Hard to Soft

[BriFu]

Hi,

This is my very first post!

So I am very very interested in any special training or insight that would allow someone to transition well from one style to another.

I had taken Tae Kwon Do, Kempo (which were seemingly a 'hard' style, shorter punch travel) and NOW I am training in Northern style kung fu which have MUCH longer, fluid movements.

Right or wrong I had been punching with a lot of body tension at times thru the years with my early studies. Now I really want to have the 'weight on the end of a rope' and 'snap of a whip' feeling to all my strikes - but it somehow confounds me and I mentally revert to too much energy wasting body tension - right through the strike.

It's been 3 years now with Northern Mantis and I know I have made some progress but I want to do some deliberate training to improve this aspect.

Thoughts? Experiences?

Regards,

Brian

[boxerbilly]

Hi Brian. I can't help you so just saying hello.

[MightyB]

Hi,

This is my very first post!

So I am very very interested in any special training or insight that would allow someone to transition well from one style to another.

I had taken Tae Kwon Do, Kempo (which were seemingly a 'hard' style, shorter punch travel) and NOW I am training in Northern style kung fu which have MUCH longer, fluid movements.

Right or wrong I had been punching with a lot of body tension at times thru the years with my early studies. Now I really want to have the 'weight on the end of a rope' and 'snap of a whip' feeling to all my strikes - but it somehow confounds me and I mentally revert to too much energy wasting body tension - right through the strike.

It's been 3 years now with Northern Mantis and I know I have made some progress but I want to do some deliberate training to improve this aspect.

Thoughts? Experiences?

Regards,

Brian

Hi Brian, most of the "fluidity" and snap comes from a coordination between the hands, footwork, and waist (hips actually). Really the best way to train for this is (ominous sounds) - through stance training !!! :eek: I know it seems outdated, but you have to get used to holding your stances (not just horse) because - leg strength is the first key to giving yourself the opportunity to move the hips and waist properly.

The next phase is to learn how hip movement feels and a good way to do that is to get into your fighting stance, relax your arms, and then swing them in a loose running fashion reaching out and extending your forward arm as it rotates to the forward position. As your right hand extends, extend your right hip with it, and vice versa with the left. Exaggerate the movement so you get used to that feeling as your pelvis rotates. Switch between a left foot forward stance, and a right foot forward stance. I can't emphasize enough that you need to learn how that rotation feels.

The next phase is by practicing your forms. First off - SLOW DOWN - don't rush through your form. Start to apply what you learned above meaning, as your right hand extends in a movement, relax and let your hip rotate and extend with it. Same with the left. Do your forms slowly as you learn how to coordinate your hands and footwork with your pelvis rotation. Don't add speed until after you've master this coordination aspect.

A good tool to measure your progress is a video camera. Record yourself doing the form right now. Then after a month or so of doing the above, record yourself again to see and celebrate your progress.

Good luck.

[No_Know]

Take a rigid plastic cup [because glass can break if it hits something the right /wrong way] (a yielding cup can be a challenge to hold as force changes as you move it in your grip), put water in it (water cleans up more nicely if there's a spill). Move/swing your arm from the elbow or the shoulder to make a circle where the cup goes bottom-side-up and up-side-down.

Whip use of force seems to involve transition too. Hard to soft? More at rigid to yielding. Relating to whip power is speed [This might seem weird since you think what you were doing dealt with fast]. Tension to deliver Power. Tension to conduct strength faster because the muscle is closer. I can see this. But when startled we go full body tense and are very still. Close muscles act as plate mail and shield our underneaths some. To punch with Power and move fast seems to actually be Hard and S oft. But Tension all the time approach can be draining and leaves your muscles looser than before. thus less responsive after a while because they are stretched when forced long while tense.

I's not soft so much as deliberate momentary transitioning tension. From a firm-Stable base as Mighty B mentioned with stance, shift like a Tsunami and the rocks falling into the ocean. Still motion still begins the force wave. Through your articulations/joints direct the wave-transferring it from section to section (each section releasing the tension passing it along. Pushing it with each successful directing out to your fist and Power like the water in the cup forced to the end of the movement. Fast, with movement that does not falter or get in its own way or stop the water stays in the cup (at 75%-85% or less full).

Greater understanding is perhaps gained from correct movement. The practice/training...the Look is select movements that allow continued movement with low to no spilling. If you get wet, then there's a better way to move a different direction to guide a different balance of tension transfer.

Circle-ish, figure eight, infinity symbol, rounded curving movements might give an indication of "weight at the end of a rope."

No_Know

[-N-]

I had taken Tae Kwon Do, Kempo (which were seemingly a 'hard' style, shorter punch travel) and NOW I am training in Northern style kung fu which have MUCH longer, fluid movements.

[...]

It's been 3 years now with Northern Mantis and I know I have made some progress but I want to do some deliberate training to improve this aspect.


I started in Kenpo in 1970, did TKD for a while starting in 1980, then switched to Mantis in '85.

Make a point to work on relaxed range of motion whether you are doing drills, forms, or sparring.

Use your body awareness and recognize what you are doing when your teacher corrects you about being too tense or rigid. Then remember how to let go of that tension when you train.

Don't try too soon to be fast or powerful. The natural tendency will be to use tense isolated biomechanics. That will get you some results, but not as much as if you train for relaxed, coordinated, explosive power.

Praying Mantis needs the relaxation so you can use the body's natural recoil actions to make combinations and to attack and evade. This includes the footwork and kicking. Tense muscles can't capitalize on the recoiling energy and just slows you down.

In sparring, everybody knows to exert force when they connect. Some people know to be cognizant of exerting muscle force too early. Fewer people know to focus on the speed at which they can relax or empty out their tension after connecting.

A lot of times I tell students, "Don't worry about hitting fast. Focus on relaxing fast."

[mickey]

Greetings Brian. Welcome to the forum.

When you go from one style to another there will always be some kind of residual carryover. Don't worry so much about that. What you can do is integrate some of the better aspects of it.

Though Mantis men are known for their deadly hand techniques, their kicks were feared: hand techniques with concurrent leg devastations to the shin, knee, groin, instep. This approach seems to be on the wane in the USA. You can bring that emphasis back.

One way to actually relax IS to train speed. To get faster you will have to relax. Develop a few movement and striking drills for yourself and work them. Another way is to do bag work. You can develop explosive striking with it; and, again, that explosiveness comes from a relaxed state.

If you have studied TKD for a while, you should already have that relaxed state ability. The aforementioned should help you recognize that.

There is not much for you to throw away.

mickey

[boxerbilly]

Guys what is the characteristics of Northern Mantis ? Is it a art that prefer longer range ? I know Chow Gar likes to stay close and in some ways resembles some Okinawan arts right down to the tension sets and techniques and body conditioning.

My understanding is Northern and Southern Mantis do not share a common linage. Just similar name ?

[-N-]

Guys what is the characteristics of Northern Mantis ? Is it a art that prefer longer range ?

Footwork and mobility that can close quickly from outside the kicking range, all the way to short range kao da body striking and takedowns.


My understanding is Northern and Southern Mantis do not share a common linage. Just similar name ?

That's my understanding.

[boxerbilly]

Footwork and mobility that can close quickly from outside the kicking range, all the way to short range kao da body striking and takedowns.



That's my understanding.

Thank you.

[BriFu]

Hi Brian, most of the "fluidity" and snap comes from a coordination between the hands, footwork, and waist (hips actually). Really the best way to train for this is (ominous sounds) - through stance training.......
Good luck.



Take a rigid plastic cup [because glass can break if it hits something the right /wrong way] (a yielding cup can be a challenge to hold as force changes as you move it in your grip), put water in it (water cleans up more nicely if there's a spill). Move/swing your arm from the elbow or the shoulder to make a circle where the cup goes bottom-side-up and up-side-down.......



I started in Kenpo in 1970, did TKD for a while starting in 1980, then switched to Mantis in '85.
Make a point to work on relaxed range of motion whether you are doing drills, forms, or sparring.
Use your body awareness......

Wow.... I like the kinds of answers I've gotten on this. I'll be experimenting and will be strongly considering all of these. Additionally I'm enjoying that there are each unique perspectives on this. Stay tuned and thanks!

Brian

[bawang]

explosive pushups will develop the fluid snap in your arms. lack of fluidity in arms is due to weak front delts and triceps


lack of fluidity in the legs is due to weak hamstring glute. you need to do kettlebell swings and hamstring curls

if you are interested reply with your age and state of physical fitness and i will give you a training plan which should fix your problem in 3 weeks

[mickey]

Greetings,


explosive pushups will develop the fluid snap in your arms. lack of fluidity in arms is due to weak front delts and triceps


This is only partially true. Speed also requires strong biceps, rear deltoid muscles (actually the full deltoid) and well as forearm development from hammer curls. Bag work develops these areas, along with the muscles you mentioned in a balanced way. If the OP does not have the strength to begin with, a strength training program would be necessary.


mickey

[boxerbilly]

explosive pushups will develop the fluid snap in your arms. lack of fluidity in arms is due to weak front delts and triceps


lack of fluidity in the legs is due to weak hamstring glute. you need to do kettlebell swings and hamstring curls

if you are interested reply with your age and state of physical fitness and i will give you a training plan which should fix your problem in 3 weeks


Bawang, I'll take you up on your offer to send me a plan. Would love to know your input on it. I'll pm you my info.

[bawang]

Bawang, I'll take you up on your offer to send me a plan. Would love to know your input on it. I'll pm you my info.

ok boxerbilly at your age you are very prone to injury. how long has it been since u actually performed pushups or worked out, and how many reps can u do maximum

secondly do you understand how to do abdominal bracing for weight lifting

[boxerbilly]

ok boxerbilly at your age you are very prone to injury. how long has it been since u actually performed pushups or worked out, and how many reps can u do maximum

secondly do you understand how to do abdominal bracing for weight lifting

Actually push ups are not a part of my routine at present. The most I ever did in a single set was high 70's and I do not recall the exact amount. Normally I worked them in sets of 20-30 and total reps of around 200-300 every couple of days at least. I tried those totals everyday but it was just to exhausting with all the other stuff I did.

No, I am unsure what you mean by abdominal bracing. It was nothing I consciously worried about when I could lift. I posted my weight and rep maxs long ago. I was never what I consider very strong. I had okay strength to reps for my size. Better than most but when you look at what NFL guys do with similar weight, Im not even in the ball park, LOL. Those guys are STRONG !

Feel free to contact me by email if you choose. About anything you can share or want to discuss. No worries either way.

Thank you.

[bawang]

tradtional northern kung fu training is explosive knuckle pushups every day and increase 1 rep a day. it will give you snappy mantis punch after 3 weeks

[MarathonTmatt]

tradtional northern kung fu training is explosive knuckle pushups every day and increase 1 rep a day. it will give you snappy mantis punch after 3 weeks

I love explosive knuckle push ups. another favorite is push ups on the back of the wrist. combine this with other kinds of push ups, snake turnover drills and different punching drills and it is very good exercise/ training. a trick i did when i started, for punching was i rolled long sleeves from shirt i wore around my fist for some extra resistence. this seemed to work well and made my punches more snappy.

[-N-]

tradtional northern kung fu training is explosive knuckle pushups every day and increase 1 rep a day. it will give you snappy mantis punch after 3 weeks

This can give you a feeling for the snap.

Extend that to include waist/hip/footwork snap when you attack.

Otherwise it will be only arm punch, and not full body coordination.

You don't want to be one of those fast but no power type Mantis guys.

[boxerbilly]

Well, I am going to do what Bawang suggested for 3 weeks. I already got yelled at for not doing exactly as he said, so I better do as he said.

My performance and reps SUCK. I am sure much improved in 3 weeks as he suggested.

[BriFu]

Take a rigid plastic cup [because glass can break if it hits something the right /wrong way] (a yielding cup can be a challenge to hold as force changes as you move it in your grip), put water in it (water cleans up more nicely if there's a spill). Move/swing your arm from the elbow or the shoulder to make a circle where the cup goes bottom-side-up and up-side-down....

....Circle-ish, figure eight, infinity symbol, rounded curving movements might give an indication of "weight at the end of a rope."

No_Know

Can you elaborate on this? So far I am understanding that a light grip to simply keep the cup upright is part of it.

I found this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMhqs0UNi0s

Start around 8:30

This is sort of what I thought you were driving at.
Thoughts?