Shifting the stance vs Turning the Waist

[stonecrusher69]

A short descriptive video on the MCM Wing Chun perspective on the differences between Jun Ma or turning stance, commonly used in the Ip Man lineage -vs- using turning waist which is a alternative method found in the MCM Wing Chun system as well as in the Fut Sao Wing Chun lineages. This shows how both methods are valid and how I apply it at certain situations..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DFLUMvG7zQ

[Eric_H]

I have some serious doubts about the efficacy of the presented method, but the presentation in comparison to turning stance (or rather your impression of turning stance) as used the the various HK lineages was clearly presented. Thanks for the clip.

[stonecrusher69]

I have some serious doubts about the efficacy of the presented method, but the presentation in comparison to turning stance (or rather your impression of turning stance) as used the the various HK lineages was clearly presented. Thanks for the clip.

No problem..I'm glad you sort of liked it...

[Bullworker64]

Is that kind of like the Bulgarian weight lifting secrets?

[stonecrusher69]

Is that kind of like the Bulgarian weight lifting secrets?

I have no idea what the Bulgarian weight lifting secret is.

[Grumblegeezer]

I have no idea what the Bulgarian weight lifting secret is.

Me neither, so I googled it:
http://www.theironsamurai.com/2010/05/23/the-secret-to-bulgarian-training-in-olympic-weightlifting/

I just skimmed the article and I'm still not sure. Seems the idea is that there really isn't any secret. Just talent, ability and insanely hard training. And lots of steroids, of course. So that would apply to WC success and most other things too. I mean the training, not the steroids!!!! :D

[Happy Tiger]

This is an issue that is near and dear to me. These two choices are, in my mind one of the defining aspects re; the differences in wing chun. In The Ip Man/ Hong Kong houses, this one strategy,choice...a gate, if you will, is one of the most fundamental modifications to wing chun as a whole, since it concerns the root. If the spine is the core, than this more than any other singular idea changes everything. My first wing chun style, Leung Ting emphisised this idea as the standard method to exchange energy/ deploy tools and reckon footwork.
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Mr. Wrong demoing center body (waist) turning.
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And the failure with mis matched methods
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Mean while, arch rival and 100 percent waist turning (as is Wong Sheung Leung, Tsui Sheung Tin umongst others) demoing in Wing Chun Vs. Jeet Kune Do Vol. ! The failure of wing chun structure/tools using modified (read Leung Ting) shifting.
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This exchange of energy in my opinion modifies all subsequent tools, structure and footwork.
This I think it is the brainchild of Master Leung Jan. I used to think it was an invention of the Red Boats and their restricted environmemt but shifting seems to have come after this period, with no wing chun from there back seeming to have this strategy.

[Happy Tiger]

This side horse shift seems totally in line with Pin Sun wing chun. This is the 'modification' so notorious in some WC circles. This isn't a watered down 'fake' wing chun. Or deliberate gaf. The secret is to merge the two helex together for maximum effect. However, from my uninformed eye, most Hong Kong houses which mix the two cores together, there doesn't seem to be a very deep understanding of the differences between them. If true, the 'side body solution' is a fundamental advancement in wing chun but must be studyed closely to blend it into the complete curriculum

[wckf92]

This is an issue that is near and dear to me. These two choices are, in my mind one of the defining aspects re; the differences in wing chun. In The Ip Man/ Hong Kong houses, this one strategy,choice...a gate, if you will, is one of the most fundamental modifications to wing chun as a whole, since it concerns the root. If the spine is the core, than this more than any other singular idea changes everything. My first wing chun style, Leung Ting emphisised this idea as the standard method to exchange energy/ deploy tools and reckon footwork.
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Mr. Wrong demoing center body (waist) turning.
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Mean while, arch rival and 100 percent waist turning (as is Wong Sheung Leung, Tsui Sheung Tin umongst others) demoing in Wing Chun Vs. Jeet Kune Do Vol. ! The failure of wing chun structure/tools using modified (read Leung Ting) shifting.
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This exchange of energy in my opinion modifies all subsequent tools, structure and footwork.
This I think it is the brainchild of Master Leung Jan. I used to think it was an invention of the Red Boats and their restricted environmemt but shifting seems to have come after this period, with no wing chun from there back seeming to have this strategy.


The links don't work(?)...

[Happy Tiger]

The links don't work(?)...
Sorry 'bout that. Fixed

[Happy Tiger]

This pic. shows the mechanics of side shifted stance
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And dealing with an attack
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Now, this, in my opinion is a good illustration of side shifted executed with the wrong mechanics.
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This is from the book Why Wing Chun Works by Alan Gibson.
Don't walk my side of the street with this structure, that's all I can say. ;)

[wckf92]

So, which one are you advocating? The LT version?

[Happy Tiger]

So, which one are you advocating? The LT version?
I use both modes in my game. I structure them as I was taught with the proper relative tool positioning for each. Having never been trained in a house which mixed them ready made, I discovered for myself these points. This is a gate that links and unlinks, the theory to that is what really bears close inspection. If I understand you right, if you shift, use the modified tool structure demonstrated by LT.

[LFJ]

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He has swayed his central axis to one side, overloading the rear leg, and placing his shoulders behind his hips, with his feet very narrow. This breaks his own posture and severely limits his mobility. He does this in expectation that an idiot is going to go sailing past him when he sways off line and strikes them. All one really has to do is reface and attack the line over his rear foot that he has now overloaded and is leaning back on, shoulders behind hips. He's very vulnerable to many forward pressuring attacks in that position on the terrible line he's created; from leg shoots to simple refacing punch follow ups.


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Mr. Wrong's main problem here seems to be timing. He's not really in a bad position. All he needs to do is know how to use bong to open the line for his punch from wu, turning the opponent and opening an avenue of attack. Again, timing is his problem here. If instead he swayed his body to the side and used bong to passively redirect the opponent's punch, turning himself and not the opponent, all the opponent has to do is immediately jat with his punching hand and punch him in the face as he refaces with the second hand.


Mean while, arch rival and 100 percent waist turning (as is Wong Sheung Leung, Tsui Sheung Tin umongst others) demoing in Wing Chun Vs. Jeet Kune Do Vol. ! The failure of wing chun structure/tools using modified (read Leung Ting) shifting.

WSL never taught to fight from YJKYM and just shift to deal with an attacker. That's stupid. You have to be dynamic and move. Turning is only done to face our line of attack on the opponent. It's done from the waist to maintain striking range and use full body knockout power. Taan-sau is also not used to block punches like that. So, what you're showing in these last posts has nothing to do with WSLVT.

[Happy Tiger]

He has swayed his central axis to one side, overloading the rear leg, and placing his shoulders behind his hips, with his feet very narrow. This breaks his own posture and severely limits his mobility. He does this in expectation that an idiot is going to go sailing past him when he sways off line and strikes them. All one really has to do is reface and attack the line over his rear foot that he has now overloaded and is leaning back on, shoulders behind hips. He's very vulnerable to many forward pressuring attacks in that position on the terrible line he's created; from leg shoots to simple refacing punch follow ups.



Mr. Wrong's main problem here seems to be timing. He's not really in a bad position. All he needs to do is know how to use bong to open the line for his punch from wu, turning the opponent and opening an avenue of attack. Again, timing is his problem here. If instead he swayed his body to the side and used bong to passively redirect the opponent's punch, turning himself and not the opponent, all the opponent has to do is immediately jat with his punching hand and punch him in the face as he refaces with the second hand.



WSL never taught to fight from YJKYM and just shift to deal with an attacker. That's stupid. You have to be dynamic and move. Turning is only done to face our line of attack on the opponent. It's done from the waist to maintain striking range and use full body knockout power. Taan-sau is also not used to block punches like that. So, what you're showing in these last posts has nothing to do with WSLVT.
WSL house does not shift at all, that's true. That's my point. Of the three houses I know, only LT idea this strategy. From your perspective I see why you would think it stupid.

[Happy Tiger]

Sigong Wong Shun Leung demoing center body turning
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Tan Da
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The mechanics of this center body turning are sound. Nice,no leaks.

[Happy Tiger]

I think I might start a thread on the traditional concept of Float, Sink, Swallow and Spit. This concept on energy exchange is at the center of side shifting, IMHO. All I can tell you at this point is, when the feel is right, this gate opens and the choice works...for me...

[guy b.]

I'm not really getting the gist of this thread.

WSL turns differently to LT. Ok.

Which method are you advocating and which are you saying is crap? Or are both crap and you have something different?

[wckf92]

Movement is movement in my book. I've been trained in the "50/50" shift; the "70/30" shift; heels only; ball of foot only, etc etc blah blah... it's all movement to me. It's a tool in the toolbox. Nobody is that precise anyway. And besides, WC is an idea... which grows from there.
On another note: much of this conversation depends on the reference point between the WC practitioner vs the opponent.
Carry on Lads!

[Happy Tiger]

Movement is movement in my book. I've been trained in the "50/50" shift; the "70/30" shift; heels only; ball of foot only, etc etc blah blah... it's all movement to me. It's a tool in the toolbox. Nobody is that precise anyway. And besides, WC is an idea... which grows from there.
On another note: much of this conversation depends on the reference point between the WC practitioner vs the opponent.
Carry on Lads!
Well there you go, then

[Happy Tiger]

Movement is movement in my book. I've been trained in the "50/50" shift; the "70/30" shift; heels only; ball of foot only, etc etc blah blah... it's all movement to me. It's a tool in the toolbox. Nobody is that precise anyway. And besides, WC is an idea... which grows from there.
On another note: much of this conversation depends on the reference point between the WC practitioner vs the opponent.
Carry on Lads!
That's why I do bare knuckle from time to time...the etc.etc. bla, bla, bla part :)

[Happy Tiger]

I'm not really getting the gist of this thread.

WSL turns differently to LT. Ok.

Which method are you advocating and which are you saying is crap? Or are both crap and you have something different?
I know, right? It's really hard to describe this idea clearly.

[wckf92]

That's why I do bare knuckle from time to time...the etc.etc. bla, bla, bla part :)

:D

BTW, I like the old school wooden bench your standing on haha

[Happy Tiger]

:D

BTW, I like the old school wooden bench your standing on haha
Great for demos! :)

[LFJ]

Sigong Wong Shun Leung demoing center body turning

Tan Da

The mechanics of this center body turning are sound. Nice,no leaks.

WSL deliberately put mistakes in that production because people shouldn't be learning off videos. In particular, the footwork is wrong and there is no taan-da in the fighting system he taught. That's turning toward the attack and using two hands to defend against one. Fundamental errors/ bad habits.

[Happy Tiger]

WSL deliberately put mistakes in that production because people shouldn't be learning off videos. In particular, the footwork is wrong and there is no taan-da in the fighting system he taught. That's turning toward the attack and using two hands to defend against one. Fundamental errors/ bad habits.
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I don't know about that

[LFJ]

If you prefer to learn from pictures and videos, that's up to you.

[Happy Tiger]

If you prefer to learn from pictures and videos, that's up to you.
I am from WSL house. My sifu is Li Man Kit. I use pics. for reference only.
Additionally, the point being made is not the who uses what but the structure of the tools and mechanics relevant to shifting vs. turning.
This idea that our sigong was some how deceptive goes against everything I know about him

[LFJ]

I am from WSL house. My sifu is Li Man Kit. I use pics. for reference only.
Additionally, the point being made is not the who uses what but the structure of the tools and mechanics relevant to shifting vs. turning.
This idea that our sigong was some how deceptive goes against everything I know about him

It's the common practice in Chinese MA to "mark" materials provided for public consumption. That way we can clearly see who is a legit student of a given teacher, and who learned from videos, or only attended basic public seminars. You'll find this in any style throughout China. In many cases, if a teacher were to give out full information to the public they'd be given heat from their peers. When materials are "marked", only legit students will be able to recognize where.

[Happy Tiger]

It's the common practice in Chinese MA to "mark" materials provided for public consumption. That way we can clearly see who is a legit student of a given teacher, and who learned from videos, or only attended basic public seminars. You'll find this in any style throughout China. In many cases, if a teacher were to give out full information to the public they'd be given heat from their peers. When materials are "marked", only legit students will be able to recognize where.
This doesn't fall into that category. I am legit. I am aware of the controversy re: this production. If you believe it, so be it.

[LFJ]

This doesn't fall into that category. I am legit. I am aware of the controversy re: this production. If you believe it, so be it.

You mean you don't think he marked the film? He said so himself...

[Happy Tiger]

You mean you don't think he marked the film? He said so himself...
I can count maybe 6 or 7 points that aren't hard line WSL accepted method. That doesn't mean that they are deliberate gafs, rather shown a certain way to reveal the geometry of WC.

[wckf92]

WSL deliberately put mistakes in that production because people shouldn't be learning off videos. In particular, the footwork is wrong and there is no taan-da in the fighting system he taught. That's turning toward the attack and using two hands to defend against one. Fundamental errors/ bad habits.

Gee...wonder where he learned that from? :D

[wckf92]

It's the common practice in Chinese MA to "mark" materials provided for public consumption. That way we can clearly see who is a legit student of a given teacher, and who learned from videos, or only attended basic public seminars. You'll find this in any style throughout China. In many cases, if a teacher were to give out full information to the public they'd be given heat from their peers. When materials are "marked", only legit students will be able to recognize where.

I wonder if this sort of thing still goes on today? Do non-Chinese instructors do this too???

[LFJ]

I wonder if this sort of thing still goes on today? Do non-Chinese instructors do this too???

I don't know about non-Chinese instructors, but it's obviously still common, as video tutorial kinds of things are modern. The idea of not sharing full knowledge to outsiders, or those unqualified (different folks have different stipulations for this), and especially not just openly to the public is very deeply rooted in Chinese MA culture. ...WSL was also Chinese...

[guy b.]

I don't know about non-Chinese instructors, but it's obviously still common, as video tutorial kinds of things are modern. The idea of not sharing full knowledge to outsiders, or those unqualified (different folks have different stipulations for this), and especially not just openly to the public is very deeply rooted in Chinese MA culture. ...WSL was also Chinese...

The problem comes when the lunatics are running the asylum and the guards don't care, as is the case with wing chun

[Happy Tiger]

I don't know about non-Chinese instructors, but it's obviously still common, as video tutorial kinds of things are modern. The idea of not sharing full knowledge to outsiders, or those unqualified (different folks have different stipulations for this), and especially not just openly to the public is very deeply rooted in Chinese MA culture. ...WSL was also Chinese...
There's a difference between not revealing all and showing fugazi. WSL was demoing beginning universal wing chun rather than specifically his own interpretations.

[Happy Tiger]

https://youtu.be/JGQLUm3wc0c

[Happy Tiger]

The images I used were to express Ideas relating to shifting and mechanics of tools. Which I think demo my points. Another thread might be "How Kung Fu Masters Obfuscate and Deceive by Sabotage and Hiding Technologies."

[Grumblegeezer]

I don't know about non-Chinese instructors, but it's obviously still common, as video tutorial kinds of things are modern. The idea of not sharing full knowledge to outsiders, or those unqualified (different folks have different stipulations for this), and especially not just openly to the public is very deeply rooted in Chinese MA culture. ...WSL was also Chinese...

OK, I accept that many Chinese sifu's hold back certain details and may "mark" movements and forms released to the public in books and videos. My old sifu, LT, often did this with his published materials. So on another forum when LFJ criticized certain movements in LT's 116 movement dummy form as shown in the 1981 Yip Chun/LT book, I immediately recognized that he was referring to one such "marked" section. So what? Those marked movements or "signatures" are details in forms and practice sequences, not fundamentals. Keeping a bit back is really fairly harmless. Tan-da, by contrast is a pretty basic movement.

If LFJ is correct, it makes WSL come across as being very deceptive and unreliable. Now maybe my old sifu had that reputation, but WSL? Say it isn't so!

[PalmStriker]

The images I used were to express Ideas relating to shifting and mechanics of tools. Which I think demo my points. Another thread might be "How Kung Fu Masters Obfuscate and Deceive by Sabotage and Hiding Technologies." :D I've got that book. A good read. No Chinese TCMA Master in Yip Man's day would have said "Hey public", I'm open for business to teach you everything you ever wanted to know about my lineage style, no modifications and no holding back.

[PalmStriker]

The problem comes when the lunatics are running the asylum and the guards don't care, as is the case with wing chun :D What guards? The Truth Police?

[LFJ]

If LFJ is correct, it makes WSL come across as being very deceptive and unreliable. Now maybe my old sifu had that reputation, but WSL? Say it isn't so!

I don't think so. If you are a legit student, you will learn properly. If you're trying to learn off a video, then you shouldn't have high expectations. One should only watch that for entertainment or a very shallow intro to WC.

What he showed isn't "wrong" by most WC lineages anyway. When invited to other sifus' schools to hold seminars, he often taught general ideas like that that didn't accord with his own approach but were basic and common enough already. At one such seminar in Europe, a legit student of his assisting said to him privately "hey, this isn't what you taught me". Then he told him he didn't want to embarrass the sifu in front of their students... A few minutes later he told his student he could teach them the "right" way. As a result, all the seminar attendees dug it and began studying under him afterward.

[Happy Tiger]

I don't think so. If you are a legit student, you will learn properly. If you're trying to learn off a video, then you shouldn't have high expectations. One should only watch that for entertainment or a very shallow intro to WC.

What he showed isn't "wrong" by most WC lineages anyway. When invited to other sifus' schools to hold seminars, he often taught general ideas like that that didn't accord with his own approach but were basic and common enough already. At one such seminar in Europe, a legit student of his assisting said to him privately "hey, this isn't what you taught me". Then he told him he didn't want to embarrass the sifu in front of their students... A few minutes later he told his student he could teach them the "right" way. As a result, all the seminar attendees dug it and began studying under him afterward.
I think I got my nose outa joint abit ,feeling you were implying I learned my VT from tapes and books.
Although I've never referred to myself as anything other than a student I am well trained formally in VT including direct instruction from sigong WSL.(1995) and Tsui Sheung Tin sigong (1998). I'm a permanent lifetime member of the VTAA.(Christmas day 1998) .I worked for over four years for GM Leung Tings sister at Kuen way martial art Supply having wonderfull opertunities for inside info on the Kung Fu scene and continue to train with all kinds of fighters always enjoying meeting new challenges. Definitely not home schooled at any rate.
I understand the points you are making but imo that's not what I have been pointing to in my presentation.
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[LFJ]

I was not at all implying that. I was using "you" in the general sense of "one"... Except when you posted a picture apparently to refute that taan-da was not a part of WSL's approach to VT fighting.

[Happy Tiger]

I was not at all implying that. I was using "you" in the general sense of "one"... Except when you posted a picture apparently to refute that taan-da was not a part of WSL's approach to VT fighting.
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I'm sorry...I couldn't help myself. :D:D;)

[LFJ]

With a finger jab to the throat too? Priceless. :D

[Grumblegeezer]

...Although I've never referred to myself as anything other than a student I am well trained formally in VT including direct instruction from sigong WSL.(1995) and Tsui Sheung Tin sigong (1998). I'm a permanent lifetime member of the VTAA.(Christmas day 1998) .I worked for over four years for GM Leung Tings sister at Kuen way martial art Supply having wonderfull opertunities for inside info on the Kung Fu scene and continue to train with all kinds of fighters always enjoying meeting new challenges...

Happy, it's rare to encounter someone with direct experience with the heads of several main branches of Yip Man Wing Chun. Most of us are more narrow in our focus and experience. It's perspectives like yours that keep me coming back to this forum. Lately I've been spending more time over on MartialTAlk. You should weigh in over there too. Certainly, LFJ does. Nice to have another point of view.

[Happy Tiger]

Happy, it's rare to encounter someone with direct experience with the heads of several main branches of Yip Man Wing Chun. Most of us are more narrow in our focus and experience. It's perspectives like yours that keep me coming back to this forum. Lately I've been spending more time over on MartialTAlk. You should weigh in over there too. Certainly, LFJ does. Nice to have another point of view.
Thanks Geezer! I will definitely check it out.