Excellent ving tsun under pressure

[guy b.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ythWqde-c

Excellent maintenance of structure, frame, distance and movement in this clip, under unknown pressure in a potentially embarrassing situation. This is about the only clip I can find on the internet of ving tsun working in a way that doesn't look stiff, predetermined, or easily beaten by a freely moving fighter. Good clip, great ving tsun. Anyone seen better?

[CFT]

It doesn't look stiff & predetermined because you are not starting off from chi sau between student and teacher.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not bad, I guess the good ol "1-2" is universal, :D

[Frost]

Already been discussed here 2011 wants its slappy hands thread back lol

[guy b.]

It doesn't look stiff & predetermined because you are not starting off from chi sau between student and teacher.

A recently posted clip is what got me thinking about how many wing chun clips there are that actually look credible on the entire internet. I think this group is about the only one that make it look as if it could really work. The closest thing to it is the Russians that smash each other in the face with head gear. They maybe look effective, if not all that nuanced and skilled. Everything else is clowing around with drills or terrible, weak looking free movement. That is a terrible average for wing chun as a martial art.

I think there is an element of starting in chi sau which makes the clips of many groups look bad. Although you can look at the chi sau that a group does and come to some conclusions about what else they are probably doing. But I think it is much more than that: when they start in free movement many groups look to establish contact or pre-determined drilling type movements. There are very few that can hold and feel comfortable with the basic wing chun structure, stepping and strategy while not looking like a robot. There are very few that can react to changing circumstances. And this goes for many different ving tsun groups too.

[guy b.]

Already been discussed here 2011 wants its slappy hands thread back lol

Find me a better wing chun clip.

[guy b.]

Not bad, I guess the good ol "1-2" is universal, :D

Sure, but there is wing chun there too. It is a good clip. Nothing else comes close.

[Frost]

Find me a better wing chun clip.

Sure go see seans sparring clips on the other thread, they arr actually trying to hit each other in the head, or any of Aron brums fights for that matter ��

[JPinAZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ythWqde-c

Excellent maintenance of structure, frame, distance and movement in this clip, under unknown pressure in a potentially embarrassing situation. This is about the only clip I can find on the internet of ving tsun working in a way that doesn't look stiff, predetermined, or easily beaten by a freely moving fighter. Good clip, great ving tsun. Anyone seen better?

I didn't watch the second half yet, but for the first half, Jerry (the wing chun guy) did have good movement. Unfortunately most of it backwards as he was running away most of the time. While I give him props for doing this and agreeing to be filmed, it was clear he either didn't know how to engage or was afraid too.
So, I wouldn't really agree that this is was any demonstration of 'maintaining' wing chun distance, just maintaining distance. (and maybe points at lack of sparring experience and afraid of being hit. And maybe also not fully understanding what WC bridging is)

** watched the second guy, while very linear (which caused him to get turned several times), he did a much better job of engagement and not giving up space!

[guy b.]

Iit was clear he either didn't know how to engage or was afraid too.

And maybe also not fully understanding what WC bridging is)


1. Chinese etiquette. This is a master of a branch of xing yi. He is not engaging out of politeness.

2. What is wing chun bridging? Show me a better clip.

[guy b.]

Sure go see seans sparring clips on the other thread, they arr actually trying to hit each other in the head, or any of Aron brums fights for that matter ��

Seans clip has problems and is what inspired me to post this clip. In Seans clip the guys want always to return to a familiar place or sequence. They cannot cope with free movement as Jerry does.

Alan Brum's (as you call him) guys are freely moving but not doing wing chun.

Show me a better clip that is identifiably wing chun. Seans is a worse clip with less skill demonstrated.

[guy b.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCC_cw5obR0

This clip is a better demonstration of free moving wing chun than Seans because the guys are genuinely moving freely (in the bits between 'chi sau') and not constrained by trying to get to a place they are comfortable. Even though footwork is poor it is one of the better examples of free moving wing chun on the whole of the internet. Jerry's is better though because he is good and these guys are not.

[Sean66]

Hey guy b,

I honestly don't know what you're referring to, because in my clips I show my students actually sparring (moving freely) against non-wing chun guys.
In this clip, for example, one of my students goes 12 rounds with two (experienced) friends from the local mma gym who are preparing for a competition:
https://www.facebook.com/sean.wood.9843/videos/10205459715308979/

And in the other youtube videos there are also long sequences of free sparring against opponents who are unconcerned with any type of face-saving etiquette (actually trying to knock your block off and/or take you down and submit you).

Now of course there are problems, both strategic and technical, that have to be ironed out in order to improve my student's performance. But at least we are working on it in the "lab" of real, full-contact sparring against un-cooperative opponents.

[Frost]

Seans clip has problems and is what inspired me to post this clip. In Seans clip the guys want always to return to a familiar place or sequence. They cannot cope with free movement as Jerry does.

Alan Brum's (as you call him) guys are freely moving but not doing wing chun.

Show me a better clip that is identifiably wing chun. Seans is a worse clip with less skill demonstrated.

Nope called him aron brum one of alans students :)
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?54031-Chu-Sau-Lei-Wing-Chun-student-Aaron-Baum-winning-10th-Legion-MMA-title

Any of his fights are better than this because his structure is tested against someone trying to hit him hard, As are Seans students, that you think this is a good clip under pressure when no shots are actually being thrown with intent speaks volumes

[Frost]

Hey guy b,

I honestly don't know what you're referring to, because in my clips I show my students actually sparring (moving freely) against non-wing chun guys.
In this clip, for example, one of my students goes 12 rounds with two (experienced) friends from the local mma gym who are preparing for a competition:
https://www.facebook.com/sean.wood.9843/videos/10205459715308979/

And in the other youtube videos there are also long sequences of free sparring against opponents who are unconcerned with any type of face-saving etiquette (actually trying to knock your block off and/or take you down and submit you).

Now of course there are problems, both strategic and technical, that have to be ironed out in order to improve my student's performance. But at least we are working on it in the "lab" of real, full-contact sparring against un-cooperative opponents.

I wouldn’t worry too much Sean, the fact that he equates what is happening in this clip as being anything like what is going on in yours really speaks volumes about what he views as wing chun and actual contact work

[LFJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ythWqde-c

Excellent maintenance of structure, frame, distance and movement in this clip, under unknown pressure in a potentially embarrassing situation. This is about the only clip I can find on the internet of ving tsun working in a way that doesn't look stiff, predetermined, or easily beaten by a freely moving fighter. Good clip, great ving tsun. Anyone seen better?

I didn't see any "ving tsun working" in that video. You've got to be either a student of his or joking. He did absolutely nothing in that entire video except flinch, run away, and throw some one-off and reaching punches that overextended him, or just hugged when it got too close.

And I'll tell you, I've been to his school in HK and I guarantee you neither he nor his classes do any sort of free sparring. All they do is play chi-sau/gwo-sau games. Whatever your opinion of what problems Sean's students need to work on (which is the point of training), Jerry's are doing nothing near the level of what is shown in Sean's clips. I'm surprised at your opinion of this video.

[LFJ]

Any of his fights are better than this because his structure is tested against someone trying to hit him hard, As are Seans students, that you think this is a good clip under pressure when no shots are actually being thrown with intent speaks volumes


I wouldn’t worry too much Sean, the fact that he equates what is happening in this clip as being anything like what is going on in yours really speaks volumes about what he views as wing chun and actual contact work

Volumes. Agreed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pressure testing is crucial to any MA that prides itself on being a "fighting system".
There is simply no way around it.
Now, there are different types of pressure testing of course, ranging from light contact to full contact and same-system testing to cross-system testing.
It have been my experience that the more specialized a system is ( take southern mantis or wing chun for example) the more cross- system testing they require.
Why?
A few reasons but basically because the same-system testing is far to limited in those cases.
Allow me an example:
Boxing is all same-system testing of course, BUT because it is so natural and "easy to learn" because it is natural, the carry-over into real life scenarios and VS other systems works well enough.
The issue is with a specialized system, like WC, the carry over is less because it is NOT as "natural" as boxing.
Anyone that has done both knows exactly what I mean.
So, WC to be effective VS a different system needs to be pressure tested outside itself more.
This does NOT mean one stops doing WC, it means that the skill set developed when one trains WC VS WC needs to be developed differently to be used in WC VS BJJ or WC VS MMA or WC VS Muay Thai for example.

So, those clips of WC VS Xingi and other clips of WC VS other systems will have a very different look then any clip of WC VS WC and that is a GOOD thing.

[wckf92]

I didn't see any "ving tsun working" in that video. You've got to be either a student of his or joking. He did absolutely nothing in that entire video except flinch, run away, and throw some one-off and reaching punches that overextended him, or just hugged when it got too close.

And I'll tell you, I've been to his school in HK and I guarantee you neither he nor his classes do any sort of free sparring. All they do is play chi-sau/gwo-sau games. Whatever your opinion of what problems Sean's students need to work on (which is the point of training), Jerry's are doing nothing near the level of what is shown in Sean's clips. I'm surprised at your opinion of this video.

Isn't the WC guy in the video a PBVT practitioner? Or does he train in a different vein of the WSL camp?

[LFJ]

Isn't the WC guy in the video a PBVT practitioner? Or does he train in a different vein of the WSL camp?

No. Vastly different, I would say.

To my knowledge, he was mainly a student of Cliff, but claims WSL direct because he may have done a little training at the school when he was like 10? I'm not so sure.

[wckf92]

No. Vastly different, I would say.

To my knowledge, he was mainly a student of Cliff, but claims WSL direct because he may have done a little training at the school when he was like 10? I'm not so sure.

Cool...thx

[JPinAZ]

1. Chinese etiquette. This is a master of a branch of xing yi. He is not engaging out of politeness.

2. What is wing chun bridging? Show me a better clip.

1. seems like a cop out. he didn't act the same later in the clip when he crossed hands with a much smaller 'master'. My assumption still stands.

2. It's not for me to teach you these things. If you think that always backing up/running away and refusing to engage is proper WC bridging, anything I show you will not make much difference.

[guy b.]

Nope called him aron brum one of alans students :)
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?54031-Chu-Sau-Lei-Wing-Chun-student-Aaron-Baum-winning-10th-Legion-MMA-title Any of his fights are better than this because his structure is tested against someone trying to hit him hard

That explains my confusion- his name is Aron Baum, not Aron Brum. Nothing in those clips is wing chun. Someone is trying to hit him, it is true. But they tell us nothing about wing chun, other than the fact that Alan Orr's group don't do it.


As are Seans students

Seans students are trying but appear to have real problems with movement outside of drills. This is why they move robotically and predictably.

[guy b.]

1. seems like a cop out. he didn't act the same later in the clip when he crossed hands with a much smaller 'master'. My assumption still stands.

2. It's not for me to teach you these things. If you think that always backing up/running away and refusing to engage is proper WC bridging, anything I show you will not make much difference.

1. The first guy is much more important.

2. You can't say "doesn't understand wing chun bridging" and then shy away from explaining what you mean by that term. It could mean any number of things. For your criticism to be meaningful you need to explain what it is you mean. I have no idea what the term means to you.

[guy b.]

No. Vastly different, I would say.

To my knowledge, he was mainly a student of Cliff, but claims WSL direct because he may have done a little training at the school when he was like 10? I'm not so sure.

I think lineage not that relevant.

Jerry is good. I'm not sure if PB is good. He looks good in clips, but the clips are very limited. His guys often don't look good. That doesn't mean he isn't good of course.

[guy b.]

I didn't see any "ving tsun working" in that video. You've got to be either a student of his or joking. He did absolutely nothing in that entire video except flinch, run away, and throw some one-off and reaching punches that overextended him, or just hugged when it got too close.

And I'll tell you, I've been to his school in HK and I guarantee you neither he nor his classes do any sort of free sparring. All they do is play chi-sau/gwo-sau games. Whatever your opinion of what problems Sean's students need to work on (which is the point of training), Jerry's are doing nothing near the level of what is shown in Sean's clips. I'm surprised at your opinion of this video.

I've been to his school as well. Find me a better clip of wing chun free movement. None exists, as far as I am aware.

[guy b.]

Hey guy b,

I honestly don't know what you're referring to, because in my clips I show my students actually sparring (moving freely) against non-wing chun guys.
In this clip, for example, one of my students goes 12 rounds with two (experienced) friends from the local mma gym who are preparing for a competition:
https://www.facebook.com/sean.wood.9843/videos/10205459715308979/

And in the other youtube videos there are also long sequences of free sparring against opponents who are unconcerned with any type of face-saving etiquette (actually trying to knock your block off and/or take you down and submit you).

Now of course there are problems, both strategic and technical, that have to be ironed out in order to improve my student's performance. But at least we are working on it in the "lab" of real, full-contact sparring against un-cooperative opponents.

Hi Sean,

I have no desire to offend you. Your students certainly are sparring. I just don't think their wing chun is strong enough to survive the process. They do best when they don't stand like wing chun mannequins and when they punch and move naturally. For them wing chun has not been made natural. It looks to be an impediment rather than a benefit in what they are doing.

Guy

[guy b.]

I wouldn’t worry too much Sean, the fact that he equates what is happening in this clip as being anything like what is going on in yours really speaks volumes about what he views as wing chun and actual contact work

I'm not equating it to Seans latest clip which shows some people sparring while failing to make their wing chun work and doing better when they abandon it.

I'm saying that it is the best clip of free moving wing chun, with wing chun structure and tactics not falling to bits, available on the internet.

If you disagree then show me a better one.

[JPinAZ]

1. The first guy is much more important.

2. You can't say "doesn't understand wing chun bridging" and then shy away from explaining what you mean by that term. It could mean any number of things. For your criticism to be meaningful you need to explain what it is you mean. I have no idea what the term means to you.

1. Nonsense, he didn't run because he was 'so important'. If that was the case, he simply would not have accepted the offer to touch hands in the first place. Since you obviously are going to defend this no matter what anyone says, I see no point in going further on this.

2. How many times must I repeat myself? You're just arguing to argue now because you can't be that dense. For the last time, he was constantly backing up, running away and not engaging into proper WC striking range. That means he doesn't understand WC bridging and engagement. So the opposite of that must be what I'm talking about. It's really simple.

I'm far from shy discussing WC concept/principle, but it's clearly you're going to defend him no matter what, and you're most likely just going to argue with whatever I present anyway. So I'll give you few WC concepts that might help you with understanding what I feel is necessary for proper WC engagement and bridging, and you can decide for yourself if he was doing these things or not.
- First simple concept is occupying space with fwd energy & good structure on centerline - without giving up space (in my lineage we call this maximizing your credit on the centerline).
- Another is you don't move, I don't move - You move, I get there first.
- And a final big one is - loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung.

[anerlich]

1. Chinese etiquette. This is a master of a branch of xing yi. He is not engaging out of politeness.

That's what I think is the central issue with this clip. There seems to be a pronounced disparity in the attitude of the participants. Wing Chun guy is tentative and defensive. Xingyi guy appears way overconfident, like he knows he has no chance of the WC guy really trying to hit (rather than tag) him. He overreaches, rushes in wildly, hold his hands low, sticks his chin out, leans forward. Got tagged a fair bit even though WC guy was trying really hard not to hit him with any power. No attempts by either to circle, sidestep or move offline. Back and forth (in WC guy's case, mostly back).

This looks more like an exhibition to make the Xingyi guy look dominant, with both participants playing their allotted roles. The WC guy might well be good but doesn't get a chance to show it here. He has much better structure than the Xingyi guy but only because the Xingyi guy basically shows next to none.

[Admission: I didn't watch the whole clip. I think I watched enough.]

I did Xingyi and Bagua for about 5 years back in the '80s. If that guy is a Xingyi master, my faith in my decisions to move on to WC and Jiu Jitsu are reinforced massively.

If Alan Orr's guys don't do Wing Chun, I think I'd rather do what they're doing rather than the Wing Chun shown in the clip.

[Frost]

I'm not equating it to Seans latest clip which shows some people sparring while failing to make their wing chun work and doing better when they abandon it.

I'm saying that it is the best clip of free moving wing chun, with wing chun structure and tactics not falling to bits, available on the internet.

If you disagree then show me a better one.

They aren't falling to pieces because they aren't under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn't fall apart because its not actually pressured.

Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn't being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt

[YouKnowWho]

They aren't falling to pieces because they aren't under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn't fall apart because its not actually pressured.

Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn't being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt

Agree! Neither opponent tried to knock the other opponent down/out. The "intention" was missing.

In the following clip, the "knock down intention" can be seen. If you have experienced the true "full contact", it's very difficult to feel pressure in "non-full contact".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf044Rg3Fzc&feature=youtu.be

[LFJ]

I think lineage not that relevant.

He wouldn't have been on Fight Quest otherwise. Would have no students without having done Fight Quest. And no one would likely know of him if he and his friends didn't try to position themselves as gatekeepers of "WSLVT"... Pretty relevant, I'd say.


Jerry is good.

At what? And how do you know?

Good is also relative. If you suck, and he beats you. You'll think he's good. In that case, good could just mean he doesn't suck as much as you.

I took a friend around to find schools in HK a couple years ago. He had 4 years total MA experience under a teacher who only taught him chi-sau and hard sparring, and he was able to easily dispatch Jerry in chi-sau, hitting him with the same thing 4 times in a row.

Does it mean anything to get hit in chi-sau? Sure, maybe not, but 4 times in a row with the same thing means he was unable to learn and adapt. He couldn't cope with a guy with 4 years experience who hadn't even learned the forms, didn't even know they existed...

This was also after he reluctantly agreed to roll a few times after refusing to allow him to do any sparring or even chi-sau with his students on "sparring night" because they "might freak out if they did something they weren't familiar with" (a red flag that they don't actually do any serious training).

And it was also after he and his buddy Mark identified his rolling style as Yip Chun lineage (he wasn't even sure of his lineage) and shared little condescending smirks with one another, then preceded to get hit 4 times in a row, with the same thing...

So I'd say his chi-sau is not very good from what I saw firsthand, and this video shows he doesn't know how to spar either. Not surprising, considering "sparring night" to them means "open chi-sau".


I've been to his school as well.

Then you'd know even on their "sparring night", all they do is play chi-sau games. There is no free contact sparring whatsoever, much less against non-VT. There is not even one piece of sparring gear in their school.

So again, you cannot even begin to relate what he is doing with what Alan's or Sean's students are doing (hard sparring and MMA fights), regardless of your opinion of them. I would say he's not even doing or teaching fight training.


Find me a better clip of wing chun free movement. None exists, as far as I am aware.

In your opinion. Not my problem.

[guy b.]

They aren't falling to pieces because they aren't under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn't fall apart because its not actually pressured.

Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn't being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt

Gloves don't create pressure, they relieve it. Head shots are present. Hard body shots are present from the xing yi, but are avoided due to movement and structure.

Light sparring done well is much more revealing of skill than the extremely slow gloved contact sparring that you appear to advocate. There is no skill development, no structural development, no movement development and very little skill in the clips you expect me to be awed by.

[guy b.]

Agree! Neither opponent tried to knock the other opponent down/out. The "intention" was missing.

In the following clip, the "knock down intention" can be seen. If you have experienced the true "full contact", it's very difficult to feel pressure in "non-full contact".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf044Rg3Fzc&feature=youtu.be

Terrible clip, no structure, no movement, no speed, no skill. Merely two untrained guys hitting each other as hard as they can. Pointless.

[guy b.]

He wouldn't have been on Fight Quest otherwise. Would have no students without having done Fight Quest. And no one would likely know of him if he and his friends didn't try to position themselves as gatekeepers of "WSLVT"... Pretty relevant, I'd say.

What is relevant is being good. Lineage not relevant. Having lineage and not being good is just embarrassing. Jerry is good.



At what? And how do you know?

Good is also relative. If you suck, and he beats you. You'll think he's good. In that case, good could just mean he doesn't suck as much as you.

I took a friend around to find schools in HK a couple years ago. He had 4 years total MA experience under a teacher who only taught him chi-sau and hard sparring, and he was able to easily dispatch Jerry in chi-sau, hitting him with the same thing 4 times in a row.

Does it mean anything to get hit in chi-sau? Sure, maybe not, but 4 times in a row with the same thing means he was unable to learn and adapt. He couldn't cope with a guy with 4 years experience who hadn't even learned the forms, didn't even know they existed...

This was also after he reluctantly agreed to roll a few times after refusing to allow him to do any sparring or even chi-sau with his students on "sparring night" because they "might freak out if they did something they weren't familiar with" (a red flag that they don't actually do any serious training).

And it was also after he and his buddy Mark identified his rolling style as Yip Chun lineage (he wasn't even sure of his lineage) and shared little condescending smirks with one another, then preceded to get hit 4 times in a row, with the same thing...

So I'd say his chi-sau is not very good from what I saw firsthand, and this video shows he doesn't know how to spar either. Not surprising, considering "sparring night" to them means "open chi-sau".

Mark is not good, Jerry is good. Maybe he was trying to teach you something? I would say yes probably. Looks like you didn't learn whatever it was. He has definitely sparred hard, but skill development in that direction is limited once you know what it is.



Then you'd know even on their "sparring night", all they do is play chi-sau games. There is no free contact sparring whatsoever, much less against non-VT. There is not even one piece of sparring gear in their school.

How did WSL train again?


So again, you cannot even begin to relate what he is doing with what Alan's or Sean's students are doing (hard sparring and MMA fights), regardless of your opinion of them. I would say he's not even doing or teaching fight training.

His skill level is far above Sean's students given that their structure is in pieces in the clips posted, they are incredibly slow, and they show no wing chun movement whatsoever. I think in their case hard sparring has come too soon and is merely teaching them to abandon wing chun. In Alan's case he is not a wing chun practitioner so not comparable. He isn't very good though, I have been to his school.



In your opinion

It is all we have at the end of the day

[Frost]

Gloves don't create pressure, they relieve it. Head shots are present. Hard body shots are present from the xing yi, but are avoided due to movement and structure.

Light sparring done well is much more revealing of skill than the extremely slow gloved contact sparring that you appear to advocate. There is no skill development, no structural development, no movement development and very little skill in the clips you expect me to be awed by.

I dont expect you to be awed, I'm quite aware how misguided your views are but I'm simply pointing out you camt compare a bare hand slap fest to actual contact work
As for;
A there being hard body shots in that clip
B any head shots or
C gloves relieving pressure you are seriously deluded and there's no point speaking to you lol

[Sean66]

His skill level is far above Sean's students given that their structure is in pieces in the clips posted, they are incredibly slow, and they show no wing chun movement whatsoever. I think in their case hard sparring has come too soon and is merely teaching them to abandon wing chun.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

Sparring in my school is trained progressively and never "too soon".

Sparring (in all its forms, not just "hard" sparring) against people of other styles only helps us to discover weaknesses and to correct/finely tune - not abandon wing chun.

If you don't see the wing chun movement, techniques and strategies being used (sometimes with success, sometimes not) in my clips, then, sadly, I don't think I can help you.

It's ok, though. To each his own.

I, for one, don't want my students to be slap happy kung fu fantasy warriors who talk sans cesse about structure, simplicity, efficacity, directness, etc, etc, without ever putting anything to the test.

[YouKnowWho]

Terrible clip, no structure, no movement, no speed, no skill. Merely two untrained guys hitting each other as hard as they can. Pointless.

Just test your skill in Sanda/Sanshou tournament once and you will never say that again.

[Frost]

Just test your skill in Sanda/Sanshou tournament once and you will never say that again.

I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand

[YouKnowWho]

I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand
I thought so too after UFC 3 back in September 9, 1994, that was almost 21 years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suoJyJu3j2s&feature=youtu.be

[LFJ]

What is relevant is being good. Lineage not relevant. Having lineage and not being good is just embarrassing. Jerry is good.

Well, I am not alone, in fact I'm in the majority in thinking he and his friends are not good enough to position themselves as gatekeepers of WSLVT and try to standardize and regulate its instruction. That is embarrassing.


Maybe he was trying to teach you something? I would say yes probably. Looks like you didn't learn whatever it was.

:D He got hit 4 times in a row with the same thing by a guy with 4 years experience in an "inferior" lineage who hadn't even learned the system properly.

All he taught that guy was that he's unable to learn and adapt. How could he have anything to teach him? The guy left the school thinking they were jokes, and never returned, and I was embarrassed for having taken him.


How did WSL train again?

By all accounts, WSL went out testing his skills in fights. Serious students at his school did the same.

If you are neither fighting nor doing hard sparring, you can't say you are doing fight training. You have no reference for the training you do.

Sean's guys go through various levels of sparring. They exhibit errors under pressure, but that is a good thing. That is actually the point; to draw out these errors only revealed under pressure! That's what they take back into their drilling to correct.

If you are not doing any sort of sparring, playing chi-sau is just for fun, or worse, giving you a false impression that you're learning how to fight. Which I think we all (except for you) clearly see in Jerry's clip.


In Alan's case he is not a wing chun practitioner so not comparable. He isn't very good though, I have been to his school.

Alan's fight team has proven their effectiveness by knocking people out in professional fights using Wing Chun you're apparently too inexperienced to see! Their opponent's aren't making the complaints "that's not Wing Chun" or "your teacher isn't very good". Instead, they're probably complaining that they hit to hard!

Your idea of what Wing Chun is is pure fantasy if this clip of Jerry gets you all excited.

You were impressed by him "maintaining structure". I guess by that you mean the way he was standing and holding his hands up? He was never in range or in danger to have it tested. He just stood outside and swatted at the Xing Yi guy's hands, then ran away when he got too close. And you call this "excellent ving tsun under pressure". lol

[WcForMe]

Ever heard say boxers argue over what sparring is or should look like? I haven't.

If you have ever been in a pressured confrontation you know that fighting is messy, dirty and looks nothing like you see in films. Simple as that. I've stepped in the ring and kudos to anybody that does. But people bickering about what wing chun free fighting should look like, with what it seems to me is little to no experience is one of the reasons wing chun among most people outside of wing chun thinks it a joke.

I personally believe put a boxer with six months training against a wing chun guy regardless of lineage, the wing chun guy will lose. Boxers spar and pressure test very early on. From my humble findings wing chun does not.

Also personally I find wing chun in general doesn't appeal to what I would call fighters. Don't get me wrong there are a few. The majority are not. When I say fighters I mean Mentally. This in my own opinion, you might say or find different.

However as per the op original video. If Jerry? Is showing the best wing chun has to offer we are All in major problems but you think?

atekeepers of wsl legacy I whole heartedly hope not. Wing chun and constant retreating is not the way I have been taught. Side back steps if needed, creating angles, closing space, structure, relaxation, breathing, and good quick footwork is. That said when u have some giant guy ripped, the size of a small barn coming at you, things change.

I read this forum a lot barely participate due to there are way more qualified people on here than me to answer questions and put in there 2$. But this post annoyed me.

[GlennR]

Ever heard say boxers argue over what sparring is or should look like? I haven't.

If you have ever been in a pressured confrontation you know that fighting is messy, dirty and looks nothing like you see in films. Simple as that. I've stepped in the ring and kudos to anybody that does. But people bickering about what wing chun free fighting should look like, with what it seems to me is little to no experience is one of the reasons wing chun among most people outside of wing chun thinks it a joke.

I personally believe put a boxer with six months training against a wing chun guy regardless of lineage, the wing chun guy will lose. Boxers spar and pressure test very early on. From my humble findings wing chun does not.

Also personally I find wing chun in general doesn't appeal to what I would call fighters. Don't get me wrong there are a few. The majority are not. When I say fighters I mean Mentally. This in my own opinion, you might say or find different.

However as per the op original video. If Jerry? Is showing the best wing chun has to offer we are All in major problems but you think?

atekeepers of wsl legacy I whole heartedly hope not. Wing chun and constant retreating is not the way I have been taught. Side back steps if needed, creating angles, closing space, structure, relaxation, breathing, and good quick footwork is. That said when u have some giant guy ripped, the size of a small barn coming at you, things change.

I read this forum a lot barely participate due to there are way more qualified people on here than me to answer questions and put in there 2$. But this post annoyed me.

Nice post and spot on in all your points

[guy b.]

By all accounts, WSL went out testing his skills in fights. Serious students at his school did the same.

I think you will find that many of the fights WSL participated in were something like what you see in the Jerry vs xing yi clip. This is the Chinese style skill test with body shots and open hands designed to save face. Others were very low skilled confrontations. Still others were actual fights. None looked like a relaxed gloved sparring session in a comfortable gym. WSL was not gloving up and doing MMA for good reason- as the clips which have been posted show, gloved wing chun doesn't work and actually degrades wing chun skill. Empty handed testing is essential.


If you are neither fighting nor doing hard sparring, you can't say you are doing fight training. You have no reference for the training you do.

Sparring as shown is absolutely the worst thing you can do for your wing chun. Sparring empty hand is beneficial. Fighting is a test.


Sean's guys go through various levels of sparring. They exhibit errors under pressure, but that is a good thing. That is actually the point; to draw out these errors only revealed under pressure! That's what they take back into their drilling to correct.

They are learning not to do wing chun. It is akin to sprint training wearing ankle weights- very counter productive and degrading of actual skill.


If you are not doing any sort of sparring, playing chi-sau is just for fun, or worse, giving you a false impression that you're learning how to fight. Which I think we all (except for you) clearly see in Jerry's clip.

I train empty handed, never gloves.


Alan's fight team has proven their effectiveness by knocking people out in professional fights using Wing Chun you're apparently too inexperienced to see! Their opponent's aren't making the complaints "that's not Wing Chun" or "your teacher isn't very good". Instead, they're probably complaining that they hit to hard!

That's fine, but what they do doesn't contain wing chun strategy, structure or movement, and so is not wing chun.


Your idea of what Wing Chun is is pure fantasy if this clip of Jerry gets you all excited.

No better clip has been posted. Seans clip is a gloved sparring clip. It contains no realistic fighting movements because there is no danger and no pressure involved. Movement is incredibly slow. Stepping is non existent. Structure is missing. The only vestige of wing chun is the wing chun shape punch which fires off occasionally like a dead, drilled maneuver. It is quite a bad clip.

People who never train bare handed always think this sort of stuff is the real thing. They couldn't be further from the truth. Fights are fast. Nobody moves as they do in a gloved gym sparring session.

[guy b.]

I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand

Do you train much bare fisted wing chun?

[guy b.]

They aren't falling to pieces because they aren't under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn't fall apart because its not actually pressured.

Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn't being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt

Realistic speed is pressure, precise movement is pressure, good structure creates pressure, spectators are pressure, repuation is pressure.

This is a controlled test according to much used conventions. It contains plenty of pressure, much more in this case than a relaxed gloved sparring session in a gym with friends.

Hard contact without gloves increases the pressure, but pressure is a continuum and there is plenty here.

[guy b.]

I dont expect you to be awed, I'm quite aware how misguided your views are but I'm simply pointing out you camt compare a bare hand slap fest to actual contact work
As for;
A there being hard body shots in that clip
B any head shots or
C gloves relieving pressure you are seriously deluded and there's no point speaking to you lol

I'm just surprised you can't differentiate between skill and non-skill. Skill can be present no matter the level of contact.

In this clip hard body shots are agreed and head shots with open hands are agreed. Standard rules for this sort of thing.

Gloves relieve pressure because they save you from hurting your hands and they make targetting much less important. Unfortunately they also ruin timing, power generation, and target aquisition. This is why intelligent fighters train often without gloves. Do you train much without them?

[guy b.]

This couldn't be further from the truth.

Sparring in my school is trained progressively and never "too soon".

Sparring (in all its forms, not just "hard" sparring) against people of other styles only helps us to discover weaknesses and to correct/finely tune - not abandon wing chun.

If you don't see the wing chun movement, techniques and strategies being used (sometimes with success, sometimes not) in my clips, then, sadly, I don't think I can help you.

It's ok, though. To each his own.

I, for one, don't want my students to be slap happy kung fu fantasy warriors who talk sans cesse about structure, simplicity, efficacity, directness, etc, etc, without ever putting anything to the test.

I recommend some bare handed sparring.

[guy b.]

Just test your skill in Sanda/Sanshou tournament once and you will never say that again.

Is Muay thai good enough? Kyokushin? Kudo? Judo?

I'm sorry but the skill level in that clip was attrocious.

[guy b.]

I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand

It must be sad when you can't control the internet.

Go and try some bare fisted "sparring" and report back. Even better film it.

[guy b.]

Ever heard say boxers argue over what sparring is or should look like? I haven't.

1. Boxing isn't fighting
2. Boxing isn't a principle based martial art
3. comparison not really relevant


If you have ever been in a pressured confrontation you know that fighting is messy, dirty and looks nothing like you see in films. Simple as that. I've stepped in the ring and kudos to anybody that does. But people bickering about what wing chun free fighting should look like, with what it seems to me is little to no experience is one of the reasons wing chun among most people outside of wing chun thinks it a joke.

There is no wing chun fighting on the internet. There is Alan Orr, who is not doing wing chun but is competing in sports competitions. And there is this French group who appear to be losing their wing chun also. The common thread is sparring methodology vs drilling/fighting methodology, gloves, lack of realistic pressure testing. I think it is legitimate to comment.


I personally believe put a boxer with six months training against a wing chun guy regardless of lineage, the wing chun guy will lose. Boxers spar and pressure test very early on. From my humble findings wing chun does not.

"a boxer"

Sure, every boxer in the world will beat every wing chun guy in the world. Lol


If Jerry? Is showing the best wing chun has to offer we are All in major problems but you think?

Show me a better wing chun clip. I will be happy, believe me. At the moment I am only depressed that no better clip exists.

[LFJ]

Pretty obvious why people are ignoring you now. :eek:

You go on with your "realistic" no-contact pressure testing then.
Leave the actual hitting and being hit to the real martial artists.

If you're the only one doing "Wing Chun", then so be it.

[anerlich]

n this clip hard body shots are agreed and head shots with open hands are agreed. Standard rules for this sort of thing.

I didn't see any hard body shots in that clip.


Gloves relieve pressure because they save you from hurting your hands and they make targetting much less important. Unfortunately they also ruin timing, power generation, and target aquisition. This is why intelligent fighters train often without gloves. Do you train much without them?

I think most schools train the "free form chi sao" sort of sparring/fighting/whatever you want to call it, like that shown in a large number of Phillipp Bayer clips, with bare hands, but wear light gloves, cups, mouthpieces, and shin pads when sparring from outside contact, including kicks, clinching, takedowns, etc. With perhaps occasional forays into heavier gloves, headgear, etc.

There are too many possibilities for accidental injury if you are working through multiple ranges without some form of protective gear. Injuries can be permanent, even career-ending, and treatment, especially dental, very expensive. As a school owner you may run the risk of lawsuits if you are seen to have too cavalier an attitude to student safety. Keeping a level of control that keeps everyone safe while still allowing realism in training is not easy, and every now and then my instructor has to rein people in when they start going too hard.

At one of my post instructor level WC gradings I did "freeform chi sao" with my instructor barehanded for about 20 minutes, weapons sparring with heavy padding, stickfighting jackets and helmets and cricket gloves, and ten continuous rounds of sparring (hard hits to the body, tags to the head per your "standard" conventions) with multiple fresh instructor level students, wearing light MMA gloves, cup, shin pads and mouthpiece.

I finished unable to stand for a few minutes, multiple contusions including a handprint on my ribs that left a bruise so perfectly shaped that three fingers and part of a fourth could be clearly made out, and two black eyes. Nearly all of which came from the "free form chi sao". It was meant to be hard and punishing and it was.

I think "intelligent fighters" use protective gear as appropriate, and there is absolutely a place for it. I've had enough experience with both bare hands and light gloves to be able to function well enough with either.

Over the last five or so years I've had about $65000 of dental work, some of which is martial arts related, including two implants. I don't spar any more due to the potential financial implications. I can still kick and move pretty well for a guy my age, but my goals these days are about remaining strong, supple and mobile, not being able to despatch mortal enemies or be a bada$$ streetfighter, whatever that means.

Jiu Jitsu, I roll pretty hard for a 60 year old four times a week with just a mouthpiece against all comers including nationally ranked brown belts in their twenties and a masters' black belt world champion. I'm not sure many on this forum (if there are in fact many on this forum any more) will still be training so often and so pain free at my age if they are not sensible with their training methods and expectations.

I'm not trying to big note myself here. I would expect most decent WC practitioners who have trained for more than 20 years to have similar stories. I would expect to be the norm rather than the exception.

[LFJ]

I think most schools train the "free form chi sao" sort of sparring/fighting/whatever you want to call it, like that shown in a large number of Phillipp Bayer clips, with bare hands, but wear light gloves, cups, mouthpieces, and shin pads when sparring from outside contact, including kicks, clinching, takedowns, etc. With perhaps occasional forays into heavier gloves, headgear, etc.

Exactly. I don't believe anyone who only does bare handed training is actually getting hit hard in the face, despite their macho "we never wear gloves" attitude. That's the kind of thing that causes real stress, and it's important to train at that level for stress inoculation. Otherwise you never reach your breaking point and draw out your errors for correction. Then you can only progress so much.

If all one is doing is bare handed training, it's unlikely they are being rocked by hard punches and forced to maintain structure and fight strategy against that level of pressure. It's much easier to maintain composure and think you are doing well when you aren't worried about getting blasted in the face. And you can only train at that level safely when you use at least light gloves and head gear.

[sanjuro_ronin]

1. Boxing isn't fighting

Enough said, ever.

[Frost]

Enough said, ever.

i think he is trolling, i think he is that upset no one ever posts here these days he is trying to drum up support, no one can really believe the things he is coming out with :confused::eek:

[guy b.]

Exactly. I don't believe anyone who only does bare handed training is actually getting hit hard in the face, despite their macho "we never wear gloves" attitude. That's the kind of thing that causes real stress, and it's important to train at that level for stress inoculation. Otherwise you never reach your breaking point and draw out your errors for correction. Then you can only progress so much.

If all one is doing is bare handed training, it's unlikely they are being rocked by hard punches and forced to maintain structure and fight strategy against that level of pressure. It's much easier to maintain composure and think you are doing well when you aren't worried about getting blasted in the face. And you can only train at that level safely when you use at least light gloves and head gear.

Why do you think hard punches are not involved in bare handed training? It is actually essential to train this way, otherwise you are kidding yourself. You build to it, do it, then back off for a while. It isn't something you can do every week, but you need to do it or you are training yourself to ring fight with gloves on, i.e. a game, not a fight.

There is stress in full contact bare fist, believe me. There is nothing of that stress in gloved sparring.

FGloves also throw off timing, stucture, distancing, defence and targetting. Not things you want to do really.

[LFJ]

Why do you think hard punches are not involved in bare handed training? It is actually essential to train this way, otherwise you are kidding yourself.

Let's see your bare handed training then. I'm interested in how hard you're getting punched in the face with bare knuckles...

[guy b.]

I didn't see any hard body shots in that clip.

There are hard body shots in the programme. Jerry avoided any hard body shots in that particular encounter, mostly due to good movement and structure.


I think most schools train the "free form chi sao" sort of sparring/fighting/whatever you want to call it, like that shown in a large number of Phillipp Bayer clips

Philip Bayer clips show chi sau mostly, occasionally almost gor sau. If you have one that shows traditional chinese bare handed testing then please do post it, I would like to see.


There are too many possibilities for accidental injury if you are working through multiple ranges without some form of protective gear. Injuries can be permanent, even career-ending, and treatment, especially dental, very expensive. As a school owner you may run the risk of lawsuits if you are seen to have too cavalier an attitude to student safety. Keeping a level of control that keeps everyone safe while still allowing realism in training is not easy, and every now and then my instructor has to rein people in when they start going too hard.

Nope, you are not training what you want to train when you train with protective equipment. The way to do it is to build intensity and train full contact at the right time, then maintain it as often as possible. Many people go too early. Many others go with protective gear which removes wing chun skill from the equation and makes wing chun a handicap rather than an asset.


At one of my post instructor level WC gradings I did "freeform chi sao" with my instructor barehanded for about 20 minutes, weapons sparring with heavy padding, stickfighting jackets and helmets and cricket gloves, and ten continuous rounds of sparring (hard hits to the body, tags to the head per your "standard" conventions) with multiple fresh instructor level students, wearing light MMA gloves, cup, shin pads and mouthpiece.

Shame about the gloves which will have thrown off your timing and distancing. Apart from that sounds like good training.


I finished unable to stand for a few minutes, multiple contusions including a handprint on my ribs that left a bruise so perfectly shaped that three fingers and part of a fourth could be clearly made out, and two black eyes. Nearly all of which came from the "free form chi sao". It was meant to be hard and punishing and it was.

And?


I think "intelligent fighters" use protective gear as appropriate, and there is absolutely a place for it. I've had enough experience with both bare hands and light gloves to be able to function well enough with either.

Protective gear is training something completely different, so not that intelligent if you want to train wing chun. Better to chi sau, gor sau, body spar, body palm head spar, and full contact as much as you can manage.


Over the last five or so years I've had about $65000 of dental work, some of which is martial arts related, including two implants. I don't spar any more due to the potential financial implications. I can still kick and move pretty well for a guy my age, but my goals these days are about remaining strong, supple and mobile, not being able to despatch mortal enemies or be a bada$$ streetfighter, whatever that means.

Good for you


Jiu Jitsu, I roll pretty hard for a 60 year old four times a week with just a mouthpiece against all comers including nationally ranked brown belts in their twenties and a masters' black belt world champion. I'm not sure many on this forum (if there are in fact many on this forum any more) will still be training so often and so pain free at my age if they are not sensible with their training methods and expectations.

I have done plenty of sports sparring too. This is what informs my opinions. Grappling methods have the advantage over striking in that they can be performed fully without either technique modifying protective gear or severe restraint. In striking arts restraint and building slowly to full contact at the right time is better than technique modifying protective gear. Wing chun, for example, is not possible in gloves. Neither is SPM, Pak Mei, Lung Ying, etc. All of these train differently, for a different purpose. Sparring with gloves and other protective gear makes for a person that misses in a fight, is slow, has no nuanced technique, breaks their hands, and is easiuly beaten.

If you want to train gloved then the best method you can use is muay thai (second kyokushin), because the techniques of those arts are derived from empty hand techniques and preserve the hands. While you will still have distancing, timing and movement problems in a real fight, at least you will be able to preserve your ability to fight back. Gloved boxing techniques in a real fight are ridiculous.

[guy b.]

Let's see your bare handed training then. I'm interested in how hard you're getting punched in the face with bare knuckles...

Full contact

[guy b.]

Enough said, ever.

Thanks, glad to have your support

[guy b.]

i think he is trolling

Do you train much bare handed?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If people are hitting bare knuckles on the face and there is not TONS of blood and cuts then either it isn't full contact or it is the typical "slippy limp writs wing chun" we are used to seeing.
Bunch of pansies.

[guy b.]

If people are hitting bare knuckles on the face and there is not TONS of blood and cuts then either it isn't full contact or it is the typical "slippy limp writs wing chun" we are used to seeing.
Bunch of pansies.


There is a lot of blood and cuts. Interestingly the knuckles usually cut more than the faces. Certainly break more.

[Frost]

Do you train much bare handed?
You mean apart from the 12 years I did in my first Chinese style which included barehand so called traditional comps which were great for my teeth lol or the bakmei I continue tondo, no cause not :rolleyes:
The problem is anyone with half a brain whom has trained both ways knows exactly which way produces a more rounded fighter used to actually being hit and hitting hard

Your problem is you can't handle the fact that anyone with actual experience in fighting on this thread is disagreeing 100% with everything you say so instead of learning from them you are bringing out every cliche in the book, gloves aren't used by real fighters, barehand is the only way, using face to explain terrible tactical moves, you can judge someones skill by watching a slapfest etc etc it would be funny if this was the 90s lol, well actually it is very entertaining:D

[Jimbo]

Gloves don't create pressure, they relieve it.

Not really.

I have done both gloved (from very light gloves up to boxing gloves), as well as ungloved sparring. Gloves sparring is far more practical and effective in developing full-contact and even medium-contact fighting skill. And while I do feel there is value in ungloved sparring, to go harder it's essential (IME) to wear gloves and other protection. I really don't have to go into the whys; others have already mentioned them.

Besides the obvious risks in going full-contact/bare knuckle in regular sparring, I don't think anyone has mentioned yet that it would be very easy to pick up a serious infection if you cut your hand on someone's tooth/teeth.

I remember one guy telling me he trained in Systema or something, and that they only trained "balls-to-the-wall full-contact/anything goes sparring". Including bare-knuckle to the head/face; full kicks to anywhere, including knees and groin; and eye attacks(!). Of course he was lying. He never had a mark on him, nor any injuries, bruises, nor even a styled hair out of place on his head.

[guy b.]

You mean apart from the 12 years I did in my first Chinese style which included barehand so called traditional comps which were great for my teeth lol or the bakmei I continue tondo, no cause not :rolleyes:
The problem is anyone with half a brain whom has trained both ways knows exactly which way produces a more rounded fighter used to actually being hit and hitting hard

Your problem is you can't handle the fact that anyone with actual experience in fighting on this thread is disagreeing 100% with everything you say so instead of learning from them you are bringing out every cliche in the book, gloves aren't used by real fighters, barehand is the only way, using face to explain terrible tactical moves, you can judge someones skill by watching a slapfest etc etc it would be funny if this was the 90s lol, well actually it is very entertaining:D

Maybe when you produce a clip I will take you seriously.

Until then I imagine you are a little fat guy who trains occasionally all padded up.

I have actual experience in fighting (I think more than anyone else here in striking comps) and I know that gloves are an impediment to training for actual fighting. I came from gloves to this, not the other way around. Therfore i do not perceive soft sparring sessions in the gym with gloves to be the saviour of my ma integrity. I am already happy with that.

Post a credible clip and we can talk. Until then you are nothing and you stink of fear. I would smash you up standing I think. And I would break you to bits on the ground.

[guy b.]

Not really.

I have done both gloved (from very light gloves up to boxing gloves), as well as ungloved sparring. Gloves sparring is far more practical and effective in developing full-contact and even medium-contact fighting skill. And while I do feel there is value in ungloved sparring, to go harder it's essential (IME) to wear gloves and other protection. I really don't have to go into the whys; others have already mentioned them.

Besides the obvious risks in going full-contact/bare knuckle in regular sparring, I don't think anyone has mentioned yet that it would be very easy to pick up a serious infection if you cut your hand on someone's tooth/teeth.

I remember one guy telling me he trained in Systema or something, and that they only trained "balls-to-the-wall full-contact/anything goes sparring". Including bare-knuckle to the head/face; full kicks to anywhere, including knees and groin; and eye attacks(!). Of course he was lying. He never had a mark on him, nor any injuries, bruises, nor even a styled hair out of place on his head.

Come to me, I will show you full contact

[Frost]

Maybe when you produce a clip I will take you seriously.

Until then I imagine you are a little fat guy who trains occasionally all padded up.

I have actual experience in fighting (I think more than anyone else here in striking comps) and I know that gloves are an impediment to training for actual fighting. I came from gloves to this, not the other way around. Therfore i do not perceive soft sparring sessions in the gym with gloves to be the saviour of my ma integrity. I am already happy with that.

Post a credible clip and we can talk. Until then you are nothing and you stink of fear. I would smash you up standing I think. And I would break you to bits on the ground.

Lmao lets see who has posted clips here of both grappling comps and mma sparring, umm not you that's for sure �� lets also see who has happily listed the fighters he has trained with and sparred, again not you ��

As for more experience lmao again I can think of at least one person on this very thread whose experience in fighting both real and full contact dwarfs anything you can come up with sitting there in your mums basement ��

Here's a little bit of advice its hard to be scared of someone when they think this clip is good hard training so save your threats for someone else lol maybe another poor deluded fool like yourself

[guy b.]

Lmao lets see who has posted clips here of both grappling comps and mma sparring, umm not you that's for sure �� lets also see who has happily listed the fighters he has trained with and sparred, again not you ��

As for more experience lmao again I can think of at least one person on this very thread whose experience in fighting both real and full contact dwarfs anything you can come up with sitting there in your mums basement ��

Here's a little bit of advice its hard to be scared of someone when they think this clip is good hard training so save your threats for someone else lol maybe another poor deluded fool like yourself

I've seen you post your friends grappling clips and ultra soft sparring. This is nothing to be proud of for those participating. Needless to say trying to gain favour by association with such weak stuff looks more than pathetic.

You are a fan of mma. Good for you. I am not sure why you think this qualifies you to comment on anything.

You are a soft pastry of a person. You know it and I know it.

[Jimbo]

Come to me, I will show you full contact

Interesting that you throw out challenges and insults when others disagree with you. That says a lot about a person.

[anerlich]

There are hard body shots in the programme. Jerry avoided any hard body shots in that particular encounter, mostly due to good movement and structure.


I didn't see any hard body shots thrown or taken by either participant.


And?

"And" is a conjunction.


Protective gear is training something completely different, so not that intelligent if you want to train wing chun.

I don't want to train what you think Wing Chun should be, by the sound of it. Opinions about what wing chun is seem to vary. Good luck with your upcoming dental bills.


You are a soft pastry of a person.

Wow, you really know how to throw out them insults. :p


Maybe when you produce a clip I will take you seriously.

Perhaps the same applies to you.


Come to me, I will show you full contact

I've seen and felt it. You sound like you'd be a PITA in the flesh, anyway, so I'll pass.

[guy b.]

Interesting that you throw out challenges and insults when others disagree with you. That says a lot about a person.

I'm not insulting you or challenging you. Interesting that you see it this way. I am inviting you.

[guy b.]

I didn't see any hard body shots thrown or taken by either participant.

The attacker in this case is not equal to the job. The rules are body shots and head palms.


"And" is a conjunction.

And?


I don't want to train what you think Wing Chun should be, by the sound of it. Opinions about what wing chun is seem to vary. Good luck with your upcoming dental bills.

What is a few broken teeth? Dental bills sound very expensive where you live. I just have them pulled out or fixed cheap.


Wow, you really know how to throw out them insults.

You know this guy is a joke as well as I do. Note I do not insult people who are not laughable failures. I am respectful to you because I know what you have done. Frost is an MMA troll. He deserves zero respect, particularly as his whole MO is to denigrate wing chun from a position of zero experience and zero skill. He can F* off as far as I am concerned.


Perhaps the same applies to you.

I produced a clip

Sure is a lack of clips around here

[anerlich]

The attacker in this case is not equal to the job. The rules are body shots and head palms.

According to you he is a Xingyi master. If he's not a worthy opponent, then the clip is no great demonstration of anything. If Jerry is as skilled as you claim, surely he could have got in a decent body shot?

Where is the clip of you training with full contact head shots?

[LFJ]

Where is the clip of you training with full contact head shots?

Yeah, bare knuckle full contact head shots.

He says there's "a lot of blood". Sounds super hardcore. Let's see it.

[anerlich]

Yeah, bare knuckle full contact head shots.

He says there's "a lot of blood". Sounds super hardcore. Let's see it.

Lots of blood might be hardcore, but ... no one is so hardcore they can ignore the risk of AIDS or Hepatitis B.

Presumably everyone has had Hep B vaccinations? It's not expensive - three courses and you are covered for 20+ years. Hep B more infectious than HIV and lasts much longer outside the body. I'd recommend it for everyone who does contact sports ... or martial arts, fighting, whatever you call it. No good reason not to IMO.


What is a few broken teeth?

Bad news for your bank balance and job prospects. And while chicks allegedly dig scars (not exactly a given), I've not met many who go weak at the knees at the sight of a missing tooth.

In the words of John MacEnroe .... you cannot be serious.

I was missing a front tooth for a while, and I got real strange looks from the girls at work, most of the guys too. They thought I was a psycho or regularly binge drinking and getting into bar fights. I had to have orthodontic braces for six months in an attempt to stretch the gap enough for an implant, which is no fun at all ... and after that, the dentist decided it hadn't worked well enough and gave me a bridge anyway. Probably over 7000 AUD all up with both dental and orthodontic fees. Not to mention the 24/7 static I got from my wife.

I spent about $18000 for two implants. They work really well, but this was real cutting edge tech at the time. They even had a rep from the implant manufacturer come out from Italy to watch my dental surgeon do it.

I could have gone to Thailand or a few other places in Asia to get it done cheaper, admittedly.

You can't spar hard while all this is going on, especially taking full power bareknuckle punches in the mouth.

Presumably you're not paying these fees because you're filing your broken teeth down with an angle grinder or pulling them out with pliers. And your SO and other people you have to deal with on a daily basis know their place. H3ll, your full contact training without protection will have made you tough enough.

If you think "realistic training" is worth a few teeth, I have to question your sanity.

This presumes you are actually training the way you claim, which I would imagine fewer and fewer readers believe as this thread progresses.

C'mon, son. Stop this madness.

[Sean66]

Yes, guy b, you really do sound hard-core.
Would be a pleasure to see the clip you produced. Could you post a link to it, please?

[guy b.]

According to you he is a Xingyi master. If he's not a worthy opponent, then the clip is no great demonstration of anything. If Jerry is as skilled as you claim, surely he could have got in a decent body shot?

Where is the clip of you training with full contact head shots?

He is a Xingyi master. Jerry is better than him and this is why Jerry does not get hit much.

[guy b.]

Lots of blood might be hardcore, but ... no one is so hardcore they can ignore the risk of AIDS or Hepatitis B.

Presumably everyone has had Hep B vaccinations? It's not expensive - three courses and you are covered for 20+ years. Hep B more infectious than HIV and lasts much longer outside the body. I'd recommend it for everyone who does contact sports ... or martial arts, fighting, whatever you call it. No good reason not to IMO.

Nobody I train with has HIV or Hep B. The same concerns apply to any contact sport, especially grappling.




Bad news for your bank balance and job prospects. And while chicks allegedly dig scars (not exactly a given), I've not met many who go weak at the knees at the sight of a missing tooth.

In the words of John MacEnroe .... you cannot be serious.

Blunt force knocks out teeth, not bareness of knuckles. Gum shields are also compatible with bare handed training.

The main difference between gloved and non-gloved training is hand cuts and injuries. Not training bare handed is not training fighting- it is training ring sport.

[guy b.]

Yeah, bare knuckle full contact head shots.

He says there's "a lot of blood". Sounds super hardcore. Let's see it.

Nobody has posted anything in response to my initial post. When better wing chun gets posted then I will think about posting something else.

[guy b.]

Yes, guy b, you really do sound hard-core.
Would be a pleasure to see the clip you produced. Could you post a link to it, please?

There is nothing hard core about sensible traditional training.

I'm just surprised you are not doing it. Very interesting. What else don't you do?

[Frost]

Oh I see, im basically saying the same thing to you as Ronin, Andrew, Sean LFJ and well everyone on this thread but im trolling and they aren’t lol
Insult away basement dweller I’m the only one who has actually posted themselves doing anything all you can post is well a slap vest which you think is actually good training of someone other than you

Hell even the other wing chunners on this thread are telling you it not a great clip and its not good training unless you also gloved up and hit each other, so either they are trolling alongside me or gasp you have no idea about training and are an internet tough guy

Now let me see which the most likely scenario is likely to be:
A) we are all trolling you,
B) no one else other than you understands the real chun and how to really train for fighting, or…well
C) you are seriously deluded and are doing a very good impersonation of an ostrich with its head in the sand
I know where my money is
And the more and more you post the more you remind me of that humble wingchun guy who used to post, right down to the insults and claims of stand up fighting prowess , have you trolled these forums before? come on tell us we don’t mind 

[guy b.]

Oh I see, im basically saying the same thing to you as Ronin, Andrew, Sean LFJ and well everyone on this thread but im trolling

People who have no experience do not deserve respect or consideration paid to their comments. It is just empty air. This is what makes you a troll.


Insult away basement dweller I’m the only one who has actually posted themselves doing anything all you can post is well a slap vest which you think is actually good training of someone other than you

Clips of me have featured on this forum before. I can't say I have seen any clips of you.


the other wing chunners on this thread are telling you it not a great clip and its not good training unless you also gloved up and hit each other

Did WSL train well and was he good? Was Yip Man good?

If you think they were not good then why on earth are you on a wing chun forum?

If they were good then how did they get that way without gloved training?

[LFJ]

Nobody has posted anything in response to my initial post. When better wing chun gets posted then I will think about posting something else.

They have, but "better wing chun" is apparently quite subjective.

I think I know how it is that you do all this full contact bare knuckle training... you're an expert at dodging! :D:rolleyes:

[guy b.]

They have, but "better wing chun" is apparently quite subjective.

Low level san shou and UFC 3 are better wing chun than my initial clip? Lol. Each to their own I suppose.


I think I know how it is that you do all this full contact bare knuckle training... you're an expert at dodging! :D:rolleyes:

Movement is essential in any bare handed training

[Frost]

People who have no experience do not deserve respect or consideration paid to their comments. It is just empty air. This is what makes you a troll.



Clips of me have featured on this forum before. I can't say I have seen any clips of you.



Did WSL train well and was he good? Was Yip Man good?

If you think they were not good then why on earth are you on a wing chun forum?

If they were good then how did they get that way without gloved training?

WSL that well known former boxer, never did gloved up sparring...okkkkkk

[guy b.]

WSL that well known former boxer, never did gloved up sparring...okkkkkk

WSL didn't train gloved sparring.

Was he good? How did he get that way?

[WcForMe]

I'm curious guy what do you think of this as nobody seems to be posting videos including you.

http://youtu.be/eGq16earzl8

[guy b.]

I'm curious guy what do you think of this as nobody seems to be posting videos including you.

http://youtu.be/eGq16earzl8

Thank you for posting a clip. I don't really like this style of wing chun because I feel it lacks forward intent and chases arms. But each to their own.

[WcForMe]

Well number 1 thanks for being respectful. That clip is of Sifu Brian Desir, to give you some very quick background he has trained with Austin Goh, Sam Kwok and Ip Chun to my knowledge as well as training in Thailand doing full contact Thai boxing. He is a British full contact champion twice. I can't speak for Brian but as far as I know and he has told me this is true.

I'm curious to which part or parts you think he is chasing hands? From what I can see and have been taught I don't see that. I believe his structure to be better than your clip. But you will and do disagree.

Regarding forward intent, this man is constantly using forward intent I can promise you that. Seen it, felt it, believe me or not no biggy for me. Now on a personal note I know this is not his best fighting. Which you can clearly see if you know what your looking at. Oh and sorry there wearing gloves and not going full power. So I assume there not up to your grade? Oh but wait unlike Jerry they actually hit each other! Anybody else feel free to comment on the video.

[wckf92]

I'm curious to which part or parts you think he is chasing hands? From what I can see and have been taught I don't see that.

Hi WcForMe. I think the chasing hands/legs starts right away, specific example would be at the :53 second mark. That might be one example of what Guy is referencing? Thanks.

[LFJ]

Anybody else feel free to comment on the video.

I agree with guy b.'s assessment here.

He was not pressuring forward but standing outside of ideal striking range, and not angling at all but standing directly in front of the sparring partner. This forced him to use "Wing Chun style" blocks to try and stop everything being thrown at him from all four limbs. He was fighting the limbs and not the man. This is hand/limb-chasing. Since he was out of range he was also overextending his shots, either making his stance too wide or raising his rear foot off the ground; things which cause further loss of mobility and power.

Basically, it was very similar to what Jerry was doing in his clip (out of range, standing directly in front and messing with hands up the middle, and overextending shots) only Jerry did a lot less movement on account of he kept running away... :rolleyes:

Both clips lack fighting strategy.

[WcForMe]

Ok guys many thanks for the feedback! Good to here different peoples views on a clip! I personally don't agree with all that was been said but I respect everybody's views. Both these guys are over 6ft 3! So they are tall guys with massive reach! I personally can't fight like that as I'm only 5ft 8 hence was my original reason for choosing wing chun hence wcforme haha!

I would agree there isn't loads of angling going on, but I hope you all listened to Brian speak at the beginning of the video explaining what he wanted to do! But he steps in quite a bit see his front foot meet his opponents nicely. I wouldn't call pak sao, bong sao, tan Sao, bil sao chasing hands. He creates distance for kicks and a few angles to make it work. As I said this is far from his best fighting ability.But if you guys don't agree that's fine. Hopefully can make some reasonable thread out of a bunch of bickering. Critasicm is more than welcome. Just to clarify neather of these gentleman are me. Sifu Brian would destroy me in about 2 seconds. So anybody that can actually fight better than me I'm willing to listen and to learn. Everybody has something to offer imo.

[anerlich]

The rugged good looks you get from contact sport without protective gear

9550

[anerlich]

Nobody I train with has HIV or Hep B.

You can't be sure of that, and neither can they. Every responsible sport removes bleeding players from the field of play immediately because of such risks.


The same concerns apply to any contact sport, especially grappling.

You know, I said something very similar above. I'm making a general recommendation for Hep B vaccinations, not accusing anyone of anything. Getting vaccinated should not reflect on your training partners or yourself. Sheesh.



Blunt force knocks out teeth, not bareness of knuckles. Gum shields are also compatible with bare handed training.


But you said above you regard broken teeth as inconsequential and cheap to fix. Or something very similar. So why bother?


The main difference between gloved and non-gloved training is hand cuts and injuries.

And there is a fairly easy way to avoid or mitigate that .... :rolleyes:

[anerlich]

Basically, it was very similar to what Jerry was doing in his clip (out of range, standing directly in front and messing with hands up the middle, and overextending shots) only Jerry did a lot less movement on account of he kept running away...

This ^^

I don't really see a problem with either clip for what it is. But WCforMe's clip looks like two clubmates having a friendly spar. Nothing wrong with that, but this is not wing chun under pressure. I'm not saying these guys might not be competent, just that this clip isn't showing them giving or receiving real pressure.

I'd be looking to hit both their front legs with a low ankle shoot, but this isn't a grappling match.

It's hypocritical to criticise these guys for lacking forward intent, when in the vaunted clip with Jerry most of what he shows is backward intent at high speed.

[JPinAZ]

I agree with guy b.'s assessment here.

He was not pressuring forward but standing outside of ideal striking range, and not angling at all but standing directly in front of the sparring partner. This forced him to use "Wing Chun style" blocks to try and stop everything being thrown at him from all four limbs. He was fighting the limbs and not the man. This is hand/limb-chasing. Since he was out of range he was also overextending his shots, either making his stance too wide or raising his rear foot off the ground; things which cause further loss of mobility and power.

Basically, it was very similar to what Jerry was doing in his clip (out of range, standing directly in front and messing with hands up the middle, and overextending shots) only Jerry did a lot less movement on account of he kept running away... :rolleyes:

Both clips lack fighting strategy.

I agree with everything said above.


Ok guys many thanks for the feedback! Good to here different peoples views on a clip! I personally don't agree with all that was been said but I respect everybody's views. Both these guys are over 6ft 3! So they are tall guys with massive reach! I personally can't fight like that as I'm only 5ft 8 hence was my original reason for choosing wing chun hence wcforme haha!

If they have equal height/reach, it shouldn't matter - height/reach is really only a factor when there's a great difference between the 2 people.


I would agree there isn't loads of angling going on, but I hope you all listened to Brian speak at the beginning of the video explaining what he wanted to do! But he steps in quite a bit see his front foot meet his opponents nicely. I wouldn't call pak sao, bong sao, tan Sao, bil sao chasing hands. He creates distance for kicks and a few angles to make it work.

IMO, just looking at what he's doing as 'techniques' is a chasing hands POV from the start (no offence intended). The fact that he isn't entering in and closing off the space while using those techniques to mainly 'block' means he is focusing mainly on the attacks coming in and countering vs. shutting down the line and limiting his opponent's ability to continue to fire those shots. Without effecting his opponent's COG or facing and only focusing on using techniques against his opponent's techniques is chasing hands. Example - right in the beginning of the sparring (@0:53) he 'blocks' 2 repeated kicks while leaning fwd. He doesn't change the range, doesn't move it - just holds his position and swats at them while looking right at the kicks. No WC bridging in any of that, just chasing hands/kicks while 'blocking'.

Now, to be fair, maybe the guy does have skill and has competed - Hats off to him for that. But from a WC principle perspective, this is a very limited demonstration IMO.

[JPinAZ]

I don't really see a problem with either clip for what it is. But WCforMe's clip looks like two clubmates having a friendly spar. Nothing wrong with that, but this is not wing chun under pressure. I'm not saying these guys might not be competent, just that this clip isn't showing them giving or receiving real pressure.

Also agreed. But they are also doing a lot of things you wouldn't be doing if your WC was regularly trained under pressure.


It's hypocritical to criticise these guys for lacking forward intent, when in the vaunted clip with Jerry most of what he shows is backward intent at high speed.

Haha. true - unless you feel both MCforMe's clip and Jerry's clip all demonstrate lack of fwd intent ;)

[anerlich]

Also agreed. But they are also doing a lot of things you wouldn't be doing if your WC was regularly trained under pressure.

yeahhhh ... but I think you can and should try things in a low pressure environment that you wouldn't consider when the pressure is on.

I try all sorts of weird sh*t during flow rolls in Jiu Jitsu that I wouldn't dream of trying in a competitive situation. And yes, before anyone jumps on me, I know a competition isn't a real fight. Presumably you've done a fair amount of both if you are appointing yourself as fit to judge.

That's how you learn. OTOH, if you don't go hard regularly (and that might need be only 10% of the time, the right balance is probably an individual thing), you end up with holes in your game and poor defence.

Trying to find an optimum balance is hard .... finding a balance that might not be totally optimal but will still help you improve is not.

I'm mainly participating in this discussion for fun (OK, trolling). Really I can't see the point of arguing about training methodologies as an all-or-nothing thing. As long as the student is continually improving, that is the important thing. And not everyone has the same goals for that improvement. If you're not sure, try as many approaches as possible, and choose those that best produce the desired results.

[LFJ]

IMO, just looking at what he's doing as 'techniques' is a chasing hands POV from the start (no offence intended). The fact that he isn't entering in and closing off the space while using those techniques to mainly 'block' means he is focusing mainly on the attacks coming in and countering vs. shutting down the line and limiting his opponent's ability to continue to fire those shots. Without effecting his opponent's COG or facing and only focusing on using techniques against his opponent's techniques is chasing hands.

Right.


I wouldn't call pak sao, bong sao, tan Sao, bil sao chasing hands.

Just because they are Wing Chun shapes, doesn't mean they necessarily aren't chasing hands.

He was using them individually as mere blocks while staying outside, not as helping hands to open up lines of attack while closing off space and limiting the other guy's ability to continue, as JP says. There was a ton of space between them, which is why he had to keep using those as blocks without attacking.


I would agree there isn't loads of angling going on, but I hope you all listened to Brian speak at the beginning of the video explaining what he wanted to do!

A light and friendly "technical" spar doesn't mean strategy can't be used. Without the fighting strategy, even using "Wing Chun" shapes, there's no Wing Chun.


But he steps in quite a bit see his front foot meet his opponents nicely.

But what does his back foot do? It often stays back while he overextends his stance (1:12) putting too much weight on his front leg, limiting his mobility, forcing him to jerk his head back to avoid the counter strike, completely breaking his structure and putting his stance and spine in a very awkward position which would spell bad news if the opponent pressured forward then.

His student is also guilty of this bending the spine to avoid head shots, as in just before that with bong-sau at 1:11. Pause and take a took. It's ridiculously bad position. Brian's was not as exaggerated, but still bad.

The other footwork thing he does very often is he raises the rear foot from the ground as he over extends his punch, breaking the power line to the ground and limiting the power of his strikes (1:04/1:33/2:22/2:24/2:42).

Notice in these instances his punch is often reaching over the top of his opponent's arms with an elbow-up punch. He even throws a horizontal power punch from a horse stance (2:49) like CLF or something, not Wing Chun.

[WcForMe]

Finally I feel like there's some real good observations and statements being made that actually had some body to it and some intelligent advice, criticising going on. You have to bear with me loads of replies good and bad, I'm I'm England so when I'm sleeping you guys are writing so il try to keep up.


This ^^

I don't really see a problem with either clip for what it is. But WCforMe's clip looks like two clubmates having a friendly spar. Nothing wrong with that, but this is not wing chun under pressure. I'm not saying these guys might not be competent, just that this clip isn't showing them giving or receiving real pressure.

It's hypocritical to criticise these guys for lacking forward intent, when in the vaunted clip with Jerry most of what he shows is backward intent at high speed.

I would whole heartily agree with all of this. I'm not saying the clip I posted is the best wing chun ever. Im not claiming that myself or anybody that I train with or trains me are the gatekeepers of any lineage of wing chun.
I totally agree there is a lack of pressure but as Sifu Brian stated as most of you have pointed out, it is a friendly exchange to try and work some techniques in a free environment rather than some pre worked out drills.

Also I would like to bring to light a Sifu, student relationship. I firmly believe every Sifu has a duty of care to his or her students. If Sifu Brian just opened up and demolished his student what is learned? I'm sure Sifu Brian knows his ability and this isn't a showcase of his ability. A good Sifu I believe should build confidence in his or her Students ability. The tricky thing is not to over build confidence so every person thinks there the baddest fighter on the planet.

I train mainly for fitness, for fun, and to learn something useful. I live in a good area, street fights, muggings and violence does happen but it's unlikely it would happen to you. So I spend 6 hours a week under tutelage, maybe another 4 hours solo practicing or with a friend. I tested myself with mma and any other styles that wanted to because I wanted to see personally what worked and what didn't. I did that off my in back not through my clubs or organisations I train with. I'm not training to fight professional fighters or to knock out Mike Tyson and the such. Just to defend myself, family and friends if it ever came to it. So I would say I put in a great deal of effort just for that. But everybody trains for different reasons.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, I fought Vale Tudo when it was still bare knukle and no weight limits.
I fought Kyokushin when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither cases did I train with NO GLOVES when it came to head shots and neither did anyone else.
I have never been to ANY gym were training was done full contact with NO protective gear.
I have seen full contact and no gloves But with protective (dome) headgear ( Daidojuku for example).
I have trained in N.America, in Europe AND Japan under those conditions and, again I repeat, I have never seen full contact bare knuckle TRAINING with no protective gear.

[WcForMe]

I agree with everything said above.



If they have equal height/reach, it shouldn't matter - height/reach is really only a factor when there's a great difference between the 2 people.



IMO, just looking at what he's doing as 'techniques' is a chasing hands POV from the start (no offence intended). The fact that he isn't entering in and closing off the space while using those techniques to mainly 'block' means he is focusing mainly on the attacks coming in and countering vs. shutting down the line and limiting his opponent's ability to continue to fire those shots. Without effecting his opponent's COG or facing and only focusing on using techniques against his opponent's techniques is chasing hands. Example - right in the beginning of the sparring (@0:53) he 'blocks' 2 repeated kicks while leaning fwd. He doesn't change the range, doesn't move it - just holds his position and swats at them while looking right at the kicks. No WC bridging in any of that, just chasing hands/kicks while 'blocking'.

Now, to be fair, maybe the guy does have skill and has competed - Hats off to him for that. But from a WC principle perspective, this is a very limited demonstration IMO.

Thanks for your reply. I don't take any offence from what you have pointed out whatsoever. I feel you do have some excellent points to be honest. Especially regarding cog,shutting off the line etc. LFJ I agree with you on the leaning in. I personally hate this part and I don't do it for the reasons you have brought up. I have seen it work for some of these gentlemen but I don't agree with it personally. Any martial artist will have things they will use and things they personally discard from a given Sifu. This is defiantly a part I discard myself. Also about the distance and chasing hands I can understand your points and duely noted. Has anybody ever agreed with every single thing they have been taught with one Sifu? I'm on my second Sifu now because I didn't agree with everything in honesty.

But I personally feel Sifu Brian is being very shall I say kind to his student and letting him work his movements regardless if you feel it is right or wrong. Regarding height I can completely understand what your saying and in honesty that didn't occur to me so a valid point, and the same goes for your observation about his rear foot.

I know Sifu Brian has competed, I'm unsure of his involvement with Thai boxing and comps, but it's a fact that he is full contact British Kung Fu champion twice. He has my upmost respect as a martial artist, and Sifu and as a person. I am not willing to throw mud at him as I truely respect him with the upmost sincerity. I am unyielding in this opinion regardless what anybody else thinks or feels. I am not a spokesperson for Sifu Brian, I have no authority for that. I can only relay the info I have been told or seen myself.

These posts have proved one thing to me. Don't judge anybody based on a video. Only by touching hands and feeling the person in question can you have a very good personal opinion on any martial artist. However I do think you and LFJ have a very keen eye for fighting and amazing observational skills. Kudos to you for that. Also regarding strategy I feel is another excellent point that I personally overlook and with those remarks have made me think about wing chun and fighting in general in another way. Many thanks.

[WcForMe]

yeahhhh ... but I think you can and should try things in a low pressure environment that you wouldn't consider when the pressure is on.

I try all sorts of weird sh*t during flow rolls in Jiu Jitsu that I wouldn't dream of trying in a competitive situation. And yes, before anyone jumps on me, I know a competition isn't a real fight. Presumably you've done a fair amount of both if you are appointing yourself as fit to judge.

That's how you learn. OTOH, if you don't go hard regularly (and that might need be only 10% of the time, the right balance is probably an individual thing), you end up with holes in your game and poor defence.

Trying to find an optimum balance is hard .... finding a balance that might not be totally optimal but will still help you improve is not.

I'm mainly participating in this discussion for fun (OK, trolling). Really I can't see the point of arguing about training methodologies as an all-or-nothing thing. As long as the student is continually improving, that is the important thing. And not everyone has the same goals for that improvement. If you're not sure, try as many approaches as possible, and choose those that best produce the desired results.

A very well thought out post. Total respect for all that has been said brother. I have nothing more to add to this. Perfect.

[LFJ]

I totally agree there is a lack of pressure but as Sifu Brian stated as most of you have pointed out, it is a friendly exchange to try and work some techniques in a free environment rather than some pre worked out drills.

But at the expense of Wing Chun fighting strategy. Forgetting about fighting strategy and just trying to work some techniques is what turned most of it into limb chasing. Bit of a detriment.


If Sifu Brian just opened up and demolished his student what is learned?

One can still use Wing Chun fighting strategy without totally wrecking the sparring partner. Cutting off their attacks, taking up space, disrupting their facing and balance... All these things can be done in a controlled manner where the student can clearly see and feel how it works and learn from it. And opportunities can be given to them to work the same tactics. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

[LFJ]

But I personally feel Sifu Brian is being very shall I say kind to his student and letting him work his movements regardless if you feel it is right or wrong.

I think that was more than obvious. I just find it a shame that basic Wing Chun fighting strategy was unnecessarily abandoned for whatever purpose.

He has cool dreads and a slick accent though! :cool:

[WcForMe]

LFJ I just edited my last post on page 7 to include you as I got confused with all my replies lol please re look at it.

Cool dreads for sure! And a slick accent lol you joker! Many thanks for your input. You have brought some awesome points to the table. I understand your limb chasing pov a lot better now. Also your point on all or nothing makes sense. So the question is how can you teach me better strategy lol! Seriously apart from what you had typed already.

I do have two clips of me sparring a friend from my previous Sifu. I haven't posted them anywhere. If you would like to see them I could post them. But I'm not that good, and I'm sure everybody will pull them apart with ease. But if people wanna see them I could possibly oblige. It would be good to see more actual sparring from others too. Let's try and pull together as a online wing chun community or at least try to find some ground that we can all agree what wing chun sparring should be. But so far some very good points in this list now I feel.

[WcForMe]

You know, I fought Vale Tudo when it was still bare knukle and no weight limits.
I fought Kyokushin when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither cases did I train with NO GLOVES when it came to head shots and neither did anyone else.
I have never been to ANY gym were training was done full contact with NO protective gear.
I have seen full contact and no gloves But with protective (dome) headgear ( Daidojuku for example).
I have trained in N.America, in Europe AND Japan under those conditions and, again I repeat, I have never seen full contact bare knuckle TRAINING with no protective gear.

Sounds like you have some impressive credentials and agreed with all of your post! So what happen to guy b? I'm pretty and wanna stay pretty thanks. I love going hard but not at the expense of my teeth (Im British, there bad enough as it is!) all for the fact that I may get attacked at some random point in my life. I'm am not the worlds greatest fighter and you have done some serious stuff I would only dream of. Full respect!!!!

[guy b.]

You can't be sure of that, and neither can they. Every responsible sport removes bleeding players from the field of play immediately because of such risks.

Sure you can. But of course badly bleeding people stop fighting in bare handed sparring.


But you said above you regard broken teeth as inconsequential and cheap to fix. Or something very similar. So why bother?

This is because you reacted like a girl to the idea of a chipped tooth. Chipped teeth occur in all grappling sports and bare handed sparring. Knocked out teeth occur far more frequently in gloved sparring. There is nothing to stop you wearing a gum shiled in bare handed sparring. I think you spent way too much on your dentistry.

[guy b.]

It's hypocritical to criticise these guys for lacking forward intent, when in the vaunted clip with Jerry most of what he shows is backward intent at high speed.

Plenty forward intent where required

[guy b.]

yeahhhh ... but I think you can and should try things in a low pressure environment that you wouldn't consider when the pressure is on.

I try all sorts of weird sh*t during flow rolls in Jiu Jitsu that I wouldn't dream of trying in a competitive situation. And yes, before anyone jumps on me, I know a competition isn't a real fight. Presumably you've done a fair amount of both if you are appointing yourself as fit to judge.

That's how you learn. OTOH, if you don't go hard regularly (and that might need be only 10% of the time, the right balance is probably an individual thing), you end up with holes in your game and poor defence.

Trying to find an optimum balance is hard .... finding a balance that might not be totally optimal but will still help you improve is not

This is true

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sounds like you have some impressive credentials and agreed with all of your post! So what happen to guy b? I'm pretty and wanna stay pretty thanks. I love going hard but not at the expense of my teeth (Im British, there bad enough as it is!) all for the fact that I may get attacked at some random point in my life. I'm am not the worlds greatest fighter and you have done some serious stuff I would only dream of. Full respect!!!!

MA to me has always been about fighting and fighting means full contact.
I don't think it is for everyone and it is most certainly a "young man's game" BUT I do believe that it should be a stage in every MA development, even more so IF they wanted to a "fighter".

[anerlich]

This is because you reacted like a girl to the idea of a chipped tooth.

More about broken teeth and those knocked out. Chipped teeth are fairly uncommon when mouthguards are worn. In my experience ... YMMV, especially as you claim far more experience than anyone else with full contact bare knuckle head shots. (Experience I daresay many may feel they could do without)

i would agree that girls usually aren't fans of damaged teeth either. You aren't exactly the Sea of Tranquillity when people criticise your favourite Youtube clip, BTW.


Chipped teeth occur in all grappling sports and bare handed sparring. Knocked out teeth occur far more frequently in gloved sparring.

Chipped teeth could occur in gloved sparring as well (I point this out because you claim to never do any, and thus might not be aware).

Presumably you have statistics to back that last statement up, since some readers seem sceptical of your claims of this nature.


There is nothing to stop you wearing a gum shiled in bare handed sparring.

I advocated that above. I've always worn one, gloves or no, and in jiu jitsu as well. Many coaches in my experience won't allow you to roll or spar without one.


I think you spent way too much on your dentistry.

Opinion noted. Perhaps you can give me a detailed breakdown of what you think I should have done based on your deep knowledge of dental procedures, their associated costs, the various alternative strategies I could have used and their associated tradeoffs. Presumably you are a dentist, work in an associated industry, or for a firm providing dental insurance, or have had substantial dental issues yourself (but of course not from full contact bareknuckle blows to the face) to be able to come to such an informed conclusion.

My financial decisions are peripheral to this fascinating argument in any case. Unless you are trying to imply my judgements there reflect my overall ability to think critically or something. Surely you would not be so cruel. :(