The concerpt of cover in Wing Chun

[boxerbilly]

I am not sure if it was here or else where . Someone had posted how boxers are great at blocking. I informed him that is not entirely true. We cover. We already know what is likely to be sent our way. The vast majority of boxers punch in standard combinations. Boxing those that do not, really makes you look bad. Me, I probably always looked bad anyway.

But with the things I have been pressing for, answers really and why not if I think maybe one has not thought enough or looked at it from different angles or perspectives.
Explored. See what you may be missing.

So, it bothers me. WHY ? WHY? WHY? It drive me nuts!!!! Why not cover. So I Googles "wing chun covers" . This is what I found. Same as I learned in boxing.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ecw2I-gDXR4C&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=wing+chun+covers&source=bl&ots=E0SMNYnmZ1&sig=Jje8oh8T8TqtedZpTZ1FTxyTG6k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFgQ6AEwDWoVChMI0fC8sYCOyAIVyowNCh2lRQNY#v=on epage&q=wing%20chun%20covers&f=false

Side note, drop down and look at the wonderful comic book illustrations. I assume Duncan approved these. Maybe not. But maybe he showed what he did to the guy that drew them. What do I see ? A freaking long as swing, in the form of a slap, assuming trail marks are at least in part documenting the event. Coming out of the sticks and into the city. Can not attacks from far away also be efficient ? Does it always have to be what is closest ? When the target that presents is open and the best and maybe the only attack you have to hit it is from a position and distance that that appears will take to long when looking at it from third person angles.

[YouKnowWho]

The word "cover" is too conservative IMO. When your opponent's

- right hand punches at your head, you sent your left punch toward his right ear,
- left hand punches at your head, you sent your right punch toward his left ear,

your punch can interrupt your opponent's punch. If your opponent punches at you and you punch him back at the same time, your action is "interrupt" which is more than just "cover".

Your opponent's attack triggers your attack. That's the true spirit of the CMA.

[wckf92]

I am not sure if it was here or else where . Someone had posted how boxers are great at blocking. I informed him that is not entirely true. We cover. We already know what is likely to be sent our way. The vast majority of boxers punch in standard combinations. Boxing those that do not, really makes you look bad. Me, I probably always looked bad anyway.

But with the things I have been pressing for, answers really and why not if I think maybe one has not thought enough or looked at it from different angles or perspectives.
Explored. See what you may be missing.

So, it bothers me. WHY ? WHY? WHY? It drive me nuts!!!! Why not cover. So I Googles "wing chun covers" . This is what I found. Same as I learned in boxing.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ecw2I-gDXR4C&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=wing+chun+covers&source=bl&ots=E0SMNYnmZ1&sig=Jje8oh8T8TqtedZpTZ1FTxyTG6k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFgQ6AEwDWoVChMI0fC8sYCOyAIVyowNCh2lRQNY#v=on epage&q=wing%20chun%20covers&f=false

Side note, drop down and look at the wonderful comic book illustrations. I assume Duncan approved these. Maybe not. But maybe he showed what he did to the guy that drew them. What do I see ? A freaking long as swing, in the form of a slap, assuming trail marks are at least in part documenting the event. Coming out of the sticks and into the city. Can not attacks from far away also be efficient ? Does it always have to be what is closest ? When the target that presents is open and the best and maybe the only attack you have to hit it is from a position and distance that that appears will take to long when looking at it from third person angles.

Duncan's lineage is all about "covering". He may not be as well known as some of the other "famous" Yip Man students out there... but he is nonetheless very good at what he does by all accounts. No blocking, just cover the space, move in/crash in, and strike. KISS principle.

[boxerbilly]

Duncan's lineage is all about "covering". He may not be as well known as some of the other "famous" Yip Man students out there... but he is nonetheless very good at what he does by all accounts. No blocking, just cover the space, move in/crash in, and strike. KISS principle.

First, thank you both.

Second, I guess for some in WC ( again being used generally ) he may be violating certain rules to make it work for himself? Or he took what some may consider a lesser principle and made it a major one for himself.

Now being your descripting is somewhat similar to how I boxed, I certainly can understand it may not be the ideal way for everyone. You are probably going to get hit a lot.
In the ring. Elsewhere it may work better than you think, provided you can ideally attack first, barring that again, you are going to get hit, hopefully on the cover, yes, if there is a weapon involved not a great idea but I have never seen any great ideas when it is empty hands vs weapons. Although, I think Aikido has great ideas against normal attacks. Against a guy training in any system that trains knives, they are probably dead. Fact is even a untrained person with a knife , if they are intent on using it, is about the deadliest thing you could have to deal with. I would rather have a gun placed to my head. In range there are may more options to avoid being ****.

[boxerbilly]

I know nothing about Duncan but I just youtube him. A couple of clicks in the line ups and I came across this. I see this guy is using what I would call a cross guard. Other may refer to that as an armadillo guard. Archie Moore loved it. I have no idea what you may call that in WC. I also saw what I would call a universal guard. Hi-lo. And a few other things I would have another name for.

Enjoy and I am certain some here know this usage- others may not. It just may have never been taught like this where you learn.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieds4cWXJss

[boxerbilly]

The word "cover" is too conservative IMO. When your opponent's

- right hand punches at your head, you sent your left punch toward his right ear,
- left hand punches at your head, you sent your right punch toward his left ear,

your punch can interrupt your opponent's punch. If your opponent punches at you and you punch him back at the same time, your action is "interrupt" which is more than just "cover".

Your opponent's attack triggers your attack. That's the true spirit of the CMA.

I apologize for not replying to this earlier. I was hoping someone else would have. What you are suggesting is really stop hitting. Gene would know all about this probably better than anyone else on this forum period! It is not cover ! What you are suggesting takes great skill in seeing, timing and initiation speed. I DO NOT HAVE THAT ! I am missing 2. So, useless for me to build around the idea not that I never, ever manage it. But with glasses off, forget about it !

Even people with great eyes can not make it work well enough to if they do not have everything else physically needed to make it work. Some guys may not have what is needed to make certain concepts work period. All guys can learn to cover and fairly quickly and learn to fight out of it. Long ago guards used to be called attitudes. I once read a book by Hayes on ninjutsu were he talked about guards and the behavior associated with them. Sorry, back on point, you look that up if it seems important.

Got to run.

[YouKnowWho]

What you are suggesting takes great skill in seeing, timing and initiation speed.

It can be as simple as shown the following clip. In this clip, he used "rhino guard". He can use "2 straight lines" to move in as I have described. The fight just can't be any simpler that that. Your opponent throws 1, 2 punches, you move in and ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEOPDhdAIFA&feature=youtu.be

[boxerbilly]

YKW, clever.

I used to practice something similar. But it was a hit to face. Double palm and head buried between arms while moving in. Ive seen other guys do similar but the used one arm to wrap an arm and throw. I guess variations of the same idea. Or similar.

Thanks. I understand what you were describing to me more accurately.

I really got to stop signing in tonight. I have so much to do. My follow up would be to do it again and again until it was no longer there. Continues attack using the same **** thing over and over. Hopefully thats the end of it.

[wckf92]

First, thank you both.

Second, I guess for some in WC ( again being used generally ) he may be violating certain rules to make it work for himself? Or he took what some may consider a lesser principle and made it a major one for himself.

Violating certain rules? IMO I don't think he is. Others may think so (as you indicated) and that is their opinion. You'd really have to read the book and/or watch his video series to understand more on his idea of "covering" to understand better. From what little I know about boxing, I can see the similarities you hinted at. A boxer will "cover up" a vulnerable space on one side of his body or head while the other hand while the other is attacking... in anticipation of his opponents' potentially better counter-punching skill/timing etc.

I do firmly believe that each WC/WT/VT person/lineage interprets & applies the theories in their own way. If it works for them in a given circumstance, good on them!

[boxerbilly]

Violating certain rules? IMO I don't think he is. Others may think so (as you indicated) and that is their opinion. You'd really have to read the book and/or watch his video series to understand more on his idea of "covering" to understand better. From what little I know about boxing, I can see the similarities you hinted at. A boxer will "cover up" a vulnerable space on one side of his body or head while the other hand while the other is attacking... in anticipation of his opponents' potentially better counter-punching skill/timing etc.

I do firmly believe that each WC/WT/VT person/lineage interprets & applies the theories in their own way. If it works for them in a given circumstance, good on them!

I don't know if he is or is not. Again, I can only relate to what I see based on my experience. I do believe that his ideas are going to probably work better in a fight situation. Gloves or no gloves. I also think that that ,what I call your guys main guard can work too. But maybe not for everyone or against all type. And with heavy gloves your are going to lose power on the lead hand because the distance may be so short. Torque the stance is one way to get some back.

I was actually going to make a post last night for those that may read anything I write and post any videos to try and illustrate my case that I am not WC. Let me say that again. I am not WC. To make that clear for anyone that reads and believes , "oh, he found a better way." MAYBE NOT ! I also believe that Duncan is very aware and applies as many or all of the principles in WC even if the end picture looks different from another's WC. Do not take anything I wrote as fact for WC. Obviously you WC guys are going to be thinking, this guy ( me) is off his freaking rocker. It's cool. Again, everyone, WC or not. I can not teach or explain WC to anyone. I can only point fingers at similarities. Similar does not mean SAME ! Close. What I suggest may work but that does not mean it is WC no matter how closely I think things are.

[Vajramusti]

Duncan's lineage is all about "covering". He may not be as well known as some of the other "famous" Yip Man students out there... but he is nonetheless very good at what he does by all accounts. No blocking, just cover the space, move in/crash in, and strike. KISS principle.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Covering" is an application in Duncan's lingo-it is not a fundamental concept for all occasions imo

[wckf92]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Covering" is an application in Duncan's lingo-it is not a fundamental concept for all occasions imo

True.
There's no such thing as a magic bullet for all occasions, regardless of fighting system or style.

[boxerbilly]

True.
There's no such thing as a magic bullet for all occasions, regardless of fighting system or style.

My main deal is how do you get guys functional fast. If many of the concepts revolve around ideas that take years to achieve then WC is not a fast and and easy system to learn. There probably is no such animal. But people read that. It is often advertised. Wing Chun fits all body types. Wing Chun is a fast system to functionality. Some say for self defense only. Yet, some guys use it to complete with and do great too so , obviously that is possible and the idea it is only self defense is not completely true. Yet we read that. Wing Chun is an art for everyone. We'll that can be said for all arts. WC is not alone when they say we can get you ready in a very short amount of time. Maybe 1 out of 20 that works for. What do the rest do? Here they are all learning to use it the same way yet it ends up only working that way for one guy. The others just are not making it work enough. Again, not a only WC phenomenon. As a consumer. One could say, I was promised this not only through advertising but perhaps verbally as well and it did not work ,then I find out it take say 5 years before you can do this, yet for many even after 5 years they can not make things work. Point being, BAIT and SWITCH ! People SUE any other product or service for doing that.

Now, lets me take us back to that video that was posted of the WC guy that was basically a heavy bag for the CLF dude. We assume and maybe correctly, that he does not have much experience. BUT, thinking more on it could we not also assume he may have had a couple of years in the art? That he may have even been the best guy "sparring" wise in his school. Point is, he had to have some experience or it is highly doubtful he would have entered. He believed it would work as shown.

Could it be that much of what many take as simple concepts require years to master and even then some will never be able to ever do it with enough regularity to justify continuing practice of say that concept for that technique. If so, and some kid shows up expecting to be taught to fight in a short amount of time and it don't deliver so he leaves. Maybe he goes someplace else or maybe he just decided Im buying a gun or carrying a knife.

Going back to the WC fighter vs CLF or whatever. There is a good chance he had enough time in to make it work so why did it not work for him? We can say, he forgot to do this or that. Is that really his fault or the fault of the teacher? Was he prepaired wrongly for that situation? Was his training focused on things that either are unlikely to occur or require a level of ability that he just does not posses. See a coach would look at things differently. What are you strong at. What do you suck at. What stands a greater chance of working in a short time. What will only work after years in. Why is it this guy cant get this. I guess I have to figure out how to make it work so he can use it since he can not make certain things work like they should for him.

You see when I read WC can work for everyone. Short , fat, big, small, etc. I do not see it as meaning carbon copies. Then the bigger guy always wins. Or the faster guy always wins. I take it to me, that we can make it fit you and make it work . Is that not conceptual thought? And is this really being done?

[boxerbilly]

To be clear I am not talking about creating Champions or the best ever. Goodluck with that if that is your idea. It is possible but it does not happen often. This and all are supposed to be everymans arts. Or they tend to be advertised that way. Can you make them functional for what they are likely to encounter? So, that " short period of time" What does that mean for you ? And can you deliver that to **** near anyone in that time frame. Recall the time frame most students leave you if you teach. Do they really have the tools they think they have ? What time frame is that in general ? 3 months? 6 months? Etc. Have you delivered on your promise ?

No it will not work on everyone but it should work more times than not. And him walking out the door, are you sure he could put it work ? If you are teaching him something he can not work, is there a substitute way that he may be able to work? It sucks when you look at it in that light. How many make any of this their life? Or ever intended to? Or made a mistake in thought and change direction after the fact. If one could only hope for guys that will live and breath the art and have all the ideal physical and mental abilities than you are a lucky man. The rest may as well close up shop because that is not the norm. You guys get fighters walking through your door. The will always posses distinct advantages or the average person.. It is their nature. Can you provide a reliable service for those that art not ? Those that will walk. They are trusting you to. They believed enough in you to sign and pay. Are you honoring your end of the bargain? If you say 6 months then the person should be working the stuff against anything similar at the very least more times then not. And then there always seems to be one guy that man, he just sucks but he sticks around. I love those guys. I really do. I would love to see them successful. They got the mentality, they don't quit but other things don't seem to work out right for them. They look good but cant use it.

[wckf92]

My main deal is how do you get guys functional fast.

Dude, those two terms you used are quite subjective. Hard to answer you on that one.


If many of the concepts revolve around ideas that take years to achieve then WC is not a fast and and easy system to learn. There probably is no such animal. But people read that. It is often advertised. Wing Chun fits all body types. Wing Chun is a fast system to functionality. Some say for self defense only. Yet, some guys use it to complete with and do great too so , obviously that is possible and the idea it is only self defense is not completely true. Yet we read that. Wing Chun is an art for everyone. We'll that can be said for all arts. WC is not alone when they say we can get you ready in a very short amount of time. Maybe 1 out of 20 that works for. What do the rest do? Here they are all learning to use it the same way yet it ends up only working that way for one guy. The others just are not making it work enough. Again, not a only WC phenomenon. As a consumer. One could say, I was promised this not only through advertising but perhaps verbally as well and it did not work ,then I find out it take say 5 years before you can do this, yet for many even after 5 years they can not make things work. Point being, BAIT and SWITCH ! People SUE any other product or service for doing that.

It seems you are quite wound up about WC advertising and marketing. Don't know how to respond to this(?). I never saw or read any of the stuff you describe when I started learning WC. I guess it just never concerned me. I, nor anyone else, are responsible for others' perception of WC, how "functionally fast" it is learned, etc.


...Maybe he goes someplace else...

WC isn't for everyone. People/students come and go. Life moves on. It is very rare to find a fully dedicated student.


Going back to the WC fighter vs CLF or whatever. There is a good chance he had enough time in to make it work so why did it not work for him? Was his training focused on things that either are unlikely to occur...

There are perhaps many many reasons why it did not work for him. Some people don't train WC for the 'aggressive' side of it... some are only after the 'health & fitness' aspects. And some, who think they are learning how to use WC may have an instructor who doesn't possess the skill to pass along what he knows. Still others may lack the proper training methodologies...

[wckf92]

Can you make them functional for what they are likely to encounter? So, that " short period of time" What does that mean for you ? And can you deliver that to **** near anyone in that time frame. Recall the time frame most students leave you if you teach. Do they really have the tools they think they have ? What time frame is that in general ? 3 months? 6 months? Etc. Have you delivered on your promise ?

For example: If I said to a student "I can make you "functional" in six months"... then I would. BUT, that means six months, training at least 3 classes a week minimum; putting in the road work outside of class; etc. MOST do not want or can't do that. MOST don't want to pay money to get beaten down and crushed class after class. The gauntlet isn't for everyone. Most just want to put on a cool looking kung fu uniform, do some forms, bow to someone, go home and watch yip man movies some more. Rinse and repeat.

[boxerbilly]

For example: If I said to a student "I can make you "functional" in six months"... then I would. BUT, that means six months, training at least 3 classes a week minimum; putting in the road work outside of class; etc. MOST do not want or can't do that. MOST don't want to pay money to get beaten down and crushed class after class. The gauntlet isn't for everyone. Most just want to put on a cool looking kung fu uniform, do some forms, bow to someone, go home and watch yip man movies some more. Rinse and repeat.

Well that is good to know you have faith that you could do so. And yes, the students willingness is needed. I am unclear if you meant that specifically for getting him ready for a contact competition or self defense I am certain if you can make a guy ready to fight in 6 then you should have no issues providing that against common attacks he may face in day to day life.

Example, Ed presented ideas for a hook punch. All sound in there own way. As he pointed out, according to him most are not WC. I suggested Ed find out if they really work. He does not need to post any videos of himself getting clocked which is bound to happen to us all. But to "know" is what I am suggesting, will it work for what I am intending to in as close to realistic as possible. Then, maybe he might wonder, I wonder if this WC idea may also work against it. He may find something I ( as in him)believed to work , will not work for him yet Robert it works for. Thee are many reason that could be and it probably has nothing to do with his time in art or understanding why it should work. He just may not be able to make some things work. There is no shame in that. He still knows how it should work and it may work very well for another. He can still teach it even if he can not pull it off personally. But, the great thing is he has to find what works for him most consistently. His pivot and punch may work perfectly for him. He still may get hit and pull it off. He needs to find out for himself. Maybe he already has ?

[JPinAZ]

It seems you are quite wound up about WC advertising and marketing. Don't know how to respond to this(?). I never saw or read any of the stuff you describe when I started learning WC. I guess it just never concerned me. I, nor anyone else, are responsible for others' perception of WC, how "functionally fast" it is learned, etc.

Good point, I've been thinking this same thing.

@boxerbilly - First, I think it's great you have taken such an interest in the art! But for someone that's never taken one class in the art, you seem to have drawn a lot of conclusions (misconceptions) of what WC 'is' or 'isn't', whether we're talking system, curriculum or advertising, marketing or whatever. And that's fine, but without any any actual experience in the system, your current judgments aren't really based on anything other than hear-say. Not a very fair way to form an opinion about something eh?

I don't mean this to be a d!ck, but are you even interested in actually learning the art at some point? Have you considered checking out some local schools/clubs in your area? I would think with someone that's showing as much interest in the art as you are lately, that that would be the best way to get the answers for all of your questions you have (ie. direct, first hand experience).
Or are you just championing your own personal 'Save the WC Crusade'? :)

[JPinAZ]

Well that is good to know you have faith that you could do so. And yes, the students willingness is needed. I am unclear if you meant that specifically for getting him ready for a contact competition or self defense I am certain if you can make a guy ready to fight in 6 then you should have no issues providing that against common attacks he may face in day to day life.

Example, Ed presented ideas for a hook punch. All sound in there own way. As he pointed out, according to him most are not WC. I suggested Ed find out if they really work. He does not need to post any videos of himself getting clocked which is bound to happen to us all. But to "know" is what I am suggesting, will it work for what I am intending to in as close to realistic as possible. Then, maybe he might wonder, I wonder if this WC idea may also work against it. He may find something I ( as in him)believed to work , will not work for him yet Robert it works for. Thee are many reason that could be and it probably has nothing to do with his time in art or understanding why it should work. He just may not be able to make some things work. There is no shame in that. He still knows how it should work and it may work very well for another. He can still teach it even if he can not pull it off personally. But, the great thing is he has to find what works for him most consistently. His pivot and punch may work perfectly for him. He still may get hit and pull it off. He needs to find out for himself. Maybe he already has ?

One would assume that if someone as set up an online WC University and is charging money for online WC self defense lessons to 'save WC' as he more-or-less puts is, he would have done exactly what you're suggesting and proven all of this to himself already. Personally, I'm up in the air on if he has or not given what he's presented in his hook defense clip. And I'm not saying he needs to post up clips proving he has.
But if someone hasn't tested what they are teaching/charging money for against resisting opponents trying to really land some good shots, it's all still just unproven theory.

[boxerbilly]

Good point, I've been thinking this same thing.

Boxerbilly, First, I think it's great you have taken such an interest in the art! But for someone that's never taken one class in the art, you seem to have drawn a lot of conclusions (misconceptions) of what WC 'is' or 'isn't', whether we're talking system, curriculum or advertising, marketing or whatever. And that's fine, but without any any actual experience in the system, your current judgments aren't really based on anything other than hear-say. Not a very fair way to form an opinion about something eh?

I don't mean this to be a d!ck, but are you even interested in actually learning the art at some point? Have you considered checking out some local schools/clubs in your area? I would think with someone that's showing as much interest in the art as you are lately, that that would be the best way to get the answers for all of your questions you have (ie. direct, first hand experience).
Or are you just championing your own personal 'Save the WC Crusade'? :)

LOL. It does not need saving remember? I go more by see-say. Youtube is a wonderful, eye opening experience at times. If the theories are sound they should hold up. They should work more than not. If someone asked me if a guy was standing in front of me and threw his hook what would I do. My answer is I am probably going to be hit. I am just not very good. But knowing that from having been hit enough. I can now hit first. But until I figured out man hands down sucks and generally the hands are down at kick off, I figured I can stop it or at least get out the way. I know there are those that could do it. Did I not train long enough? Did I train wrong for it? Or maybe it does not matter how much I trained for that I am going to get cracked more than not? What is the better option now for me? Don't find out the hard way. Anlerich is not the only one here with dental implants.

Would I learn it ? I do not know. Does it hold interest. Certainly.

[boxerbilly]

And something does not always need to be trained all out to provide valid workable skills. We did not train all out in wrestling all the time. But the methods worked more than not because you learn fairly fast what you do well and the coach also knows these things if you forget. I tend to believe grappling in general is picked up faster than anything thing else by most people. I was a good wrestler when I did it but I prefer not to go to the ground.

I also think the GJJ/BJJ guys found a formula that works consistently for almost everyone. They too learn fairly fast what the are good at and what does not work as well for them. I am not recommending anyone learn GJJ or whatever. But could one not find and follow a formula that produces more consistent success ? I bet the average GJJ kid in say highschool could handle himself good enough against most anyone at the school after 3-4 months. Because he found out what works for him. Those Brazillians really looked at what they had. Then figured out, dudes, this is all they really got when they are like this. Look, it is almost always easy to get someone to get like that. Know, if we do this, it nullifies this and they have no choice but to do this, when they do, we got them. Works more times than not. So say for self defense that was against guys likely to know very little. And if things go bad they usually can recover and turn it around.

But then they went and decided to find out if we can do this just as consistently against any art. And pretty much they did. Eventually guys figured things out to make it less likely in in a pure form in UFC. That's besides the point. The point is it that these guys figured a way to take beginners, even the ones that were not natural born fighter mentalities and create successful out comes across the board and consistently. Did they find a good model/idea/concept? A way to expedite to function **** near all that come through the door and if they leave in 3 months they can do things that work for them.

Sounds like a good thing to me. Can WC be made to work that quick ? If not, why not? Because it was never before done this way ?

[JPinAZ]

And something does not always need to be trained all out to provide valid workable skills.

If you want to prove to yourself 'yes, this works against a real, committed attack then yes, at some point it does. I'm talking something a lot more live than the punch and hold type attacks - that's only for basic level drilling of motion. And IMO 'taking Sifu's/coach's word for it' doesn't cut it either. If we don't prove it to ourselves realistically it's all fantasy & theory.


We did not train all out in wrestling all the time.

Great. But then, no one here said you have to train 'all out all the time' anyway. Thanks for sharing I guess? lol

There's a difference between realistic testing of applications and training 'all out all the time'. Again, if you don't test things out in a live setting with a resisting opponent at some point, you really have no way of knowing if it's going to work when you need it. Period.


But then they went and decided to find out if we can do this just as consistently against any art. And pretty much they did. Eventually guys figured things out to make it less likely in in a pure form in UFC. That's besides the point. The point is it that these guys figured a way to take beginners, even the ones that were not natural born fighter mentalities and create successful out comes across the board and consistently. Did they find a good model/idea/concept? A way to expedite to function **** near all that come through the door and if they leave in 3 months they can do things that work for them.

Sounds like they were realistically pressure testing it to see what works and what doesn't thru the whole process to me!


Sounds like a good thing to me. Can WC be made to work that quick ? If not, why not? Because it was never before done this way ?

What's the point in answering as I would suggest you not take my word for it. Instead of continuing to ask this question repeatedly, why not just take some classes from a good instructor and get the answer for yourself.

[boxerbilly]

If you want to prove to yourself 'yes, this works against a real, committed attack then yes, at some point it does. I'm talking something a lot more live than the punch and hold type attacks - that's only for basic level drilling of motion. And IMO 'taking Sifu's/coach's word for it' doesn't cut it either. If we don't prove it to ourselves realistically it's all fantasy & theory.



Great. But then, no one here said you have to train 'all out all the time' anyway. Thanks for sharing I guess? lol

There's a difference between realistic testing of applications and training 'all out all the time'. Again, if you don't test things out in a live setting with a resisting opponent at some point, you really have no way of knowing if it's going to work when you need it. Period.



Sounds like they were realistically pressure testing it to see what works and what doesn't thru the whole process to me!



What's the point in answering as I would suggest you not take my word for it. Instead of continuing to ask this question repeatedly, why not just take some classes from a good instructor and get the answer for yourself.


Sorry, I signed back on the write, I bet there are guys that can do as I wrote. Are doing just that. I'll add now, you may be doing that. But if the guy in the video has even a year in, they are not doing that there. Where else may that be similar ?

Again, maybe one day. In a word, function. My function, LOL.

[JPinAZ]

I go more by see-say. Youtube is a wonderful, eye opening experience at times.

Lol, if that's how the majority of people feel they can realistically learn and understand an art as sophisticated as WC, maybe WC is dying...

While it's great to watch clips and talk about arts that interest us, at some point most sensible people that show as much interest and concern for an art they never studied as you have, would actually go the next step and put in the time/work and finding the answers thru first-hand experience.


If the theories are sound they should hold up. They should work more than not.

That's a wonderful theory, and many people might agree - as do I. But not because I've talked about it online or watch a clip of someone else telling me about it but because they've put in the work to find out. Can you see the reoccurring theme here?
Question is, can you prove it?[I] Or are you even interested in finding out if it's true?
If not, all I can say is, well, that's a wonderful theory :)


Would I learn it ? I do not know. Does it hold interest. Certainly.

You do seem to enjoy talking about it enough! What part of the world do yo live? I'm sure there's some local WC guys that you could meet up with. While at times it's fun to discuss things, even one hour of face-to-face interaction will give a lot more answers than days of discussion here! Speaking of, I have to get to my class!

[boxerbilly]

There is one very good I believe.

[wckf92]

@boxerbilly

I must second what JPinAZ said... if you get a chance, try to find a good school (i.e. one that focuses on a s s - whoopin) :D and give it a go .

[boxerbilly]

@boxerbilly

I must second what JPinAZ said... if you get a chance, try to find a good school (i.e. one that focuses on a s s - whoopin) :D and give it a go .

History, Okay, I will write it again for the understanding of all. I hurt my neck and back significantly about 4 years ago. Maybe one day. There is a slight chance I am done!
Some may think after 4 years your done dude. Maybe. I try not to think about that and just keep try to get back to what one would consider, normal function.

[wckf92]

History, Okay, I will write it again for the understanding of all. I hurt my neck and back significantly about 4 years ago. Maybe one day. There is a slight chance I am done!
Some may think after 4 years your done dude. Maybe. I try not to think about that and just keep try to get back to what one would consider, normal function.

True enough! I recently sustained an injury myself. Sucks. Like you... trying to get back to 'normal'. ;)
Thx man

[boxerbilly]

True enough! I recently sustained an injury myself. Sucks. Like you... trying to get back to 'normal'. ;)
Thx man

Well I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me. Call me out. Call me names. Whatever. If you think I am wrong say so. Hopefully, I am giving ideas to explore if things are not going the way you hoped for. It ain't WC obviously. But I notice similar things and I got lucky finding Duncan. Clearly he is doing things different than I may but he is using that idea.

Or the idea if GJJ/BJJ can cut the learning curve maybe there is some that could do the same for WC ?

Just thoughts, take them or leave them. Explore or don't . No one has to do a **** thing different. Your choice.

[JPinAZ]

History, Okay, I will write it again for the understanding of all. I hurt my neck and back significantly about 4 years ago. Maybe one day. There is a slight chance I am done!
Some may think after 4 years your done dude. Maybe. I try not to think about that and just keep try to get back to what one would consider, normal function.

I hear ya about injuries. I injured my neck and back in a T-bone collision some years ago which limited my ability to do some things for a while. And, I almost cut off 3 fingers last year on a table saw - that slowed me down for a bit! lol
That aside, if ANY art is good for your ailments, it's WC. With it's upright stance, 50/50 weight distribution and power coming from the lower half thru your knees-hips-elbows it's one of the best fighting arts for those with limited mobility and issue similar to yours (since it's aim is to stay upright and move and use as little effort as possible)!

[boxerbilly]

I hear ya about injuries. I injured my neck and back in a T-bone collision some years ago which limited my ability to do some things for a while. And, I almost cut off 3 fingers last year on a table saw - that slowed me down for a bit! lol
That aside, if ANY art is good for your ailments, it's WC. With it's upright stance, 50/50 weight distribution and power coming from the lower half thru your knees-hips-elbows it's one of the best fighting arts for those with limited mobility and issue similar to yours (since it's aim is to stay upright and move and use as little effort as possible)!

Oldmans WC, LOL.

I used to work in a cabinet shop. We also built custom doors and windows. Scary stuff. I was always fearful of the jointer but the table saw was next in that line.
Lucky no major mishaps aside from scares.

I had my right forearm rebuilt. I severed the extensor tendons and the muscle was cut to bone. I almost died. I can not make a fist and bend it inwards.

Again, any and everyone. Speak up and speak out against me if clearly I am wrong. I know I am but I'll probably still post, lol. But they could learn from you.

[Grumblegeezer]

... Speak up and speak out against me if clearly I am wrong. I know I am but I'll probably still post, lol. But they could learn from you.

YOU'RE WRONG!

Sorry, but you asked for it. :p

OK, truth be told, your posting here has really livened up this forum. Please continue. And about those injuries. I have more than a few myself. Bad back, knees and ankles. Getting older is the worst. So yeah, I pretty much only do "Old Man's WC". But I'm still lovin' it. And, after all I'm just a kid next to Joy (Vajramusdi). So, I'll let you younger guys do the heavy "pressure testing" and try to learn something from the sidelines. Carry on, kids!

[wckf92]

Back when I first started learning WC...I heard it was sometimes referred to as the lazy mans kung fu. (due to the compact and efficient nature I guess). No high kicks, or flashy moves... :D

[boxerbilly]

LOL.

I said that because sometimes I feel like an oldman. Reminded of my grandfather on days I am really tight. Who want to be that? Yet, who can escape it?

[boxerbilly]

YOU'RE WRONG!

Sorry, but you asked for it. :p

OK, truth be told, your posting here has really livened up this forum. Please continue. And about those injuries. I have more than a few myself. Bad back, knees and ankles. Getting older is the worst. So yeah, I pretty much only do "Old Man's WC". But I'm still lovin' it. And, after all I'm just a kid next to Joy (Vajramusdi). So, I'll let you younger guys do the heavy "pressure testing" and try to learn something from the sidelines. Carry on, kids!


I am limited at what I can continue with. There are a lot of things you guys do that I have not a clue. I may look at it and say, that will never, ever work. I don't care what you believe. Try it. But that would be probably be not completely correct because if I searched long enough I could probably find someone that is doing it in a way that I can believe and understand. At this age and things I have asked guys to do to me so I could feel it. There is a lot I do not understand. Example, I asked a daoist guy out of Mu Dong to hit me with one of his internal punches. I thought, it is bullcrap. Has to be a trick. If I can feel it I man be able to figure out how he is sinking his weight into me.
Well he hit me in the chest after telling me no a few times and me saying, the phone book test he was doing sucked. Yeah, you are pushing me back. But big deal. Then I felt it. Okay, that's real. I have no idea what he did. I still do not think he could pull it off exchanging blows but if he had the chance to nail a guy with it first thing. Probably going to work out pretty good.

[Wayfaring]

For example: If I said to a student "I can make you "functional" in six months"... then I would. BUT, that means six months, training at least 3 classes a week minimum; putting in the road work outside of class; etc. MOST do not want or can't do that. MOST don't want to pay money to get beaten down and crushed class after class. The gauntlet isn't for everyone. Most just want to put on a cool looking kung fu uniform, do some forms, bow to someone, go home and watch yip man movies some more. Rinse and repeat.

The fighters I know do 2 a days - 3 days a week while in camp. One full day rest one light day rest, and conditioning on their own. In that time mma coaches are helping them with diet and water intake.

I actually don't know ANY kung fu students like this. 8-10 training sessions per week plus outside conditioning. I know a couple boxers who have training schedules like this.


So did you guys want to talk more about how you're going to turn middle aged businessmen into killers able to handle mma fighters?

[guy b.]

The fighters I know do 2 a days - 3 days a week while in camp. One full day rest one light day rest, and conditioning on their own. In that time mma coaches are helping them with diet and water intake.

I actually don't know ANY kung fu students like this. 8-10 training sessions per week plus outside conditioning. I know a couple boxers who have training schedules like this.


So did you guys want to talk more about how you're going to turn middle aged businessmen into killers able to handle mma fighters?

There are many people training wing chun on a daily basis

[JPinAZ]

There are many people training wing chun on a daily basis

I'm confused at your point because you also imply it takes most likely years before someone is even functional with WC since you repeatedly claim one needs to go thru SNT, CK, Chi Sau, pole and dummy before 'functional skill' with WC can be developed.
You're saying it takes that long even while training every day?? IMO that's a crazy amount of time before one has developed 'functional skill' in any MA, let alone WC - and most likely points to inefficiencies in a teacher and/or curriculum vs inefficiencies in the system itself. If this is the really case, it also sounds like someone probably needs to expand their WC experience a bit more :)

While WC is surely unique in it's principle-based focus towards fighting, it isn't so unique that it should take sooo much longer to develop functional skill than the many arts out there that can do it in much shorter time period. That's not the WC I know - just the opposite actually. WC is supposed to be an fighting system based on efficiency and designed to build skill quickly. Looking at it as some mystical 'traditional' system that takes years before any usable skill is built is a gross misunderstanding of why the WC system was even developed in the first place.

[guy b.]

I'm confused at your point because you also imply it takes most likely years before someone is even functional with WC since you repeatedly claim one needs to go thru SNT, CK, Chi Sau, pole and dummy before 'functional skill' with WC can be developed

You do seem confused. The method of wing chun is the system. You need to learn it to be functional in it. How many years does it take a person to do that in your wing chun? How long is a piece of string, lol.

Many wing chun groups spin it out far too much, in my opinion.


You're saying it takes that long even while training every day?? IMO that's a crazy amount of time before one has developed 'functional skill' in any MA, let alone WC - and most likely points to inefficiencies in a teacher and/or curriculum vs inefficiencies in the system itself. If this is the really case, it also sounds like someone probably needs to expand their WC experience a bit more :)

I don't think I aid anything about a length of time, apart from saying 3 months not long enough for anyone to be functional in the system of wing chun, even the most naturally gifted


While WC is surely unique in it's principle-based focus towards fighting

Many traditional CMA take a principle based approach. BJJ takes a principle based approach. It isn't unique


it isn't so unique that it should take sooo much longer to develop functional skill than the many arts out there that can do it in much shorter time period. That's not the WC I know - just the opposite actually. WC is supposed to be an fighting system based on efficiency and designed to build skill quickly. Looking at it as some mystical 'traditional' system that takes years before any usable skill is built is a gross misunderstanding of why the WC system was even developed in the first place

There is a long way between 3 months and "sooo much longer". You are not arguing against anything I actually said


WC is supposed to be an fighting system based on efficiency and designed to build skill quickly. Looking at it as some mystical 'traditional' system that takes years before any usable skill is built is a gross misunderstanding of why the WC system was even developed in the first place

Wing chun is a traditional system with a particular method. If you don't follow the method you don't end up with wing chun. It takes as long as it takes.

[JPinAZ]

Same pattern again...


You do seem confused. The method of wing chun is the system. You need to learn it to be functional in it. How many years does it take a person to do that in your wing chun? How long is a piece of string, lol.

Vague and avoiding. You know, you can just say "I don't know", it's a perfectly acceptable answer :)
And of course I'm confused - you are all over the place with your non-answers!


Many wing chun groups spin it out far too much, in my opinion.

vague


I don't think I aid anything about a length of time, apart from saying 3 months not long enough for anyone to be functional in the system of wing chun, even the most naturally gifted

Yes, you are good at avoiding questions and not backing up your claims - I'm glad you are able to see that too!
Does make me wonder, how does one become an authority in what doesn't work, yet totally unable to explain what does....


There is a long way between 3 months and "sooo much longer".

Gee, couldn't get any more vague than that. TBH I have no idea what you're even talking about now.

Look, it's really simple. You've been pretty vocal about what doesn't work and even went a bit further with you formula for developing 'functional WC' (SNT, CK, Chi Sau, Dummy & Pole), why can't you tell long it takes? Hell, take a guess if you don't really know. I would think for someone to feel as strongly as you do about something, you could answer such a simple question rather easily. I mean, you do base your opinions on actual experience and not just guesses and theory right?
I think most people that claim to be teaching WC would guess it should take an average person training every day at least a couple of years to go thru that material. And I argue that if it takes that long before WC starts to become functional, then they are doing something drastically wrong!

Yet you continue to avoid the question like the plague. Haha, maybe you are only an expert on doesn't work ;)


You are not arguing against anything I actually said

Is that so? Eh, I guess you're right since you apparently haven't really said anything (as you even pointed out).


Wing chun is a traditional system with a particular method. If you don't follow the method you don't end up with wing chun. It takes as long as it takes.

Again, vague and more avoiding. Thanks for not sharing..

[guy b.]

You know, you can just say "I don't know", it's a perfectly acceptable answer :)
And of course I'm confused - you are all over the place with your non-answers!

I do know..it depends on the person and the situation. Of course, you know this.


Vague

What's vague about saying many groups take too long to teach the curriculum?


Yes, you are good at avoiding questions and not backing up your claims - I'm glad you are able to see that too!
Does make me wonder, how does one become an authority in what doesn't work, yet totally unable to explain what does....

I responded to the thread. You pretended I said something else. Not avoiding anything. Ask me whatever you like and I will answer


Look, it's really simple. You've been pretty vocal about what doesn't work and even went a bit further with you formula for developing 'functional WC' (SNT, CK, Chi Sau, Dummy & Pole), why can't you tell long it takes?

It depends on the person and the training situation. 3 months is a sorter time than even the most gifted person can manage though.


Hell, take a guess if you don't really know. I would think for someone to feel as strongly as you do about something, you could answer such a simple question rather easily. I mean, you do base your opinions on actual experience and not just guesses and theory right?

It's a stupid question


I think most people that claim to be teaching WC would guess it should take an average person training every day at least a couple of years to go thru that material. And I argue that if it takes that long before WC starts to become functional, then they are doing something drastically wrong!

Lol


Is that so? Eh, I guess you're right since you apparently haven't really said anything (as you even pointed out).

If I didn't say anything then what are you arguing about?


Again, vague and more avoiding. Thanks for not sharing..

There is nothing evasive is stating that you need to follow the wing chun method to end up with wing chun. You can't put wing chun into a person via short cuts because it is a sequential method that builds upon what came before. If you miss bits you don't end up with wing chun

[guy b.]

I am wondering; why are you such a dishonest person JPinAZ? What's the point of it?

[JPinAZ]

Not avoiding anything. Ask me whatever you like and I will answer

Sure, and when I do you answer in the same thread..

It's a stupid question

...you avoid it again and just continue with these childish games - you can't be even be honest for one post!
It's easy to see you're just full of sh!t, so no need to go further with your nonsense. Take my answer however you like, I'm done with you.

[guy b.]

I'm done with you.

It isn't answerable in the way you want me to answer it, it is variable. Giving a number is stupid.

If this fact makes you want never to talk to me on a forum again then that is ok

[chaotic2k]

Just a question out of curiosity. What are people's Martial art experience and what branch of wing chun do you guys practice ? How many years have you trained? Many thanks ;)