybe the teacher the little Chinese guy Pan is that his name?[I don’t know if he is still around but he was in the mid 90s when I went] thought I was like testing them or something. So he put me up against a tall thin Asian guy.

We wore that foam type point fighting gloves]not designed for full contact].the first round started and I immediately just taped the sparring partner in the head with a light round house kick, after that he started rushing me with full force straight punches to the face. He caught me off guard, cause I though it would be light contact friendly sparring. His reach was longer than mine ,and I didn’t have good hand techniques back than ,just good kicks, the first round he lit me up. Caught me in the face a lot. Between rounds ,I thought about the old saying never box a boxer or wrestle a wrestler. So next round I kept my hands up and started kicking his legs with side kicks, I tagged him a bunch of times then he started to try to switch to my game, and began kicking instead of punching. he couldn’t’ out kick me and I continued to tag his legs and ribs with sidekicks. at one point he got in close and I clinchéd him and rear leg reaped him and threw him on his back. At another point I caught one of his kicks and reaped him again and stomped my foot on the ground a few inches away from his groin to show him it would be over if this was real.

The next week I went back to the class again although I had two injuries from the sparring match I just described, one was my foot was swollen maybe from catching an elbow on it and I had a big scrape down the side of my shin were it was red and raw. The guy they put me up against was another Asian that was about my height but kind of buff. The guy that lived across the street full time and hung out with me in the free time said he was one of the best at the school, and good luck to me. This time the Pan guy said we will do two rounds were one guy just attacks and the other just defend ,and the third round will be free sparring., cause the week before’s class was so messy. So we did the two rounds ,then the third we were sparring free style, I wasnt having two much trouble with this guy keeping him away with my kicks, then during that round the foot inch scrap down my shin was hit somehow, and I grabbed my leg in pain and the Pan guy said ok you finished this round and brought up the next two

[Wuxia007]

I studied at Wah Lum for 4 years.
To answer your question...

- Do they teach practical self-defense? Yes. Absolutely.

- Will you be able to fight at the level of an MMA fighter or a professional
Muay Thai fighter? Probably not because that's a different realm. Wah Lum does not teach you to be a professional fighter. Remember, you said you were not looking for this level of fighting.

- Will you be able to defend yourself from a random thug on the street? Yes, absolutely. Again, you said this was all you were looking for.

- Fancy acrobatic movements at Wah Lum? Compared to most traditional kung fu styles, yes. Compared to contemporary Wushu, Wah Lum is still very traditional.

- Focus on physical fitness? Yes, absolutely.

- Focus on forms? The majority of your training at Wah Lum will be on practicing forms. There's just so many empty hand and weapons forms at Wah Lum, you'll never get bored.

- Focus on sparring? There is quite a bit of sparring practice but not quite so much as form practice. The majority of their sparring practice is typical point sparring limited to fists and kicks but every now and then they'll practice grappling sparring. Not simply just controlled takedown practice routines but actual grappling sparring.

- I have studied TCMA and modern Wushu at many schools in the US and in China. To this day, Wah Lum is one of the most disciplined TCMA schools I have ever attended. They don't let you half ass your techniques like many schools do.

- is Wah Lum a perfect system? Absolutely not.

- Is any style or system perfect? Absolutely not.

- Will it be perfect for you? Possibly, but only you can know.

[SoCo KungFu]

Wah lam headquarters in Florida does spar, and I sparred and sparred hard when I was there . I have no need to lie ,I have done martial arts for 30 years last 8 living in china, I have written 6 articles for kung fu/ tai chi magazine, have a documentary film about myself coming out, no need to make up stories about wah lam pal
Irrelevant. 99% of martial artists spend their entire lives not knowing what actual fight training is like. That doesn't mean they're lying, but it does mean most are oblivious. A sure sign is thinking what you have described is hard sparring. Any asshat can get a documentary made about them these days. They even made one about Wah Lum.


And they do some training for fighting, let me explain what the sparring class was like, first they run for a while outside, then they come back to the school and beat their forearms and shins with pieces of bamboo tied together, they had a taped off square on the floor for a ring, match you up with someone your own weight, and do three three minutes rounds

Some being the operative word, according to both your posts and their own website.

[SoCo KungFu]

Way way back in time I took one of their two week full time training courses at their head courters in florida. They sparred hard [or at least gave me their best guys when I attended their sparring classes] didn’t see much in the form of traditional applications though] you would be surprised in china they don’t do much of teaching applications for fighting either. It seems quite common to be show once or twice what the moves mean ,but never pairing up and practicing them. My advice would be either find a school that does teach and practice the moves from the forms with partners, or constantly ask what the movements mean for fighting and get a partner of your own and practice them, explore how they can be used in different situations

Right, so way back in the day you took a whopping 2 weeks and one free sparring class. And this makes you a qualified judge of the norm how?

Edit: Oh I'm sorry, two whole free sparring sessions.....

[SoCo KungFu]

I studied at Wah Lum for 4 years.
To answer your question...

- Do they teach practical self-defense? Yes. Absolutely.

- Will you be able to fight at the level of an MMA fighter or a professional
Muay Thai fighter? Probably not because that's a different realm. Wah Lum does not teach you to be a professional fighter. Remember, you said you were not looking for this level of fighting.

- Will you be able to defend yourself from a random thug on the street? Yes, absolutely. Again, you said this was all you were looking for.

- Fancy acrobatic movements at Wah Lum? Compared to most traditional kung fu styles, yes. Compared to contemporary Wushu, Wah Lum is still very traditional.

- Focus on physical fitness? Yes, absolutely.

- Focus on forms? The majority of your training at Wah Lum will be on practicing forms. There's just so many empty hand and weapons forms at Wah Lum, you'll never get bored.

- Focus on sparring? There is quite a bit of sparring practice but not quite so much as form practice. The majority of their sparring practice is typical point sparring limited to fists and kicks but every now and then they'll practice grappling sparring. Not simply just controlled takedown practice routines but actual grappling sparring.

- I have studied TCMA and modern Wushu at many schools in the US and in China. To this day, Wah Lum is one of the most disciplined TCMA schools I have ever attended. They don't let you half ass your techniques like many schools do.

- is Wah Lum a perfect system? Absolutely not.

- Is any style or system perfect? Absolutely not.

- Will it be perfect for you? Possibly, but only you can know.

Your post is contradictory. If the focus is on forms, then they are not doing adequate preparation for actual fighting. If the focus is on forms, then by definition, there is not "quite a bit" of sparring.

FYI, With the possible exception of big mantis (only because its modified beng bu), nothing is traditional about wah lum material. I'll say it again. The only reason no one lumps wah lum in with shaolin-do is because chan poi had at least some tracing of a legit lineage. Disregarding that he only trained in that lineage a handful of years and then went on to poach from half a dozen southern styles to make up for what he doesn't know of the original WL material.

[Wuxia007]

Your post is contradictory. If the focus is on forms, then they are not doing adequate preparation for actual fighting. If the focus is on forms, then by definition, there is not "quite a bit" of sparring.

FYI, With the possible exception of big mantis (only because its modified beng bu), nothing is traditional about wah lum material. I'll say it again. The only reason no one lumps wah lum in with shaolin-do is because chan poi had at least some tracing of a legit lineage. Disregarding that he only trained in that lineage a handful of years and then went on to poach from half a dozen southern styles to make up for what he doesn't know of the original WL material.


I respectfully disagree.
I do not see a contradiction. For example, in a total population of 100, if group A is 51% of that 100 and group B is 49% of that same 100. Then it is safe to say that while group A is the majority, there is still many of group B.

Are you confusing "traditional" with "original"?

[SoCo KungFu]

I respectfully disagree.
I do not see a contradiction. For example, in a total population of 100, if group A is 51% of that 100 and group B is 49% of that same 100. Then it is safe to say that while group A is the majority, there is still many of group B.

If your intent is to be a functional martial artist with your kung fu, forms should make up less than 10-15% of your training. You should be sparring every class, at least half of the class. And that is probably being conservative. Forms are for teachers to remember the moves/concepts, not for students to train with.

That I have to explain this to you, tells me all I need to know of how things are still done down in Orlando.


Are you confusing "traditional" with "original"?

No

[wiz cool c]

Right, so way back in the day you took a whopping 2 weeks and one free sparring class. And this makes you a qualified judge of the norm how?

Edit: Oh I'm sorry, two whole free sparring sessions.....


yeah they had an ongoing sparring class and sparred pretty hard, complicated hun. Also I had two rough matches with them, almost like challenge matches, and you are behind your nice safe screen running your mouth, so obviously I have more experience in this matter than you.

And about my documentary, yeah I know there are lots of jealous people these days but I am quite proud of my accomplishments I have done about 30 commercials, written 6 articles for this great magazine, my coach Yao Honggang[his brother is in the ufc now] will be making a movie soon will be in that. Had the Sweden government invest 30 thousand rmb in telling my life story, that was the first investment seconds coming soon.Have a book coming out soon[already got publishers waiting on it] So I have given back a lot to the martial arts, you are just another angry guy on the internet.

A new member to the loser list Ignore List "for those without a life"


bawang
LFJ
SoCo KungFu
Syn7

[Wuxia007]

And about my documentary, yeah I know there are lots of jealous people these days but I am quite proud of my accomplishments I have done about 30 commercials, written 6 articles for this great magazine, my coach Yao Honggang[his brother is in the ufc now] will be making a movie soon will be in that. Had the Sweden government invest 30 thousand rmb in telling my life story, that was the first investment seconds coming soon.Have a book coming out soon[already got publishers waiting on it] So I have given back a lot to the martial arts..."



Congratulations on your achievements. The filmmaking and writing lifestyle isn't easy.
I, myself, am a freelance filmmaker. If you're willing, I would love to see your work.

[wiz cool c]

Congratulations on your achievements. The filmmaking and writing lifestyle isn't easy.
I, myself, am a freelance filmmaker. If you're willing, I would love to see your work.

thank you Wuxia007. you can add me on facebook, i will send you a private message

[rett2]

Forms are for teachers to remember the moves/concepts, not for students to train with.


Is this necessarily the case? Forms are a predictable, low-injury environment for practising and learning footwork, techniques and a style’s approach to whole-body coordination. This could be a useful step before going into the more unpredictable environment of sparring. Certainly a lot of traditional teaching, based around lifelong sustainability of training, sees it this way.

However I might agree if a school goes on teaching form after form after form to students at the expense of applications and freeform playfighting. Having a huge number of forms seems more like something for a teacher, a repository of knowledge. Of course it depends on students’ goals. If they like forms, and feel an affinity for the training, then great.

[BBarbieri]

Hello!

Please, correct if I am wrong:

Considering the statements that I have read in this thread, it seems that forms are not related to fight?
They are just movements to improve your strength, flexibility and health in general? They are not supposed to be used in real situations?
Is it?

Thanks for your time in advance!

[ShaolinDan]

Hello!

Please, correct if I am wrong:

Considering the statements that I have read in this thread, it seems that forms are not related to fight?
They are just movements to improve your strength, flexibility and health in general? They are not supposed to be used in real situations?
Is it?

Thanks for your time in advance!

Forms (in general) are related to fighting. The individual movements or short sequences of movements in forms are supposed to be used in real situations. However, none of these movements is likely to work well without pulling them out of the forms and drilling them with a partner under increasingly "live" circumstances. Many traditional MA schools do very little of this essential progression.
Forms are not necessary to combat training, but can be helpful. Progressive pressured practice of techniques is more or less mandatory.

However, everyone finds their own balance. Most of us want more than just combat effectiveness from our MA training.

I'm finding that what we want changes over time.
My advice: Don't spend too much time deliberating over where to train. Just start training somewhere. You have to start training before you can really know what you want.

[wiz cool c]

Hello!

Please, correct if I am wrong:

Considering the statements that I have read in this thread, it seems that forms are not related to fight?
They are just movements to improve your strength, flexibility and health in general? They are not supposed to be used in real situations?
Is it?

Thanks for your time in advance!


Alone they won’t make you a fighter. If you sincerely practice forms , with other body condition partner work and freestyle training they with help your fighting skills a lot. They also will teach you how to generate proper power within your system, the moves may have to be modified a bit to fit into practical self defense though. My teacher teaches the movement in the form to be used in fighting with a shorter tighter version of the movements, and stating from a hands up fighting stance

[SoCo KungFu]

yeah they had an ongoing sparring class and sparred pretty hard, complicated hun. Also I had two rough matches with them, almost like challenge matches, and you are behind your nice safe screen running your mouth, so obviously I have more experience in this matter than you.

Considering I grew up in the FL kung fu scene and trained with a number of individuals that had affiliation with the temple, no, you don't. I also think you have no **** clue what hard sparring, let alone a challenge match, would actually be.


And about my documentary, yeah I know there are lots of jealous people these days but I am quite proud of my accomplishments I have done about 30 commercials, written 6 articles for this great magazine, my coach Yao Honggang[his brother is in the ufc now] will be making a movie soon will be in that. Had the Sweden government invest 30 thousand rmb in telling my life story, that was the first investment seconds coming soon.Have a book coming out soon[already got publishers waiting on it] So I have given back a lot to the martial arts, you are just another angry guy on the internet.

I traveled the world, obtained a highly advanced education, worked on research to treat cancer, summited mountains...and have done this all before reaching mid 30's. I really could not give less ****s about anything to do with your life, this is a topic about Wah Lum. Go masturbate to your personal victories elsewhere.


A new member to the loser list Ignore List "for those without a life"

Bye Felicia



bawang
LFJ
SoCo KungFu
Syn7

Seems I keep good company...

[SoCo KungFu]

Is this necessarily the case? Forms are a predictable, low-injury environment for practising and learning footwork, techniques and a style’s approach to whole-body coordination. This could be a useful step before going into the more unpredictable environment of sparring. Certainly a lot of traditional teaching, based around lifelong sustainability of training, sees it this way.


Except they're not. Forms are a reference sheet. Little more. As a reference, they can provide insight into strategy. But that's about it, and the references are hardly all-inclusive. They do not teach anything about proper footwork, positioning, power generation or structure. Why? Because you need to be working with another person (preferably resisting you) to development those things. In fact, by relying too much on forms, you can create more incorrect mechanics than you would otherwise and could increase your risk of injury. This especially with kicking or grappling techniques.

[SoCo KungFu]

They also will teach you how to generate proper power within your system

NO! You cannot learn to properly hit something by not hitting things. Air provides zero feedback. Structure developed through forms practice is meaningless when you transition to actually hitting moving, solid objects.

[hskwarrior]

I might be an ass,


no, you're definitely an ass. hands down.

[bawang]

NO! You cannot learn to properly hit something by not hitting things. Air provides zero feedback. Structure developed through forms practice is meaningless when you transition to actually hitting moving, solid objects.

stop arguing with that guy man hes a legitimate nutcase he got the huang aguilar eyes lol

[Krottyman]

NO! You cannot learn to properly hit something by not hitting things. Air provides zero feedback. Structure developed through forms practice is meaningless when you transition to actually hitting moving, solid objects.

SoCoKungFu, are you running/teaching a Kung Fu group of your own? Just wondering.

I'm generally going to side with you, though. I remember hearing that a good chunk of historical CMA training had much less emphasis on forms training (at least in the military and for those competing on lei tai). I always thought forms emphasis was more of a modern thing, or in dynastic times as just a way to make a living during peace time. So if anything, it'd be more faithful toward TCMA to spar more than focus on form work, assuming that you are not into Hua Fa Wu Yi :D

[bawang]

SoCoKungFu, are you running/teaching a Kung Fu group of your own? Just wondering. If so, then I think there would be a lot less to argue if you (if you have competed) or your students showing that your training suggestions are better than Wuxia's or Wiz's or whoever else is arguing otherwise.

I'm generally going to side with you, though. I remember hearing that a good chunk of historical CMA training had much less emphasis on forms training (at least in the military and for those competing on lei tai). I always thought forms emphasis was more of a modern thing, or in dynastic times as just a way to make a living during peace time. So if anything, it'd be more faithful toward TCMA to spar more than focus on form work, assuming that you are not into Hua Fa Wu Yi :D
u do know that wiz guy is a sex tourist right

[Krottyman]

u do know that wiz guy is a sex tourist right

Lol I was gonna withold my judgment but ok

[mawali]

I knew a few acquaintance who were part of the Wah Lum organization about 10-15 years ago but they seemed to have dried up as I have not heard anything from them!
They seem to have had their success but I am guessing the wushu craze has overshadowed alot of groups like these. Just guessing..........

[wiz cool c]

Don’t listen to these Johnny come lately, just a bunch of watered down MMA wannabes .forms have lots of values, and if you don’t like forms why on earth would you be doing kung fu,I mean let’s get real here.

[Krottyman]

Well, that's the thing. I mentioned to SoCo that forms weren't really such an important part of Kung Fu until relatively recently, at least not for fighting. Yes, it was always a part of training but it shouldn't be the majority of class time training.

[mickey]

Greetings,

While I cannot say as to what is going on now, I remember two Wah Lum people from the Boston area who could fight: Jason Yee and Javonne Holmes. They trained under Yao Li. Jason Yee participated in Sanda and did very well. At the Houston Nationals, Javonne Holmes competed in both forms and fighting on at least one occasion. I saw footage of him doing so and he did not appear at all timid about throwing down. These guys may be a reflection of how things were transmitted during Wah Lum's Boston phase, as opposed to what was/is happening in Florida. Another hint that fighting was trained is their Iron Palm training. There is no point in learning that if you are going to flop around back and forth doing forms.

mickey

[Wuxia007]

Well, that's the thing. I mentioned to SoCo that forms weren't really such an important part of Kung Fu until relatively recently, at least not for fighting.

Please don't take this as a challenge or doubt towards your claim. Would you mind sharing any sources that helped you come to that conclusion? Thanks.

[Krottyman]

Please don't take this as a challenge or doubt towards your claim. Would you mind sharing any sources that helped you come to that conclusion? Thanks.
e (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_martial_arts I will grant you that Wikipedia is not considered an ideal source, but given their recent standards increase (I had along with a group tried to write a page for a school project, it got rejected twice and was a candidate for deletion) I thought it was a good place to start. skip to "forms."

I've lurked on Bullshido as well, specifically the CMA subforum. The general consensus there (the attitude) is that forms have their context but they shouldn't replace sparring. In fact, there is a link in the "progressive martial artists" sticky that talks about the lei tai in the 1920s where a guy who sparred more often beat a much stronger opponent who overemphasized his iron palm training. There was also a quote from the book Qin Na Fa by Liu Jinsheng. (I'm using my touch screen so I didn't copy/paste, I'll paraphrase): He basically said that a lot of practitioners in his day (the 30s) were training in CMA but weren't doing it for practical reasons. So, when a guy goes up to fight someone who say, crosstrained in another art like boxing or wrestling, would've gotten his butt kicked. This was mostly because the former was only doing his forms and wasn't practicing the way his ancestors would. He also mentioned famous military figures like Qi Jiguang who did whatever they could to keep things on the practical side, specifically to address things like this.

I'm sure you're famlilar with the Cultural Revolution as well. Funny thing is at first they actually encouraged martial arts practice, but come Cultural Revolution time completely discounted the value of self-defense (never want to give the martial artists too much power, according to them) and we get the closing or burning down of lots of martial arts schools <- This I found from following NYSanda and Ben Judkins's Kung Fu Tea blogs. I forget which articles exactly. In fact, it was Zhou Enlai who encouraged combat sports again, I believe. (history of Chinese boxing in the olympics).

I'll grant you that many did end up emphasizing form over function- There's also a phrase to describe performance-only arts derived from older martial arts styles: "Hua Fa Wu Yi", arts specifically used to tell stories. These were usually soldiers or performers finding alternate ways to make money. Supposedly it had a negative influence on training in the military. But they were clearly not designed for fighting anymore at those points.

There's more but those were the eye openers.

[Jimbo]

There were other times throughout history where some CMA devolved into more performance or forms-oriented practice, such as during the Song or Ming Dynasties. Not only during the early 20th century. Then the practical methods would once again be brought to the forefront to counter those trends. Much of the problem with CMA becoming classified as "hua chuan xiu tui" (flowery fist, embroidery leg) during the 20th century had much to do with what happened during and after the Boxer Rebellion. Kung fu was then seen as impractical in the modern world, so many emphasized training it to strengthen the health of the people first, and as a fighting method secondly (or thirdly).

Many of the best CMAists of the period (at least in the north) remained practitioners who trained Shuai Jiao, either by itself or in conjunction with a "boxing" art.

[bawang]

kung fu became flowery in periods of history when there was money to be made.

[Krottyman]

There were other times throughout history where some CMA devolved into more performance or forms-oriented practice, such as during the Song or Ming Dynasties. Not only during the early 20th century. Then the practical methods would once again be brought to the forefront to counter those trends. Much of the problem with CMA becoming classified as "hua chuan xiu tui" (flowery fist, embroidery leg) during the 20th century had much to do with what happened during and after the Boxer Rebellion. Kung fu was then seen as impractical in the modern world, so many emphasized training it to strengthen the health of the people first, and as a fighting method secondly (or thirdly).

Yep, that's where I found the term "hua fa wu yi" as well.


Many of the best CMAists of the period (at least in the north) remained practitioners who trained Shuai Jiao, either by itself or in conjunction with a "boxing" art.

Judging by drawings of lei tai fights from earlier dynasties, I'll bet this remained the case for longer tan just the last century.