We did it. We clonned the first human being today. To bad the clergy is trying to spoil it.

[Black Jack]

I am 110% for clonning and it's vast medical applications and the biological manipulations of genetic research in an effort to increase our knowledge of science and our way of life.

What I am not for are those people who try to ban and put a hinder to science only because of their own mythological and selfish viewpoints as based on their religion.

Even though I like President Bush a good deal and I think he is handling the war on terrorism with great determination and focus I do not follow his belief to ban clonning because it is "morally wrong".

On who's morals, what guiding factor, the guiding factor of religion of course.

Anyone want to chip in with their viewpoints and of the attempt to ban or slow down private clonning research because of these morals.

Regards

[SantaClaus]

they made a supercomputor out of dna encoded in teh at and CG sequence. It holds the equivalent of 8,000 cds in the double helix structure.

May red assed baboons.....you know the rest

http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/images/Baboon.jpg

[Nexus]

Yes, we could clone all the former martial arts masters and bring them back for a big party of pizza and beer!

- Nexus

[Starchaser107]

Today..
where?
is there a link?
hmmn

"everything is everything"

[Black Jack]

It's been all over the freakin American news.

Not really to hard to find. It was really yesterday but today sounded better for the post.

Regards

[Ralek]

They've already cloned sheep, monkeys, chimps.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[joedoe]

Didn't a Korean group do it a year or so ago?

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Sharky]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1677000/1677327.stm

=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish

Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Starchaser107]

cool,
havn't been any watching t.v. lately.
I'm sure something must be online though
peace.

"everything is everything"

[SantaClaus]

who cares, I can get you babies, cheap ones.

Go to afganistan. Children are starving, go to Ruwanda, don't pay a billion dollars making a ******* test tube baby.

Unless of course you can make nazi supermen, then train them to kill the 3rd world kids and make a race of strong, smart, superhumans that are devoid of emotions, roaming the EARTH WITHOUT SOULS. Or keep the souls and make superhumans, freaks and make the X-Men.

HO HO HO
http://thumb-2.image.altavista.com/image/100933751

[SantaClaus]

"We shouldn't as a society grow life to destroy it," said President Bush.

well folks, looks like photosynthesis is our only option. Grow carrots to destroy them? Not in the USA. Feed pigs, just to kill them? Not in this country.

Luckilly I live in the North pole, which is divided up on ownership, but there are no cops, so I eat polar bears and elves if I feel like it.

HO HO HO
http://thumb-2.image.altavista.com/image/100933751

[SifuAbel]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, we could clone all the former martial arts masters [/quote]

They would still have to be taught like anybody else.

We are talking about 30 cells, not a formed fetus. People hear the "Embryo" catchword and think that it is a formed human. These cells have the potential for curing a multitude of conditions. Imagine a heart transplant using a heart grown from your own tissue. Perhaps that heart can grow along inside, the old heart is then later removed. That means that when most of you out there reach the age of dementia, you will be aided by what we do today. Grandma and grandpa can take care of themselves instead of being in a home. They at least will be able to feed and tend for themselves. They can remain active and sane members of the family for a longer period. Which, is the #1 complaint that results in institutional care. Healthcare cost would be reduced significantly. Spinal tissue patients will be able to regain mobility. We could make quadroplegia a thing of the past. Imagine stephen hawking getting out of his chair and talking to you with his mouth. CP, MS, MD, Alzhiemers etc. would just about dissappear. Ç

Are you immortal?

sifuabel@yahoo.
com

[Daniel Madar]

Fricking George Lucas is behind it I tell you!!!

He's just ****ed because Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are making him feel unloved.

Merciless is Mercy.

[Budokan]

:D

K. Mark Hoover

[Aramus]

I think I'm a clone now, doesn't seem to be anyone else around...

I think cloning scares people for a lot of reasons. It would be that they think they will no longer be unique. Maybe they are afraid we will grow people to harvest their organs. Then the questions of does the clone deserve to live, does it have a will, a soul, etc. Some people may fear we are playing "god" and pushing things too far and such.

Me...I think it could be a good thing.

"I'm unique, just like everyone else."

[blaktiger]

there are still some moral implications to this whole thing.

While life - what we recognize as human life - may not exist within the embryo, this is the first step to creating Nieche's (sp) "Superman". This technology can only be misused by a family (or corporation?) who wants a 6'6" blond hair, blue eyed MAN, capable of warding off cancers and any other life-threatening diseases, and living to be 150 years old or more.

Why should such a creature exist at all?This "Superman" had no need for gods, or "man" - meaning normal man. Those who did not fit the mold of the superman could be exiled or executed - read Brave New World, then talk to me about being 110% behind cloning. This creature could be trained to follow orders, set by whomever created it - Mary Shelley's Frankenstein anyone?

This is a man who, as "Santa Claus" put it, would be a souless creature walking the earth, with no need for anyone or anything but his/her own needs. There are enough of these people walking the earth right now, we don't need to be in the business of creating more.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

[Daniel Madar]

=The Uebermensch described in Also Sprach Zarathustra has absolutely nothing to do with physical characteristics.

The whole Nietzche-Nazi connection was made by Nietzche's sister, a bitter old spinster, who had close ties to Hitler, who made her feel important. Nietzche was dead at that time.

If you want to attack Nietzche do it for a good reason, like his views on women.

Merciless is Mercy.

[This message was edited by Daniel Madar on 11-27-01 at 05:16 PM.]

[Mr. Nemo]

I have yet to see a reasonable, logical moral objection to human cloning. Of course human cloning can be used for selfish purposes, but so can nearly any other kind of technological advance. Just because it's possible to clone hitler doesn't mean it'll happen. And cloning has countless potential benefits for medical advancement.

The only objections I've ever seen to cloning are almost invariably come from people worried about the technology falling down a slippery slope until it is grossly misused, something that doesn't have to happen.

By the way, blackjack, where the hell have you been? I haven't seen any of your posts in a while.

[Felipe Bido]

I agree with Daniel Madar about the whole George Lucas' thing...see that the next Star Wars movie is called "Attack of the Clones"...scary :eek:

:D
-------------------------

No more D, buddy...No more D!- Tenacious D

[IronFist]

This technology can only be misused by a family (or corporation?) who wants a 6'6" blond hair, blue eyed MAN, capable of warding off cancers and any other life-threatening diseases, and living to be 150 years old or more.

Interesting note: Blue eyes and Blonde hair are recessive genes.

Don't read this next part unless you believe in evolution

Seems like the ****her away we got from Africa, there must have been some inbreeding or something to bring out all these recessive traits in Northern Europeans and stuff. I say this with my German ancestory... ewwwwwwww, my great-great-x200-great grandparents might have been brother and sister. EWWWWW!!!!

Iron

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

beer ....

where's my beer?

[rogue]

Where the heck you been Black Jack.

I'm against it. If they can clone sheep then they can clone Rolls.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Black Jack]

Whatsssss up Nemo and Rogue. How are your martial journey's going?

Myself, I have been having a bit of time off from any formated class training for the last two months to clear my thoughts and find which path I am heading on.

I still continue to bang heads with a group of my buddies of different arts, expermenting, working hard on a few basic goals, researching my stuff in different enviroments.

I hope to pick up my Bando training again in the future as well as start on a new path again, be it jkd concepts as before or something new, maybe some more kali, who knows.

I have always been a hodge-podge type of a guy.

Stay safe.

As for the clonning issue, my gripe is only with those that put the sake of religious morality ahead of the betterment of life and science.

The attitude kind of reminds me of what happened to that old astronomer who they locked up for being to smart.

Galilaeo (sp??)

Maybe somebody can clone me the part of the brain that can spell.

Regards

[rogue]

Don't forget the Clone Wars!

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Ryu]

I don't know much about it, and am busy writing tonight. I've had a long philo conversation that was quite enlightening, but draining, so I don't want to even try anything with this right now.

Growing human organs, and cloning such life-saving things as hearts, lungs, etc. are wonderful, and I hope we can help people with this technology.

If one clones and creates actual living, thinking, human beings for the sole purpose of terminating them for their parts.....this is morally wrong, and I don't know any intelligent people who would refute that.


.....But I don't think that is what "cloning" has in store.


As always, find the middle path.

Goodnight.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Ryu]

Oh yeah, almost forgot.

Keep up that will power, GDA! :D

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Fong Sai Yuk]

May Be i could clone myself a sparing partner...

[Jeff Liboiron]

Did they actually clone a human? or a fetus? are they going to continue to "grow" the fetus?

The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you

[IronFist]

I believe they cloned an embryo.

I don't know tho, I don't have time to watch tv (too much time studying and KFO'ing, hehe)

Iron

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

[Xebsball]

I'm OK as long as Hitler and Ralek are not clonned.

----------------------------
You brake my elbow i put your face in s.hit! HA HA HA, how about that, HA HA!
http://www.systemofadown.com/images/blurb3.jpg

[Repulsive Monkey]

Is pitiful move on our part I feel. The number one reason why science is doing it is for the money, and that really is the true motivation most clonists. It is potentially such a backwards step and possibly one which we may not be able to recover from too. I do recognise all the medical advances whic they claim will or might be able to be acheived and I for scientific advances if it erradicate AIDS, Cancer etc. However one cannot be naieve here, and not realise that goverments and militaru gaencies will also be wanting to investigate cloning to their own needs too, and of course the dollar bill price attached to the methodology behind it will be immense and a real maoney maker too. I respect all opinions on this subject, but felt the need to express mine too.

[jameswebsteruk]

A lot of people fear cloning, yet they dont understand it at all.

If I clone myself, a fully formed 32 year old exact copy of myself will not suddenly spring forth from a scientists vat.

What will be produced is a baby, who happens to have the same genetic structure as me. It will still take him 32 years to reach my age, and the chances of his personality being anything like me, are, to be honest, remote. Unless he has the exact same upbringing, is subjected to the same pressures, joys, pains, knows the same people, watches the same tv, reads the same books, has the same teachers, helll, even has the same parents, only then does he stand a chance.

He may not even look like me. His diet will be different, his choice of exercise. His basic features and bone structure would be the same, but he may have a beer gut, or be more like the the rampant stallion of a man that I am now ;)

About the only thing that you could say is with any certainty that he will get acne when he's 14, the poor bast-ard, and it will last a ****n sight longer than he will want it to. :)

The idea, for example, of a thousand little Saddam Husseins being grown to take over the country when Saddam is gone, is quite frankly, ridiculous. There is a far more pleasurable way for Saddam to achieve the same goal, with as much chance as producing the 1000 identical personalities. Yet this is a common argument against the use of cloning.

But I agree that the issue of creating clones for medical use is far more complex, and poses direct moral questions which the act of simply creating a clone does not.

I am undecided in that issue, and I suspect I will be for some time.

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[JWTAYLOR]

As someone with only one kidney and the family history that every single male on my father's side has died before the age of 61 becuase of renal failure, I have always been for cloning another one of me for spare parts. I have absolutely no qualms about creating another one of me, killing him, and taking the goodies for me. Kind of like an auto organ pirate.

But the idea that we could create another Rolls is horrifying. I say we get rid of all genetic proof of Rolls' existence before we move any further.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Daedalus]

Although they did manage to clone a human embryo, the cells only divided a couple of times before it died.
Maybe this is a sign that human beings can't be cloned like animals. Maybe this would drive it home that we have no business playing god.

Won't we ever learn, or do we always have to do this the hard way?

[Repulsive Monkey]

you speak of all the things that could possibly be different in the life of the cloned organism, but pay little heed to the most obvious element. That of science trying (and not really through necessity) to emulate nature. I don't wanna sound like some left-winger animal lib, hardcore de-railed mind, but my opinion, remains (and not hardened or entrenched, not by a long shot) un moved by the arguments for cloning. The cloned organism is the exact copy of you genetically, and therefore has the potential depending on the lifestyle influences it experiences in life as to how far it deviates away from "you" in life as it grows up.
The fact remains that the act committed by the scientists is UNNATURAL and if nature has a methology for duplication (which I believe is called twins!) that substantiates the exact reasoning for what is going here then it would of.

[Daedalus]

Cloning is not all its cracked up to be. Lets say that they take a genetic sample from a 45 year old man and clone him. What you end up with is a child that has the genitic makeup of a 45 year old.

Ha!

[Ralek.]

hey.what iss wrong with cloning rolls?sometimes the clone comes out better.

[Ralek..]

yes, it's true. i have superior trolling abilities.M

[Ryu]

John are you honestly serious about creating a living, thinking, feeling human being and killing him for his parts?? You honestly do not see anything morally object in that? I'm not talking about cloning organs or embryos. I'm talking about killing a living human being with his own feelings, thoughts, dreams, fantasies, etc.

Why not just clone the kidney itself? With the amazing things science is able to do I don't understand why growing a living, thinking, feeling human to kill it 32 years later is the only option.

I just don't see how someone could think such a thing is okay. Especially since the post above described that even a clone of yourself would end up as a completely different individual with his own uniques tastes, thoughts, and human goals.

.......I hope people do not simply ignore the scientific fact that human beings are conscious, thinking, and rational beings. This is MUCH different from cloning embryos and stem cells. I am talking about humans who are grown for the mere sake of termination.

How can one say that is not "immoral"?

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[JWTAYLOR]

If I can just clone a kidney, that would be even great. Otherwise, what it comes down to is who dies, him or me. Which I suppose is where you pick me, and I pick him.
I know it sounds harsh, but I've flatlined from renal failure before. Dead 4 minutes and 11 seconds. I have no doubt that, in that moment, if I had the decision to clone another me and take out that kidney, I wouldn't hesitate an instant.
I give you that he'd be human. He'd be a human that I created for the sole purpose of providing me with life. I doubt I'd let him grow old, as the young organs would be less damaged anyway. I'd much more likely allow it to get to a point that I could count on the organs' future viability, whack it's head off, and put the body on ice, if that would be possible. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth it, as his kidneys would end up being just as bad as mine when he got older anyway. Of course, I'd rather do it without the murder, but again, him or me.


JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Ryu]

I understand where you are coming from, but I rarely believe life is so final as that. That no issue is so incredibly "Him or me" when it comes to creating the ability to make our bodies work better while being mindful of life.
To simply "whack of the head" of a living person is indeed murder. This is why I want science to try to find ways of cloning your actual organs than another living person with whom you would kill. If science can clone you, I have no real doubts that they can find ways of simply cloning your parts. This way no life is destroyed. Not yours or his.

Indeed I agree that it is about "You or him"

That is why I say take that terrible option away, and find a new solution.

sorry to hear about what happened to you though.
:( I've known people who also suffer from the same thing.

Take care,
Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[KC Elbows]

Deadalus- I did not think your genetic makeup changed over your lifespan. 45 or infant, its the same unless you've been doing some really strange things with radiological agents.

As for making a person to use for parts, that's not part of any of the plans I've heard. They're pretty sure they can just make the parts without the person.

As for the soulless clone, I feel for any clones that actually do get made, because it seems many groups think these clones will have no soul/no right to be considered life, etc. Test tube babies are born through an unnatural process, are they soulless? Hell, what do you come in contact with in your activities that has gone through a life that could be viewed as "natural"? Not you or I, not most of the animals we encounter on a daily basis, not any of the animals we eat(not even so-called free-range animals, as animals don't "naturally" live in a fence of any kind except geological and climactic ones). So, because none of us are truly natural, do we have any more soul than a clone would?

Lastly, I think the fears people have of cloning are largely baseless. In order for a clone to become an easy servant, they would need to either be 1)raised from birth by the group that wanted their servitude, or 2)Designed to be mentally deficient. It would be cheaper to raise abandoned babies from birth, than clone new ones, and I don't know about you, but an army of mentally stunted clones doesn't exactly worry me.

The worry about people making perfect people is the closest thing I've heard to a real concern with cloning. However, exactly who is going to spend money on cloning beautiful people to replace everyone else? Where's the profit?

Also, the fear of people owning clones and using them for body parts/as slaves is not a concern with cloning, but a concern with the morality of naturally born people.

Anyways, we shouldn't stop cloning. It's the only form of reproduction that scientists are really good at. :D

[Tigerstyle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I clone myself, a fully formed 32 year old exact copy of myself will not suddenly spring forth from a scientists vat.

...the chances of his personality being anything like me, are, to be honest, remote.[/quote]


Liar! I know the truth! I saw The Sixth Day (Schwarzenegger) and Replicant (Van Damme). Both of them were cloned and resulted in fully grown, exact copies. Even down to the same muscle tone and an exact recreation of their bad accents.

More Van Dammes... Suddenly, the future is looking a little less promising :eek: .

"No Pain - Good."
- neptunesfall

[Mr. Nemo]

"The number one reason why science is doing it is for the money, and that really is the true motivation most clonists."

How do you know? And if this is true, why does this present a risk?

"The fact remains that the act committed by the scientists is UNNATURAL and if nature has a methology for duplication (which I believe is called twins!) that substantiates the exact reasoning for what is going here then it would
of."

What do you mean "UNNATURAL"? What criteria do you use to determine whether something is natural or not, and why does that criteria dictate that unnatural things are automatically bad? Furthermore, the syntax of the second part of this quote makes no sense.

"Lets say that they take a genetic sample from a 45 year old man and clone him. What you end up with is a child that has the genitic makeup of a 45 year old."

Are you joking? I apologize for having no sense of humor if you are. Your genetic makeup is not influenced by your age.

Ryu, JWT, nobody is gonna be cloning entire people, and then killing them for parts.

[Ralek.]

Ralek.. is an imposter.i am the reel relak.Just check the IP address and you can see that it's an imposter.

I love kungfu.

[Ralek..]

perhaps a challenge match in a park on a friday morning is in order you phony!

BJJ is inferior

[nightair]

Didn't you watch the episode of sliders where they used clones for donor body parts..AND THE CLONES TOOK OVER!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: I'm an advocate for clone rights..cutting clones are wrong..clones are people to..we need to educate them and then ...SEND THEM INTO WARRRR!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

---------------------------"uh oh, what is going to happen next?"

[Ralek.]

ok but i can only fight you if yuo are under 98 pounds,invalid on the third friday of every otherr month.

[Ralek..]

fine.you only practice kung-fu right?if you practice anyother style i won't fight you.have you ever faought a national san shou fighter?i have so i really dont need to prove anything,but i will fite you.


BJJ is inferioro

[Ralek.]

well.i did knock up a tai chi instrictor with 1 blow.you very bad other me.i will give you such a pinch.

BJJ ate my balls.

¨

[ElPietro]

I wonder how those who argue moral standards against cloning of cells would feel if someone important in their life depended on this technology to survive. Would they let them die for their standards? I bet they'd say they would until it actually happened and then they'd change their tune.

I'll also add my two bits on genetic makeup...your genes don't change...when you have a kid he/she inherits the parents genetic make-up to form his own. There is no age in your dna. Also, your dna doesn't make up your how you will turn out personality-wise...everyone reacts differently to different stimulus.

[Ryu]

Someone in my life is in need for it. He is a young child who cannot walk, and whose heart may not hold out into his older ages. Even though this is the case, I still observe all sides of issues, and look at other people's pains and fears as well as the person in question.
Life is made up of terrible circumstances at times, and to simply say one "sings a different tune if something happens to him" is very unrealistic and a bit ignorant as well.

Of course the people I love matter to me, but other people's love matters to them as well. I am not so selfish as to think that only I am the one deserving of life, or the one who is "closer" to me.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Ryu]

and for the record, I am not against cloning cells and body parts. I am for this.

I also don't believe people want to 'grow humans to slaughter"

I was simply addressing an issue I heard, and thinking of the worst case scenarios, and how I felt about them.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[KC Elbows]

I'm very sorry to hear that, Ryu. By the same token, you have the rep here of being a very noble person, and I tend to think a difficult life spent surrounded by noble souls is superior to a life of ease without those people.

I'd just like to reiterate that there is no plan I know of to make thinking clones for body parts.

[Ryu]

KC,
Thanks. I agree with you on that. Even though I sometimes face hard issues, and get drained often when I try my best to help others, I wouldn't really have it any other way.

I know that there is no plans to do that. :)
I only wanted to address a "concept" that someone mentioned.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[KC Elbows]

OK, we're playing a hypothetical game, I'll go with that.

So, if society began cloning people in their entirety, making fully functioning humans, and then butchering them for parts, what does this mean. Clearly, it is wrong, not the fault of science(the NATURAL rules of the universe) or the "clones". The people to blame are those using the technology for that purpose. They would need to be stopped, the clones freed, etc. If the world became that sort of place, then the only moral option would be to fight.

I think that it is counter productive to try stopping evil by limiting the amount of good we can do.

[wooha]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Lets say that they take a genetic sample from a 45 year old man and clone him. What you end up with is a child that has the genitic makeup of a 45 year old."

Are you joking? I apologize for having no sense of humor if you are. Your genetic makeup is not influenced by your age.
[/quote]

I'm by no means an expert, but I'd heard from several sources that genes/DNA have a kind of inbuilt expiry date. This means that the kid's 'genetic clock' is going to time out at about the same time the 45 year old's does. Basically he's likely to start developing cancers etc. at a very young age.

[SantaClaus]

you just have a younger twin, or a recouse for that a liver your body wont reject. Christoffer Reeves wants babies so he can walk. He's rich, he can do that. OJ got away with murder, but for the middle class harvesting humans is still a bad thing.

read my good friend's guide to life, you may be enlightened.

http://www.jesus.com/sermons/guide_to_life.html

HO HO HO
http://thumb-2.image.altavista.com/image/100933751

[Black Jack]

Maybe this would drive it home that we have no business playing god

Absurd statements like the one above are where the real problem's lurk and not in the biomedical techonology of cloning.

It is a good testament to the typical arrogance and narrow dogma that the religous right have over how other's should believe.

Won't we ever learn or do we always have to do this the hard way

You should reverse that question and answer it yourself. How many times does science have to kick religion in the ass for you people to wake up and smell the coffee.

The only ethical crossroads that I can see are those created by religous movements and their brainwashed servants who need to keep the coffers full and the pews packed for business.

Therapeutic cloning has the growing potential to cure a vast world of inflictions. Cystic fibrosis, Parkinsons, Alzheimers, Cancer, Aids and other diseases that can ravage our bodies.

That is the "real" moral significance.

The gods at ACT and others labs are using and researching nuclear transfer processes and other cloning technologies for just this goal.

Why would anybody want to stop something like that?

1. Fear
2. Money

Regards

[KC Elbows]

I think one angle people seem to take on the topic is a sort of sci-fi view, where all their thoughts on the subject are based on sensationalist fiction, and forgetting that its just fiction. I mean, which would be scarier, that the replicants from Blade Runner existed and were upset, or that every schmoe in the city got to drive one of those flying cars? I could befriend the replicants, but I'm not sure I could deal with idiot drivers crashing from out of the skies. :D

[Fish of Fury]

i think there's slightly more to it than that BlackJack.

science has worked wonders, but there have also been many attrocities, often due to rushing into new technology without really understanding it (and money was a factor there too i have no doubt)


eg. thalidamide, early polio vaccines, the almost routine removal of womens uterus to treat nervous system complaints/anxiety/hysteria etc.

it can even be said that there has already been deaths associated with genetic modification of food...genetically altered bacteria where used to produce L-Tryptophan for human consumption, but contaminants lead to many cases of illness and at least one death.

i'm not necessarily against cloning...if used wisely it could well be a good thing.
BUT proceed with caution

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"