WC Teachers- You have 3 months

[boxerbilly]

To train a guy with zero experience to enter a full contact feet and hands only competition. Drawing only from traditional WC as you were taught, how would you do it ? What would you focus on ? What would you drop ? Think about it because if you teach your guy **** that can not be used in 3 months, he is going to potentially get hurt. But call it amature and good reffing should anyone run into overwhelmed issues or looks like you are just outmatched and we end it to prevent serious injury. Paired up against a guy of similar time in say kick boxing. Or as below. A student with many years in.

When I was in California, I found an Isshin Ryu community. The teacher and student decided they knew what to do to enter a full contact kickboxing match. I was maybe 20 at the time and 2 years out of boxing. I offered to show the guy some boxing and ring work. He laughed and said he knew what he was doing. Went to Vegas for the fight. it was a pro fight and he never did anything but tag sparring. He got knocked out in the first round. In fact they had trouble bringing him back around. For a bit I was told they believed he was going to die. He ended up with brain damage. Thankfully not bad enough to cause disability. But that ended any nonsense he believed. Now, I probably could not have prevented that even if I showed him what little I knew but he was not ready in any way, shape or form and I KNEW THAT ! And he had 4 or more years in the art.

[anerlich]

Three months is not enough. Even Ng Mui spent a year with Yim Wing Chun.

I would try to teach them to hit hard with straight punches, a push kick, low round leg kick (assuming side kick to the knee is illegal). I would teach more of a close range boxing and peekaboo style defence rather than mucking around with wing chun hands and chi sao. Not Wing Chun? I don't care and it's an artificial situation anyway.

Despite the opinions of certain forum luminaries, I would get them to train with gloves for this fight.

And I would expect them to lose and urge them to call it off. Not enough time.

[JPinAZ]

Agreed with what Andrew said above - in both approach and that it's not enough time.
It's an unrealistic question and timeframe

[boxerbilly]

Three months is not enough. Even Ng Mui spent a year with Yim Wing Chun.

I would try to teach them to hit hard with straight punches, a push kick, low round leg kick (assuming side kick to the knee is illegal). I would teach more of a close range boxing and peekaboo style defence rather than mucking around with wing chun hands and chi sao. Not Wing Chun? I don't care and it's an artificial situation anyway.

Despite the opinions of certain forum luminaries, I would get them to train with gloves for this fight.

And I would expect them to lose and urge them to call it off. Not enough time.

So, you believe 3 months is not enough time to teach wing chun for full contact I believe. So, like the guy that got hurt, you have a student of 4 years. But low and behold you have 3 months to get him ready for full contact. His skills should be much greater. What do you keep , add or delete ?

[Jimbo]

Billy, a big thing IMO would be to bring in an experienced kickboxer or two, have them gear up and really spar. Regardless of which art he's from, the student will not really know what he's getting into until he's faced experienced full-contact fighters in training. Sure, he might watch some kickboxing or Muay Thai on TV and think he can handle them in their environment, but unless he's trained and conditioned for it, it's pretty much an unrealistic and even impossible scenario.

[boxerbilly]

Agreed with what Andrew said above - in both approach and that it's not enough time.
It's an unrealistic question and timeframe


Well, I believe I asked about a student of 4 years as well. Does he have enough time in to get ready in 3 months if you trained him? That goes for any WC teacher that wants to comment.

[JPinAZ]

Well, I believe I asked about a student of 4 years as well. Does he have enough time in to get ready in 3 months if you trained him? That goes for any WC teacher that wants to comment.

Uh yeah... that was after I replied. I hope you're not implying I should now be using the H.Santos time machine here.. :rolleyes:
But to further the discussion..


So, you believe 3 months is not enough time to teach wing chun for full contact I believe. So, like the guy that got hurt, you have a student of 4 years. But low and behold you have 3 months to get him ready for full contact. His skills should be much greater. What do you keep , add or delete ?

First, I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the 'guy that got hurt'.

Second, I don't see why you would need to keep or delete anything. Yeah, some things aren't going to be focused on if they are disallowed by the rules or certain gear they may need to wear, but you don't 'delete' anything - it's pretty hard to 'unlearn' something. But if someone has been training regularly and diligently under a good teacher with good quality partners for 4 years, they should have a lot of what they need already. If they don't then they have been getting robbed.

Now, if they haven't been training specifically for competition or a given rule-set, then the focus for the next 3 months should be drilling, conditioning and various levels of sparring against good quality opponents similar to what they may be facing. All with the main focus of being ready to compete within whatever rules and possible gear they are going to be competing under. It's not rocket science.

[boxerbilly]

Guys, I appreciate the replies. Jimbo. Great answer !!!!!

Do not tell me it can not be done. I know it can be done. Can you guys do it ? I bet Alan Orr could. That time frame may not be ideal. But it was the **** time frame. Don't enter I guess . This is the SPORT side. Lets, see we can take wrestlers and football payers with no experience and have them playing in 3 months. Some will even win against guys with more time in. Why is WC any different ?

Don't tell me it can't be done- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nejg4TPv-e8 - just add kicks.

[boxerbilly]

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1286848]Uh yeah... that was after I replied. I hope you're not implying I should now be using the H.Santos time machine here.. :rolleyes:
But to further the discussion..



First, I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the 'guy that got hurt'.

QUOTE]
When I was in California, I found an Isshin Ryu community. The teacher and student decided they knew what to do to enter a full contact kickboxing match. I was maybe 20 at the time and 2 years out of boxing. I offered to show the guy some boxing and ring work. He laughed and said he knew what he was doing. Went to Vegas for the fight. it was a pro fight and he never did anything but tag sparring. He got knocked out in the first round. In fact they had trouble bringing him back around. For a bit I was told they believed he was going to die. He ended up with brain damage. Thankfully not bad enough to cause disability. But that ended any nonsense he believed. Now, I probably could not have prevented that even if I showed him what little I knew but he was not ready in any way, shape or form and I KNEW THAT ! And he had 4 or more years in the art. "

[sanjuro_ronin]

3 Months is 90 days.
I assume you choose that period because that is what pro fighters typically use to get in "fight shape".

Of course it all depends on prior skill and so forth BUT starting with a complete noob with NO prior fighting experience at all...

You can get ANYONE in fighting shape in 3 months.
To what DEGREE they are competent depends on the person.

They would have to follow at least a 5 day protocol for the bulk of it ( 6 if that can handle it), something like 3 X a week the first week, 4X the next and 5X the next.

Focus will be spent on drills and sparring with a gradual increase in intensity up to full contact at least 3 weeks before the competition ( light sparring and drills the week of).

In short, you would do specialized training with concrete and defined SHORT TERM goals.

[boxerbilly]

sanjuro_ronin ,

No. I figured it was a nice short time frame. I have seen plenty of guys start boxing and doing it 90 days later. For certain they are not champs. I myself was similar. I believe most in my area were like that back then too.

I believe WC should be able to do that like wrestling, boxing, football, or any sport. I know there are some that could do it. Get a beginner capable in 3 months for that.

Great reply.

Edit, also I think I mentioned . Against a guy with similar time doing it. Not exceeding 3 months what the new guy has trained. Obviously he would not be ready for someone highly skilled. I am not talking mismatches even though that happens a lot in all sorts of endeavors. So basically using ones WC for kickboxing.
I tried to point out things I saw in WC that may be moves not generally seen in WC in another thread. . Maybe I am stretching with that stuff. But why not if you can make the connection ?

Also, I mentioned good refs. Breaking dangerous stuff up fast. And that is EXACTELY what I saw with Phils student. Good ref. Now, for beginners I may suggest a bit heavier gloves and head gear. Id insist on it. I know that can potentially weaken WC straight punches if you guys don't torque the waist but I was talking safe as possible but still heavy contact.

[GlennR]

To train a guy with zero experience to enter a full contact feet and hands only competition. Drawing only from traditional WC as you were taught, how would you do it ? What would you focus on ? What would you drop ? Think about it because if you teach your guy **** that can not be used in 3 months, he is going to potentially get hurt. But call it amature and good reffing should anyone run into overwhelmed issues or looks like you are just outmatched and we end it to prevent serious injury. Paired up against a guy of similar time in say kick boxing. Or as below. A student with many years in.

When I was in California, I found an Isshin Ryu community. The teacher and student decided they knew what to do to enter a full contact kickboxing match. I was maybe 20 at the time and 2 years out of boxing. I offered to show the guy some boxing and ring work. He laughed and said he knew what he was doing. Went to Vegas for the fight. it was a pro fight and he never did anything but tag sparring. He got knocked out in the first round. In fact they had trouble bringing him back around. For a bit I was told they believed he was going to die. He ended up with brain damage. Thankfully not bad enough to cause disability. But that ended any nonsense he believed. Now, I probably could not have prevented that even if I showed him what little I knew but he was not ready in any way, shape or form and I KNEW THAT ! And he had 4 or more years in the art.

Yes, you could do it.
But the trick is to keep it simple. In the early stages of competition its fitness that tends to win most fights.

Id be doing road work most morning mixed with a sprint session or two a week (mornings if he can), 5-6 evening sessions a week starting with fundamentals and pick out what he does best..... pretty much what Andrew said.
A jab, solid cross and a good front kick will win most fights at this level

[anerlich]

I guess it all depends what the opponent is going to be like.

If it's another guy that's only trained 3 months, then he's basically fighting a carbon copy of himself so it shouldn't much matter. If it's a guy that's been training for five years who has a number of ring fights under his belt, then I'm definitely betting on the other guy, though I doubt I'd get anyone to take the bet.

There are white belt matches in BJJ. I personally would want to see a guy put in six months before competing, though if he was keen and reasonably competent after three months I wouldn't stop him. You need at least a couple of months before anything starts to make sense anyway. Some schools don't even let students roll for three months until they have an understanding of basic techniques.

At the lower levels, it very often comes down to superior attributes and conditioning. Someone coming from a rugby background, for example, can often do very well at the lower levels due to their conditioning and familiarity with contact sport.

I tell anyone competing for the first time to just do it for the experience, don't worry about winning or losing. If they win, great. But most do not first time out. Martial arts are about learning and self discovery, and you learn much more from losses than wins.

I didn't see any mention of the four years either. If I had a four year guy with three months to go, I'd get him working hard on his conditioning and get some experienced ring fighters to work with him, as coaches and sparmates. To be honest, I'd subcontract or send him to someone else as there are lots of people way better than me out there at fight preparation, some of whom for me are friends, and they aren't difficult to find in a large city.

My focus as an instructor is on the beginners and average joes, getting them interested in a martial art that they can use to move towards athleticism and a healthy lifestyle, metal/emotional/physical/spiritual. Lighting that spark inside someone is what gives me satisfaction. Once they're self-motivated and understand basic concepts, helping them learn more technique is comparatively easy.

[LFJ]

Month 1: Snake Engine
Month 2: Snake Slide
Month 3: Snake Bite

[boxerbilly]

I knew you guys would get it. My fault. I am not always clear in my explanations. Writing is a second language to me.

I know you guys could do it. Phil Redmond is doing it. I know you guys could show up and do well in contact. YOU KNOW IT ! Then we would see a lot more WC holding there own across the board. It does not have to be 3 month. If you believe you could take the 1/2 your new guys to a competing level in 6 then that is great too. I think more of you should do it. Seek guidance outside of WC if you need to so that you really understand what should be worked. Go to Phil. Say, "Phil what should I do man". I want my guys to have a chance of winning. How can I get there in 6 months with them."
That's of main importance. if you really do not know, don't assume you can do it. Find the help and one day you will know how to do it. But, I know some of you can do it today if you wanted to start.

Wing Chun can work as a sport. Phil has been proving it. And anytime their are rules. It is SPORT.

[boxerbilly]

In this case they say karate and kickboxing. Notice how everyone looks sloppy more than not ? This happens more so when you are no longer sparring you own art. Some may believe it is because those guys are beginners or just not very good, etc. You may be right but you would probably be wrong more than not. They are having trouble using their stuff against another art that us able to use their stuff. Look much better if it was just TKD vs TKD.
Or, WC vs. WC .

In my opinion these Wing Chun guys are doing good against other arts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERdWPBI6MH4

[guy b.]

Wing Chun can work as a sport. Phil has been proving it. And anytime their are rules. It is SPORT.

Wing chun is complete and utter S.H.I.T as a ring sport. If you must fight in the ring then there are only a few options. Either you change wing chun until it no longer resembles wing chun (Alan Orr), you fight at very low level (Phil Redmond), you lose (most likely outcome), or you don't do it (everyone else).

Wing chun is not a ring sport. It is not designed as a ring sport. It doesn't function well as a ring sport. Why would you ever want to be in a ring fighting with wing chun? Wrong tool wrong job.

[JPinAZ]

I'm sure Phil and his guys would disagree with you.
To be fair - unless you're going to show how you would do it better (which you are not willing to do), why not cut out bashing of people that are not even part of the discussion and of which you know nothing about, eh?

[guy b.]

I'm sure Phil and his guys would disagree with you.
To be fair - unless you're going to show how you would do it better (which you are not willing to do), why not cut out bashing of people that are not even part of the discussion and of which you know nothing about, eh?

I'm sure they will get over it, or not even care.

The only reason I mention these people is that they are used in yet another thread against normal traditional wing chun training. I do happen to think that what all of the people mentioned do is not of benefit to wing chun. But that is only my opinion and what they do is their business.

There is never any discussion anywhere about actual wing chun. Always it is about adapting wing chun for the ring, where wing chun is weak, how to change wing chun to make it better, how various peoples are rejecting traditional wing chun and making it different/better, how great sport training is compared to wing chun training, etc, etc

[boxerbilly]

I'm sure they will get over it, or not even care.

The only reason I mention these people is that they are used in yet another thread against normal traditional wing chun training. I do happen to think that what all of the people mentioned do is not of benefit to wing chun. But that is only my opinion and what they do is their business.

There is never any discussion anywhere about actual wing chun. Always it is about adapting wing chun for the ring, where wing chun is weak, how to change wing chun to make it better, how various peoples are rejecting traditional wing chun and making it different/better, how great sport training is compared to wing chun training, etc, etc

My fault this thread. Yes, us with no WC training try to look at it though our lenses. Try to make sense of it. Most say it is crap. I do not see it that way. I try to find things I believe would work from my point of view. But then, I do not see with your eyes. So I am canabalizing what I could pull off ( possibly) in a way I could us similar motion. Similar is not same. It wont be WC that is for certain. It is not that sport is better or worse a lot of my beliefs were established because of where I grew up and later places I lived before coming back.

I still believe WC can work full contact. I see great potential even with rules. People have proved that so. I have no idea what WC principals may be violated in doing so.

[boxerbilly]

Wing chun is complete and utter S.H.I.T as a ring sport. If you must fight in the ring then there are only a few options. Either you change wing chun until it no longer resembles wing chun (Alan Orr), you fight at very low level (Phil Redmond), you lose (most likely outcome), or you don't do it (everyone else).

Wing chun is not a ring sport. It is not designed as a ring sport. It doesn't function well as a ring sport. Why would you ever want to be in a ring fighting with wing chun? Wrong tool wrong job.

I was impressed by Phil's student.

I have never seen any of Alan's students fight but I am certain they can.

[bawang]

wing chun uses chinese knife principles and is a method for training knife fighting. its not designed to be a complete boxing system

[boxerbilly]

wing chun uses chinese knife principles and is a method for training knife fighting. its not designed to be a complete boxing system

Thanks Bawang. Can any one concur with this ?

There are some that believe modern boxing shares more similarities with Filipino arts than with European. And that is come from the knife. I think the Filipinos contributed a great deal to modern boxing perhaps even more so than European but I think the glove was the primary reason stances, movement and fighting in close become more and more common. Why circular blows began having **** near as much importance as straight hits.

[guy b.]

Thanks Bawang. Can any one concur with this ?

No. The knife set is last taught and (should be) taught only to those who fully understand and can make work the empty hand system. The reason is that fighting with the knives is different to fighting with the hands, and doing knives at the wrong time can wreck your wing chun if you don't have a good grasp of it. This is in stark contrast to pole which should be started as early as possible.

[boxerbilly]

Thank Guy. Prior to our most modern version, say 100 year. Boxing was based around principals of fencing. I forget the guy that was credited with doing that. One may say that is when it became more scientific. It has gone through many changes through the millennium. Probably at times it all but disappeared.
But it was based around the main weapon. The fist. When we began to wear gloves we changed the weapon enough to change the methods I think. It was not that the method based on fencing was no longer functional it was with gloves some things did not work as well any longer. Guys wear willing to come in and slug. Those stiff straights , walking into walls, were not as effective as they would have been bare fisted. Prior, in fighting consisted mainly of standing grappling. There were locks mainly spinal in nature, but the objective was to throw or trip the guy to the ground. Hip throws using the neck/head were common. They also hacked in close. Neck, face, arms. You know, sword hand. Edge
of hand.

The fencing, was probably closer to the sword and dagger methods. Because both hands needed to be employed. Filipino's also have sword and dagger. Generally their swords tended to be shorter. Most believe and I do, they learned it from the Spanish. I just think not completely. And melded it with their native sword arts. Primarily their boxing would have been based around much shorted knives. Not a Bolo. Not that those ways never made it into their fist arts. Generally the shorter knife.

Fencing/boxing gets tossed around from time to time on boxing forums. Most have trouble seeing how it would work. It is because they are looking at the wrong eras of boxing and fencing. They are seeing it through todays eyes. If you ever get a chance to see John Clements book on sword fighting. Not the one on long battle field swords. You may see how many in the previous incarnation of boxing employed both hands. The forearms become the blades. The fist the tip.

[guy b.]

Thank Guy. Prior to our most modern version, say 100 year. Boxing was based around principals of fencing.

I don't know about that. What does it have to do with wing chun?

In wing chun the pole is like the hands but the knives are not, both in terms of principle and application. Why then would you assume the empty hand evolved from the knives? More likely the pole came first and the knives came later.

[boxerbilly]

I don't know about that. What does it have to do with wing chun?

In wing chun the pole is like the hands but the knives are not, both in terms of principle and application. Why then would you assume the empty hand evolved from the knives? More likely the pole came first and the knives came later.


You do know! Nothing. I did not assume. I asked if anyone could back Bawangs belief up. You said no. I went off on a tangent topic. I followed up elsewhere as I realized this is the wrong forum. I could have erased it. But why?

[guy b.]

You do know! Nothing. I did not assume. I asked if anyone could back Bawangs belief up. You said no. I went off on a tangent topic. I followed up elsewhere as I realized this is the wrong forum. I could have erased it. But why?

I don't know about the history of western boxing as it pertains to the fencing methods of the relevant historical period.

I do know about wing chun.

Therefore I am able to answer Bawang's question, which was about wing chun (rather than olde tymes western boxing)

What I am not seeing is what a theory about historical western boxing relating to fencing has to do with wing chun? Or why a person without any knowledge of wing chun is interested in a fairly cranky theory about the weapons of wing chun, but not in a fairly safe theory of same? Can you explain?

[guy b.]

Did you "follow up elsewhere" on the relation of wing chun to historical western boxing and how both were influenced by sword play forum? I haven't seen that one. Sounds like it might be full of people that like to talk a lot.

[boxerbilly]

I don't know about the history of western boxing as it pertains to the fencing methods of the relevant historical period.

I do know about wing chun.

Therefore I am able to answer Bawang's question, which was about wing chun (rather than olde tymes western boxing)

What I am not seeing is what a theory about historical western boxing relating to fencing has to do with wing chun? Or why a person without any knowledge of wing chun is interested in a fairly cranky theory about the weapons of wing chun, but not in a fairly safe theory of same? Can you explain?


Nothing. I could but I see there is no point. I'll let you get back to trashing who's WC you think sucks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A comment on "not enough time":
Here are the facts -
If a person can use a system effectively to defend themselves ( against someone with no training) after 3 months of training then it is a good system.
If they can't it is NOT AS GOOD as a system in which a person can.
Common sense 101.
If a person can use a system to defend themselves effectively against someone with comparable training ( 3 months) then it is a very good system.
If a person can use a system to defend themselves effectively against someone with MORE training than they have then it is a EXCELLENT system.

It really is just that simple.

And before anyone asks to define "effectively" , that too is very simple and every one that has actually fought knows the answer to that one.

[JPinAZ]

Sanjuro, I would agree with that premise! Considering all other factors being equal (starting attributes and aptitude of students being compared are equal)

[guy b.]

A comment on "not enough time":
Here are the facts -
If a person can use a system effectively to defend themselves ( against someone with no training) after 3 months of training then it is a good system.
If they can't it is NOT AS GOOD as a system in which a person can.
Common sense 101.
If a person can use a system to defend themselves effectively against someone with comparable training ( 3 months) then it is a very good system.
If a person can use a system to defend themselves effectively against someone with MORE training than they have then it is a EXCELLENT system.

It really is just that simple.

And before anyone asks to define "effectively" , that too is very simple and every one that has actually fought knows the answer to that one.

I don't know that it is a fact that speed of learning is proportional to total effectiveness. Why would this be the case?

If your definition is correct then wing chun is quite a bad system, because it is quite slow to learn compared to others.

[guy b.]

Nothing. I could but I see there is no point. I'll let you get back to trashing who's WC you think sucks.

I think you are just scared to continue in the direction you were rambling, because you are aware that it is incoherent and that is risky if someone is around to call you on it. Unless you are makling a connection between wing chun and old western boxing then where are you going exactly?

If you can swallow your ego and genuinely want to talk about the weapons of wing chun then I am happy to do so from a position of experience.

[boxerbilly]

I think you are just scared to continue in the direction you were rambling, because you are aware that it is incoherent and that is risky if someone is around to call you on it. Unless you are makling a connection between wing chun and old western boxing then where are you going exactly?

If you can swallow your ego and genuinely want to talk about the weapons of wing chun then I am happy to do so from a position of experience.

Don't worry about Guy. You enjoy what you like . Keep doing it. It is all good. This thread was my fault.

I would love for you to start threads on the weapons of wing chun.

[guy b.]

Don't worry about Guy. You enjoy what you like . Keep doing it. It is all good. This thread was my fault.

I would love for you to start threads on the weapons of wing chun.

A weak response

[boxerbilly]

A weak response

Okay Guy. I believe in contact training. I also think a very small percent can make less contact ways work for them. I believe the scales tip toward contact even at the sacrifice of perfect form and holding to a specific principal. It is not that I do not believe eye jabs and throat hits or side kicks to wont work. It is just highly unlikely you will need them or not find yourself in great trouble if you use them.

But really, this thread is about getting a WC guy ready for full contact in 3 months. That would not be perfect WC anymore than 3 months would create a perfect boxer. Answer was some say yes and some say no.

Probably be my last post in this thread. I really do not want to get in a debate about will WC work with rules. It can. It does. You are wrong!

[guy b.]

Okay Guy. I believe in contact training. I also think a very small percent can make less contact ways work for them. I believe the scales tip toward contact even at the sacrifice of perfect form and holding to a specific principal. It is not that I do not believe eye jabs and throat hits or side kicks to wont work. It is just highly unlikely you will need them or not find yourself in great trouble if you use them.

But really, this thread is about getting a WC guy ready for full contact in 3 months. That would not be perfect WC anymore than 3 months would create a perfect boxer. Answer was some say yes and some say no.

Probably be my last post in this thread. I really do not want to get in a debate about will WC work with rules. It can. It does. You are wrong!


Wing chun would be one of the least optimal ways of preparing for a ring fight with a 3 month time scale because it takes much longer than that to become functional with wing chun. Wing chun is also not a very good choice for ring fighting because of the way it works. You might actually be worse at fighting in a ring after 3 months of wing chun training than you would be without any training.

[boxerbilly]

Wing chun would be one of the least optimal ways of preparing for a ring fight with a 3 month time scale because it takes much longer than that to become functional with wing chun. Wing chun is also not a very good choice for ring fighting because of the way it works. You might actually be worse at fighting in a ring after 3 months of wing chun training than you would be without any training.

I never said it was optimal for that. I did suggest one could possibly adapt and adopt. Those old roof top battles. You think those guys did not ?

[guy b.]

I never said it was optimal for that. I did suggest one could possibly adapt and adopt. Those old roof top battles. You think those guys did not ?

If you wanted to train a person for a ring fight in 3 months then you would not train them in wing chun


What would you drop ?

wing chun

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro, I would agree with that premise! Considering all other factors being equal (starting attributes and aptitude of students being compared are equal)

Of course, we are talking about an average and how, on average, easily a system is "absorbed" by the typical person.
Some people can make ANYTHING work while some people CAN'T make anything work.

EX:
If the typical boxer can defeat an untrained person after 3 months and a typical WC person can't, then boxing as a better system.

[guy b.]

EX:If the typical boxer can defeat an untrained person after 3 months and a typical WC person can't, then boxing as a better system.

Does not follow. Boxing is a quicker system in which to gain proficiency would be a valid conclusion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does not follow. Boxing is a quicker system in which to gain proficiency would be a valid conclusion.

Yes which means that boxing ( as the example and under that context) would be a better system.

[boxerbilly]

Yes which means that boxing ( as the example and under that context) would be a better system.

It does not have to be, if it is. I know there are WC schools that can do the same. Has to be. If I can imagine it, chances are someone is doing it already.

[guy b.]

Yes which means that boxing ( as the example and under that context) would be a better system.

Under a situation where you had to prepare for a ring fight in 3 months from a start of zero experience then yes boxing would be better than wing chun. But in life such situations normally do not exist unless you put yourself into them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It does not have to be, if it is. I know there are WC schools that can do the same. Has to be. If I can imagine it, chances are someone is doing it already.

Correct, it is and always has been about the training.
You train to fight and you get good at fighting very quickly.

[guy b.]

Correct, it is and always has been about the training.
You train to fight and you get good at fighting very quickly.

3 months of wing chun fairly diligently will get you through the first form and onto dan chi and poon sau. You might also start the wall bag, and maybe some pole movements if you are that way inclined. You will not be an effective fighter with this.

Doing it in a different (faster) way will not develop the wing chun body correctly, and so will not be wing chun. It might look like wing chun in that you will be affecting the shape, but the system requires particular work at particular times in order to develop the correct body and actions.

[JPinAZ]

3 months of wing chun fairly diligently will get you through the first form and onto dan chi and poon sau. You might also start the wall bag, and maybe some pole movements if you are that way inclined. You will not be an effective fighter with this.

Agreed, you will not be an effective fighter if you take this route. But then, if you are training someone to fight with WC in a short time period, this is not the way you would do it. For example, there is no reason to be doing pole work if your goal is to train someone to fight in 3 months.


Doing it in a different (faster) way will not develop the wing chun body correctly, and so will not be wing chun. It might look like wing chun in that you will be affecting the shape, but the system requires particular work at particular times in order to develop the correct body and actions.

Not sure what you mean by 'WC bodyl or a 'faster way', but I would disagree. You could very well teach someone the basic ideas of WC Self CL & COG, how to build basic structures with which to punch, bridge on center and use basic 4 gate defenses coupled with lots of drilling, bag work and sparring. 3 months isn't a lot of time, but with the correct focus, you should have similar results to most other arts. It's all in the approach and methodologies.

[wckf92]

For example, there is no reason to be doing pole work if your goal is to train someone to fight in 3 months.

Perhaps he is referring to pole work from the aspect of developing power.

[JPinAZ]

Perhaps he is referring to pole work from the aspect of developing power.

You could be right. But if I only had 3 months to train a newbie, I'd skip that anyway as well as the form work and 'poon sau' he mentioned. There are much more direct ways for developing WC punching power than using a pole and forms/poon sau wouldn't be effective in meeting the goal, as he pointed out.

My contention is that looking at these to do the job is the wrong approach - and surely not the only approach by which he disregards WC's ability to train a fighter quickly altogether.

[boxerbilly]

You could be right. But if I only had 3 months to train a newbie, I'd skip that anyway as well as the form work and 'poon sau' he mentioned. There are much more direct ways for developing WC punching power than using a pole and forms/poon sau wouldn't be effective in meeting the goal, as he pointed out.

My contention is that looking at these to do the job is the wrong approach - and surely not the only approach by which he disregards WC's ability to train a fighter quickly altogether.

JPin, please add your direct methods for developing WC punching power. Thanks.

[guy b.]

Agreed, you will not be an effective fighter if you take this route. But then, if you are training someone to fight with WC in a short time period, this is not the way you would do it. For example, there is no reason to be doing pole work if your goal is to train someone to fight in 3 months.

There is no way to short cut wing chun training because above all it is about developing the body connection, neural connections, timing and force handling to hit hard with the hands while controlling the options of the opponent. The training method as it stands is a work of genius to produce such a thing in such a short time. If you insist on 3 months you will simply be producing a different product- i.e. not wing chun. Why would you wish to short change a student in such a way? Awful problems can result when people follow a poor methodology.



Not sure what you mean by 'WC bodyl or a 'faster way', but I would disagree. You could very well teach someone the basic ideas of WC Self CL & COG, how to build basic structures with which to punch, bridge on center and use basic 4 gate defenses coupled with lots of drilling, bag work and sparring. 3 months isn't a lot of time, but with the correct focus, you should have similar results to most other arts. It's all in the approach and methodologies.

Wing chun body is the power generation, ability to impose control, ability to move correctly, that the method of wing chun produces. I don't think there is any short cut to achieve this. Sure you can achieve something different in 3 months, but not wing chun.

[JPinAZ]

There is no way to short cut wing chun training because above all it is about developing the body connection, neural connections, timing and force handling to hit hard with the hands while controlling the options of the opponent. The training method as it stands is a work of genius to produce such a thing in such a short time. If you insist on 3 months you will simply be producing a different product- i.e. not wing chun. Why would you wish to short change a student in such a way? Awful problems can result when people follow a poor methodology.

Who said I insist or wish to do anything? I'm just discussing the premise of increasing someone's fighting ability from a WC methodology within 3 month (which in case you've forgotten, is what this thread is about lol) Now I agree that is a much different approach vs passing on the system - which seems to be more along the lines you are talking about.

I think you're mixing passing on system knowledge and building fight skill - 2 very different training approaches. WC was designed to develop or improve-upon one's fighting abilities in a short amount of time as possible. They didn't have years to pass on a complete a system to everyone back is was being used for revolutionary purposes, nor did they need to with most people being trained.
It's rediculous to think you can't improve someone's fighting abilities to some degree in 3 months time and still have it 'WC'. I've trained students that have improved a lot in their first 3 months with only a san sau-focused drilling approach. Were they ready for the UFC? Of course not! Were they 'ready for competition' as the thread inquires? Probably not - but then that wasn't the focus either and we were only training 2 hours a day, 2-3 times a week. And then I have other students that take much longer to show improvement. But the ones that do improve quickly very much demonstrate improved wing chun abilities in that time - and were most definitely 'doing WC'!

Hell, just last night after training at my WC brother's school, I was commenting how well 2 of his student was coming along. I have only recently started training back at the school, so didn't know how long they had been training with him One had been there around 3 months and another only about 4 months. Their 'wing chun body' mechanics and ability to demonstrate some key basic WC principles was surely there!


Wing chun body is the power generation, ability to impose control, ability to move correctly, that the method of wing chun produces. I don't think there is any short cut to achieve this. Sure you can achieve something different in 3 months, but not wing chun.

Who said anything about short cutting anything? We're talking about developing skill - that starts on day one and goes from there.

Exactly how long do you think it takes to start developing 'wing chun body' and 'wing chun' skill if you can't even begin to do it in 3 months? is 6 months enough? 1 year? 2 years? I don't see there being any magical number to this. IMO, it starts on the very first day of training, and goes from there. Of course the skill level isn't high at first and progress depends greatly on the student, the teacher, the training method and the amount of effort put in. Some imrove very quickly and some don't. But if you're implying it takes a year or more to even start to develop usable WC body methods and structure, you're doing something wrong or learning from the wrong teachers :)

[guy b.]

I think you're mixing passing on system knowledge and building fight skill - 2 very different training approaches.

Wing chun is a personal development process. Different process, different result.

[JPinAZ]

Wing chun is a personal development process. Different process, different result.

wow, thanks for that - and for ignoring the rest of my responses/questions to you. I don't mean this as a slight against you but IMO this is a very narrow view of WC teaching methodology which probably comes from never having taught before.
In life there are many different methods & approaches that teach us how to do things where the end result is the same. Why would WC be any different?

[guy b.]

wow, thanks for that - and for ignoring the rest of my responses/questions to you. I don't mean this as a slight against you but IMO this is a very narrow view of WC teaching methodology which probably comes from never having taught before.
In life there are many different methods & approaches that teach us how to do things where the end result is the same. Why would WC be any different?

Because it is a traditional kung fu system?

Don't you have a training methodology to follow? Of course it is somewhat adaptable based on personal factors (like time to introduce pole), but it is a process that builds upon what has been done previously and requires certain inputs at certain times in order to develop certain physical attributes and skills.

I will answer your long post below. Please don't get annoyed when I only provide a short answer; sometimes I do not have time for a longer one.


WC was designed to develop or improve-upon one's fighting abilities in a short amount of time as possible. They didn't have years to pass on a complete a system to everyone back is was being used for revolutionary purposes, nor did they need to with most people being trained.

I do not believe this is true based on the system as I have experienced it. I think this is a part of wing chun mythology.


It's rediculous to think you can't improve someone's fighting abilities to some degree in 3 months time and still have it 'WC'. I've trained students that have improved a lot in their first 3 months with only a san sau-focused drilling approach. Were they ready for the UFC? Of course not! Were they 'ready for competition' as the thread inquires? Probably not - but then that wasn't the focus either and we were only training 2 hours a day, 2-3 times a week. And then I have other students that take much longer to show improvement. But the ones that do improve quickly very much demonstrate improved wing chun abilities in that time - and were most definitely 'doing WC'!

I do not believe that san sau drilling over 3 months can build effective wing chun, because doing it in this way will still require the same order of building. Therefore in 3 months you will still be working on the elbow and structure, not effective fighting skills. 3 months is not enough time to make a wing chun fighter in my opinion. You can make a person that punches and moves forward, sure. Maybe they will have some wing chun looking strategies or tricks. But this is a different thing.


Hell, just last night after training at my WC brother's school, I was commenting how well 2 of his student was coming along. I have only recently started training back at the school, so didn't know how long they had been training with him One had been there around 3 months and another only about 4 months. Their 'wing chun body' mechanics and ability to demonstrate some key basic WC principles was surely there!

Ok, good. I think their wing chun body mechanics cannot have been complete in three months though, am I correct? And were they ready to fight in the ring?


Who said anything about short cutting anything? We're talking about developing skill - that starts on day one and goes from there

If you are not building skill in the same way as the usual approach (you are trying to build what you see as the most crucial skills faster), then you must compromise on something else since time is limited and the usual process is slower.


Exactly how long do you think it takes to start developing 'wing chun body' and 'wing chun' skill if you can't even begin to do it in 3 months? is 6 months enough? 1 year? 2 years? I don't see there being any magical number to this. IMO, it starts on the very first day of training, and goes from there.

I agree that it starts on the first day of training and goes from there. But I also think that 3 months is nowhere near enough time to cover all that needs to be covered given the process as it stands. Any wing chun fighter thinking of actually fighting should have completed the empty hand forms and associated drills, the pole, and the dummy. They should have been going through the error correcting process of chi sau for some time, and have at least started gor sau. Can this be done in 3 months? No. Therefore any 3 month attempt is a compromise and is in effect short changing the student and producing something other than a wing chun fighter. Wing chun is a method for getting people ready to fight..you need to follow it if you want to end up with a wing chun fighter.

[JPinAZ]

I appreciate your views, but we seem to be going in circles here as you are asking questions I've already answered.
Let me ask you before I reply - have you taught WC at all? From what you've shared on this forum and others, you are a student currently yes? I am not asking in an attempt to belittle your views, but without a at least few years actually teaching, how can you really know what can be accomplished?

WC being a 'traditional system' doesn't mean much to me in terms of how long it should take to learn. Again, there are different methods of training depending on the student and the goal. For example, I can teach someone to 'fight' with wing chun quite well without any pole, weapons or dummy forms work (but I do admit, san sau drills on the dummy help). This can also be done without really even getting into much past the SNT form and focusing more on san sau drilling (solo work, partner drilling, skill challenge and sparring). Will they be able to pass on the system with this method? Most surely not. And IMO this is part of why we see so many different version of WC today.
But with this type of focus, passing on the system isn't the goal. Again, the goal is in developing a competent WC fighter. 3 months, sure, as I've already said several time, not enough time to COMPLETE this goal. But it is surely enough to start getting some decent base results and improved fight skill. (which BTW, you still have yet to answer - exactly how long DOES it take in your view?)
And if you don't agree with me, that's ok - your WC just might not be as efficient as mine! lol :D

[Wayfaring]

All you probably need to do so that you can experience this is to start a fight team that appears on local mma, muy thai, or smoker cards.

I will guarantee you within six months you will have someone that comes up and says "Hey I just took this fight in 6 weeks. Will you train me?"

Now part of the problem on this thread here is the extreme unlikeliness this scenario would ever happen with WC teachers.

[Wayfaring]

I think you are just scared to continue in the direction you were rambling, because you are aware that it is incoherent and that is risky if someone is around to call you on it. Unless you are makling a connection between wing chun and old western boxing then where are you going exactly?

If you can swallow your ego and genuinely want to talk about the weapons of wing chun then I am happy to do so from a position of experience.

Just a note that this "position of experience" has zero experience in doing what this thread is speaking of - training someone to be ready to fight in 3 months.

So perhaps it also might be in order for others to swallow their ego and be genuine about getting someone ready for a fight in 90 days as opposed to methods of taking 10 years.

[Wayfaring]

I appreciate your views, but we seem to be going in circles here as you are asking questions I've already answered.
Let me ask you before I reply - have you taught WC at all? From what you've shared on this forum and others, you are a student currently yes? I am not asking in an attempt to belittle your views, but without a at least few years actually teaching, how can you really know what can be accomplished?

WC being a 'traditional system' doesn't mean much to me in terms of how long it should take to learn. Again, there are different methods of training depending on the student and the goal. For example, I can teach someone to 'fight' with wing chun quite well without any pole, weapons or dummy forms work (but I do admit, san sau drills on the dummy help). This can also be done without really even getting into much past the SNT form and focusing more on san sau drilling (solo work, partner drilling, skill challenge and sparring). Will they be able to pass on the system with this method? Most surely not. And IMO this is part of why we see so many different version of WC today.
But with this type of focus, passing on the system isn't the goal. Again, the goal is in developing a competent WC fighter. 3 months, sure, as I've already said several time, not enough time to COMPLETE this goal. But it is surely enough to start getting some decent base results and improved fight skill. (which BTW, you still have yet to answer - exactly how long DOES it take in your view?)
And if you don't agree with me, that's ok - your WC just might not be as efficient as mine! lol :D

To me san sau method ingrains body karma, and also can be used to deepen the effectiveness of our execution of technique. I think there is yin/yang with the system approach in this. Anyway just a few thoughts I've had on this lately - chat with you more on this topic in a couple weeks!

[guy b.]

Just a note that this "position of experience" has zero experience in doing what this thread is speaking of - training someone to be ready to fight in 3 months.

So perhaps it also might be in order for others to swallow their ego and be genuine about getting someone ready for a fight in 90 days as opposed to methods of taking 10 years.

I'm not arguing that you can train someone to function in a fight in 3 months. It wouldn't be wing chun, that is all. I have a lot of experience in the methods of wing chun.

[boxerbilly]

I'm not arguing that you can train someone to function in a fight in 3 months. It wouldn't be wing chun, that is all. I have a lot of experience in the methods of wing chun.

Welcome back. Unless , I just missed posts you made in other forums.

It is meaningless for the most part. I believed it could be done. Others agreed and disagreed. I think it would have worked on the older point fighting scene too. Yes, you have to change the application. But I believe WC has enough ideas that it could have worked. Some may say only at a disadvantage. Well, some like the challenge. Others may see a way to exploit what was common and take advantage of those gaps with there WC.

Main point is, you have to adapt it to the environment. Sport also means, say bye bye to a lot of things that are illegal or will not work well against trained people especially if you have restrictions as to what one can do.

Guy, you made a post in the IP thread. About how you just want to be able to do WC for life. Not get busted up and all that stuff. Buddy, may have been among the greatest of posts ever. Nothing wrong with that. Fighting is not it is all cracked up to be. It is a game of EGO'S. I'm better than you stuff. Feels good to win. But it is fleeting. And in the end, most people forget but you and maybe the other guy.

[JPinAZ]

I'm not arguing that you can train someone to function in a fight in 3 months. It wouldn't be wing chun, that is all. I have a lot of experience in the methods of wing chun.

what does 'a lot of experience in wing chun' really mean?

You've been asked a few times what your TEACHING experience is but you never answered. It's pretty clear here that you are still a student. So I will assume you don't have any real teaching experience - which is perfectly fine btw! I ask because I find it hard to understand how can you claim to know what can/can't be done, or what will or will-not 'be wing chun' if you've not had much or any teaching experience yourself.

FWIW, I feel I can teach someone 'wing chun' in one lesson! Sure, the skill level won't really be there, and I'm not talking about the whole system or anything like that. But I can help them understand and some-what apply a simple concept easy enough in a few hours, and it will surely be 100% wing chun! 3 months, yeah skill sill be limited, but better be sure everything they learn will be 'wing chun' then too! To say otherwise is just silly and a bit ignorant IMO.

So to better understand you (and I've asked this before a few times) - exactly what timeframe DO you feel is acceptable for 'learning wing chun' and have it actually 'be wing chun'? At what point does training become 'wing chun' in your vast experience? ;) 6 months? a year? 10 years?
My answer would be it's 'wing chun' the moment they can apply the basic principles/concepts they've been taught.

[guy b.]

what does 'a lot of experience in wing chun' really mean?

You've been asked a few times what your TEACHING experience is but you never answered.

I hadn't noticed anyone asking me. I teach at the session where we do the non gloved sparring. I also learn from a teacher.


It's pretty clear here that you are still a student. So I will assume you don't have any real teaching experience - which is perfectly fine btw! I ask because I find it hard to understand how can you claim to know what can/can't be done, or what will or will-not 'be wing chun' if you've not had much or any teaching experience yourself.

I do have teaching experience, so your assumption is mistaken


FWIW, I feel I can teach someone 'wing chun' in one lesson! Sure, the skill level won't really be there, and I'm not talking about the whole system or anything like that. But I can help them understand and some-what apply a simple concept easy enough in a few hours, and it will surely be 100% wing chun! 3 months, yeah skill sill be limited, but better be sure everything they learn will be 'wing chun' then too! To say otherwise is just silly and a bit ignorant IMO.

I don't think I ever said you can't start teaching someone wing chun in 3 months. I agree that wing chun only takes a little while to explain and show. I think that anyne learning wing chun will be far from functional in 3 months.


So to better understand you (and I've asked this before a few times) - exactly what timeframe DO you feel is acceptable for 'learning wing chun' and have it actually 'be wing chun'?

This is an individual thing- some people learn faster than others. Wing chun is quite a definite method though and it is impossible to progress far enough through it to be functional in 3 months. You could produce a person that used some elements of wing chun thinking in 3 months, but that would not be a clever way to approach a fight with 90 days to train.


At what point does training become 'wing chun' in your vast experience? ;) 6 months? a year? 10 years?

When the body is developed and functioning, some of the methods are second nature, and the principles are internalised. There is plenty more to learn after that, but it allows you to function with wing chun, not some approximation of it. Until then they are mostly just building these things. There is nothing more useless in a fight than a half trained wing chun person- better to have no training at all.


My answer would be it's 'wing chun' the moment they can apply the basic principles/concepts they've been taught.

ok

[guy b.]

Welcome back. Unless , I just missed posts you made in other forums.

It is meaningless for the most part. I believed it could be done. Others agreed and disagreed. I think it would have worked on the older point fighting scene too. Yes, you have to change the application. But I believe WC has enough ideas that it could have worked. Some may say only at a disadvantage. Well, some like the challenge. Others may see a way to exploit what was common and take advantage of those gaps with there WC.

Main point is, you have to adapt it to the environment. Sport also means, say bye bye to a lot of things that are illegal or will not work well against trained people especially if you have restrictions as to what one can do.

Guy, you made a post in the IP thread. About how you just want to be able to do WC for life. Not get busted up and all that stuff. Buddy, may have been among the greatest of posts ever. Nothing wrong with that. Fighting is not it is all cracked up to be. It is a game of EGO'S. I'm better than you stuff. Feels good to win. But it is fleeting. And in the end, most people forget but you and maybe the other guy.

Hi, I don't post on other forums apart from odd one on martial talk, didn't know there were any. There is stuff on facebook and youtube but I can't be bothered.

Glad I made a post you liked. I can't remember making it. Do you have a link?

[boxerbilly]

Hi, I don't post on other forums apart from odd one on martial talk, didn't know there were any. There is stuff on facebook and youtube but I can't be bothered.

Glad I made a post you liked. I can't remember making it. Do you have a link?

Sorry, I should have wrote, sub-forum.


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68968-Iron-Hand-Against-Grapplers/page7
Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post

MightyB. I trained to fight scrubs. Heck, I probably was a scrub, LOL.
LOL Same here!
----
You know what's funny? I have no stake in this game.
Who's got two thumbs and ain't going to be fighting anybody? Me

Heck, I'm content to be one of those forms guys from now until the rest of my life. What's funny - I can't recall an ultra competitive judo guy hitting old age and going without a limp or some other ailment. So how's that for winning?

Nope, not for this guy - I plan on being one of those old bastids that can still move. I'm not sure that's going to be the case for many of our ultra hardcore MMA friends.

I just keep arguing on this one 'cuz it's been way too long since we've had a fresh 7 pager on the forum main page.

[guy b.]

Sorry, I should have wrote, sub-forum.


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68968-Iron-Hand-Against-Grapplers/page7

I don't think I posted in that thread

[boxerbilly]

I don't think I posted in that thread

No, I jus t saw. It was MightyB. LOL. Now you can see how I drop and my mind add-s ****. ( dyslexia ) I saw B and filled in your name. I apologize. My mistake. Regardless, I do enjoy your posts.

[JPinAZ]

I hadn't noticed anyone asking me. I teach at the session where we do the non gloved sparring. I also learn from a teacher.

I do have teaching experience, so your assumption is mistaken

I don't think I ever said you can't start teaching someone wing chun in 3 months. I agree that wing chun only takes a little while to explain and show. I think that anyne learning wing chun will be far from functional in 3 months.

This is an individual thing- some people learn faster than others. Wing chun is quite a definite method though and it is impossible to progress far enough through it to be functional in 3 months. You could produce a person that used some elements of wing chun thinking in 3 months, but that would not be a clever way to approach a fight with 90 days to train.

When the body is developed and functioning, some of the methods are second nature, and the principles are internalised. There is plenty more to learn after that, but it allows you to function with wing chun, not some approximation of it. Until then they are mostly just building these things. There is nothing more useless in a fight than a half trained wing chun person- better to have no training at all.

ok

There's a pattern forming here. You feel you are more than qualified to come tell everyone what won't work, what won't 'be wing chun' based on time spent training, etc. But you're also clearly unwilling/unable to tell us all what IS an acceptable time-frame in your expert opinion, even when asked on multiple occasions. :rolleyes:
When people do this they shouldn't be taken seriously and most likely talking out their a55. They also typically don't want to share who they are, who they train with or who they train under. Another pattern? No need to reply, I'm no longer interested

[chaotic2k]

To train a guy with zero experience to enter a full contact feet and hands only competition. Drawing only from traditional WC as you were taught, how would you do it ? What would you focus on ? What would you drop ? Think about it because if you teach your guy **** that can not be used in 3 months, he is going to potentially get hurt. But call it amature and good reffing should anyone run into overwhelmed issues or looks like you are just outmatched and we end it to prevent serious injury. Paired up against a guy of similar time in say kick boxing. Or as below. A student with many years in.

When I was in California, I found an Isshin Ryu community. The teacher and student decided they knew what to do to enter a full contact kickboxing match. I was maybe 20 at the time and 2 years out of boxing. I offered to show the guy some boxing and ring work. He laughed and said he knew what he was doing. Went to Vegas for the fight. it was a pro fight and he never did anything but tag sparring. He got knocked out in the first round. In fact they had trouble bringing him back around. For a bit I was told they believed he was going to die. He ended up with brain damage. Thankfully not bad enough to cause disability. But that ended any nonsense he believed. Now, I probably could not have prevented that even if I showed him what little I knew but he was not ready in any way, shape or form and I KNEW THAT ! And he had 4 or more years in the art.

Yes 3 months is no problem if the person learning has the attributes of a fighter. You would just need to focus on footwork, punching, covering up and kicking. Lots of cardiovascular and bag work/pad work and sparring against kickboxers. Considering I have seen the majority of wing chun guys fall apart in full contact what's the harm of 3 months practical training. I would not waste time on chi sau in that 3 month period. Peace ;)

[guy b.]

There's a pattern forming here. You feel you are more than qualified to come tell everyone what won't work, what won't 'be wing chun' based on time spent training, etc. But you're also clearly unwilling/unable to tell us all what IS an acceptable time-frame in your expert opinion, even when asked on multiple occasions. :rolleyes:
When people do this they shouldn't be taken seriously and most likely talking out their a55. They also typically don't want to share who they are, who they train with or who they train under. Another pattern? No need to reply, I'm no longer interested

I'm happy to tell you, and indeed have done so. I don't think that anyone is going to be fight competent using wing chun until they have done at least SNT, CK, Pole and MYJ, with associated drilling and testing. Certainly nobody can think of fighting without CK because because it introduces movement. Nobody can realistically think of fighting with wing chun until they have developed power and linkage via wall bag, poon sau, pole. Nobody can realistically think of fighting with wing chun until they have good timing and reflexes through chi sau and other drilling, bag and pad drills, sparring.

Wing chun is kung fu, not a weekend self defence course. Kung fu takes time and effort. As I have said before, it is better not to be trained or to quickly learn basic kickboxing than to half learn wing chun and expect it to work. IF 3 months is available then do not choose wing chun

[chaotic2k]

Yes 3 months is no problem if the person learning has the attributes of a fighter. You would just need to focus on footwork, punching, covering up and kicking. Lots of cardiovascular and bag work/pad work and sparring against kickboxers. Considering I have seen the majority of wing chun guys fall apart in full contact what's the harm of 3 months practical training. I would not waste time on chi sau in that 3 month period. Peace ;)

If you have a tough guy then the martial art is an extension of that. Wing chun struggles to hold its own in full combat because the traditional training is geared for wing chun vs wing chun.

Chi sau, forms are great for the art and getting a deeper insight but most wing chun guys use barely any of the chi sau stuff in full contact. So in my humble opinion after a good few years of training is it is very possible to teach someone to fight with wing chun without going through the traditional route. For the right person, 3 months is enough time to fight using a functional method of wing chun concepts.

[guy b.]

If you have a tough guy then the martial art is an extension of that. Wing chun struggles to hold its own in full combat because the traditional training is geared for wing chun vs wing chun.

Chi sau, forms are great for the art and getting a deeper insight but most wing chun guys use barely any of the chi sau stuff in full contact. So in my humble opinion after a good few years of training is it is very possible to teach someone to fight with wing chun without going through the traditional route. For the right person, 3 months is enough time to fight using a functional method of wing chun concepts.

Without the traditional route, how can it even be wing chun?

What do you mean by "most wing chun guys use barely any of the chi sau stuff in full contact"?

[chaotic2k]

Without the traditional route, how can it even be wing chun?

What do you mean by "most wing chun guys use barely any of the chi sau stuff in full contact"?

Hi Guy. Guess it's more a case of how you view wing chun so please don't think I'm saying your opinion is not valid but I'm guessing we may well have differences on our approach to wing chun...

If you look at the history of yip man's wing chun family it's clear to see a constant evolution in wing chun. It has been updated by many people, this validates it's a progressive martial art rather than a traditional martial art. There is no dim mak, lion dance and medicine attached which you will find in alot of traditional CMA.

The reason wing chun has evolved is because it's a concept based philosophy. Bruce Lee used the concepts of wing chun to create Jkd.

Now where we might differ. Wing chun can be used in a pool game, a football match, picking your nose. The concepts apply to many things. I can train like a Thai boxer and use wing chun, so can you ;)

If you look on YouTube you will see countless wing chun guys losing all technical ability and ending up looking more like choy lee fut. I have been to full contact events and seen it with my own eyes. The wing chun guys who can apply there kung fu in kickboxing type rules have to be able to box with there wing chun.. Simples ;)

Chi sau is great and I teach it to my students but it's easy to forget that chi sau is in many ways a cooperative training method which alot wing chun guys achieve an amazing level of skill but time and time again we see very little chi sau techniques in actual combat. Look at cheung vs boztepe. Boztepe has beautiful chi sau but you see him wrestle cheung.

Barry lee who was WSL's top foreign fighter was renowned for using just punches in real combat. Even WSL himself was reported by Duncan Leung to just use punches in most his fights. Show me the taan sau's and qwan sau's, laap sau's?...

To use wing chun in the ring you need to train for the ring which is very possible since wing chun has some very good striking and I'm not talking endless chain punching. Hope I answered your questions Guy . Peace :)

[guy b.]

Hi Guy. Guess it's more a case of how you view wing chun so please don't think I'm saying your opinion is not valid but I'm guessing we may well have differences on our approach to wing chun...

Don't worry, no danger of offending me. Say what you like


If you look at the history of yip man's wing chun family it's clear to see a constant evolution in wing chun. It has been updated by many people, this validates it's a progressive martial art rather than a traditional martial art. There is no dim mak, lion dance and medicine attached which you will find in alot of traditional CMA.

The reason wing chun has evolved is because it's a concept based philosophy. Bruce Lee used the concepts of wing chun to create Jkd.

Wing chun is a traditional martial art precisely because the same principle based approach is maintained down the generations. Most traditional CMA are principle based. Wing chun is more sparse than many other traditional CMA it is true. Gracie jiu jitsu (for example) is a traditional MA for the same reason.


Now where we might differ. Wing chun can be used in a pool game, a football match, picking your nose. The concepts apply to many things. I can train like a Thai boxer and use wing chun, so can you ;)

Wing chun principles can be loosely applied to many areas of life I agree. You will not ever develop wing chun though if you read about some principles and then only train in MT. You will develop MT


If you look on YouTube you will see countless wing chun guys losing all technical ability and ending up looking more like choy lee fut. I have been to full contact events and seen it with my own eyes. The wing chun guys who can apply there kung fu in kickboxing type rules have to be able to box with there wing chun.. Simples ;)

There is a lot of bad wing chun around. Many people never learn to make it functional, or just never learn it, while thinking they do. This is not the problem of the system


Chi sau is great and I teach it to my students but it's easy to forget that chi sau is in many ways a cooperative training method which alot wing chun guys achieve an amazing level of skill but time and time again we see very little chi sau techniques in actual combat. Look at cheung vs boztepe. Boztepe has beautiful chi sau but you see him wrestle cheung.

If chi sau is a cooperative drill then why would you expect to see combat looking like chi sau? What do you think chi sau is for?


Barry lee who was WSL's top foreign fighter was renowned for using just punches in real combat. Even WSL himself was reported by Duncan Leung to just use punches in most his fights. Show me the taan sau's and qwan sau's, laap sau's?...

Why would you expect to see anything but hitting in a fight?


To use wing chun in the ring you need to train for the ring which is very possible since wing chun has some very good striking and I'm not talking endless chain punching. Hope I answered your questions Guy . Peace :)

Wing chun is not a good approach to ring fighting with gloves

[chaotic2k]

Don't worry, no danger of offending me. Say what you like



Wing chun is a traditional martial art precisely because the same principle based approach is maintained down the generations. Most traditional CMA are principle based. Wing chun is more sparse than many other traditional CMA it is true. Gracie jiu jitsu (for example) is a traditional MA for the same reason.



Wing chun principles can be loosely applied to many areas of life I agree. You will not ever develop wing chun though if you read about some principles and then only train in MT. You will develop MT



There is a lot of bad wing chun around. Many people never learn to make it functional, or just never learn it, while thinking they do. This is not the problem of the system



If chi sau is a cooperative drill then why would you expect to see combat looking like chi sau? What do you think chi sau is for?



Why would you expect to see anything but hitting in a fight?



Wing chun is not a good approach to ring fighting with gloves

Like I said my friend seems we have differences on how we view wing chun. ;)

[guy b.]

Like I said my friend seems we have differences on how we view wing chun. ;)

No problem, many different approaches