Start stop in wing chun

[guy b.]

To elaborate on recent threads concerning good examples of wing chun compared to not so good examples I thought I would post some examples of one of the most common problems in wing chun clips available on youtube: this is the start stop nature of anything approaching free movement, be it drilling or examples of light sparring.

The reason why the clip of Jerry exchanging with the xing yi guy is good is that the movement is continuous (as real confrontations are). Start stopping as in the following clip is a very counter productive way to train. You can see it all the way through the different stages. All it trains is attacking against a paralysed opponent and becoming paralysed when attacked.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T96nP8HHhs8

[PalmStriker]

:) Need to connect. Concentrate on a one and a two and a one and a two and a one and a two. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ8dLI1v0cE

[LFJ]

Do you have a proper Ving Tsun instructor? You have eyes but you do not see.

Michael Kurth is a known fighter in Germany and takes on people of various styles at his studio. Why don't you pull your Jerry-style continuous fighting on him and see which one of you ends up "paralysed"? lol

[guy b.]

Do you have a proper Ving Tsun instructor? You have eyes but you do not see.

Michael Kurth is a known fighter in Germany and takes on people of various styles at his studio. Why don't you pull your Jerry-style continuous fighting on him and see which one of you ends up "paralysed"? lol

I know who he is. The training clip is poor for the reasons mentioned, that's all.

Lots of good fighters do pointless and counter productive things in training. Lots of good fighters would be good fighters if they never bothered to train at all.

Stopping moving when you have been 'tagged' is unquestionably counter productive for both training partners. I have seen Jerry do this as well so he is not immune. It is a common wing chun problem.

[Sean66]

This type of training is a battle for superior position. When the training partner realizes that he has lost his position and has been "beat" in this sense, he stops and they start over. That's all it is. It's one stage in the progression of training toward free sparring. And Michael and his students do plenty of free sparring. With and without protection and with the knives and poles as well.

However, it is important during sparring to know when it is over. To realize when you've lost your position and have been hit with significant strikes. In full-contact sparring you know right away, but in light sparring and gor sau it can be tricky. Egos can get in the way and you can end up "forcing" techniques and creating bad habits by continuing to fight. There is a time for going all out and continuing to fight even if your losing. But it's not here in this type of very "technical" sparring shown in the clip.

[guy b.]

This type of training is a battle for superior position. When the training partner realizes that he has lost his position and has been "beat" in this sense, he stops and they start over. That's all it is. It's one stage in the progression of training toward free sparring. And Michael and his students do plenty of free sparring. With and without protection and with the knives and poles as well.

I have seen clips of free-er sparring and they do the same thing there, probably because they are training it in this sort of session and in everything else down to starting.


However, it is important during sparring to know when it is over. To realize when you've lost your position and have been hit with significant strikes. In full-contact sparring you know right away, but in light sparring and gor sau it can be tricky. Egos can get in the way and you can end up "forcing" techniques and creating bad habits by continuing to fight. There is a time for going all out and continuing to fight even if your losing. But it's not here in this type of very "technical" sparring shown in the clip.

Light sparring with this kind of paralysis and without movement and evasion of strikes is very dangerous. It teaches exactly the wrong way to behave when you are tagged by a shot. The best thing to do is to evade and counter at the appropriate speed and intensity, rather than using inapropriate strength or speed (i.e. cheating). In that way you are building skill and maintaining appropriate reactions for when pressure is on.

A lot of wing chun I see basically teaches people to hold their chins out and wait to be ko'd once their arms are passed. This is not a good way to train.

[guy b.]

From 4.30 in this clip they have gloves, taekwondo body shields and head gear on. They are still doing the stop start thing. Why?

Either the protection is not required or they are training hard contact with stop start. Neither option makes any sense.

[anerlich]

he reason why the clip of Jerry exchanging with the xing yi guy is good is that the movement is continuous (as real confrontations are).

Aaagh, no, not the friggin' Jerry clip again. :rolleyes:

[M.Kurth]

You have really no idea about what is done and shown on the vid right?
(character of a sepecific exercise for e.g.)
In training you have to know when it makes sense to continue and when it's better to stop.
And if you think that Kai, the big one, does not really trying to attack continuesly, than you should have a try with him.
Regards
Michael

PS:
Testing and training is a different thing.

[LFJ]

Guy b. sounds like one of those annoying sparring partners that you have to just knockout for them to realize when they would have lost their head. I've dealt with the type before. Then they get p!ssy with you when you knock their teeth out. :rolleyes:

[guy b.]

You have really no idea about what is done and shown on the vid right?
(character of a sepecific exercise for e.g.)
In training you have to know when it makes sense to continue and when it's better to stop.
And if you think that Kai, the big one, does not really trying to attack continuesly, than you should have a try with him.
Regards
Michael

PS:
Testing and training is a different thing.

You fight how you train. Since this characteristic persists through different levels of intensity I can only assume it carries over into fighting. Why would it not? They are training it specifically every time.

Wing chun has drills not related to fighting which are supposed to build punching reflexes, body connection and other attributes. I happen to think that these are useful. But as soon as you introduce free movement you need to move continuously because you are no longer building attributes in isolation. Stopping merely trains bad reactions for fighting.

There is no benefit in standing like a dummy while someone throws three pulled shots at your chin. This trains no realistic targetting and attack for the attacker, and no realistic defence for the defender. It would be better for both to continue at the reduced intensity of the exercise while honestly acknowledging that one got the upper hand.

[M.Kurth]

So if you are in a position where is absolutly clear that you are done you are continuing?
Really clever. LOL.
You fight like you train, yes, but your skills derive from various parts of training and you have to know how to use these parts in a proper way.

[guy b.]

So if you are in a position where is absolutly clear that you are done you are continuing?
Really clever. LOL.

It is never clear that you are done unless you are done. With good movement it is possible to escape from many situations. Training to freeze is a poor choice in this respect. Training to think "I am done" is suicidal.

In the clip shown people who are "done" leave their hands out and turn their face away as the oppoenent throws. This is really counter productive training.

Sensible training acknowledges getting tagged and even getting dominated but never stops the movement (at appropriate intensity) because movement doesn't stop in a fight until the fight is over.



You fight like you train, yes, but your skills derive from various parts of training and you have to know how to use these parts in a proper way.

Drilling in wing chun trains the reflex actions of the punch, the body mechanics, the stepping and other isolated parts. These drills should never ever be confused with fighting. Many wing chun groups do confuse these with fighting as I am sure you know, which is why many wing chun students seek arm contact and chase hands. Your guys are not doing this, but freezing in free movement is a very harmful thing for them to be training.

[LFJ]

@guy b.

In another thread you said you train full contact with bare knuckles.

Let's see your video combining full contact bareknuckle sparring with not stopping until it's over... :D

[guy b.]

@guy b.

In another thread you said you train full contact with bare knuckles.

Let's see your video combining full contact bareknuckle sparring with not stopping until it's over... :D

Sparring is timed. Dusing that time participants move naturally at the agreed intensity. Yes people get knocked down.

[M.Kurth]

So if I would train with you I would have to knock you out before you accept a situation?
Wow, I don't think that such a setting is very useful for learning.
But well, if you believe in that way, it's up to you.
But as I know, none of the real good ones, train this way.
Tit for tat sparring is never a good thing.
For sure not helping you to get skilled.

[Sean66]

@ Guy b
Please paste a link to a video of your own training (not Jerry or anyone else) so we can see exactly what you think wing chun training should be like.

[guy b.]

So if I would train with you I would have to knock you out before you accept a situation? Wow, I don't think that such a setting is very useful for learning. But well, if you believe in that way, it's up to you.

No. That is an absurd misinterpretation of my saying you should not freeze in free movement and should instead act in a way consistent with survival in a bad situation. When one person dominates a sparring session there is no hiding from the fact. There is no need to freeze and allow them to throw imaginary punches at your chin. It helps nobody.


But as I know, none of the real good ones, train this way.Tit for tat sparring is never a good thing. For sure not helping you to get skilled.

What is tit for tat sparring? Tit for tat sounds more like what is happening in this clip, taking turns to attack and freeze respectively.

I have never met a good fighter that incorporated frozen opponents and multi-shot finishing combos in their training. Usually that sort of thing is reserved for martial arts fantasists who believe their opponent will stop moving as soon as they unleash the special punch. I don't think this is you, but your start stop is not helping your students to develop.

[Sean66]

How about that video Guy B?

[LFJ]

Sparring is timed. Dusing that time participants move naturally at the agreed intensity. Yes people get knocked down.

I didn't find the link to the video of this in your post.

Something must have gone wrong. Could you repost it, please?

[guy b.]

@ Guy b
Please paste a link to a video of your own training (not Jerry or anyone else) so we can see exactly what you think wing chun training should be like.

In short wing chun training needs to strictly separate the drilling from the free movement, needs to train free movement without stopping (a common wing chun problem), needs to avoid hand chasing (confusing drills with fighting), needs to train bare handed often enough to understand the difference between gloves and bare hand, needs to vary the pressure (e.g. moving at realistic fighting speeds with lighter contact rather than the kind of slow contact sparring you often see in gloved sparring gyms), needs to stress test with realistic scenario training, needs to train against non wing chun opponents, and needs to be honest.

[M.Kurth]

Well as I said, everyone must do it his or her own way.
Obviously we have different point of views: How we see and judge things that are shown on the vid and about how training should be.
Never mind.
BR

[LFJ]

In short wing chun training needs to strictly separate the drilling from the free movement, needs to train free movement without stopping (a common wing chun problem), needs to avoid hand chasing (confusing drills with fighting), needs to train bare handed often enough to understand the difference between gloves and bare hand, needs to vary the pressure (e.g. moving at realistic fighting speeds with lighter contact rather than the kind of slow contact sparring you often see in gloved sparring gyms), needs to stress test with realistic scenario training, needs to train against non wing chun opponents, and needs to be honest.

Put this in the description box under the video you post up of you showing how it's done.

[Sean66]

Guy B.
Thank you for the description, but I would like to see a video.
I think I remember reading in another thread that you have put up a video of your work before.
Could you please paste the link here for us.

[guy b.]

Guy B.
Thank you for the description, but I would like to see a video.
I think I remember reading in another thread that you have put up a video of your work before.
Could you please paste the link here for us.

A video with me in it has been posted here before. I think there is enough info to work out which one I am in if you care to look.

[Sean66]

Just paste the link.

[guy b.]

Just paste the link.

Find it if you are interested

[GlennR]

Sparring is timed. Dusing that time participants move naturally at the agreed intensity. Yes people get knocked down.

One of your kind pops up every so often.... "you should see how we spar!!"

Nonsense, fantasy, rubbish.

[guy b.]

One of your kind pops up every so often.... "you should see how we spar!!"

Nonsense, fantasy, rubbish.

You think stop starting in sparring is bull**** too. You just hate me more than you hate them. That's ok

[GlennR]

You think stop starting in sparring is bull**** too. You just hate me more than you hate them. That's ok

Hate? Hardly.
I just think you are full of crap.

Another "we're the real deal" drama queen.

[Frost]

Hey Glenn you noticed this too, reminds me of a number of guys that have come and gone over the years, remember humblewinghcun and his full contact record we never saw? The good old days of the real hard core wing chuns guys hey, I miss them 

Its amazing I point out how wrong he is and I’m just a troll, you do the same and you are a hater, wing chun people point it out and they are just plain wrong, you would think if no one agrees with you, not the trolls, not the guys training in fighting gyms or not people with decades of actual wing chun training, some in the same linage as you, you would start to wonder if everyone hated you, or if you were just maybe, gasp, wrong!

[guy b.]

Hate? Hardly.
I just think you are full of crap.

Another "we're the real deal" drama queen.

I'm not the real deal. I am just a wing chun guy. I have trained in other things.

Are you the real deal?

Funny to see the mma contingent attacking a wing chun guy critiquing wing chun.

Seemed like it was all the rage for you guys to attack graham h and kev a while back. I suppose bullies protect their quarry from external threats?

[guy b.]

Its amazing I point out how wrong he is and I’m just a troll, you do the same and you are a hater!

You point out how 'wrong' I am and it is meaningless, because you do not train wing chun. Why are you on a wing chun forum?

Glenn points out how 'wrong' I am and it is the same old. He hates wing chun and he hates anyone messing with those he likes to mess with.

I am more concerned with the poor reception I am getting among wing chun practitioners. That is what matters to me.

[guy b.]

PBVT is generally good, but some of it is better than other of it. Inability to talk about problems is a sign of religious or cult mentality, not healthy. Kurth's clips have some problems. No big deal. Of course Kurth will not acknowledge this, but if some of his students at least think about trying continuous movement at limited intensity then I will have achieved something good. The betterment of wing chun is all I want.

[M.Kurth]

Oh, thanks for your critics. So I aplogize now formally that I have not produced exactly what you wanted to see. My fault.
LOL.
Ofc we could discuss this and that and another thing, so on etc..pp.
Actually in talking everyone can say everything and nobody ever can verify if someone and something is right or wrong.
Face to face things often are a bit different.
I am not saying I am the top of the VT-world or the top figter. Anyway I've spend some time and energy with that stuff and I think I know how I can make it work.
Nevertheless everyone has to find his or her own way, as I said before.
So good luck on your way.

[LFJ]

@guy b.

What is your VT lineage anyway? Is Jerry your sifu? Or are you self-taught?

[guy b.]

@guy b.

What is your VT lineage anyway? Is Jerry your sifu? Or are you self-taught?

I did learn from Jerry. I am currently in the UK and train VT there with someone else.

[guy b.]

Face to face things often are a bit different.

Forums are for talking.

Face to face things might be different or might not. Not relevant to the general argument really.

[M.Kurth]

Yep, that's right: 'might or might not'. So many things that we do not know because we can not see the whole picture. That's why somehow all these Forums are useless. For me I try not to care about what others do, I prefer to refer to what I can do to improve and do so. Trying to cutting the other ones line? What for.

[guy b.]

Yep, that's right: 'might or might not'. So many things that we do not know because we can not see the whole picture. That's why somehow all these Forums are useless. For me I try not to care about what others do, I prefer to refer to what I can do to improve and do so. Trying to cutting the other ones line? What for.

Up to you really. Forums can be useful for precisely the reason that nobody would say that kind of thing to someone they know/a friend/a teacher, even when they think it, for fear of causing offence. On a forum you can talk with like minded people about anything without social conventions. In this way you can get to truth quite quickly on forums in a way you cannot in real life.

You are correct that you cannot show on a forum. This is the main weakness of forums. But it doesn't invalidate logical arguments.

It is also true that you cannot fight on a forum. But what does a single fight show apart from one person beating another in combat? A single data point does not invalidate an argument. Many fighters would beat their coaches in a physical fight. It doesn't prove much apart from the fact that people get old. What does it show about knowledge? Nothing.

The main problem with wing chun as I have experienced it is that there are so few data points. Talking can only help this sad state of affairs. Just don't take it personally- it is merely voices in space saying things they wouldn't say in life.

[anerlich]

I have never met a good fighter that incorporated frozen opponents

How about Batman?

9567

[anerlich]

Seemed like it was all the rage for you guys to attack graham h and kev a while back. I suppose bullies protect their quarry from external threats?

Graham and Kev attacked everyone else. What did they (and you) expect?

Who's getting bullied? C'mon, you're loving it.

[anerlich]

In this way you can get to truth quite quickly on forums in a way you cannot in real life.

Not in my experience!

9568

[GlennR]

I'm not the real deal. I am just a wing chun guy. I have trained in other things.

Are you the real deal?

Funny to see the mma contingent attacking a wing chun guy critiquing wing chun.

Seemed like it was all the rage for you guys to attack graham h and kev a while back. I suppose bullies protect their quarry from external threats?

And i was a WC guy and i now train other things..... So that would make us both part of the *shock horror* mma contingent!!!!! (the audience looks away in disgust)

Honestly, you are acting like a hyper-sensitive child..... suck it up princess and acknowledge the facts;
- Jerrys sparring clip was crap
- You DONT do "hard core" gloveless no-holds barred sparring

Move on, you're embarrassing yourself

[GlennR]

I did learn from Jerry. I am currently in the UK and train VT there with someone else.

Then your ability to run backwards must be at Olympic level

[Frost]

Lol he learned from jerry and says the following about others

. “Inability to talk about problems is a sign of religious or cult mentality,”
better first look in the mirror lol
Not to mention
“The betterment of wing chun is all I want.” Nice humble attitude ;)

Want to improve the state of wing chun? show us the best way to train, don’t fcking talk about it in endless posts on threats you have to start because no one else really wants to come and play in your playground anymore
Stop telling us what everyone else is doing wrong, show us you and your class mates doing it right,

You are way worse then hendrick (which is something I never thought id say) at least he had the balls to post clips of himself, admittedly not doing much but it was way better than anything you have put up
Oh and for the record I might be an MMA grappling troll, but I also still train wing chun off and on with my sifu, I just don’t happen to see it as the be all and end all of Chinese arts, let alone fighting in general

[wkmark]

I did learn from Jerry. I am currently in the UK and train VT there with someone else.

Now this is quite interesting... I asked Jerry if he remembered anyone who trained with him and then went to the UK. He don't seem to remember you. If you said you trained with him BEFORE and AFTER he established PVT group, then a little bit of info about yourself would help jog his memory. It is only fair if you keep spouting out his name and all to stir up conversation here.

[guy b.]

Jerrys sparring clip was crap

You could learn a lot from Jerry


You DONT do "hard core" gloveless no-holds barred sparring

Speak for yourself

[guy b.]

Now this is quite interesting... I asked Jerry if he remembered anyone who trained with him and then went to the UK. He don't seem to remember you. If you said you trained with him BEFORE and AFTER he established PVT group, then a little bit of info about yourself would help jog his memory. It is only fair if you keep spouting out his name and all to stir up conversation here.

Hi Mark, I am guessing you and he probably don't want to be associated with this kind of forum argument. Lets just say I know you both but am not claiming to represent you in any way. There are many things you guys do that I also think are mistakes, especially you.

[wkmark]

Hi Mark, I am guessing you and he probably don't want to be associated with this kind of forum argument. Lets just say I know you both but am not claiming to represent you in any way. There are many things you guys do that I also think are mistakes, especially you.

You are indeed correct, nether Jerry and I nor our PVT group would want to be associated with this kind of forum arguments. Jerry himself wanted to know who you were when you claimed to have learned VT from him. Since you can't really provide information on that, thus based on the limited information, Jerry would like the forum members here to be aware of the fact that he doesn't remember nor know you. Therefore claiming yourself to have learned VT from him is a misrepresentation. (unless of course you can provide information on that). If you don't want to mention that out here in a public forum, you are more than welcome to message him on his FB page.

As for myself, I don't believe I have met you in person either (unless corrected otherwise). We were made aware that our names were mentioned here so we came on this forum to take a look. Afterwards, we just wanted to make some clarifications. That's all.

[LFJ]

There are many things you guys do that I also think are mistakes, especially you.

Well, it seems guy b.s. is self-taught and fancies himself better than most instructors including those he claims to have trained under, who yet don't recognize him. A bit delusional, it seems.

[Frost]

Well, it seems guy b.s. is self-taught and fancies himself better than most instructors including those he claims to have trained under, who yet don't recognize him. A bit delusional, it seems.

I for one am shocked Guy B has been making all this up and no instructor wants to be associated with him, shocked I say nothing in his posts pointed to being self taught and to him living largely in a fantasy land....:confused::eek:

[guy b.]

Since you can't really provide information on that, thus based on the limited information, Jerry would like the forum members here to be aware of the fact that he doesn't remember nor know you.

I assure you that I have trained with both you and Jerry.

I am not willing to disclose my identity because of bad feeling my posting has caused. You will just have to accept that I am afraid.

[guy b.]

Well, it seems guy b.s. is self-taught and fancies himself better than most instructors including those he claims to have trained under, who yet don't recognize him. A bit delusional, it seems.

This conclusion does not follow from the facts

[guy b.]

I for one am shocked Guy B has been making all this up and no instructor wants to be associated with him

The PVT instructors do not want to be associated with trouble. I can understand this, and I freely admit that I do not represent them in any way. This does not invalidate the fact that Jerry has good wing chun.