Why is Lineage so important to some people?

[SantaClaus]

Ok then I'm an instructor under Ashida Kim. Who wants to attend my seminar. How about Master Iron Kim?


Now I say that I'm a Master of Chen style tai chi with strict chen lineage to the founder and recognized by the chen familly.

Or I'm a san shou fighter and Cung Le is my coach.


Lineage not important? In your dreams.
Can I say that Cung Le is my coach when he wasn't? And sell videotapes? I'm using his good name. 50 years from now its just as wrong. Lineage is important, you should give respect where respect is due and not try to leach off of people.

HO HO HO
http://thumb-2.image.altavista.com/image/100933751

[Mr. Nemo]

Good points.

Of course, lineage is not the only thing that's important. And lineage can too easily be faked nowadays.

[joedoe]

Yes, lineage can be important. But a good lineage does not mean you are a superior artist/fighter. It just means that you have learned from a line of good artists/fighters.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[logic]

It's not only who you learn from or the styles you know. But what you put into it.

Honest Neutral Clarity

[thumper]

that's true, but at the same time if i see a seminar by someone who has a great lineage, i am more enticed by that one than by one of a lineage that i don't hold in as high esteem. that's just my warped reality though.

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

[joedoe]

That is fair enough. However, are we talking about attending lessons (i.e the quality of the art/teaching) or are we talking about the ability of the fighter? Obviously you want to learn from the highest quality teachers, but just because you learn from a high quality teacher does not mean that you are automatically a better fighter or more skilled in the MA.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[EARTH DRAGON]

you also said you are this in your profile
I'm a pervert that invades homes and gives free toys. I'm quite pagan and adept at ridding Jesus from Christmass.
you are an a**hole who is being watched very closley by the admin. if you notice your posts on the NPM have been deleted. and your vulgar reponses to many people should soon have you completely deleted.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[joedoe]

Don't be nasty to Santa. He knows who's naughty and nice. :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[scotty1]

When it comes to studying, if someone knows their stuff, then I'll learn off them. I couldn't really care less about the lineage. Although having lineage is kind of proof (though not %100) that they do know their stuff.

[Shaolindynasty]

I know some schools who I beleive they made their lineage up based on some real events that may have happened which makes it real hard to get proof that they are frauds. I would use the abbilities of the instructor to verify wether he is legit or not. Lineage can be so easy to fake, look at paulie zink he was the "monkey king" for like 20 years before people found out he was a fake and he still is going strong cause people who don't surf the net don't know yet. If you pick a master who is dead and link yourself to him and say he made me the next lineage holder before he died, then it would be pretty difficult to find out otherwise unless the master was really famous. I have also seen people with "good lineages" who suck cause their teacher was too comercial and was running a Mcdojo but I don't want to mention any names. So to me Lineage don't mean jack, the proof is in the pudding


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[SantaClaus]

Earthdragon, your just ****ed because I found out that you are a liar and a fraud, not to mention a grandiose egomaniac/cokehead. Your not half as powerful as you'd like to think you are, go back to your own forum where you are still your own god, let your students mentally jerk you off, your not getting the same reverence from me.

My advice to you is to invest in a gerbil.

Taking care of a pet may relieve some of the stress you have built up trying to keep track of your lies.

HO HO HO
http://thumb-2.image.altavista.com/image/100933751

[KC Elbows]

Amen for the comment about good lineage holders going completely commercial. Too common, if you ask me.

[EARTH DRAGON]

you think your sneeky dont you? you were banned and kicked off this forum for making rude and vulgar comments exactly like the ones you just made, but yet you have the balls to come back! I will be sure to let the admin know you have violated your rights once again by posting whatever you feel. Dont you think that I know who you are? To bad all that jealousy you have for me has landed you up having to have a screen name "santa" you are pathetic man. If you still want me to teach you body cordinations just stop on by the school lord knows you need to get your yellow sash...... ha ha ha

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Satanachia]

The way I see it, lineage would be important to get people in. But you're only going to probably attract people who already know what they're doing with actual lineage, otherwise you can just make something up, like "27th Grand Master of Iron-slap-spatula" and everyone who doesn't already know kung fu will be impressed. Meaning you'll attract begginners, but with the end result of lineage being meaningless.

(Oh watch out, he's a student of spoon kung fu...they say he's a direct decendant of the grand master who came up with the style when a thief tried to attack him while he was eating a bowl of soup in the kitchen...but he's the 27th grand master, so it must be good, right?)

As for effectiveness, frankly, it might have some effect, it might not. Someone doesn't need to have a lineage at all to be a good fighter/teacher. Similarly, someone might have a huge important respected lineage, but they might be the worst teacher for you.
I say, go case by case, judge things on what you see, what the teacher can do, what kind of person he is, and not to judge style or teacher effectiveness on how many funky sounding adjectives and ancient names someone can write.

[DrunkMonk]

If your school doesn't have a long lineage, or hasn't kept real good records of who all the previous masters were, does this mean that its not legitimate? Do all legitimate schools have lineages?

Thanx

Andrew

[joedoe]

Lineage is important mainly when it is claimed. It bothers me when schools make up some c0ck and bull story about their lineage. Lineage is a way to gauge what you are getting. Kinda like how some universities are considered better than others based on the calibre of past graduates.

Otherwise, lineage is not that important if what you are learning is worthwhile.

[Chang Style Novice]

Lineage is only important inasmuch as it is a guarantee that you are learning something worth knowing.

[Laughing Cow]

Mongrels also got a lineage.
;)

IMO, lineage doesn't guarantee much it only shows from whom your teachers has learned and his teacher from whom.

It does not show if your teacher or even his teacher is actually qualified/certified to teach or if he has a good grasp of the material taught to him.

Lineage is a good starting point to start your research, but lineage by itself IMO is useless.

And becoming more and more a waste of time considering we are getting more and more politics in CMA these days.

Cheers.

[Vapour]

It's all depends on what you mean by the word "lineage"

Among (some) traditional chinese masters, they differentiate students between normal students and closed door students. To become closed door student, you have to go through certain religious ritual and only then your instructor become sifu. You only get full transmission of the knowledge of the style afterward. Full transmission could be neigon practice or secret forms or it could be tiny bit of detail in the technique which was left out in the normal lesson.

So if your style has this baishi system, lineage is very very important. If your style doesn't, it's more of a issue of respect to the predecessor which is no less important.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Vapour
It's all depends on what you mean by the word "lineage"

Among (some) traditional chinese masters, they differentiate students between normal students and closed door students. To become closed door student, you have to go through certain religious ritual and only then your instructor become sifu. You only get full transmission of the knowledge of the style afterward. Full transmission could be neigon practice or secret forms or it could be tiny bit of detail in the technique which was left out in the normal lesson.

So if your style has this baishi system, lineage is very very important. If your style doesn't, it's more of a issue of respect to the predecessor which is no less important.

Baisi is not necessarily a "religious ritual". In fact, it's very rarely religious at all.

[SevenStar]

Royce would choke lineage.

[SevenStar]

seriously though, no, it doesn't matter, IMO. Lineage is not what I look at. What I look at is whether or not the school has anything to teach me that I find useful. If they do, and they are good at it, and I am properly taught, who cares what the lineage is?

[joedoe]

Lineage in and of itself is not that important unless someone claims a particular lineage and their claim is false. Then I would have trouble trusting that school/teacher because of their false claims.

[Serpent]

Agreed. If a school/teacher doesn't claim a lineage, then no worries. But, if the school/teacher does claim a lineage then it is very important that the claimed lineage is authentic.

[SevenStar]

yeah, I agree with you there. That's more of a trust issue than a lineage issue though

[Vapour]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Royce would choke lineage.

Interesting point. I've been to their site. Though BJJ doesn't use the word lineage, they make it very clear about where and who they got their jujutu. For them, lineage is about respect to the past and that's all.

As long as lineage is about the respect, it's fine. When it's used as "my dad is better than your dad" kid of thing, that is where the problem starts.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Serpent


Baisi is not necessarily a "religious ritual". In fact, it's very rarely religious at all.

No what I meant was that to become a baishi student, you have to go through an initiation ritual which is often religious (daoist) in nature.

In our organization, to make taijiquan as martial arts works in real fight, it is expected that you get hit at least once by the opponent to create opening. So learning Neigon and being able to absorb hit is fundamental to fighting tactics in our style.

In our school neigon is taught to the closed door student only. (btw, I'm not yet a closed door student.) But thing about our school is that this closed door student thing is not so closed as the most people think. It's more like once you got a black belt, they ask you whether you want to become closed door student. (o.k. this didn't come off right, it's not that too easy but you get my drift :-)) Idea is that if you keep your arts too secret, it's one sure way to make the art extinct as lots of martial arts style in China has become.

[dezhen2001]

why get hit once ot create an opening:confused: why not open your own door!:confused:

neigong or no neigong... if someone stabs you so u can have an opening its not much use.

dawood

[davethedragon]

IMO Lineage is not that important- one of the things i noticed when studying wing chun were the differences in the lineages the slight difference in weight distribution in the wsl lineage and in the leung ting for example. not huge differences essentially but the teachers i met made such a big deal dismissing one lineage as useless an not "real" wing chun.
the basic principles of wing chun IMO are the same but people tend to want to stamp their superiority on a certain lineage.
Lineage doesnt amount to much when in a real combat situation.

[yenhoi]

What do you mean legitimate?

Do your hands care in the ring or street?

:eek:

[Water Dragon]

Lineage is very important. Lineage guarantees that you have access to a solid training method. A good lineage includes high level people who are still alive and kicking, not just some long dead master.

Remember though, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
why get hit once ot create an opening:confused: why not open your own door!:confused:

neigong or no neigong... if someone stabs you so u can have an opening its not much use.

dawood

O.K. I didn't come off right again. Taijichuan is close fighting method. Most technique is applied in the distance which is akin to judo where we apply various technique including lock and throw. So the fundamental importance in our empty hand fighting tactic is to get into that vicinity in the first place.

If you do Xingyi for example, opening your own door is what exactly one do. In taijichuan the technique is there in form such as raise hands. And if your opponent is really crap or your skill level is master class, you can let him attack, evade and do a flipping magic like aikido

But in reality, if your opponent is experienced, I don't think they give you that kind of opening. Lot of people use kick as a inital opening especially in sparing competition but I think when the grab and throw is allowed, experienced practioner would break you because you are not rooted right. When I did a bit sparing with Tkd guy, my natural reaction to kick was to grab it which he told me is against the rule of sparing.

In our style, we are expected to move forward at the moment the opponent attack. While it is nice if we can evade or parry opponent attack at this point, in realistic term, that depend on difference in you and your opponent skills. You block and often you get hit.

So basically, I didn't mean we let opponent hit us. There is a saying that there is no attack or defence in taijichuan. Most of taijichuan techniques are counter and that is partly because the tactics we emply. Being hit is a result of our tactic which we perpare for by doing neigon.

Oh, and if my opponent has knife but I don't, first thing which come to my mind is "where the **** is exit?!!" :)

[Wuxia007]

Why is lineage so important to some people when justifying or validating a CMA school?

I never understood why some people are so caught up on lineage. It seems that Wing Chun students are the worst about it.
Real Shaolin monks vs fake Shaolin monks. Learned from Ip Man vs didn't learn from Ip Man. Original mantis style vs later mantis styles. WHO CARES?!
I don't give a flying flip who the instructor is or where he/she came from. Can he/she teach me what I want to learn?
I'm tired of hearing instructors and students claim, "My grandmaster/founder of our system once killed a gang of 30 people with his pinky." as some kind of selling point.
I'm always like, "That's great! Where can I find him? No? He's dead? Well, what flippin' good does that claim do me? I don't care what your grandmaster or founder achieved. That has no affect on your ability to teach me."

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Wuxia007;1285185]Why is lineage so important to some people when justifying or validating a CMA school?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name dropping unfortunately is very common in kung fu including in wing chun circles.
But while lineage labels abound-lineage itself together with demonstrating of relevant skills and teaching ability
are relevant in finding a good teacher.
Wing chun has spread very unevenly- best avoided in most cases.

[mawali]

It isn't important, or it is as important as you make it out to be.
The criterion should be the ability to impart some knowledge, skill and application so as to allow for true discipline and understanding. Anything other is usually obfuscation, which people seem to enjoy when you really examine the present situation with CMA.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Lineage and knowledge: 2 different things

Transmission and knowledge: 2 different things

Lineage and ability: 2 different things

Knowledge and ability: 2 different things

Transmission and ability: 2 different things

Lineage and transmission: 2 different things


mickey

[SteveLau]

Greetings,

Lineage and knowledge: 2 different things

Transmission and knowledge: 2 different things

Lineage and ability: 2 different things

Knowledge and ability: 2 different things

Transmission and ability: 2 different things

Lineage and transmission: 2 different things


mickey

Well written, Mickey. Lineage is important to me. The question should be how important it is. Lineage tells us whom the knowledge came from, what the lineage transmits, what are the differences from other lineages, why is it so, etc. Unfortunately, some students place too much importance on or ignore the importance of it. Sign.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[RenDaHai]

Well, I think its about why you learn Kung Fu. At the beginning when you want you just want to be good at it, then lineage doesn't matter, you need a good teacher. But after some time people who really stick with it tend to become their own teacher. In that case sometimes you are more concerned with the content you are learning than the teacher because you will make that content your own anyway, so lineage becomes very important.

[Mor Sao]

lineage means pretty much nothing.

I have met people who pander their sash under certain masters, as if just being in the school with that teacher makes them good at the style.

Nope.

Knowing where you come from is important to a point.

Hard work and training the crap out of your material is more important.

P.S. Many of the so called masters in the USA have no lineage in China. None. It was made up by teachers here. But they can kick the everlasting crap out of you.

Lineage does not help you fight nor train.

[bawang]

lineage is important if you want what is real. thats what separates kung fu from rennasance reenactment. however most of these hillbilly nobody lineage battles are dumb

[sanjuro_ronin]

When MA were about fighting and survival, lineages meant nothing.
Now that MA are about fluff and ego, lineages mean something.
Enough said.

[David Jamieson]

We ascribe "importance" to whatever we like.
If that's what is important to you, so be it.
Ultimately, all is vanity, so it's not really relevant what someone else likes.
What do you like? What do you give importance? That's what really matters.

Martial arts practices can have any aspect in them that attracts a person.
Wrestling, boxing, lineage, cultural affinity, etc etc.
We can each decide what we like and the rest of the world doesn't matter really.

[MightyB]

If you come from a good kung fu school, with a long and verifiable lineage - then lineage is important. If you come from made up bullsh*t, then you tend to scoff at the importance of lineage.

[David Jamieson]

If you come from a good kung fu school, with a long and verifiable lineage - then lineage is important. If you come from made up bullsh*t, then you tend to scoff at the importance of lineage.

The proof is in the ability to apply. Not in who your teacher was/is.

I think that the classic disconnect is there. People who train to fight don't put a lot of stock in lineage either. it's not like you're going to learn anything by osmosis. And there are loads of genuine and authentic kung fu schools that haven't fronted a fighter to date.

Which is why I say, it's not important except if you want it to be important.

[GeneChing]

...to truly understand Chinese martial arts, you must understand Chinese culture. And to truly understand Chinese culture, you must engage Confucianism.

If you just want to learn how to fight, you don't necessarily need all of the baggage that Chinese culture brings, like lineage. But there are so many treasures within Chinese culture that it's a shame to discard it for anyone who isn't a simpleton.

[MightyB]

The proof is in the ability to apply. Not in who your teacher was/is.

I think that the classic disconnect is there. People who train to fight don't put a lot of stock in lineage either. it's not like you're going to learn anything by osmosis. And there are loads of genuine and authentic kung fu schools that haven't fronted a fighter to date.

Which is why I say, it's not important except if you want it to be important.

bullsh*t - would you go to learn BJJ from someone with an unproven or unverifiable lineage? Same standards hold true for kung fu. Most likely if the person isn't displaying proper skill, it's because they've faked or fudged a claim on lineage. They never were disciples or they never had any real time with the instructor yet, because they saw so and so in a seminar, they claim to be of that lineage. It's usually not difficult to find out who has real lineage vs fake with a little research.

[Jimbo]

Lineage can be important to a degree. That is, if you claim to be "X" system, then you should have trained under a competent teacher of "X" system. But from there, what you do with it becomes the really important thing. There are plenty of people who come from authentic lineages yet suck at MA. An authentic lineage does not miraculously turn you into a great MAist. It's more like a treasure map; the directions are there, but you must do the digging yourself, often through hard rock.

Problems arise when some people point to the person who drew the map as being more important than following its instructions and doing the hard work. They want to feel special through some tenuous connection, often indirectly, to some historical figure. Then the focus becomes acting superior and sniping others behind their backs. The really sad thing is that nobody in the real world knows or gives a crap. Unfortunately, this passive-aggressive behavior is more common in CMA than other types of MA.

[MightyB]

Lineage can be important to a degree. That is, if you claim to be "X" system, then you should have trained under a competent teacher of "X" system. But from there, what you do with it becomes the really important thing. There are plenty of people who come from authentic lineages yet suck at MA. An authentic lineage does not miraculously turn you into a great MAist. It's more like a treasure map; the directions are there, but you must do the digging yourself, often through hard rock.

Problems arise when some people point to the person who drew the map as being more important than following its instructions and doing the hard work. They want to feel special through some tenuous connection, often indirectly, to some historical figure. Then the focus becomes acting superior and sniping others behind their backs. The really sad thing is that nobody in the real world knows or gives a crap. Unfortunately, this passive-aggressive behavior is more common in CMA than other types of MA.

True

I'd wager though that the majority of so called lineage holders didn't go through the legitimate process of discipleship. So one fake begets another fake begets another - and so on. You can't put the sh*t back in the horse unfortunately. But, it's been my experience that a person of true lineage will stand out in terms of ability and knowledge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

bullsh*t - would you go to learn BJJ from someone with an unproven or unverifiable lineage? Same standards hold true for kung fu. Most likely if the person isn't displaying proper skill, it's because they've faked or fudged a claim on lineage. They never were disciples or they never had any real time with the instructor yet, because they saw so and so in a seminar, they claim to be of that lineage. It's usually not difficult to find out who has real lineage vs fake with a little research.

Not sure if we can use that as a gauge since a "true" BJJ guy will prove his skill REGARDLESS of lineage.
BJJ is a system in which skill legitimizes a lineage and I am not talking about skill of some dead founder or great master but CURRENT skill of CURRENT practitioners and what I mean is this:
A good lineage is one that CURRENT practitioners are good fighters.

Or, if I may:
Would you rather learn BJJ from a guy that can choke you out and dominate you on the ground and thinks lineage is irrelevant or learn from a guy with a great lineage that YOU can choke out?

Sure this is an extreme example BUT the point is that lineage only carries you so far ( and we all know guys from verified good lineages that suck).

The proof is in the pudding that you are currently eating, not the one that some great master made 50 years ago.

[MightyB]

Not sure if we can use that as a gauge since a "true" BJJ guy will prove his skill REGARDLESS of lineage.
BJJ is a system in which skill legitimizes a lineage and I am not talking about skill of some dead founder or great master but CURRENT skill of CURRENT practitioners and what I mean is this:
A good lineage is one that CURRENT practitioners are good fighters.


Sigh*
Really Now: https://www.facebook.com/graciebarra.gbtijucal/videos/1610525802563821/

If you don't have real lineage you're a bullsh*tter regardless of style.

[MightyB]

My point is - a BJJ that has earned a belt through a legitimate school has real lineage. Same for a kung fu guy who's EARNED legitimate discipleship from a LEGITIMATE LINEAGE HOLDER WHO REALLY EARNED THEIR DISCIPLESHIP.

A faker is a faker and you can't do anything about that except RESEARCH! Because someone who's earned a true discipleship in a legitimate Lineaged system is going to be skilled.

[MightyB]

When I read threads with this sort of heading it usually means this:
The person in question probably just finished watching 4 or 5 youtube videos and feels they should open a school. They then come onto sites and forums like this posting the "does lineage really matter?" question because they're looking for validation.

Guess what? it does. If you can't prove a legitimate lineage and have no one to back up your claim outside of your kwoon - you're bullsh*t. End of story.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sigh*
Really Now: https://www.facebook.com/graciebarra.gbtijucal/videos/1610525802563821/

If you don't have real lineage you're a bullsh*tter regardless of style.


No one is disputing that of course, a person should be of the lineage they claim to be, that is a no brainer.

Wither or not lineage matters as much as some people make it out to matter is the issue.

You said this here:
Because someone who's earned a true discipleship in a legitimate Lineaged system is going to be skilled.


And I ask this:
Skilled in WHAT?

[MightyB]

And I ask this:
Skilled in WHAT?

When they demonstrate a form - it will be sharp, display the proper jing - and will not have much variance from other legitimate practitioners of the same style regardless of their geography. They will also know the core tenants of their system.

They will know the self defense applications of their system. They will be able to apply their preferred techniques in a realistic / live scenario.

People aren't singled out for discipleship if they can't do the above, that's why there are so few legitimate lineage holders.

[David Jamieson]

bullsh*t - would you go to learn BJJ from someone with an unproven or unverifiable lineage? Same standards hold true for kung fu. Most likely if the person isn't displaying proper skill, it's because they've faked or fudged a claim on lineage. They never were disciples or they never had any real time with the instructor yet, because they saw so and so in a seminar, they claim to be of that lineage. It's usually not difficult to find out who has real lineage vs fake with a little research.

I wouldn't learn BJJ from someone I rolled with who couldn't lock or tie me up. I honestly could not care less who their teacher was.
You can't fake bad BJJ.
You can fake bad Karate, or Kung Fu simply because of kata/forms, lack of sparring and spending a lot of time focused on movement without application.

Not so with bjj, jj, mma, boxing, etc or any of the others. the training cycle has none of that. It's roadwork, spar/roll repeat. Pretty different.

I do agree with Gene that the lineage is important in TCMA and JMA in particular because of Confucianism more than requirement. That is all good and it really does serve the art as a whole, because without it, the art is not whole in context to that.

In mma type stuff, it's easy to find out who is a good teacher based on how they can handle themselves. It's a very different experience altogether than what you'll find in a traditional kwoon. having been exposed to both, there is a lot more lineage talk in kwoons than in gyms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When they demonstrate a form - it will be sharp, display the proper jing - and will not have much variance from other legitimate practitioners of the same style regardless of their geography. They will also know the core tenants of their system.

They will know the self defense applications of their system. They will be able to apply their preferred techniques in a realistic / live scenario.

People aren't singled out for discipleship if they can't do the above, that's why there are so few legitimate lineage holders.

Fair enough.

[David Jamieson]

also, "tenet" not "tenant"

tenet = core principle
tenant = your renter

Pedantry!

[MightyB]

there is a lot more lineage talk in kwoons than in gyms.

Not really because when two BJJ / Judo guys meet, one of the first things asked is "where'd you get your belt?".

That's a lineage question bro.

[David Jamieson]

Not really because when two BJJ / Judo guys meet, one of the first things asked is "where'd you get your belt?".

That's a lineage question bro.

lol, no, that's more your own pedantry really.

Typically, I don't hear that question much. Not even in Kung Fu quite frankly.
Also, that kind of question is something you would ask after they handed you your ass or you theirs. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not really because when two BJJ / Judo guys meet, one of the first things asked is "where'd you get your belt?".

That's a lineage question bro.

Really?
I knew that was the case years ago when BJJ was just getting out there ( there was even some "lineage wars" between a few groups) but now?
And Judo guys ALL have the some lineage basically.

To be honest, the only time I have ever seen a linage question asked of some BJJ guy ( never seen one of a judoka by the way) is when someone gets their ass handed to them really bad and then it the "where the **** did you get your belt?"

[MightyB]

Really?
I knew that was the case years ago when BJJ was just getting out there ( there was even some "lineage wars" between a few groups) but now?
And Judo guys ALL have the some lineage basically.

To be honest, the only time I have ever seen a linage question asked of some BJJ guy ( never seen one of a judoka by the way) is when someone gets their ass handed to them really bad and then it the "where the **** did you get your belt?"

whatevs.

There has to be a defining line between bullsh*t and legitimate in TCMA. And right now, the defining line is lineage which is fine by me. If you want to stand by and allow more fakers into an already overcrowded with bs market by tacitly complying with their "does lineage matter?" search for validation because they have none - that's on you.

And you're being a little full of sh*t right now anyway because you're telling me that you'd go to a bjj or judo school or seminar to train and not want to know the lineage / background of the instructor? Yeah right...

[bawang]

if u trained under randy coulture or rickson gracie that pretty important lineage

leung ting not so much

[YouKnowWho]

I prefer go to "MIT" than go to "Liberty Hill Community College" because I believe MIT can give me better education than LHCC can.

The worse student from MIT may not be better than the best student from LHCC. But the average student from MIT will definitely be better than the average student from LHCC. There is a good reason that the starting salary for someone from MIT is much higher than the starting salary for someone from some state university.

[Mor Sao]

people are smoking some serious weed.

MIT has nothing to do with MA.

Why bring up such drek?

The analogy does not work.

[-N-]

There has to be a defining line between bullsh*t and legitimate [...]

"He says you're not his blackbelt [...]"


http://youtu.be/nCmK02VXaaY

[sanjuro_ronin]

whatevs.

There has to be a defining line between bullsh*t and legitimate in TCMA. And right now, the defining line is lineage which is fine by me. If you want to stand by and allow more fakers into an already overcrowded with bs market by tacitly complying with their "does lineage matter?" search for validation because they have none - that's on you.

And you're being a little full of sh*t right now anyway because you're telling me that you'd go to a bjj or judo school or seminar to train and not want to know the lineage / background of the instructor? Yeah right...

Wow, someone ****ed in your corn flakes?
The point David and I are making is NOT that lineage doesn't matter, it is that it matters LESS than skill and ability to actually DO a martial art, ie: Fight.

You are quite correct that I would won't to know the lineage of a person that I train under, but what you don't seem to realize is that I would want to know about their fighting skills FAR MORE than their lineage.

And since you brought up fakers ( even though no one was talking about them), let me put it this way:
No one that can actually FIGHT with their style is a faker and it can be argued that some that DOES have an approved lineage and CAN'T fight ( and we have seen our share) may, it can be argued, viewed as a "fake" MA since, as well all know, MA IS about FIGHTING far more than it is about anything else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"He says you're not his blackbelt [...]"


http://youtu.be/nCmK02VXaaY

Well done.
People should actually LISTEN to what the BJJ BB tells this guy, especially the part where he says how he ( the legit BB) has actually FOUGHT ( even gotten his leg broken).
You know why this happened right? how this guy got caught in his bs right?
It wasn't because he didn't have his lineage "papers" it because he COULDN'T fight/roll.
THAT is how you expose a fraud.

[MightyB]

Wow, someone ****ed in your corn flakes?


You could say someone pee'd in my cornflakes, they've been doing it to all of us for far too long and I say we start to draw a line and be vigilante against this bullsh*t. We are tacitly allowing nobodys to upjump their status in TCMA thereby diluting the TCMA pool by not being vigilant in saying lineage matters. If someone's a phenom fighter that made up their own "style", then they should just say that it's their own style and their record will speak for itself. But if someones claiming shaolin, or choy le fut or whatever and they have no lineage/discipleship, then we call them out because it's bullsh*t. And it's not that hard for someone like that to align themselves with a legitimate school and gain lineage if they're willing to put in the work, but that's the problem, they want the status without the work. So guess what - <all caps for emphasis> LINEAGE MATTERS.

"calling out" doesn't mean we have to go about picking fights with every school or instructor we don't agree with, "calling out" is simply responding to these questions about why lineage matters with a simple response that goes something like this: Lineage does matter because it's the only way we can verify a person's claim to a traditional Chinese martial art style.

[-N-]

Well done.
People should actually LISTEN to what the BJJ BB tells this guy, especially the part where he says how he ( the legit BB) has actually FOUGHT ( even gotten his leg broken).
You know why this happened right? how this guy got caught in his bs right?
It wasn't because he didn't have his lineage "papers" it because he COULDN'T fight/roll.
THAT is how you expose a fraud.

I think that video supports both your and MightyB's perspectives on the topic.

The instructor apparently rolled with the faker and found he had no clue.

He also asked the guy's supposed teacher and found/confirmed the faker wasn't what he claimed.

There are lots of guys like that faker who try to ride on the reputation of others.

They might be exposed by test of skill. They might be exposed by checking with the claimed lineage.

Lineage is no guarantee, but it can be one way of trying to maintain quality control.

And there are ways to have quality without "lineage".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lineage does matter because it's the only way we can verify a person's claim to a traditional Chinese martial art style.

YES, on THAT regard we agree 100%.
I would just word it this way:
Lineage does matter because it's the only way we can verify a person's claim to REPRESENT a traditional Chinese martial art style.

I am sure you see the big difference between a guy that has done WC for example, maybe even a few styles and does it for the skill as opposed to someone Claiming to REPRESENT a style.

And that is the divide, You are, rightly, making this a fraud issue BUT we aren't since we ALL agree that is unacceptable and that lineage is crucial in that matter.
That is a given.

What the the posted that resurrected this thread was this:

Why is lineage so important to some people when justifying or validating a CMA school?

I never understood why some people are so caught up on lineage. It seems that Wing Chun students are the worst about it.
Real Shaolin monks vs fake Shaolin monks. Learned from Ip Man vs didn't learn from Ip Man. Original mantis style vs later mantis styles. WHO CARES?!
I don't give a flying flip who the instructor is or where he/she came from. Can he/she teach me what I want to learn?
I'm tired of hearing instructors and students claim, "My grandmaster/founder of our system once killed a gang of 30 people with his pinky." as some kind of selling point.
I'm always like, "That's great! Where can I find him? No? He's dead? Well, what flippin' good does that claim do me? I don't care what your grandmaster or founder achieved. That has no affect on your ability to teach me."

And in that regard ( and the fraud issue aside), in terms of technical skill and fighting ability and so forth, lineage means LESS than skill.

The issue we have in TCMA is not JUST one of frauds, it also one of legit MA that don't have the actual skills they SAY they do and i think that is a far worse issue.

But we Can agree to disagree, it's all good.

[-N-]

There are lots of guys like that faker who try to ride on the reputation of others.

They might be exposed by test of skill. They might be exposed by checking with the claimed lineage.

Lineage is no guarantee, but it can be one way of trying to maintain quality control.

And there are ways to have quality without "lineage".

Even within a lineage, there is skill and there is skill.

And within that group, people know who is the real deal.

[MightyB]

I would just word it this way:
Lineage does matter because it's the only way we can verify a person's claim to REPRESENT a traditional Chinese martial art style.


This is a great response to the age old question of "does lineage matter?"

[MightyB]

people are smoking some serious weed.

MIT has nothing to do with MA.

Why bring up such drek?

The analogy does not work.

It does work as an analogy. He's saying that lineage helps you to know the reputation for the value of the instruction that you'll get. He's saying that even though you can learn engineering skills at both a community college or MIT, MIT has the better reputation - this reputation is based on the level of instruction and the skills that you'll be required to learn... i.e. the curriculum. And people outside of those institutions would be willing to pay more to employees who went through MIT's verified curriculum.

Your lineage tells an outsider within the TCMA world if you went to a community college or MIT for your instruction.

[mickey]

Greetings,

"Your lineage tells an outsider within the TCMA world if you went to a community college or MIT for your instruction."

In TCMA it is the impact of your fist; therefore, it does not matter where you go. It is the kung fu you subject yourself to to acquire real skills.

mickey

[MightyB]

Hey guys... ummm you know - I've been watching you know - youtube videos for a long time, and you know I've watched the, uhhh, bum bo video like 37 times, and you know ummm, I uhhh - I uhhh think I do it as good as the guy, ummm, you know the guy in the youtube video, and I ummm, I uhhh, I lift weights, and jog, and stuff, and I hit bags and ummm, it's not about lineage right? cuz, ummm, I don't know anything about the guy in the youtube, but uhhh, I'm as good at the bum bo as him, so uhhh, you know, and I think I can fights and stuff cuz this one time, there was this guy, and you know, we like got in a fight, and ummm, nobody fights like those forms youtube videos anyway, so umm I uh, got in a fight with this guy and I you know, I think I won cuz he had a black eye and we wuz drunk - he's my cousin, but he's tough, so it's like, I'm tough too cuz ummm, I won

anyway, I watched all those grasey videos - the portuguese guys that wrastle, I watched them too so you know, I didn't find anybody to practice with, but I watched them, and you know when I watch the ufc now, I know what they'll do and I can like yell out all the counters for the moves their in, so you know ummm, I uhh I know grasey ufc style too, but
you know lineage, does it really matter, cuz you know
I think I can teach that bum bo now and I tought my cousin how to do it after we got in that fight
but how I taught him didn't really look like the stuff that guy was doing in the youtube cuz nobody fights like that anyway, so we just ummm, hit bags and stuff, and watched another youtube video on moo tie and did some round house kicks cuz they are better and more realistic than the kung fu bum bo, but
I guess what I'm askin' is - does lineage really matter cuz I can do the bum bo, so doesn't that make me a mantis kun fu man?

http://www.bite.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/alwaysunny-roundhouse.gif

[Wuxia007]

When I read threads with this sort of heading it usually means this:
The person in question probably just finished watching 4 or 5 youtube videos and feels they should open a school. They then come onto sites and forums like this posting the "does lineage really matter?" question because they're looking for validation.

Guess what? it does. If you can't prove a legitimate lineage and have no one to back up your claim outside of your kwoon - you're bullsh*t. End of story.

I watched 8 YouTube videos.

[MightyB]

I watched 8 YouTube videos.

:eek: D@mnnn - that makes you Sijo!




<Too funny Wuxia007, I almost spit coffee out my nose on that one.>

[-N-]

:eek: D@mnnn - that makes you Sijo!




<Too funny Wuxia007, I almost spit coffee out my nose on that one.>

If you post a video after, then you are a Grand Ultimate Si Whatever.

[Mor Sao]

It does work as an analogy. He's saying that lineage helps you to know the reputation for the value of the instruction that you'll get. He's saying that even though you can learn engineering skills at both a community college or MIT, MIT has the better reputation - this reputation is based on the level of instruction and the skills that you'll be required to learn... i.e. the curriculum. And people outside of those institutions would be willing to pay more to employees who went through MIT's verified curriculum.

Your lineage tells an outsider within the TCMA world if you went to a community college or MIT for your instruction.

umm, no.

most MA teachers in the past in China were illiterate. Had no education other than what they were taught by their teachers.

You cannot compare colleges to MA training. Does not work. Apples and oranges.

Again, lineage offers nothing, absolutely nothing to your training. Other than historical relevance of knowing where your material came from.

Too many people worry about lineage versus asking themselves 3 questions:

1. What is the technique?

2. What is it for?

3. How do I train it and apply it.

Met too many fools who pander their lineage as if it helps them fight or train. Too many idiots out there who practice forms they do not know how to use, but keep teaching these forms for rank yet have no idea what the forms are for or how to use them.

If they have a MIT degree they should be strung up for wasting peoples hard earned money and time.

Train better, and put the whole lineage thing on the back burner. Lineage is part of life, but has nothing to do with training.

[Krottyman]

umm, no.

most MA teachers in the past in China were illiterate. Had no education other than what they were taught by their teachers.

You cannot compare colleges to MA training. Does not work. Apples and oranges.

While I agree with most of your post, are you certain this excerpt from this quote is true?

There is an awful amount of literature from famous practitioners compiled and translated in recent years. For example, I heard that Qi Jiguang's writings had a lot of information on old weapons forms; with this we've become aware of many Kung Fu styles that are either extinct or have their sets incorporated into modern styles. Military exams in the Qing Dynasty contain some literacy tests.

Then again I suppose in his era he was an exception, not the rule.

Edit: heh my phone. Blame my sausage fingers

[Krottyman]

Whoops, meant to add to the discussion itself as well- a bit long, apologies in advance.

When I was shopping for Kung Fu schools near me I tried to look at the Lineage information of the instructors, sometimes digging up photos to confirm existence of said lineages. I know it's not a guarantee of effectiveness but I still really desire that of a school.

Why?
-Many teachers have left China. I'd imagine a good chunk are in Taiwan, but it still motivates me to find anyone in the States. No doubt they've taught folks abroad. Even if they are no longer alive, or no longer widely teaching, I still see a lot of value in their presence here for cultural reasons.

-I took a Taichi College class without having done any research on the instructor. In retrospect, her forms were great and she was in better shape than me for sure, but Wushu wasn't what I wanted and might have given me wrong ideas about Taichi. Sure enough, I saw the Kung Fu Quest episode on Tai Chi and the training looked nothing alike. It also convinced me that Tai Chi could be used for self defense far more than my teacher did. (I still remember her telling us at our final class before our forms "exam": "Tai Chi is a complete martial art. You have Karate, Jujitsu, Taekwondo, but Tai Chi is complete and can be used very well for self defense. Just be patient." Cause, you know, forms and showing us applications while never letting us practice it = self defense).

But then I hear of guys like Tim Cartmell, David Ross, Stuart Shaw, etc. who have learned from the former.

Call me a a Romanticist/Naive Idiot, I guess. Being Chinese myself I've gotten a touch jealous of their backgrounds (not that being Chinese is insurance against fraud). I mean, I can find a TKD studio everywhere I can find a Starbucks, if only I could find something of a similar ilk for Kung Fu (well, good ones, anyway).

Edits: Sausauge fingers; had to proofread on laptop. Plus a few things added

[bawang]

the problem with made up kung fu lineage is those guys ask for money to learn from them. if they teach their made up sh1t for free nobody would care

[Krottyman]

the problem with made up kung fu lineage is those guys ask for money to learn from them. if they teach their made up sh1t for free nobody would care

Haha well time is money :P

[bawang]

Haha well time is money :P

maybe u will find this interesting, theres bad blood between karate and fujian kung fu ppl because of lineage. the big karate families know exactly where their karate came from but been playing dumb and denying for over 80 years now. i guess ppl get mad over lineage cuz its sort of like stealing intellectual property.

[Krottyman]

Yep, I'm aware of the connection. I saw Kung Fu quest- White Crane- sone folks do attribute their lineage to a master in China, there's debate as to whether their ancetor was indeed Chinese or just someone who learned from China.

But the Bubishi (Karate "bible") is pretty good proof that the Chinese influence is there, no doubt about it. So Karateka can deny their heritage all they want the evidence gives credit where it's due.

Wasn't aware of bad blood though, I am visiting China next year, may have to visit Fujian and see for myself :)

[bawang]

Wasn't aware of bad blood though, I am visiting China next year, may have to visit Fujian and see for myself :)


the gist of it is most of the styles tracked down descendants of their masters in the 1970s and got a bunch of info but went back to japan pretending nothing happened. the fujian guys were mad they didnt get any money. then 80s came and govt started upping the anti japan sentiments and the fujian ppl cut off contact. as far as i understand the white crane guys are unrelated and are just tricking japanese "karate pilgrims" for money

[Kellen Bassette]

I always heard that Karate came from Kung Fu, specifically Fujian Kung Fu, wasn't aware of any traditional Karate that denied that. The actual lineage could be a bit murky since Karate comes from a mish mash of different Okinawanized Kung Fu systems.

[bawang]

I always heard that Karate came from Kung Fu, specifically Fujian Kung Fu, wasn't aware of any traditional Karate that denied that. The actual lineage could be a bit murky since Karate comes from a mish mash of different Okinawanized Kung Fu systems.

karate lineage is actually pretty clear and straightforward. shotokan related styles came from uncle wang. every other style came from a mr liu at the ryukyu embassy in beijing. uechi ryu founder learned from mr liu's student zhou zihe.
miyagi trained with yang zhaoshui in 1915

[Jimbo]

It seemed to me that the karate people most interested in researching their arts' Chinese origins tended to be Okinawan stylists from Uechi-ryu, Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu, etc. This seemed to hit a peak in the 80s or 90s.

During the late 70s, I trained for about 18 months under a Shi-to-ryu sensei from Japan. He always admitted that karate's origins came from China, but he had a very anti-Chinese and anti-CMA attitude, and so did some of his top students. And being ABJ (American-born Japanese) myself, he sort of expected me to share his views, which he only expressed occasionally. He was a big guy with outstanding fighting and teaching ability (the reason I wanted to learn from him), but when he said certain things, I felt a bit put off. During those times he resembled the evil Japanese villains in Fist of Fury, lol. One reason I discontinued training there. At least he never denied his art's CMA origins, but according to him, it was the Okinawans and especially the Japanese who made it into an effective art.

[Kellen Bassette]

Miyagi studied in China, but his primary teacher was Kanryo Higashionna.Higashionna is supposed to have learned from Ryu Ryuko, so you have at least two different Chinese influences there. That's what I mean by murky. These guys didn't study one Gong Fu system and pass it down, they studied with several different instructors and practiced Okinawan Te, which was most likely a mixed bag of CMAs to begin with.

[bawang]

but when he said certain things, I felt a bit put off. During those times he resembled the evil Japanese villains in Fist of Fury, lol. One reason I discontinued training there. At least he never denied his art's CMA origins, but according to him, it was the Okinawans and especially the Japanese who made it into an effective art.

this is basically how they rustled the fujian kung fu poples jimmies
Miyagi studied in China, but his primary teacher was Kanryo Higashionna.Higashionna is supposed to have learned from Ryu Ryuko,

miyagi was in fujian for 1 year and he made modifications from the time he spent there


These guys didn't study one Gong Fu system and pass it down, they studied with several different instructors and practiced Okinawan Te, which was most likely a mixed bag of CMAs to begin with.
no they literally learned one gong fu system

[Krottyman]

It seemed to me that the karate people most interested in researching their arts' Chinese origins tended to be Okinawan stylists from Uechi-ryu, Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu, etc. This seemed to hit a peak in the 80s or 90s.

During the late 70s, I trained for about 18 months under a Shi-to-ryu sensei from Japan. He always admitted that karate's origins came from China, but he had a very anti-Chinese and anti-CMA attitude, and so did some of his top students. And being ABJ (American-born Japanese) myself, he sort of expected me to share his views, which he only expressed occasionally. He was a big guy with outstanding fighting and teaching ability (the reason I wanted to learn from him), but when he said certain things, I felt a bit put off. During those times he resembled the evil Japanese villains in Fist of Fury, lol. One reason I discontinued training there. At least he never denied his art's CMA origins, but according to him, it was the Okinawans and especially the Japanese who made it into an effective art.

Possible that might have to do with anti-Chinese sentiment during the 20th century in general?

Which also reminds me, didn't Mas Oyama have a high opinion on Taikiken (Yi Quan I believe)?

[Jimbo]

Possible that might have to do with anti-Chinese sentiment during the 20th century in general?

Which also reminds me, didn't Mas Oyama have a high opinion on Taikiken (Yi Quan I believe)?

Yes, and it went both ways, I know. I personally find any type of militant nationalism off-putting.

I do believe Mas Oyama had a high opinion of some CMAs, like Xingyi, etc. Oyama was actually a Japanese citizen of Korean descent.

[Jimbo]

this is basically how they rustled the fujian kung fu poples jimmies

Yes. IMO, when a person disrespects or denies their MA's own origins, they fail to realize that without what came before, they wouldn't have what they have now. They wouldn't have jack****. It's insulting one's art and self without even realizing it.

[bawang]

one fascinating thing about okinawa karate is it is very helpful in cross examining kung fu. from karate history we can verify that white crane and other fujian kung fu styles are actually only about 100 years old. so lineage can be pretty helpful in history research

[Krottyman]

Yep, Karate (and me being ABC) got me interested in checking out Kung Fu later down the road, haha

[David Jamieson]

one fascinating thing about okinawa karate is it is very helpful in cross examining kung fu. from karate history we can verify that white crane and other fujian kung fu styles are actually only about 100 years old. so lineage can be pretty helpful in history research

That is an astute observation Bawang. :)
Because it is true. It is in the Okinawan styles that you see the connection to the chinese martial arts more so than anything else there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The oldest books I have on Okinawan karate, including the bubishi, openly state that Okinawan karate is from China, typically Fujian White Crane or 5 Ancestors or a combination.
There is some evidence to show that Uechi ryu has either SPM or southern dragon influence also.

Okinawan karats has always been open about the roots of their MA, not so much the Japanese karate-ka's of course.

[MightyB]

You guys might find these Links interesting:

Go Kenki: The Undercover Kung-fu Pioneer of Okinawan Karate By Jesse Enkamp (http://www.karatebyjesse.com/go-kenki-the-undercover-kung-fu-pioneer-of-okinawan-karate/)

and here's a link to:
Free KARATEbyJesse eBook! – The Matsuyama Theory (feat. Sensei Patrick McCarthy) (http://www.karatebyjesse.com/free-karatebyjesse-ebook-the-matsuyama-theory-feat-sensei-patrick-mccarthy/)

Direct link to the free ebook pdf:
http://cdn.karatebyjesse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/The_Matsuyama_Theory_Free_KbJ_eBook.pdf

[Jimbo]

The oldest books I have on Okinawan karate, including the bubishi, openly state that Okinawan karate is from China, typically Fujian White Crane or 5 Ancestors or a combination.
There is some evidence to show that Uechi ryu has either SPM or southern dragon influence also.

Okinawan karats has always been open about the roots of their MA, not so much the Japanese karate-ka's of course.

This is why karate has come to mean 'empty hand'. In Japanese, 'Kara' is a h0mophone that can mean 'Tang' in Chinese, referring to the Tang Dynasty or things Chinese, which was the original character for karate (Tang Hand); or it could be a different character meaning 'empty'. Then, I believe it was Funakoshi, himself an Okinawan, who suggested it be changed to the 'kara' meaning 'empty' to appeal more to the Japanese public by erasing any association to China.

In Korean, 'Tang Soo' is the pronunciation of the original meaning of karate (Tang Hand), thus Tang Soo Do. If I'm not mistaken, the Korean pronunciation for 'empty hand' is 'Kong Soo'. Kong Soo Do was another pronunciation used by some Korean karate schools many years ago.

In Mandarin it's Kong Shou Dao (karatedo, empty hand way).

Prior to its renaming and for several years, karate was not highly regarded in mainland Japan, where it was regarded as a crude fighting method from 'backwater' Okinawa, or as something 'foreign'.

[bawang]

There is some evidence to show that Uechi ryu has either SPM or southern dragon influence also.



when zhou zihe taught uechi he added a ton of grabbing drills but didnt change the form yet. after uechi went back to okinawa zhou put the new stuff inside the form and called it tiger stance boxing hu zhuang. his son called it tiger shape boxing or hu xing quan. the mother form "36" is very similar.



so it looks like the fujian boxing the karate people learned was a conservative and standardized military style without name that was openly taught to outsiders, and gave birth to many new styles between boxer rebellion and early republican era.

[Jimbo]

Shorin-ryu karate claims that the Tomari-te and Shuri-te systems that it was develop from are a combination of Northern Shaolin and Okinawa Te. It's the only Okinawan karate style I'm aware of that claims a northern kung fu influence. 'Shorin' is the Japanese pronunciation of 'Shaolin'.

[Krottyman]

Shorin-ryu karate claims that the Tomari-te and Shuri-te systems that it was develop from are a combination of Northern Shaolin and Okinawa Te. It's the only Okinawan karate style I'm aware of that claims a northern kung fu influence. 'Shorin' is the Japanese pronunciation of 'Shaolin'.

Funny thing is that was what motivayed me to pick Karate. I did eventually find a Shaolin group but it was of the Wushu variety. Not what I was looking for

[Kellen Bassette]

no they literally learned one gong fu system

Look at classical Okinawan kata. There are common threads between the major schools, especially Sanchin, but there are many kata that aren't shared and certainly seem to have different roots. No way all Karate comes from just one Gong Fu system, they were all developing at the same time, but there are obvious differences between the systems.

[RenDaHai]

I once sat through watching more than 20 Shotokan forms,

There is definitely a huge connection to Song Shan Shaolin. Every move has a direct equivalent and many repeated combinations are almost identical. In fact you could easily translate any of the forms into a Shaolin kung fu version. I am certain there is a close connection and some one actually studied at song shan at some point in its history.

[MightyB]

I once sat through watching more than 20 Shotokan forms,

There is definitely a huge connection to Song Shan Shaolin. Every move has a direct equivalent and many repeated combinations are almost identical. In fact you could easily translate any of the forms into a Shaolin kung fu version. I am certain there is a close connection and some one actually studied at song shan at some point in its history.

You all should take 5 minutes and scan that e-book I direct linked. It covers a lot of what you all are talking about with karate / kung fu connection. Mainly about how originally karate was just a collection of techniques from a bunch of styles from various countries (Siam, China etc.) and how a loose affiliation of local martial artists codified and created the karate as we know it. The book then goes into how it became more organized and who brought in the southern Kung fu influence. shorin ryu doesn't have Sanchin so that probably says something about its origins - in the Shorin Ryu community, it's considered the mother Okinawan style.

[sanjuro_ronin]

when zhou zihe taught uechi he added a ton of grabbing drills but didnt change the form yet. after uechi went back to okinawa zhou put the new stuff inside the form and called it tiger stance boxing hu zhuang. his son called it tiger shape boxing or hu xing quan. the mother form "36" is very similar.



so it looks like the fujian boxing the karate people learned was a conservative and standardized military style without name that was openly taught to outsiders, and gave birth to many new styles between boxer rebellion and early republican era.

Yep, that is my understanding also.

[MightyB]

You all should take 5 minutes and scan that e-book I direct linked. It covers a lot of what you all are talking about with karate / kung fu connection. Mainly about how originally karate was just a collection of techniques from a bunch of styles from various countries (Siam, China etc.) and how a loose affiliation of local martial artists codified and created the karate as we know it. The book then goes into how it became more organized and who brought in the southern Kung fu influence. shorin ryu doesn't have Sanchin so that probably says something about its origins - in the Shorin Ryu community, it's considered the mother Okinawan style.

The story of Okinawan Karate as portrayed in that e-book sounds a lot like the history of the modern style of Kajukenbo. Hawaii and Okinawa have shared traits - geography and the maritime trade, which leads to mixing of customs.

[MightyB]

" much of what we today know as old-school Karate was basically cooked up in, and around, Matsuyama park, as it was a natural meeting place for Chinese experts wishing to practice their native fighting art and enthusiastic Okinawan youngsters wishing to learn stuff?

PM: Indeed I believe these embryonic circumstances cradled the birth of many famous Kata such as Suparinpei, Sanseru, Seisan, Kururunfa, and Seipai, etc.. In spite of Sanchin-like practices, which are commonly found in many southern Quanfa styles, and in spite of locating different Kata 型/形 - Xing that use identical names i.e., Seisan/13, Seipai/18, Sanseru/36 and Suparinpei/108, etc., the said Kata are not practiced or taught in any southern Quanfa style, nor has anyone to date been able to locate such practices!

JE: Ironic, isn’t it?

PM: However, not being able to locate these Kata in China doesn't mean that we cannot find pretty much identical smaller templates #1 in many Southern-based Quanfa styles i.e., Yongchun, Southern Praying Mantis and Monk Fist Boxing, etc.. Indeed, we most certainly can and have."

More detail is in the pdf.
http://cdn.karatebyjesse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/The_Matsuyama_Theory_Free_KbJ_eBook.pdf

[bawang]

shotokan is a mish mash but due to weasel nature of funakoshi its nature is obscured further. naha te came from one guy period.

its understandable due to nationalism at that time, like pigua ppl denying miao dao comes from japanese or shuai jiao ppl pretending its not mongol bokh