How would you block a hook punch?

[edward]

Gave several examples and went over how to properly block a hook punch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXsjxU6E0-M

[boxerbilly]

Gave several examples and went over how to properly block a hook punch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXsjxU6E0-M


Good work Ed. Thank you. Good stuff.

Would you be willing to put on head gear and have , I believe you said his name was Robert, put on a boxing glove, and take swipes at your head. Fast as he can when he is ready, no cues. He can just make it speed and take as much of the umph out of it as he is able. Test each of your demos and see which one works best for you ?

Maybe then shorten the range a little bit and see how well each work for you. I would say start hands up but also try hands down which generally is the case when people nail you. Or just try the ideal way.

[JPinAZ]

For the first few 'wrong' examples, I can agree with the premise they are 'wrong' from WC principle POV.
The last way shown as the 'right way' is relying too-heavily on overcoming speed with speed and lucky time fighting (even if you are taking the shorter distance). Being that your opponent initiated the action, without also engaging & neutralizing the attack, you are still going to be a step behind. So, you might pull it off, or if they are faster and/or your timing is off even a little bit, you will most likely still get hit. And, this only works if you know a hook is being throw ahead of time. What if you got it wrong and it was a straight line cross?

Regarding WC principle, IMO this is still ignoring some pretty basic WC principles such as WC Gate Theories, Loi Lau Hoi Sung/Lut Sau Jeet Chun, as well as simultaneous offence/defense. So while this is a basic first step in the right directions compared to the other examples, it still has a way to go to being 'correct' as far as I understnad Wc Principle...
Good thing this one was for free :) lol

** But I do agree with B.Billy - would be a good contrast to see you gear up and have someone actually trying to take your head off with one of these punches (and that knows how to throw them) and see if this defense still holds up!

[boxerbilly]

For the first few 'wrong' examples, I can agree with the premise they are 'wrong' from WC principle POV.
The last way shown as the 'right way' is relying too-heavily on overcoming speed with speed and lucky time fighting (even if you are taking the shorter distance). Being that your opponent initiated the action, without also engaging & neutralizing the attack, you are still going to be a step behind. So, you might pull it off, or if they are faster and/or your timing is off even a little bit, you will most likely still get hit. And, this only works if you know a hook is being throw ahead of time. What if you got it wrong and it was a straight line cross?

Regarding WC principle, IMO this is still ignoring some pretty basic WC principles such as WC Gate Theories, Loi Lau Hoi Sung/Lut Sau Jeet Chun, as well as simultaneous offence/defense. So while this is a basic first step in the right directions compared to the other examples, it still has a way to go to being 'correct' as far as I understnad Wc Principle...
Good thing this one was for free :) lol

** But I do agree with B.Billy - would be a good contrast to see you gear up and have someone actually trying to take your head off with one of these punches (and that knows how to throw them) and see if this defense still holds up!

That is a point. Really find out. Is it working the way it should be right out the box ? I suggest not having your head taken off. Maybe after you are certain you have the right way for you , move to that. Till then fast as he can with as much force take off as he is able. This is just to see. You will know fairly quickly if something works, does not or is close. Then you may have to put in time to get it smoothed out. But as one stands today with the confidence they may have in something. You could go find out but make it as safe as you can. Also, some things may only work well if you are in a ready position of some type.

[JPinAZ]

That is a point. Really find out. Is it working the way it should be right out the box ? I suggest not having your head taken off. Maybe after you are certain you have the right way for you , move to that. Till then fast as he can with as much force take off as he is able. This is just to see. You will know fairly quickly if something works, does not or is close. Then you may have to put in time to get it smoothed out. But as one stands today with the confidence they may have in something. You could go find out but make it as safe as you can. Also, some things may only work well if you are in a ready position of some type.

Lots of things 'work' that don't necessarily follow WC principle.

[wckf92]

:(

Well, I got an 'F' for my grade at Kirin university... hahaha

[YouKnowWho]

Lots of things 'work' that don't necessarily follow WC principle.

I have noticed that you like to mention "follow WC principle".

- Do you train any other MA system besides WC?
- Can you explain what are "don't follow WC principle"? It's easy to understand "follow WC principle". It's hard to understand "don't follow WC principle".
- Will you not do certain moves because it "doesn't follow WC principle"?

[boxerbilly]

John, I tried to pm you with some questions unrelated to WC. Your box is full.

Edit: I came across your email on your site. I emailed you.

[YouKnowWho]

John, I tried to pm you with some questions unrelated to WC. Your box is full.

Edit: I came across your email on your site. I emailed you.

I have responded to your E-mail. My answer to your E-mail is

"yes, yes, and yes".

I have trained WC from one of Yip Man's student Jimmy Kao since 1973.

[boxerbilly]

I have responded to your E-mail. My answer to your E-mail is

"yes, yes, and yes".

I have trained WC from one of Yip Man's student Jimmy Kao since 1973.

Thanks. I did receive the 3 yes for the pm on forum.

Are you also saying 3 yes's for the question unrelated to WC I emailed you at your yahoo account in regard to GM Chang ?

No need to answer. I just received your email.

Thank you sir.

[JPinAZ]

John,

Why are you questioning my background? I boxed before learning WC and have been in my share of 'street fights' when I was a lot younger. I've also trained basic CMA kicking/striking/chi na applications. While I feel this gave me a good background to compare/contrast what's efficient and what's not while learning WC, my past experience has little to do with my ability to discuss the WC system.
We all know you've studied a lot of different things, and that TCMA grappling (shuai jaio) is what you primarily do, which is most likely why you always steer the conversation in that non-WC direction. Some here in the past have questioned just how much WC you actually learned beyond the forms some 40 years ago. I for one don't care one way or the other what your background is, as it's our understanding today that matters - either we know the system or we don't.

I thought my answers were pretty clear in the examples I gave in my above post #3. Doesn't follow WC principle should be pretty simple for anyone that's studied WC beyond just the basics. One good example is "No Centerline, no Wing Chun". If someone doesn't understand/adhere to the most basic WC principle of centerline, then they are not 'doing WC'.

Back to my point, just because 'something works' doesn't make it WC. WC is more than just some techniques or 'what works'. A spinning backfist or roundhouse kick might 'work', but violates WC's most basic of centerline, gate thoery and efficiency/economy of motion ideas. Again, this should be pretty simple stuff for anyone that's studied WC.

[guy b.]

I have noticed that you like to mention "follow WC principle".

- Do you train any other MA system besides WC?
- Can you explain what are "don't follow WC principle"? It's easy to understand "follow WC principle". It's hard to understand "don't follow WC principle".
- Will you not do certain moves because it "doesn't follow WC principle"?


You seem to be on a mission to move any discussion from wing chun to other arts and different approaches.

You have your current attack on JPinAZ backwards by the way: "don't follow wing chun principle" is very easy to understand by a process of falsification. "Follow wing chun principle" is much more difficult because you are attempting to verify

[Phil Redmond]

Gave several examples and went over how to properly block a hook punch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXsjxU6E0-M
Those were round punches not hooks. You can't get inside of a proper tight hook. You have to treat it as an elbow strike.

[JPinAZ]

Those were round punches not hooks. You can't get inside of a proper tight hook. You have to treat it as an elbow strike.

I agree, they weren't hooks.
IMO, you can get inside a tight hook, but you have to be on the inside position already before it's thrown (in order to throw the hook, they have to work their way into that range). Otherwise yes, treat it as an elbow.

[Grumblegeezer]

I agree, they weren't hooks.
IMO, you can get inside a tight hook, but you have to be on the inside position already before it's thrown (in order to throw the hook, they have to work their way into that range). Otherwise yes, treat it as an elbow.

See, a lot of it is situational. I like what you are saying JP, but I also think Phil made a great point about handling a tight hook like an elbow. What I don't feel comfortable with are any of the solutions in Edward's video. You can't depend on "solution four" to stop a good hook. Even a loose haymaker may continue through and you end up trading. Edward posts like it's a sure thing. Heck, boxers train against hooks constantly, ...and constantly land them too!

[boxerbilly]

See, a lot of it is situational. I like what you are saying JP, but I also think Phil made a great point about handling a tight hook like an elbow. What I don't feel comfortable with are any of the solutions in Edward's video. You can't depend on "solution four" to stop a good hook. Even a loose haymaker may continue through and you end up trading. Edward posts like it's a sure thing. Heck, boxers train against hooks constantly, ...and constantly land them too!

Most of us that boxed got constantly hit by them too!

Sorry, to explain better. We take them on the arms and glove's. Better guys can slip them too.

But what does that tell you ? Here is a bunch of guys doing an art the specializes in punching and defending against those same punches and we get hit more than we do not.

[Phil Redmond]

I agree, they weren't hooks.
IMO, you can get inside a tight hook, but you have to be on the inside position already before it's thrown (in order to throw the hook, they have to work their way into that range). Otherwise yes, treat it as an elbow.
The double lan saos in the SLT form are like the tight hook I'm referring to. If you dropped one arm and made a fist with the other arm you have a really tight hook. You cannot get inside that.

[Phil Redmond]

http://youtu.be/xonV1-cz8D4

[Phil Redmond]

Examples of a good hook.
http://youtu.be/sPkF-Oj3FBU


http://youtu.be/o6j_YAXcpMA

Freddy Roach on the hook becoming an elbow strike in dirty fighting around :59
http://youtu.be/vmAFFvdGc_o

[boxerbilly]

Phil. That's what I mean ! Thank you sir. Just great stuff. Just amazing. I hope everyone appreciates Phil taking the time to make this for us. I certainly do.

[JPinAZ]

Thanks Phil - I know exactly what you're talking about and appreciate the difference between a 'round punch' and a 'hook punch'! When I was training boxing, that tight hook was my favorite punch ;)

While I do agree, in most instances you can't get 'inside' if they are already standing that close and throw it, there is plenty of opportunity to deal with it as they close to than range. In the 3 latter clips you shared, they show good breakdown of the hook, but don't discuss how to set it up. In yours, you do a great job describing the range and tightness of the tool and also contrasting to a round punch. But you also show in your demo (@0:30) that it takes several steps to get into the range that it works in.

I guess what I was getting at is, in order to land that punch, it has to be set up - it's not typically thrown from a long distance. Unless the fight starts almost nose-to-nose, the 'boxer' has a lot of distance to cover as they work their way in. Which in turn provides a lot of opportunity to deal with the hook attempt on their way in and stay on the inside and not allow them to get that short tight technique range. If we are using WC as it's designed, they should already be bridged and/or getting hit & having their COG disrupted long before they can get into that close space. They have to cross our 2-lines offense/defense as well as our gate & box thoeries to use it - as you are pointing out later in your clip.

Of course not everything works out as planned lol. And if they do get into that range, we've done something wrong (or they were just that good) and you're surely going to have to deal with it differently, exactly as you point out. Maybe in the end, we're saying the same thing :)

** BTW, I 100% agree with your example of how to deal with the round punch from an open stance. This is part of our long range Cheurn Kiu Sau 6-gate bridging strategies (we call the application Loi Lap Sau). It also works well against straight leads once we first cover the centerline with the tiu sau - good stuff!

[boxerbilly]

Unless the fight starts almost nose-to-nose, the 'boxer' has a lot of distance to cover as they work their way in.

That would be street. In a spar/fight against other styles , you got your other stuff. I posted before if I could only box. I know the way I boxed. I would have great difficulty with that extended lead and **** pole kick slamming my hip. I would have trouble getting into where I need to be. Another style of boxing ? A better boxer ?

edit, I apologize. To be more clear. I am of the belief that when guys are able to touch you stopping anything they throw becomes very difficult. When they get inside that " I can touch you" it is all but impossible for almost everyone. There is a very small percent I believe that can do it most of the time. I do not belong to that group.

For those interested. There is a towel drill. Put a towel over a shoulder so it lays over your chest. Now put your hands down and try to stop your partner from snatching the towel. After you find your answer. Put you hands up and try it again. Different answer? After try different lengths away. Then different angle he tries to take it. If you get to the point yor are smacking arms together. Have him wear forearm guards.

[Grumblegeezer]

Phil. That's what I mean ! Thank you sir. Just great stuff. Just amazing. I hope everyone appreciates Phil taking the time to make this for us. I certainly do.

This forum needs a "thank-you" button, big time. And an "agree" button. Both you and Phil make great points. I especially like the "lan-sau" and the "bong-sau" like movements within the "European Hook". You guys see the similarities too ...or an I just eating rancid carrots again? :D