Bare knuckle

[guy b.]

A couple of clips for those who think people's heads explode as soon as gloves are removed:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSDcpas2W28

[guy b.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2yPbLHbu8M

[guy b.]

No death. No broken faces. Just a few cuts.

What's the problem with sparring bare handed?

[PalmStriker]

:D Pummelhead sportfighting without protective gear is nothing new and will be around for some time to come, just like rockwall mountain climbing without any ropes or gear to speak of. Less allowance for "**** happenings".

[YouKnowWho]

No death. No broken faces. Just a few cuts.

What's the problem with sparring bare handed?

You can drive a car without seat belt and air bag. If you don't have car accident, there will be "no death, no broken faces, not even cuts".

[LFJ]

No death. No broken faces.

No guy b. No Ving Tsun.

[Frost]

Its also not sparring or training its fighting, want to know how those guys train, ill give you a hint the irish lads hit the local boxing gym and train with, gasp gloves, some of them even have good amateur records
So to reiterate what LFJ said and to add to it, no guy b, no Ving Tsun and no training clips just fights

Please show standard training clips from your club with guys going at it hard every week with no gloves on, until then shut up and stop trolling

[guy b.]

Its also not sparring or training its fighting, want to know how those guys train, ill give you a hint the irish lads hit the local boxing gym and train with, gasp gloves, some of them even have good amateur records

Lol you weren't paying much attention were you?

[guy b.]

No guy b. No Ving Tsun.

Results of no glove fighting demonstrated. Tick. No exploded heads. Tick.

[guy b.]

You can drive a car without seat belt and air bag. If you don't have car accident, there will be "no death, no broken faces, not even cuts".

Car accident happened. Result equals no exploded head

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can most definitely fight bare knuckle on a regular basis.
You shouldn't of course BUT some bare knuckle fighting ( testing is not a bad idea).
You can most definitely train bare knuckle on a regular basis.
You shouldn't (for obvious reasons) nor do you have to.

Honestly, we dispelled the myth of the "full contact bare knuckle trainer VS the trainer with protective gear" decades ago.

[guy b.]

You can most definitely fight bare knuckle on a regular basis.
some bare knuckle fighting ( testing is not a bad idea).
You can most definitely train bare knuckle on a regular basis

Correct. Glad someone is able to see reason


You shouldn't (for obvious reasons) nor do you have to.

Honestly, we dispelled the myth of the "full contact bare knuckle trainer VS the trainer with protective gear" decades ago.

I disagree, because bare knuckle is intrinsically different to gloved and it pays to be familiar with it since it is what you will be doing in an actual fight. You have some bare knuckle karate background, yes?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Correct. Glad someone is able to see reason



I disagree, because bare knuckle is intrinsically different to gloved and it pays to be familiar with it since it is what you will be doing in an actual fight. You have some bare knuckle karate background, yes?

Kyokushin, yes and also Vale tudo when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled.
Honestly, in over 35 years of MA training I have never TRAINED/SPARRED bare knuckle with head shots.
Have always used gloves OR protective face gear.
I don't see a value in training bear knuckle face shots.
Testing yes, but daily training? Nope.

[guy b.]

Kyokushin, yes and also Vale tudo when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled.
Honestly, in over 35 years of MA training I have never TRAINED/SPARRED bare knuckle with head shots.
Have always used gloves OR protective face gear.
I don't see a value in training bear knuckle face shots.
Testing yes, but daily training? Nope.

Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?

[guy b.]

In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled

Did you train body shots bare knuckled? i.e. did you train for the reality of kyokushin competition?

[Happy Tiger]

Kyokushin, yes and also Vale tudo when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled.
Honestly, in over 35 years of MA training I have never TRAINED/SPARRED bare knuckle with head shots.
Have always used gloves OR protective face gear.
I don't see a value in training bear knuckle face shots.
Testing yes, but daily training? Nope.
I agree testing yes, daily trading? No. As a fighter, you really should wade in to take a hit once in a while Its good to know how touchy your own chin is.

[anerlich]

In both of those clips one or the other fighter has hands wrapped or wears light gloves. A technicality perhaps, but still ...

As I think I said on the other thread, I believe some bare handed training is beneficial. Much of the M Kurth video guy b lambasted is barehanded training. I personally don't think bare knuckle head shots are a good idea for pitcher or catcher. I guess guy b and I differ on that, as we do on the philosophy and costs of dental treatment. He's just going to have to live with that.

Guy B didn't advocate full power head shots on a daily basis. He did advocate working up to short doses of it, perhaps on some sort of periodization methodology or seasonal basis. I may have misquoted him here. Will I be sorry if he calls me out on that? Unlikely.

I think where most of us disagree with him is on his contention that the use of gloves and other similar equipment is necessarily a mortal sin and road to mediocrity. There are more than a few Wing Chun guys I know personally who have successfully dodged that particular bullet (if it is a bullet and not in fact a blank). Not to mention other stylists.

Just because a few guys fight bareknuckle on youtube does not mean it is the best or only way to train or spar. And nothing is shown about how they use or don't use protective gear in training. These clips show it is possible to have prearranged bareknuckle matches without anyone going to hospital. That isn't an argument that mimicking them is the only or even best way to go.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Did you train body shots bare knuckled? i.e. did you train for the reality of kyokushin competition?

Of course and I competed internationally too.



Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?

So, all this ranting about training bare knuckle and you are saying NOT to train bare knuckle with head shots in Wing Chun ???

[sanjuro_ronin]

In both of those clips one or the other fighter has hands wrapped or wears light gloves. A technicality perhaps, but still ...

As I think I said on the other thread, I believe some bare handed training is beneficial. Much of the M Kurth video guy b lambasted is barehanded training. I personally don't think bare knuckle head shots are a good idea for pitcher or catcher. I guess guy b and I differ on that, as we do on the philosophy and costs of dental treatment. He's just going to have to live with that.

Guy B didn't advocate full power head shots on a daily basis. He did advocate working up to short doses of it, perhaps on some sort of periodization methodology or seasonal basis. I may have misquoted him here. Will I be sorry if he calls me out on that? Unlikely.

I think where most of us disagree with him is on his contention that the use of gloves and other similar equipment is necessarily a mortal sin and road to mediocrity. There are more than a few Wing Chun guys I know personally who have successfully dodged that particular bullet (if it is a bullet and not in fact a blank). Not to mention other stylists.

Just because a few guys fight bareknuckle on youtube does not mean it is the best or only way to train or spar. And nothing is shown about how they use or don't use protective gear in training. These clips show it is possible to have prearranged bareknuckle matches without anyone going to hospital. That isn't an argument that mimicking them is the only or even best way to go.


Honestly, we have had the "train super hard core to be a real fighter" BS dismissed years ago and sure every so often it rares its uneducated ugly head BUT this is silly.

In the early years of MMA ( when it was vale tudo) there were many hard core bare knuckle fighters that fought and they fought VS guys that trained with protective gear and we all know what happened.

The reality is that why some bare knuckle testing is benefit to a MA, training bare knuckles on a regular basis is not.
What you end up with is too many injuries ( and time off because of it) and people instinctively "holding back".

Lets remember one thing also, there is NO HISTORY in WC ( or any other TCMA) of actually TRAINING full contact FIGHTING with bare knuckles.
If there is any, please show me.

[Frost]

Honestly, we have had the "train super hard core to be a real fighter" BS dismissed years ago and sure every so often it rares its uneducated ugly head BUT this is silly.

In the early years of MMA ( when it was vale tudo) there were many hard core bare knuckle fighters that fought and they fought VS guys that trained with protective gear and we all know what happened.

The reality is that why some bare knuckle testing is benefit to a MA, training bare knuckles on a regular basis is not.
What you end up with is too many injuries ( and time off because of it) and people instinctively "holding back".

Lets remember one thing also, there is NO HISTORY in WC ( or any other TCMA) of actually TRAINING full contact FIGHTING with bare knuckles.
If there is any, please show me.
What he said, if you spar without gloves only one of three things happens

1) People stop training at the club because risk isn’t worth reward
2) You cut out headshots because it hurts and is too dangerous, so you end up with unrealistic body shot only training
3) You become gun shy as people hold back as they don’t want to get hit hard in return so you end up with those slap happy sparring clips like jerrys and the vast majority of southern hand clips we see out there with unrealistic techniques and bad body positions

We have all seen over the years clips of 2 and 3 on this forum, we have yet to see a good clip of wing chun bare hand sparring which isn’t unrealistic,

I completed in a traditional chinese bare hand sparring comp back in the early 2000’s the training was all controlled and technique was lovely because no one wanted to get hurt going at it without gloves, come the national comp (which was meant to be controlled contact) all technique went out the window the first time I got smashed in the face with a bare hand punch at full power,
The irony was we were seniors of the main school in the country, we had been entered into the competition because the previous years no gloved sparring had in the words of out master not been technical enough, we were there to show the way,LMAO
What I learned was that sparring without gloves doesn’t prepare you for fighting without gloves, contact sparring prepares you for contact no matter what the context

[sanjuro_ronin]

We all have war stories about what happens when you train bare knuckle.
I have a few minor scars ( than goodness for the boxing back ground before I did Kyokushin) BUT I have vivid images in my mind of far worse.
One guy has his lower lip totally ripped open, you could see his teeth even though his mouth was closed. He needed some serious stitches of course.
Cut eyebrows, cheeks, all very common when bare knuckles hit faces with hard contact.
Busted noses are a given gloved or no gloves so...
But what I noticed the most was the chipped or broken teeth and the cuts ( faces and hands of course).
Also, the level of contact ended up being far less than when you use protective gear.
People just didn't hit that hard in training when they were bare handed.

Then I got into the Daidojuku and the "space helmet" and we thought, "great now we can go full contact and bare handed and NOT have our faces look like crap"
Of course the issue with those helmets is that they are freaking hard ( nothing a good conditioned hand can't take of course" BUT they tended to transfer impact in a weird way AND you ended up slugging unrealistically.

[Jimbo]

Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?

You did, in post #61 of the Ving Tsun Under Pressure thread.

[guy b.]

Of course and I competed internationally too.




So, all this ranting about training bare knuckle and you are saying NOT to train bare knuckle with head shots in Wing Chun ???

Read anerlichs post. It explains my position relatively well

[guy b.]

You did, in post #61 of the Ving Tsun Under Pressure thread.

You are lying. Quote me please

[guy b.]

We all have war stories about what happens when you train bare knuckle.
I have a few minor scars ( than goodness for the boxing back ground before I did Kyokushin) BUT I have vivid images in my mind of far worse.
One guy has his lower lip totally ripped open, you could see his teeth even though his mouth was closed. He needed some serious stitches of course.
Cut eyebrows, cheeks, all very common when bare knuckles hit faces with hard contact.
Busted noses are a given gloved or no gloves so...
But what I noticed the most was the chipped or broken teeth and the cuts ( faces and hands of course).
Also, the level of contact ended up being far less than when you use protective gear.
People just didn't hit that hard in training when they were bare handed.

Then I got into the Daidojuku and the "space helmet" and we thought, "great now we can go full contact and bare handed and NOT have our faces look like crap"
Of course the issue with those helmets is that they are freaking hard ( nothing a good conditioned hand can't take of course" BUT they tended to transfer impact in a weird way AND you ended up slugging unrealistically.

The helmets are worse than gloves for targetting problems and defence/movement problems. Also as you say they encourage very unrealistic puching and can be seriously bad for your health with regards to head trauma.

Level of unrestrained contact is less bare handed because if not you will break your hands. It is possible to throw hard if you throw accurately, but for that you need a different platform than what gloved sparring gives you. Interesting and good to know. Movement and targetting very different. Hitting style has to be different if you want to win.

[guy b.]

What he said, if you spar without gloves only one of three things happens

1) People stop training at the club because risk isn’t worth reward
2) You cut out headshots because it hurts and is too dangerous, so you end up with unrealistic body shot only training
3) You become gun shy as people hold back as they don’t want to get hit hard in return so you end up with those slap happy sparring clips like jerrys and the vast majority of southern hand clips we see out there with unrealistic techniques and bad body positions

What's realistic about throwing punches as if you are wearing gloves and immediately breaking your fragile glassy little hands on someone's head? That is the opposite of realistic and the opposite of useful training.

Ramping contact level without gloves is far more realistic in terms of the actual activity you are training for- i.e. fighting without gloves. Unless you plan to wear gloves 24/7. Specificity is important in athletic training. Fighting is no different.


What I learned was that sparring without gloves doesn’t prepare you for fighting without gloves, contact sparring prepares you for contact no matter what the context

It is the fault of nobody but you if you were too soft to ramp the level of contact appropriately. Training with gloves only teaches you to miss and have poor timing without gloves. It also virtually grarantees broken hands. Broken hands lose fights.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are lying. Quote me please

Here you go:

08-11-2015, 12:34 PM #61 guy b. guy b. is offline
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Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
Let's see your bare handed training then. I'm interested in how hard you're getting punched in the face with bare knuckles...
Full contact

LFJ asked:

I'm interested in how hard you're getting punched in the face with bare knuckles...

You replied:

Full contact

[JPinAZ]

Correct. Glad someone is able to see reason
..........I disagree, because bare knuckle is intrinsically different to gloved and it pays to be familiar with it since it is what you will be doing in an actual fight. ?

Is this based on your personal experience or an assumption from what others do? how often do you train and spar without gloves at full contact?

What I see/hear is you posting clips of others and asking what others do, but what do you do? (cause you seem to bounce around a lot on that part)
If want people to 'see reason', and if you are sparring regularly without gloves as you imply (and apparently at full contact), it would only be reasonable to ask you to film your next training session and show what you mean vs. posting up clips or others and trying to go off of what everyone else does.... shouldn't be too difficult or unreasonable for you ;)

Otherwise you're not really saying much imo

[guy b.]

Here you go:


LFJ asked:


You replied:

the quote Jimbo was responding to was this:


Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?

His answer (and your defense of it) are non sequiurs in relation to the question.

Contact level is full contact. Ok. How does this relate to the question of who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots? It doesn't. In any way. There is zero mention of frequency of that intensity of training.

[guy b.]

Is this based on your personal experience or an assumption from what others do? how often do you train and spar without gloves at full contact?

It is based on personal experience and the experience of others I train with.

I spar without gloves at full contact as often as I can manage, which is about once per fortnight at the moment. I have done more and I have done less. Obviously I train reduced intensity much more frequently.

[JPinAZ]

It is based on personal experience and the experience of others I train with.

I spar without gloves at full contact as often as I can manage, which is about once per fortnight at the moment. I have done more and I have done less. Obviously I train reduced intensity much more frequently.

So what you're saying is, you get into actual bare-knuckle all-out fist fights with your training partners every 'fortnight'. Heh, ok.

Then I'll repeat (Since you somehow missed a good portion of my post in your reply)
"If want people to 'see reason', and if you are sparring regularly without gloves as you imply (and apparently at full contact), it would only be reasonable to ask you to film your next training session and show what you mean vs. posting up clips or others and trying to go off of what everyone else does.... shouldn't be too difficult or unreasonable for you

Otherwise you're not really saying much imo"

[guy b.]

So what you're saying is, you get into actual bare-knuckle all-out fist fights with your training partners every 'fortnight'.

Yes of course. What is difficult to understand about this fact?


Then I'll repeat it would only be reasonable to ask you to film your next training session

Why?

[LFJ]

Any videos, website, or further information from your club, guy?

[Happy Tiger]

The last time I got involved with bare knuckle fighting was up north BC(2012). It is not uncommon to test mettle and solve small disputes with honest fist fighting that rarely goes too far. In fact,more than a couple of buds carry a mouth guard at all times for just such occasions. It can be invigorating even at my age, and I can't get any uglier. I'm not really talking about bar fights either. That's how they roll in northern Canada.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the quote Jimbo was responding to was this:



His answer (and your defense of it) are non sequiurs in relation to the question.

Contact level is full contact. Ok. How does this relate to the question of who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots? It doesn't. In any way. There is zero mention of frequency of that intensity of training.

First off, it was not "non-sequitur" because you were asked a direct question by LFJ:

Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
Let's see your bare handed training then. I'm interested in how hard you're getting punched in the face with bare knuckles...

To which you replied directly:


Full contact

So.

But what we are finally getting to is this:
You occasionally ( fortnight by your own words) train bare knuckle sparring that may or may not include face shots.

Is this accurate?

[David Jamieson]

fooking pikies. :p

[guy b.]

You fortnightly train bare knuckle sparring that may or may not include face shots

I fortnightly train bare knuckle including face shots. I train reduced contact bare knuckle much more frequently. I rarely train with gloves any more because it is detrimental.

[Happy Tiger]

I don't think my body could handle regular NHB contact. What has worked for me is getting involving periodically, when I'm in best health, disposition, no injuries etc, willing to put in the hard attribute traning necessary to come out reasonably safe.. Plus had the time to fully internalize what Iessons learned from the last time. Usually these periods are between 5 and ten years apart.Fortune provides opportunities when the time is right. I often work in security, so occasionally (rarely) physical combat is required but VT is not really part of that tool box much.Except for reference and elbow control. Can't go ' chuning people in the mall.:)

[guy b.]

I don't think my body could handle regular NHB contact

Training without gloves needn't be no rules. On the contrary it is usually very structured.

Reagrding your body, gloved sparring is generally harder on the body than non-gloved, apart from cuts

[Happy Tiger]

Training without gloves needn't be no rules. On the contrary it is usually very structured.

Reagrding your body, gloved sparring is generally harder on the body than non-gloved, apart from cuts
You are absolutely right Guy.During the hard road to full NHB if you don't 'salt your chin', you won't show your best when it counts.

[JPinAZ]

Yes of course. What is difficult to understand about this fact?

Ok, let me ask, where do you train and who is it that you are getting into fights with on a bi-weekly basis?


Why?

Either you are really stupid or you really are just a troll - I posted the reason for asking about video twice now when I asked, I'm not going to repeat myself again.
Funny, you cherry picked my post when quoting me and didn't include any of that part that's answers your stupid 'why' question. So it's pretty clear at this point that you're just being an a55 and playing games to avoid simply answering the question or having to actually prove anything you're going on about..

[guy b.]

Ok, let me ask, where do you train and who is it that you are getting into fights with on a bi-weekly basis?

I train in the UK with some like minded people.


Either you are really stupid or you really are just a troll - I posted the reason for asking about video twice now when I asked, I'm not going to repeat myself again.
Funny, you cherry picked my post when quoting me and didn't include any of that part that's answers your stupid 'why' question. So it's pretty clear at this point that you're just being an a55 and playing games to avoid simply answering the question or having to actually prove anything you're going on about..

I'm not aware of many other people who have posted videos of their real training on here. Mostly at best there is some form, some drill, some chi sau. Or there is nothing. I have good reason not to post further images of myself here.

It is a discussion forum, learn to live with it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence.

[Frost]

Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence.

umm he wont tell us his name, he wont post any details, and the only teacher he has claimed to be linked with has actually taken the time to say this is uncorrect via another student of his, does anyone really think we are going to get anything concrete from this troll?

[guy b.]

umm he wont tell us his name, he wont post any details, and the only teacher he has claimed to be linked with has actually taken the time to say this is uncorrect via another student of his, does anyone really think we are going to get anything concrete from this troll?

Jerry and Mark aren't sure who I am but I have definately trained with them. They would like to dissociate themselves from my postings on this forum for reasons that are obvious. That's ok, I don't train with them now and don't claim to represent them.

[guy b.]

Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like. We aren't proposing a scientific hypothesis or arguing in a court of law here.

[JPinAZ]

Jerry and Mark aren't sure who I am but I have definately trained with them. They would like to dissociate themselves from my postings on this forum for reasons that are obvious.

Reasons that are becoming obvious to everyone.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are welcome to believe whatever you like. We aren't proposing a scientific hypothesis or arguing in a court of law here.

Actually I have no issues in believing that you do occasional full contact bare knuckle fighting, lots of people do.
I just find it hard to believe that IF you do this that you still believe it is the best way to train, that hold back hitting to the head and face with a bareknuckle closed fist is better than hitting full force to the fact with protective gear.
Your point about conditioned hands is not relevant because you don't have to fight bare knuckle to condition the hands, that is what conditioning and forging exercises are for.
I agree that some form of bare knuckle full contact fighting is crucial in TESTING your MA but do NOT agree that it is a good way to train.
The empirical evidence ( early days of the UFC, Vale Tudo and so forth) are on my side by the way.
The most efficient and effective method of training is full contact protected sparring combined full contact protected fighting with the occasional full contact bare knuckle testing.
I would add to that, of course, weapons conditioning (limbs, hands and feet).

[boxerbilly]

It sure is nice to be young and strong. I miss it.

[GlennR]

You are welcome to believe whatever you like. We aren't proposing a scientific hypothesis or arguing in a court of law here.

Are you still going on about your "bare knuckle skilz"???

No one believes you...........

[guy b.]

Are you still going on about your "bare knuckle skilz"???

No one believes you

Both irrelevant and factually incorrect


I have no issues in believing that you do occasional full contact bare knuckle fighting, lots of people do.