Iron Hand Against Grapplers

[wiz cool c]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

[Frost]

Im fairly sure the 1990s are calling and wants its thread back BUT on the off change you are being serious I will actually respond
SAID is the principle at work here
Unless you practise your iron hand from a sprawl position or from a bent over position as you are flying through the air it probably wont help that much other than making sure you don’t break your hand if you do happen to hit him, its not like a wrestler will shoot in and stop there allowing you to root then hit, he will blow right through you unless you are sprawling and striking from a position with the hips down, head up and leg back and your body on top of their head isn’t something most people practise

[wiz cool c]

what’s the problem this is a kung fu message board and I am staring a topic on kung fu, hard to understand? Can you keep the cornball remarks to yourself? How about that for starters. I don’t know about this topic being old, but that 90s thread is calling has been used to death. and do you really practice iron hand training at all? or are you assuming a grappler is the end all be all of everything, since it is what is currently fashionable. another question have you competed in judo,jujutsu or other grappling competitions before?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

Iron hand forging doesn't do anything for fighting ability.
It only conditions that hand for impact.
The only way it can be effective VS a trained grappler is by training to deal with a trained grappler.
If a fighter can, due to proper training, hit a grappler then his/her blows will be all the more effective with proper hand conditioning BUT if they can't hit a grappler PROPERLY then all the hand conditioning in the world will make no difference.
Of course this applies to anyone, not just a grappler.

[boxerbilly]

what’s the problem this is a kung fu message board and I am staring a topic on kung fu, hard to understand? Can you keep the cornball remarks to yourself? How about that for starters. I don’t know about this topic being old, but that 90s thread is calling has been used to death. and do you really practice iron hand training at all? or are you assuming a grappler is the end all be all of everything, since it is what is currently fashionable. another question have you competed in judo,jujutsu or other grappling competitions before?


That is a good question. Thanks. I don't know. But, we have plenty of examples where striking down on someone taking you down generally is not very effective. It very well could work. The possibility is there but the odds are low. It generally does not end it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is a good question. Thanks. I don't know. But, we have plenty of examples where striking down on someone taking you down generally is not very effective. It very well could work. The possibility is there but the odds are low. It generally does not end it.

Striking down isn't the issue.
The issue is that unless you train striking down on someone coming at you like a trained grappler does then it simply has very little chance of working.

[Jimbo]

As SR said, it would have to be tested against a trained wrestler, and not someone pretending to be a wrestler and trying to approximate how a real wrestler might shoot in. Similar to any time a question (or example) of how or whether (name the style or skill) would work against a (wrestler, boxer, BJJ guy, MT guy, CLF guy, etc.) is put forward. Not to mention in this case, you would also have to not be worried about or hesitant to hit him full-force if you had the opportunity to do so. Even if someone landed that one iron palm strike on the wrestler, there's no guarantee it would stop him or even slow him down. You'd still need leverage for it, which would be near impossible with him shooting in. There wouldn't be time for a second strike. There are too many variable factors, and the momentum is on his side.

Not a bad question, wiz cool c, but as you said, probably not really testable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As SR said, it would have to be tested against a trained wrestler, and not someone pretending to be a wrestler and trying to approximate how a real wrestler might shoot in. Similar to any time a question (or example) of how or whether (name the style or skill) would work against a (wrestler, boxer, BJJ guy, MT guy, CLF guy, etc.) is put forward. Not to mention in this case, you would also have to not be worried about or hesitant to hit him full-force if you had the opportunity to do so. Even if someone landed that one iron palm strike on the wrestler, there's no guarantee it would stop him or even slow him down. You'd still need leverage for it, which would be near impossible with him shooting in. There wouldn't be time for a second strike. There are too many variable factors, and the momentum is on his side.

Not a bad question, wiz cool c, but as you said, probably not really testable.

Indeed.
I have not fought ( for real) any grappler since I started doing IH all those years ago BUT a few years ago me and some friends were fooling around ( all 3 of us have been doing MA for decades) with what I can do with my IH ( breaking bricks, slabs, silliness like that) and I remarked that, fighting wise it (breaking stuff) doesn't mean much at all since people move and hit back.
One of my buddies remembered he had an old motorcycle helmet and decided to put it on so I can test hitting a moving target.
being the idiots that were were ( beer and whatnot) I said,"sure, why not?".
Well, long story short, at one point he shot in, I countered, moved and got position and slammed and solid shot to the helmet.
It cracked and it rung his bell for sure.

That is as close as I have gotten to really hitting someone hard with IH under the context of this thread.

For whatever its worth.

[bawang]

lol @ defending takedown with horse stance

[mickey]

Greetings,

Whether you have Iron Palm or not, it is important to strike with speed and power, as well as knowing where to hit. Fighting experience is also necessary. Iron hand alone will do nothing by itself.

mickey

[MightyB]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown.

9627

Probably yes, but not without some serious training.


The Insanely Underrated Takedown Defense of Anderson Silva (http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/6/27/4468402/ufc-162-anderson-silva-weidman-judo-chop-takedown-defense-sonnen-henderson)
While not an elite wrestler by any means, Silva has developed a very functional and effective MMA wrestling game that has stalemated much more credentialed wrestlers. His game is based around a few key concepts:

Distance Control
Use of Angles
Wide Base



Here's something to consider: Many people who claim to be grapplers are pretty f***ing awful at grappling.

[wiz cool c]

Striking down isn't the issue.
The issue is that unless you train striking down on someone coming at you like a trained grappler does then it simply has very little chance of working.

this i agree with [unfortunately i don’t have many partners to practice with these days], and one way to do it would be to use those old karate style foam style head gear and some pretty soft gloves, as well as having your partner react properly understanding that you are both wearing protective gear and he is not taking the blunt force o the strike. i got to disagree with the[ iron hand training hands nothing to do with fighting], actually i got to say it is about the dumbest thing i have ever heard, that’s like saying thai boxers don’t drill their kicks into pads or bags for hours at a time for fighting. forging your hand to be extremely hard and be able to deliver it with intense power is used for fighting, or was created originally for this.

I think a major problem here is people are quick to throw away or lose faith in their system, and are quick to jump on a band wagon. for example the stances of kung fu are designed to create stability and resist takedowns, and these downward strike surely in some systems where designed to strike down on a charging guy shooting in at your waist or legs, in fact i vaguely remember a hung gar teacher explaining this to me long time ago.

now in this day and age everyone cross trains. i personally have competed in judo and jujutsu competitions before, also trained in sombo for some time. people are so quick to disregard their systems for what’s popular. reminds me of a story i heard about the cultural revolution, where one day they love and respected their teachers, and the next day they are spitting and ridiculing them when they were told they are of the old way.


the people doubting the effectiveness of their systems techniques may be training incorrectly or may need to dig deeper into their systems training methods. For example stand 40 minutes daily, train conditioning your body with traditional two man drills and iron body skills, these are what makes kung fu effective, not just forms with kick boxing.

[mickey]

Greetings,

wiz cool c,

If you are feeling so strong about this, find out for yourself. Just because sanjuro ronin had a particular experience does not mean that it will happen for you that way. Take the odyssey and get back to us with your findings. That will be the only way for you to really know.

mickey

[wiz cool c]

lol @ defending takedown with horse stance

why do you even bother doing kung fu if you think this way? not to mention you spend all your time on a kung fu a message board when instead you could be out dating or socializing like normal people your age, when you dont even believe in what you do. man why dont you just find a high bridge and jump off it already, you obviously hate your life [and kung fu is not helping.]

[wiz cool c]

Greetings,

wiz cool c,

If you are feeling so strong about this, find out for yourself. Just because sanjuro ronin had a particular experience does not mean that it will happen for you that way. Take the odyssey and get back to us with your findings. That will be the only way for you to really know.

mickey

maybe because i am 44 years old now and had reconstructive surgery on my knee in china without physical therapy after, so don’t need to risk crippling myself to prove to you I’m a tough guy, thanks for the suggestion though. as i mentioned i have competed in grappling tournaments before. i also truly believe the old school iron hand master were training in these methods to kill people or main someone for good, not sporting events

[mickey]

wiz cool c,

Sad to hear about your knee.

If you feel the need to do Iron Palm as a part of your training arsenal, do it. But understand something: in a real situation you will not know what your opponent knows. So it pays to be well rounded. Case in point: there were some MA retailers in NYC that trained in a branch of Southern Shaolin. When Gracie Jiu Jitsu hit the scene, they were not trashing it at all. They were intrigued enough to look at it, even if just from a book, to assess its strengths and weaknesses. And they were really pushing the books from that perspective. I respected them for that.

mickey

[wiz cool c]

wiz cool c,

Sad to hear about your knee.

If you feel the need to do Iron Palm as a part of your training arsenal, do it. But understand something: in a real situation you will not know what your opponent knows. So it pays to be well rounded. Case in point: there were some MA retailers in NYC that trained in a branch of Southern Shaolin. When Gracie Jiu Jitsu hit the scene, they were not trashing it at all. They were intrigued enough to look at it, even if just from a book, to assess its strengths and weaknesses. And they were really pushing the books from that perspective. I respected them for that.

mickey

As I had mentioned twice here already I have competed in judo and jujutsu competetions before,as well as having trained in sombo as well, you have competed in grappling competitions before yourself? And yes I train in iron hand training cause I am a kung fu practitioner, as well as having done shuai jiao/MMA under Yao Honggang,ever heard of him? His brother fights in the UFC now and Yao is a pro MMA fighter from china with many pro fights under his belt as well as being a shuai jiao master and champion and a purple belt in BJJ

[Kellen Bassette]

lol @ defending takedown with horse stance

Horse stance is very useful in stuffing takedowns. You don't need to sprawl if you catch him before he gets deep.

[mickey]

OoooKay,

You are talking about sport competition. I am out of this thread.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

I think a major problem here is people are quick to throw away or lose faith in their system, ...
Agree! A valid solution is a valid solution. It doesn't matter whether it's CMA solution or MMA solution.

When your opponent shoots at your leg, if you can put your hands behind his neck, redirect him to the ground, and let him to kiss dirt, you should be able to strike your hand on the back of his head. A strike on the back of your opponent's head is a very good "finish move".

9629

[wiz cool c]

Agree! A valid solution is a valid solution. It doesn't matter whether it's CMA solution or MMA solution.

When your opponent shoots at your leg, if you can put your hands behind his neck and let him to kiss dirt, you should be able to strike your hand on the back of his head. A strike on the back of your opponent's head is a very good "finish move".

9629


Interesting John, have been thinking of this one in my head as well, slapping a guy in the back of the head or neck with IP strike. I learned something like this back in my ninjutsu days, but recently realized the Iron hand training makes your slaps very heavy when i slapped a mosquito on the back of my neck.

[YouKnowWho]

Interesting John, have been thinking of this one in my head as well, slapping a guy in the back of the head or neck with IP strike. I learned something like this back in my ninjutsu days, but recently realized the Iron hand training makes your slaps very heavy when i slapped a mosquito on the back of my neck.

Instead of using both of your hands to push down on your opponent's back neck, if you just use one hand to push and another hand to do "willow palm" strike, even if you may not be able to knock your opponent out, you can still make him to "kiss the dirt".

[wiz cool c]

interesting, in the ninjutsu version we did a double handed slap downward on the base of the skull can honestly say i have not tried that technique in competition nor a real fight though. in the Beijing Shaui Jiao we did single leg takedown attempt defense by hooking one leg inside the attackers leg pushing down on the back of his neck and grabbing his leg with the other hand and dumping him over. i vaguely remember the hung gar instructor demonstrating a single hand downward slap while stepping back in a front stance[i know hung gar people train IP so fair to say it is a IP technique. is there a strike in that sequence above Jonh? cant tell

[YouKnowWho]

To strike on the back of your opponent's head is a very important CMA skill. The "抹(Mo) - Wiping" that you use your hand to pull your opponent's back neck toward you can be replaced by a "willow palm" strike on the back of the head. So IP can be used by a grappler on a striker as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZxZ09MYjSM

[YouKnowWho]

Here is another example of "抹(Mo) - Wiping". If you can do this, you can use your IP to strike on the back of your opponent's head.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDLGaV1Hdkk&feature=youtu.be

[bawang]

Horse stance is very useful in stuffing takedowns. You don't need to sprawl if you catch him before he gets deep.

lol
hkjhkh

[-N-]

A strike on the back of your opponent's head is a very good "finish move".


Side of head requires less force against force and is easier to cause hemorrhage.

[MightyB]

Horse stance is very useful in stuffing takedowns. You don't need to sprawl if you catch him before he gets deep.

Check that Silva article I posted earlier and it describes the process of why this statement is true and how you can use a wide stance to shut down takedown attempts.

[boxerbilly]

Great stuff John. Thank you.

GuyB. Thanks for the link. Sometimes we "read" horse-stance and we see static position with an upright body practicing reverse punches. A still picture. ( Other's may see a side stance application if it) Peoples mind work that way. They forget their can be movement in that stance. Wrestling stance. Basically a moving horse stance. Some guys stager. Some guys more square.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wji1jm_kEM

[Frost]

Instead of using both of your hands to push down on your opponent's back neck, if you just use one hand to push and another hand to do "willow palm" strike, even if you may not be able to knock your opponent out, you can still make him to "kiss the dirt".

Umm no one shoots like that with there legs back back bent and arms reaching, it only works if your partner has no idea about grappling or cant put there knee down on the shot, heck even on a high shot your knee penetrates between there's so making them eat dirt next to useless

[Frost]

Check that Silva article I posted earlier and it describes the process of why this statement is true and how you can use a wide stance to shut down takedown attempts.

Silva had a great clinch game, very long levers and the best defensive wrestling coach going, the same guy who taught Aldo and Penn, taking a wide stance opens you up to a single or a body lock which is what Henderson and sonnen hit him with.

[Subitai]

IMO, if you want to learn how to strike a grappler...learn to grapple yourself and then find the available holes in the game. It's that simple.

What's interesting to me here is that a lot of points or (weaknesses) to address have been made and a person could choose to take up the cross for any one of them.

Lets looks at some facts, assuming you're the attacker:

From an mma grappler standpoint, I need to enter in without taking significant damage and bring you down. Frost basically talks about lowering his level properly...Love it. But the reason a grappler does it so well is because he sets up his opponent 1st and then takes advantage of that. Of course you don't start from 4' away, unless you know he's just tired and can't move. Then anything might work.

However, if you have some form of control (a arm or a leg) 1st and are close enough, Ala what JOHN is alluding to; you don't need to lower your level in a collegiate style takedown.

If i'm a striker, i'm dealing with potential long range to close up very quickly. One of the 1st issues in this concept is controlling the distance and also how much SPACE do you have or control. If i'm in a football field i can take my space differently then when i'm forced into a cage. THATS a fact!!

In my experience this is where things get hairy and allot of guys think that striking is all about damage and hurting the other guy. But there are other methods like striking to push or pull (usually down or lift) to create space. You do this by being solid yet agile on your feet. The mistake allot of strikers make IMO is going for the knockout as a stop gap or finish move and when it fails...it fails miserably.

We've all been there, (well most of us) when the pressure is on and you just want to knock the guy out. But learning to relax at that time and let the opportunity happen comes from maturity.

Other observation:
If a guy shoots on me and I lower my level with him and also get hand control for example, yes I can use "in part" a horse stance to help me into my next counter. In that regard, what Kellen said is also possible, it depends on the set up.


to wiz cool c, My take is Iron hand should not be viewed as a finish move... one shot one kill kind of deal. It's a tool like other weapons, I hope you get my drift?


So you see, there is an argument for almost everyone's point if you look at it a certain way.

[YouKnowWho]

So you see, there is an argument for almost everyone's point if you look at it a certain way.
This is why we should just express our opinions and at the same time respect other's opinion.

[MightyB]

This is why we should just express our opinions and at the same time respect other's opinion.

Exactly
....

[MightyB]

Horse stance is very useful in stuffing takedowns. You don't need to sprawl if you catch him before he gets deep.

The sprawl is a last resort move. It's what you do when you screwed up and didn't change levels, control the distance by being mobile, use angles, and keep a low base. In other words, you let him catch you!

[YouKnowWho]

Frost basically talks about lowering his level properly...Love it.

If you use Chinese wrestling "single leg", you don't need to drop that low. The nice thing about Chinese wrestling approach is if you can use your right hand to push on your opponent's right shoulder, your opponent's right hand can't punch you. If your opponent tries to punch you with his left hand, you can raise up your right elbow and hide your head next to it (just like the WC Bong Shou) to block that left punch. It's much safer this way if striking is allowed in the wrestling game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TlZeOx7ncU&feature=youtu.be

[YouKnowWho]

I need to enter in without taking significant damage and bring you down.

Agree! The "safe entering" is the key. You can achieve that by disabling your opponent's leading leg (so he can't kick or knee) and both arms (so he can't punch or elbow) while entering.

[Kellen Bassette]

The sprawl is a last resort move. It's what you do when you screwed up and didn't change levels, control the distance by being mobile, use angles, and keep a low base. In other words, you let him catch you!

Exactly, when I am forced to sprawl I'm disappointed, it means I was very nearly taken down.

[boxerbilly]

If you use Chinese wrestling "single leg", you don't need to drop that low. The nice thing about Chinese wrestling approach is if you can use your right hand to push on your opponent's right shoulder, your opponent's right hand can't punch you. If your opponent tries to punch you with his left hand, you can raise up your right elbow and hide your head next to it (just like the WC Bong Shou) to block that left punch. It's much safer this way if striking is allowed in the wrestling game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TlZeOx7ncU&feature=youtu.be

That's a nice move John.

In boxing we call that shoulder push " stops" Shoulder stops, Elbow ( bicep ) stops. Some of the standing grappling you are showing us with your examples were probably very similar to older method of boxing.

[wiz cool c]

Im not trying to turn this into a striker vs grappler thing necessarily. In the Shaolin Kung Fu I have been doing for the past several years[I have done many martial arts since my early teens]they usually incorporate a grab pull with one hand and a strike with the other hand, so actually many of the techniques are a combination of grappling striking.

I also practice a Shaolin method called Iron Bone Fist, which I haven’t gotten to use on anyone yet[hopefully never have to] that make your fist really hard.im not sure how this would be used against a grappler but do some serious damage to someone’s face.

[wiz cool c]

iron plam/hand, palm is not really an accurate description in that when practices on a bag one does hammer fist knife hands back fist etc. for those who practice these these methods sincerely can you imagine the result of hammer fisting someone in the side of the head if they were on the bottom on the ground and there head had nowhere to go with the floor restricting its movement

[boxerbilly]

Im not trying to turn this into a striker vs grappler thing necessarily. In the Shaolin Kung Fu I have been doing for the past several years[I have done many martial arts since my early teens]they usually incorporate a grab pull with one hand and a strike with the other hand, so actually many of the techniques are a combination of grappling striking.

I also practice a Shaolin method called Iron Bone Fist, which I haven’t gotten to use on anyone yet[hopefully never have to] that make your fist really hard.im not sure how this would be used against a grappler but do some serious damage to someone’s face.

I think most of us realize that. Most arts had/have grappling. Many mainly standing. That was because they evolved out of battlefield arts. Peace time comes. Specialization and sport happens. Things evolve. Some see it as good others as it kills the art. I see it both way but boxing lost its grappling for the most part. We have still have tie ups but no toss.

[Kellen Bassette]

Im not trying to turn this into a striker vs grappler thing necessarily. In the Shaolin Kung Fu I have been doing for the past several years[I have done many martial arts since my early teens]they usually incorporate a grab pull with one hand and a strike with the other hand, so actually many of the techniques are a combination of grappling striking.


I don't make a distinction of kung fu being grappling or striking. Both are integrated and necessary for it to work as it should.

[Cataphract]

Sumotori use their palms against grapplers (other sumotori) all the time. Just saying...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can only speak based on my experience, and that experience includes various types of full contact fighting over a wide range of rulesets ( or no rules).
I am an average grappler AT BEST, I only have a 2nd degree BB in Judo and went as far as purple in BJJ and have competed at the provincial and national level in grappling and have competed in MMA, so take what I am about to say base don my limited experience ( and yes I do view it as limited):
A horse stance VS a takedown attempt by even a moderately skilled grappler will not work and the reasons are obvious to anyone that has ever grappled a skilled grappler.
A sprawl is NOT a last ditch attempt, it is the logical counter to a takedown attempted centered around your legs - you simply remove the target from the reach of the attacker, MA class 101.

BUT back on subject:
The issue in regards to counter a takedown with striking is and always has been this: Momentum and speed.

Unless you are skilled in hitting a moving target when you are NOT rooted and NOT balanced and are able to generate enough force in THAT situation to compromise the attacker structure, it simply will not work well enough.

[Frost]

Yep all other stuff you do: distance, angling, stance height etc is done to make the shot harder and delay them from taking it, if they take the shot and they are in range sprawling is a must, if they shoot from too far away you can level change underhook and shrug off them, but that’s not in on your legs that a desperation shot
Its like saying slipping or covering up is the last ditch response to a cross, nope you can delay the cross with footwork and movement and distance control, but when they are in range to throw the cross its not the last ditch response it’s the logical response
Same here
As for the subject
As poster Merrypranskter said years ago, deal with the takedown first, stop their momentum and then deal out punishment, doing it any other way is asking for trouble
Which is why I said the 90s was asking for their thread back by the way :)

[wiz cool c]

Well this is one difference between sport fighting and fighting for your life. I don’t think in any competition someone is going to aim say a hammer fist strike to the back of someone’s neck,but if some super duper badass wants to come at you in a self defense situation you might just have to do that. You might just have to jab him in the eye with a pen,don’t think mma allows that either, so never say never.


I have competed in a couple of grappling tounements and other sport comptetions before,it does take guts and skill to do that,but I feel there is a big difference between sports and street fights. There was a video up not too long ago of an mma guy at a gas station disrespecting a girl,and then got his ass beat down by the friends of that girl.good example right there. I have been in a decent about of street fights and have used traditional techniques that sherdogers would swear wouldn’t work in a fight.i once used a broken bottle and evasive footwork to fend off three bigger guys on the corner of upper Manhattan outside a bar at 3am,learned those skills from ninjutsu. Maybe I should have pulled guard and went for a triangle choke instead though.

[Frost]

You miss the point, and are bring up ghost arguments , Ronin has fought true NHB where anything goes, the early UFCs banned eye gouges and biting and that’s about it, watch the early matches people tried all sorts of striking against the shot elbows to the head, hammer fists etc , no one got injured and the only knockouts happened where strikes were thrown AFTER the shot had been delt with, Same with the NHB events in Russia and Brazil where head shots elbows etc are allowed no one died, of course of course they didn’t train the iron hand method so what do they know…….
loads of wrestlers have shot on people on the street and can you name 1 example anywhere of anyone having their head caved in or neck Brocken from such an attack it would be in newspapers etc if it had happened

The more you type the sillier this is getting

[wiz cool c]

anything goes mean some rules hun? Were there friends allowed to join in the fight? Where the combatants allowed carrying concealed weapons into the ring? Were they allowed to snuff the other guy before they entered the ring. maybe shank him up while he was in the dressing room? if you answered no to any of those question you need to check your definition of anything goes.

i know a wrestling coach in Beijing [Greco roman] he is a big guy for a chinese, about 6 foot one maybe around 200 ponds. he was with some of his friends in a car and some other guys were in another car and some **** went down over a traffic accident. the coach went over to the car reached in through the open window and grabbed the guy. the guy in the car sliced his hand bad enough for the coach to need stitches and will never be able to form a fist or close his hand completely again. this is not mma is it, as mentioned before i defended myself against three bigger guys on a street corner with evasive footwork and an improvised weapon, but this is valid cause it is not bjj or mma what a joke.i had a ninjutsu teacher that works in rykers island as a guard and uses those skills daily against the inmates, not valid though cause its not sports fighting. I myself have used traditional kung fu and other style techniques in many real fight, not valid cause there wasn’t a referee and it wasn’t mma, get real dude

[MightyB]

You guys talk as if there's a huge population of people out there that even know, or can perform a decent shoot to go for a single or double leg. There's not. BJJ is terrible at it, and Judo doesn't even teach it anymore - so you have wrestling. How many good wrestlers are there? Not many. And - how many people can even physically drop low enough AND take a good penetrating step to get the single or double after 25? Again - if they're not actively practicing it - not many. So you have some people in MMA schools... but again - the population in those schools that are really good at hitting a single or double is low. You get a few of the active, competitive fighters, who aren't going to waste their time picking fights on-da-streetz that are good at the single or double leg takedowns. So what's that leave? Bull-rushers and tacklers. You can deal with these people with a good base, knowing angles, keeping low, and being mobile. And yes, you should know how to sprawl (and escape a mount) if you f**k up and get caught.

As far as IP - I don't know, and that's mostly based on if you believe in IP.

Be real - you are not going to be fighting. If you have to fight, it's not going to be someone who's a great MMA grappler. You're just not - so if you train hard (which is the real secret of BJJ and MMA - they train harder than everyone else) then you'll be ok.

[Frost]

You guys talk as if there's a huge population of people out there that even know, or can perform a decent shoot to go for a single or double leg. There's not. BJJ is terrible at it, and Judo doesn't even teach it anymore - so you have wrestling. How many good wrestlers are there? Not many. And - how many people can even physically drop low enough AND take a good penetrating step to get the single or double after 25? Again - if they're not actively practicing it - not many. So you have some people in MMA schools... but again - the population in those schools that are really good at hitting a single or double is low. You get a few of the active, competitive fighters, who aren't going to waste their time picking fights on-da-streetz that are good at the single or double leg takedowns. So what's that leave? Bull-rushers and tacklers. You can deal with these people with a good base, knowing angles, keeping low, and being mobile. And yes, you should know how to sprawl (and escape a mount) if you f**k up and get caught.

As far as IP - I don't know, and that's mostly based on if you believe in IP.

Be real - you are not going to be fighting. If you have to fight, it's not going to be someone who's a great MMA grappler. You're just not - so if you train hard (which is the real secret of BJJ and MMA - they train harder than everyone else) then you'll be ok.

So that means you shouldn’t prepare for the best opponent but train low percentage stuff that works on scrubs does it??
And the odds of meeting someone who can hit a good double in the states are probably higher than someone who can kick box or will attack you with any TCMA type strike, its in the high school curriculum and college curriculum of another of schools and colleges and is a D1 sport
Add in those that know how to do a good rugby tackle (basically a high double) or have played college football and can tackle (basically a blast double) and the odds go up way higher
In Europe the odds of meeting someone who has wrestled are low, anyone who did judo as a kid and is over 25 will have learned a double leg, and anyone who did rugby likewise will also have learned something similar to a high double, so if we are talking odds you are probably more likely to face someone who knows how to do a double or something close to it than you are someone who can kick or punch

[Frost]

anything goes mean some rules hun? Were there friends allowed to join in the fight? Where the combatants allowed carrying concealed weapons into the ring? Were they allowed to snuff the other guy before they entered the ring. maybe shank him up while he was in the dressing room? if you answered no to any of those question you need to check your definition of anything goes.

i know a wrestling coach in Beijing [Greco roman] he is a big guy for a chinese, about 6 foot one maybe around 200 ponds. he was with some of his friends in a car and some other guys were in another car and some **** went down over a traffic accident. the coach went over to the car reached in through the open window and grabbed the guy. the guy in the car sliced his hand bad enough for the coach to need stitches and will never be able to form a fist or close his hand completely again. this is not mma is it, as mentioned before i defended myself against three bigger guys on a street corner with evasive footwork and an improvised weapon, but this is valid cause it is not bjj or mma what a joke.i had a ninjutsu teacher that works in rykers island as a guard and uses those skills daily against the inmates, not valid though cause its not sports fighting. I myself have used traditional kung fu and other style techniques in many real fight, not valid cause there wasn’t a referee and it wasn’t mma, get real dude

Get real, LMAO you are the one coming up with stories that cant be verified, what can be verified is that in all the NHB fights that have been recorded in the last 30 years, not one death or serious has come from head shots of a double leg, so leaving your fantasies aside on your original question (before you went off into fantasy land) iron hand will only help if you can stop a shot and set up a good position to strike from

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally like to prepare for the worse case scenarios ( fighting VS someone that knows how to fight) rather than assuming I will have to fight a person that doesn't know how to fight properly.

Here is how I view the whole competition VS real fight thing ( and I have said this a few times):

Competition is a controlled environment, it is as even a playing field as you can get.
Because of this IF something doesn't work there, then it probably WILL NOT work in an environment that ISN'T a level playing field and controlled.
That is the true reality of fighting that, for some reason, some people don't grasp.

In the real world there are no rules so if what you do in the ring does NOT work under controlled conditions, what on earth makes you think it will work under uncontrolled conditions ???

[MightyB]

So that means you shouldn’t prepare for the best opponent but train low percentage stuff that works on scrubs does it??
And the odds of meeting someone who can hit a good double in the states are probably higher than someone who can kick box or will attack you with any TCMA type strike, its in the high school curriculum and college curriculum of another of schools and colleges and is a D1 sport
Add in those that know how to do a good rugby tackle (basically a high double) or have played college football and can tackle (basically a blast double) and the odds go up way higher
In Europe the odds of meeting someone who has wrestled are low, anyone who did judo as a kid and is over 25 will have learned a double leg, and anyone who did rugby likewise will also have learned something similar to a high double, so if we are talking odds you are probably more likely to face someone who knows how to do a double or something close to it than you are someone who can kick or punch

You missed part of my post which states - train hard. That's not training for scrubs. I come from a state with a reputation for wrestling, so believe me when I tell you, you're quite safe from wrestlers here. There really aren't that many good wrestlers, so odds are you will not fight good wrestlers. With that being said, people you would fight on-da-streetz do not know or are physically incapable of dropping low AND executing a quick and powerful penetrating step. So that means you'll be fighting sloppy bull rushers. Which - if you train hard, you will be ok. What you will find within the community that chooses to fight on-da-streetz, is a huge number of people thinking they can box. I'll call it Muhammed Ali syndrome. It usually starts with two peeps hopping like roosters thumping chests saying "you want some?" or something in that respect, and ends in a wild contest of haymakers in which everyone leans way tooo far back whilst flinging their fists wildly. That is da-streetz.

[wiz cool c]

Get real, LMAO you are the one coming up with stories that cant be verified, what can be verified is that in all the NHB fights that have been recorded in the last 30 years, not one death or serious has come from head shots of a double leg, so leaving your fantasies aside on your original question (before you went off into fantasy land) iron hand will only help if you can stop a shot and set up a good position to strike from


all i have seen is words so far from anyone so why are my stories any more untrustworthy than anyone else’s . i myself have been living in china 8 years, have a documentary film being made about my life, have been in 20 something commercials written 6 article for this magazine, have a book being publish soon, all can be verified by going on my face book page which Gene is a friend on, so all these accomplishments and i need to come here and make up stories of techniques i used in fights,you really think so?

Saying anything that is not done in a ring and called MMA is not valid is just stupid. I can prove I have a teacher that works in rykers island and is an ninjutsu instructor, not sure he wants me throwing his name around on a kung fu message board, and i am sure he doesn’t film his fights cause they are not for a trophy money or fame,but you would call his job and experience fantasy though right? And I am lying cause I didn’t have someone film my real fights right? Again they weren’t in a ring for a cash prize make them less valid some how though haha

[wiz cool c]

I personally like to prepare for the worse case scenarios ( fighting VS someone that knows how to fight) rather than assuming I will have to fight a person that doesn't know how to fight properly.

Here is how I view the whole competition VS real fight thing ( and I have said this a few times):

Competition is a controlled environment, it is as even a playing field as you can get.
Because of this IF something doesn't work there, then it probably WILL NOT work in an environment that ISN'T a level playing field and controlled.
That is the true reality of fighting that, for some reason, some people don't grasp.

In the real world there are no rules so if what you do in the ring does NOT work under controlled conditions, what on earth makes you think it will work under uncontrolled conditions ???

Sanjuro im not trying to take away from your accomplishments,and you seem like a nice enough guy, so tell me how do you explain the fact that one time I used an improvised weapon and evasive footwork to defend myself against three bigger guys, there is no mma or bjj technique that would have not gotten me killed in this situation, and these techniques I used to save my ass I learned from ninjutsu. I have also used many traditionally techniques effectively in real fights and knuckle heads on message boards would swear these techniques don’t work.there are many many differences between competionon and self defense, I already mention a number of them when someone said anything goes.you might be a tough guy, you might be a talented athlete,but but self protection is not mma.

[boxerbilly]

You guys talk as if there's a huge population of people out there that even know, or can perform a decent shoot to go for a single or double leg. There's not. BJJ is terrible at it, and Judo doesn't even teach it anymore - so you have wrestling. How many good wrestlers are there? Not many. And - how many people can even physically drop low enough AND take a good penetrating step to get the single or double after 25? Again - if they're not actively practicing it - not many. So you have some people in MMA schools... but again - the population in those schools that are really good at hitting a single or double is low. You get a few of the active, competitive fighters, who aren't going to waste their time picking fights on-da-streetz that are good at the single or double leg takedowns. So what's that leave? Bull-rushers and tacklers. You can deal with these people with a good base, knowing angles, keeping low, and being mobile. And yes, you should know how to sprawl (and escape a mount) if you f**k up and get caught.

As far as IP - I don't know, and that's mostly based on if you believe in IP.

Be real - you are not going to be fighting. If you have to fight, it's not going to be someone who's a great MMA grappler. You're just not - so if you train hard (which is the real secret of BJJ and MMA - they train harder than everyone else) then you'll be ok.

Actually, there are a lot of really great wrestlers out there. Maybe not in MMA but I do not follow who is who and what they do. I once posted that the scariest most dangerous person empty hand wise that ever had the fortune to meet was Bob Anderson. All his guys were/ are GREAT wrestlers.

[boxerbilly]

I personally like to prepare for the worse case scenarios ( fighting VS someone that knows how to fight) rather than assuming I will have to fight a person that doesn't know how to fight properly.

Here is how I view the whole competition VS real fight thing ( and I have said this a few times):

Competition is a controlled environment, it is as even a playing field as you can get.
Because of this IF something doesn't work there, then it probably WILL NOT work in an environment that ISN'T a level playing field and controlled.
That is the true reality of fighting that, for some reason, some people don't grasp.

In the real world there are no rules so if what you do in the ring does NOT work under controlled conditions, what on earth makes you think it will work under uncontrolled conditions ???

Outstand post. Thanks.

[MightyB]

Actually, there are a lot of really great wrestlers out there. Maybe not in MMA but I do not follow who is who and what they do. I once posted that the scariest most dangerous person empty hand wise that ever had the fortune to meet was Bob Anderson. All his guys were/ are GREAT wrestlers.

So what? Were any of them actively going out and involved in general thuggery? Absolutely not, they had better things to do. That's my point.

I'll put it in caps YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE FIGHTING A GOOD WRESTLER OR MMA GUY ON DA STREETS. Because - first of all - you shouldn't be involving yourself in thuggery or thug type situations, and a good competitive athlete shouldn't be putting themselves in thuggery or thug type situations. A general rule of thumb to live by as a martial artist is not to be where bad people hang out.

Now, in a situation where someone absolutely wants to do you bodily harm, they will most likely shoot you in the face.

In one instance BJJ training did come in handy for an Airman in France - that was on a train in France. If you've read or seen any of his first hand accounts of the situation, he was extremely lucky because the gun misfired when he approached and he was stabbed in the neck narrowly missing his jugular. Either one of those situations could have rendered any training moot. Thanks to what he attributes to Divine intervention - he and a lot of train passengers are alive today.

Ultimately if you follow, not mine, but a good general sound theory of martial arts that's been around since the stone age, and one that Silva put to good use in the MMA world: mobility, a wide base, low stances = a great way to stop yourself from being lifted and thrown.

[boxerbilly]

So what? Were any of them actively going out and involved in general thuggery? Absolutely not, they had better things to do. That's my point.

I'll put it in caps YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE FIGHTING A GOOD WRESTLER OR MMA GUY ON DA STREETS. Because - first of all - you shouldn't be involving yourself in thuggery or thug type situations, and a good competitive athlete shouldn't be putting themselves in thuggery or thug type situations. A general rule of thumb to live by as a martial artist is not to be where bad people hang out.

Now, in a situation where someone absolutely wants to do you bodily harm, they will most likely shoot you in the face.

In one instance BJJ training did come in handy for an Airman in France - that was on a train in France. If you've read or seen any of his first hand accounts of the situation, he was extremely lucky because the gun misfired when he approached and he was stabbed in the neck narrowly missing his jugular. Either one of those situations could have rendered any training moot. Thanks to what he attributes to Divine intervention - he and a lot of train passengers are alive today.

Ultimately if you follow, not mine, but a good general sound theory of martial arts that's been around since the stone age, and one that Silva put to good use in the MMA world: mobility, a wide base, low stances = a great way to stop yourself from being lifted and thrown.

As a generalization that may in fact be true. But not all areas. All places. Where I grew up you were most likely to face a good wrestler or a football player. 10 minutes down the road and the rules changes fast. Where you live that may not be the case at all and it is very smart to know what is likely to occur where you spend most of your time in day to day life. And the fact remains as a generalization of course. it is KIDS that do the most fighting on the streets. 13-25. After that they either stop, go to jail, die or upgrade to using weapons. Which make the die/jail results all the more likely. Again, you may live in an area where it is as common for adults to fight as it is for kids but most adults know, they can not take it like they used to anymore. Kid heals in days. We may take weeks to months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3G6CJogIUY



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3G6CJogIUY

[wiz cool c]

As mentioned before this is not a striker vs grappler thread, personally I have done bjj,sombo judo and one of my teachers is a pro mma fighter. I don’t think anyone doubts that you need to know grappling and ground fighting. But many of the old school ways can also be effective for down and dirty street fighting.

I also think it is highly unlikely anyone will be defending themselves against a highly skilled wrestler, but it is not impossible. But remember at the beginning of mma days all the grapplers won easily, then strikers started learning some grappling and defending and winning matches using their techniques. So does it mean all traditional hard core methods are useless in fights, not in my experience. just train in your skills hard and practice against these type of attacks. It makes sense that if someone can break a coconut of brick with their fists they can crack a skull. Yes moving targets are different and that’s why they need to be practiced safely with a partner

[MightyB]

As a generalization that may in fact be true. But not all areas. All places. Where I grew up you were most likely to face a good wrestler or a football player. 10 minutes down the road and the rules changes fast. Where you live that may not be the case at all and it is very smart to know what is likely to occur where you spend most of your time in day to day life. And the fact remains as a generalization of course. it is KIDS that do the most fighting on the streets. 13-25. After that they either stop, go to jail, die or upgrade to using weapons. Which make the die/jail results all the more likely. Again, you may live in an area where it is as common for adults to fight as it is for kids but most adults know, they can not take it like they used to anymore. Kid heals in days. We may take weeks to months.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3G6CJogIUY


I see your point - although I think you may be pushing it with 25. You would hope that people have grown up by that age.

I probably have a bias against fearing the proverbial wrastler because I have absolutely no worries about wrestling or the skilz of so called wrestlers on da streetz. Actually I have no worries about fighting whatsoever, 'cuz I'm an adult living in an adult world. Even so, there's nothing in that video link you shared that scared, shocked, surprised or worried me. Although I think the kid was more representative of Judo than wrestling.

I think I partially derailed this thread because it was about IP vs wrestling.

[boxerbilly]

I see your point - although I think you may be pushing it with 25. You would hope that people have grown up by that age.

I probably have a bias against fearing the proverbial wrastler because I have absolutely no worries about wrestling or the skilz of so called wrestlers on da streetz. Actually I have no worries about fighting whatsoever, 'cuz I'm an adult living in an adult world. Even so, there's nothing in that video link you shared that scared, shocked, surprised or worried me. Although I think the kid was more representative of Judo than wrestling.

I think I partially derailed this thread because it was about IP vs wrestling.

I feel I should add that in my area. County wide. Fighting is less common. It still happens. To much some may say. But is is way less then when I grew up and when I grew up it was less then 7 years earlier for my brother. Today, we have greater racial diversity all over. Towns and the city. It is as likely to become best friends with another race as it is with your own. Not when I grew up. At my home school it was predominantly white. I went to an alternative high and there is was mixed. So called bad kids but not really. There were reason why we were considered bad and reasons that caused it.

When I took of to Cali when I turned 18. My best friends were a Filipino, Black from Oceanside and a Iraqi Jew whos family fled Iraq to avoid religious prosecution. Basically death. If you would have asked me at 17 would any of these guys be my friends. Not a f----ing chance. Yet, these 3 I count among my greatest of friendships. We all thought alike and had the best times.

[MightyB]

I went to an alternative high and there is was mixed. So called bad kids but not really. There were reason why we were considered bad and reasons that caused it.


Don't get me started on how our schools are failing and marginalizing some of our most vulnerable children, and how a simple perspective change among the adults at a school could create a better system for everybody. :) Then this thread would really be derailed!

[boxerbilly]

Don't get me started on how our schools are failing and marginalizing some of our most vulnerable children, and how a simple perspective change among the adults at a school could create a better system for everybody. :) Then this thread would really be derailed!

Yes, I apologize if I side lined. It is funny, we all called each other by racist names. I will not mention theirs but I was " Eugene the Hon--key". But you had beter not call them anything racist if any of us were around. I always wanted to be known as crackerlicious. Back to IP.

[MightyB]

Yes, I apologize if I side lined. It is funny, we all called each other by racist names. I will not mention theirs but I was " Eugene the Hon--key". But you had beter not call them anything racist if any of us were around. Back to IP.

I know some forum members can do some pretty impressive breaks, but are those skills transferable? Are they the same as IP of the past? Do those skills translate to fighting? Is there a way to test IP in the context of fighting? If all of the above is true, then what is required to maintain the skills and keep them relevant so they can be called upon to be used in a self defense situation?

All this leads to this question; how attainable is IP in our modern world?

[David Jamieson]

I know some forum members can do some pretty impressive breaks, but are those skills transferable? Are they the same as IP of the past? Do those skills translate to fighting? Is there a way to test IP in the context of fighting? If all of the above is true, then what is required to maintain the skills and keep them relevant so they can be called upon to be used in a self defense situation?

All this leads to this question; how attainable is IP in our modern world?

Breaking is just a test.

Toughening of the hands overall is the goal of conditioning regimes, be they heavy bag work, makawari board, 3 star blocking, bag striking, etc, etc.

When people first enter martial arts looking for their magic bullet solution for their 50 bucks a month to deadly mastery of ancient arts, they don't realize that hitting someone in the face can hurt your hand, arm knee, whatever. When you develop the skill and apply it, your hands will be conditioned enough to be felt by your opponent as if they were made of stones. Tie that into flow, breathing, technique and ability to fight and you just have better all round striking abilities.

[Kellen Bassette]

You guys talk as if there's a huge population of people out there that even know, or can perform a decent shoot to go for a single or double leg. There's not. BJJ is terrible at it, and Judo doesn't even teach it anymore - so you have wrestling. How many good wrestlers are there? Not many. And - how many people can even physically drop low enough AND take a good penetrating step to get the single or double after 25? Again - if they're not actively practicing it - not many. So you have some people in MMA schools... but again - the population in those schools that are really good at hitting a single or double is low. You get a few of the active, competitive fighters, who aren't going to waste their time picking fights on-da-streetz that are good at the single or double leg takedowns. So what's that leave? Bull-rushers and tacklers. You can deal with these people with a good base, knowing angles, keeping low, and being mobile. And yes, you should know how to sprawl (and escape a mount) if you f**k up and get caught.


Agree with all of this. I do think one should train to fight the best, not expect to only fight untrained bums, but I know you weren't implying that.

[Kellen Bassette]

So that means you shouldn’t prepare for the best opponent but train low percentage stuff that works on scrubs does it??
And the odds of meeting someone who can hit a good double in the states are probably higher than someone who can kick box or will attack you with any TCMA type strike, its in the high school curriculum and college curriculum of another of schools and colleges and is a D1 sport
Add in those that know how to do a good rugby tackle (basically a high double) or have played college football and can tackle (basically a blast double) and the odds go up way higher
In Europe the odds of meeting someone who has wrestled are low, anyone who did judo as a kid and is over 25 will have learned a double leg, and anyone who did rugby likewise will also have learned something similar to a high double, so if we are talking odds you are probably more likely to face someone who knows how to do a double or something close to it than you are someone who can kick or punch

I just don't get the whole putting wrestlers on a pedestal thing. I like wrestling, I like training with wrestlers, I'll say I've never trained with anyone I would consider a high level wrestler, but I have sparred with plenty of guys who wrestled for high schools that were well known for producing champion wrestlers and some college wrestlers. I get taken down sometimes, more often I don't. Sometimes I eat a head kick, it happens...Sometimes I do a full sprawl, many times it isn't necessary....you are right that you must deal with the shot before anything else, but it seems like some people make a bigger monster out of wrestlers than they are...I've met TMA guys that were terrified of wrestlers, I've met wrestlers that were terrified of getting punched or kicked in the head...the more they spar each other the less worried they are.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The reason i left this thread was because wiz cool c was talking about using Iron Palm in competition. I thought about it for a while and pretty soon found this thread both sickening and twisted. Can you imagine sending a family member of yours going into competition and coming back home paralyzed from the neck down? Just because someone is so bone hard for a victory they learned iron palm to power strike someone behind the neck?


mickey

[boxerbilly]

Rules. Rabbit punching equal bad.

I guess on the street. Each of us must decide how far you are willing to go. I never wanted to cripple or kill anyone. I think most felt the same way. Some guys think other wise. They want to put the hurt for good on someone.

Oh I am not pointing fingers. That's an observation. Or , saying that choice is wrong. That is not for me to decide.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Billy,

Iron Palm is fine to make your hands stronger so your strikes more effective in a self defense situation; but, for the purpose of getting a medal or a trophy really sucks. I understand the reservations over teaching such methods. The person's mindset has to be right.

mickey

[Kellen Bassette]

Greetings,

The reason i left this thread was because wiz cool c was talking about using Iron Palm in competition. I thought about it for a while and pretty soon found this thread both sickening and twisted.

:p So when you realized it was sick and twisted you decided to come back?

[wiz cool c]

i think this Mickey guy has got a few screws loose, he started telling me how i should learn grappling and should be well rounded, so i told him i have done bjj,sombo and judo and competed in grappling tournaments before. for some reason he thinks this means use iron hand in competition and try to cripple people.

[Subitai]

Sorry Sanjuro Ronin for the play on your words but I hope you realize I'm not trolling you but I believe in other peoples points of view....as I was trying to say earlier, these things can be viewed in different ways.

"O" ...... I can only speak based on my experience, and that experience includes various types of full contact fighting over a wide range of rulesets ( or no rules). Also twice champion in San shou. I feel that I'm a good grappler and that's not ego..its just I'm getting older. I only have my brown belt in Judo because I was 15 and my Sensei wouldn't let me earn my black until I was 16 so I was impatient and left prematurely. But I made my living rolling with the blacks. I was a co-captain of my state champions team and 3rd overall in wrestling. and have competed in MMA, I have actually fought in the early UFC and also in Russia. Those were not fly by nite events...although that was 20yrs ago, I did my best for what I knew back then. I rolled, fought, sparred and worked out ever since and yes I've had a good amount of street fights including 2 times where I've been jumped by multiple guys. Since then, I've only improved and I consider myself a much more knowledgeable and dangerous fighter...albeit I'm in my 40's now. I'm lucky to not have any major injuries and I'm still very strong.

"O" ...so take what I am about to say base don my limited experience ( and yes I do view it as limited):


Sanjuro Ronin said: A horse stance VS a takedown attempt by even a moderately skilled grappler will not work and the reasons are obvious to anyone that has ever grappled a skilled grappler.

"O" = Yes and NO, depends on how you look at it. You're correct for the most part in sport. But the problem with this thinking is that people surmise that a SOLO solid horse is used to thwart a shot just by itself. Of course that won't work, you have to combine it with other things. As I said earlier, if you understand hand control or even to cross face the sh!t out of a guy while in your horse, you can delay him long enough to counter him, sprawl or run his spaze out. It depends on how deep he got in. The main point is you might use horse for a brief second or two before you switch to something else...but you don't rely on it only to stop a shot.



Sanjuro Ronin said: Here is how I view the whole competition VS real fight thing ( and I have said this a few times):

Competition is a controlled environment, it is as even a playing field as you can get.
Because of this IF something doesn't work there, then it probably WILL NOT work in an environment that ISN'T a level playing field and controlled.
That is the true reality of fighting that, for some reason, some people don't grasp.

In the real world there are no rules so if what you do in the ring does NOT work under controlled conditions, what on earth makes you think it will work under uncontrolled conditions ???



"O" = NO and here's why. It is the very nature of chaos that is the exception and not the rule:

-When your in a controlled environment, you KNOW a few things up front and you're ready. You know you're in a fight, you prepare for it and you are willing to take risks because you know it's safe to do so, that is the very nature of sport. Nobody is looking down on that.

-When you're in the street, there are no rules so you have to use many other cues: Is there going to be a fight? or are we just yelling? Are the cops going to get involved? Too many to list, so suffice to say YOU ACT VERY DIFFERENTLY IN THOSE SITUATIONS than when you have "Big John Macarthy" look at you and say: "Are you ready....are you ready, lets get it on"

True story for you guys ok: One time I'm about to get in a fight. Lots of mouthing, back talk and body posturing going on. I'm checking to see if the guy has back up. He gets close to me...I could hit him 1st but I wanna wait and see. The range is in and out, it's very real and worse IMO because unlike the ring I have to watch MANY other things not just him. The range concerns me, in the ring you'd never let stuff like that happen, it's a totally different feel. He gets close and I can see by his body language he's thinking about trying to fake me out or sucker punch me. I relax as much as possible and bring my right hand up to my chin.....i'm ready.

When he takes the swing I fire out a short back fist, (something we do in my Filippino style) The knuckes of my right fist dig deeply into his upper lip just below his nose. When you do it right, blood splurts out and he covers his mouth and goes down. He's mine after that and in my eyes, it doesn't matter if the guy was a world class fighter or a slob...they all fall the same way when they get hit right.

I bring up that story up not to brag but to show another point of view: I.e. the point being is, that particular back fist wouldn't do jack SH!T in the octagon. There's plenty of things that I've been able to do in the chaos of street but would totally suck if I tried them in the ring... So your comment about controlled environment means nothing to me. Sorry if I have another point of view but so long as those possibilities exist, in my eyes your quote is NOT TRUE


P.S. and before any of you MotherFlowers wanna talk smack about my fights, make sure you put up your own vids of when you fought professionally so I can have the same opportunity to judge you. Preferably, fights from at least 10 yrs ago or more so I can see how you used to be and not how you are currently.

[mickey]

Greetings,

It is pretty obvious you were/are not talking self defense.

And yes, I came back because of the ramifications of such conduct. This thread should be flushed.

mickey

[wiz cool c]

i imagine you looking and sounding like Woody Allen. dude seems you are trying too hard, one day when you actually have something to contribute, it will come naturally.

[Frost]

I just don't get the whole putting wrestlers on a pedestal thing. I like wrestling, I like training with wrestlers, I'll say I've never trained with anyone I would consider a high level wrestler, but I have sparred with plenty of guys who wrestled for high schools that were well known for producing champion wrestlers and some college wrestlers. I get taken down sometimes, more often I don't. Sometimes I eat a head kick, it happens...Sometimes I do a full sprawl, many times it isn't necessary....you are right that you must deal with the shot before anything else, but it seems like some people make a bigger monster out of wrestlers than they are...I've met TMA guys that were terrified of wrestlers, I've met wrestlers that were terrified of getting punched or kicked in the head...the more they spar each other the less worried they are.

No one is putting wrestling on a pedestal please point out anywhere anyone said it was unbeatable or the single best thing going?
what we are saying is that unless you deal with the shot first, trying to hit them as they shoot is low percentage especially with a downward strike to their head, you have to stop momentum first then knock them out (if you can). The single best way to stop a shot, well it’s the sprawl why is it the best, because it removes the legs and access to the hips, why should you use it, because its high percentage as has been proven over and over in MMA and grappling, now if it’s a bad shot you can level change underhook and shuck them off etc, but you are STILL dealing with the momentum of the shot first before doing anything else.
Im also saying that the chances of running into someone who knows how to shoot, or tackle is higher than someone who knows good boxing or kickboxing in most places, wrestling, judo, football and rugby are very popular sports among the 18-25 year olds who are likely to be in fights, so learning to deal with it correctly might be an idea, not to mention the popularity of MMA itself which far outweighs TCMA
Or to put it another way the only time you see knockouts on people shooting in is with a knee or an uppercut if its well-timed, because you have momentum behind your shot and they run into it, but these are low percentage as well, deal with the shot first then do what you want, and personally I prefer to train against good clean techniques rather than rubbish, but hey call me silly that’s just me.

[wiz cool c]

just cause kung fu hasn’t worked for you doesn’t mean it hasn’t worked for guys like me and subtai. i think instead of believing in everything other than your system ,try spending more time on your systems methods, learn to us them under pressure. not saying try to reinvent the wheel but kung fu was designed for fights not competition, and many of the methods work well in fights,i have used them in real fight thats how i know. if you do a half ass job training in your system then jump on what every is the flavor of the day, why do kung fu at all?

I don’t need someone telling me what i do doesn’t work and what they do is the gospel because it was in a ring against well trained athletes. if that is what works for them fine, does not detract form what works for me in he slightest. as mentioned before ground fighting is lacking in kung fu so that needs to be added to be well rounded. other than that kun fu has everything else needed. and yes i have learned a sprawl before exhausting

[Frost]

Guys like you and Subtai, please don’t drag him down to your level we actually have examples of him fighting doing stuff and he argument was sensible as he can actually wrestle :rolleyes:
If you don’t need anyone telling you anything why make this thread, several people answered you who do do iron palm, just because you didn’t like their answer you went off on one,

[boxerbilly]

i imagine you looking and sounding like Woody Allen. dude seems you are trying too hard, one day when you actually have something to contribute, it will come naturally.

Did someone step on your toe's? He just took some of this discussion as distasteful. He may have mistaken your intent. Voiced his opinion. No need to go there. He did not.

[wiz cool c]

He is accusing me of wanting to cripple people in competition,so he kind of went there

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

Focusing on the original point of this thread ( since it seems that nobody is actually reading each other's posts anyways):
Iron hand training does NOT make anyone a better striker BUT it does allow one to strike harder and worry less about getting their hands injured.
The ability to strike and strike well comes from constant and consistent training in, wait for it, striking !
If you wanna be able to strike and strike well you must do just that and the more different types of fighters you face the more you will be able to strike them.
Really, it's just that simple.

True IH practise is time consuming and painful ( though not THAt painful) and for many it is a question of time.
Is the minimum 45 min per day of IH training worth it? can time be better spent doing more direct work on fighting?
These are good questions BUT not really an issue because MA are NOT about either/or but about a holistic view of fighting and conditioning is simply a part of it.
IH training is NOT to be done in substitute of anything else ( like hitting the HB for example) but done to compliment BUT it is also NOT a necessity.
Many great fighters, many great strikers have never done IH training.

[MightyB]

I just don't get the whole putting wrestlers on a pedestal thing. I like wrestling, I like training with wrestlers, I'll say I've never trained with anyone I would consider a high level wrestler, but I have sparred with plenty of guys who wrestled for high schools that were well known for producing champion wrestlers and some college wrestlers. I get taken down sometimes, more often I don't. Sometimes I eat a head kick, it happens...Sometimes I do a full sprawl, many times it isn't necessary....you are right that you must deal with the shot before anything else, but it seems like some people make a bigger monster out of wrestlers than they are...I've met TMA guys that were terrified of wrestlers, I've met wrestlers that were terrified of getting punched or kicked in the head...the more they spar each other the less worried they are.

I know... right? Seriously, everyone should realize by now from their own personal experiences in kwoons, gyms, etc - that there's definitely different levels of quality in instruction and students. So even if they're training something like MMA, BJJ, Judo, Wrestling - it still doesn't mean a whole lot, 'cuz they could suck. But, like Frost said, you don't train to fight scrubs.

And hopefully people understand that you don't drop into a solid horse stance and say "come at me bro". 'cuz that's crazy.

And hopefully people understand that you don't go into a MMA competition without training MMA. 'cuz that's crazy, same goes for San Shou - you train differently for good reason.

But - realize that good shoots are within arms length - know that sh*t, internalize it - that way you know to stay mobile and watch out for the traps and fakes. You can walk away from a shoot.
http://giant.gfycat.com/CrazySandyAfricangoldencat.gif

Again - look at the tie up, watch the shoot miss, the other guy counters with a trip shoot combo (uchi mata to a deep ko soto?) 'cuz it's wrestling
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1515149/7.gif

and this is just bad@ss
http://www.gifbin.com/bin/052010/1274086915_wrestling-drop-on-head.gif

I may have forgotten my point with this thread, but that power bomb is bad@ss!

[MightyB]

Focusing on the original point of this thread ( since it seems that nobody is actually reading each other's posts anyways):
Iron hand training does NOT make anyone a better striker BUT it does allow one to strike harder and worry less about getting their hands injured.
The ability to strike and strike well comes from constant and consistent training in, wait for it, striking !
If you wanna be able to strike and strike well you must do just that and the more different types of fighters you face the more you will be able to strike them.
Really, it's just that simple.

True IH practise is time consuming and painful ( though not THAt painful) and for many it is a question of time.
Is the minimum 45 min per day of IH training worth it? can time be better spent doing more direct work on fighting?
These are good questions BUT not really an issue because MA are NOT about either/or but about a holistic view of fighting and conditioning is simply a part of it.
IH training is NOT to be done in substitute of anything else ( like hitting the HB for example) but done to compliment BUT it is also NOT a necessity.
Many great fighters, many great strikers have never done IH training.

Yeah - you sumbich's - listen to this post!

[boxerbilly]

He is accusing me of wanting to cripple people in competition,so he kind of went there

I know. Perhaps try and find away to explain it. If you believe you did, and he still misunderstands , maybe find another way ? I am pretty sure you are not malicious in any way. You make good post. Always polite.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Even I went there: "take the odyssey" "find out for yourself" I had to catch myself. I apologize for my contributions. It wasn't the right thing for me to do.

mickey

[GeneChing]

There was a period when Grandmaster Alex Tao, who produced our Iron Palm and Iron Body materials (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvdk-at102.html), was coaching conditioning for Cung Le. I was hoping something more would come of it and planned to do some sort of story on it, but the language barrier was too difficult for that to continue for very long. Note that it was just one aspect of the training program at Cung's gym and this was several years ago, prior to his UFC days (might have even been prior to Strikeforce - I don't really remember the details).

[Jimbo]

Not regarding IP vs. grappling, but I remember back in the 90s, boxer Kostya Tszyu claimed to practice iron palm. Probably to protect his hands and make them more resilient. He claimed that it worked for him.

[boxerbilly]

MightyB. I trained to fight scrubs. Heck, I probably was a scrub, LOL. I was not real worried about the guys doing MA's. They never seemed to be around much back then. I knew who did what I my area for the most part too. Just me and a few other scrubs. Even 15 years ago, I made my rounds. See who was out there. Who should I worry about. Funny, one that really stood out was a guy in Aikido. There was this hot chick with a broken ankle or something. I struck up conversation. Nice girl. I said, there is something about that guy that is just different from everyone else. She said, 4th dan Judo. He wore a Hakima in Aikido, whatever that means. Most were in white Gi's. The other Hakima guys did not move like him.

[David Jamieson]

Greetings,

The reason i left this thread was because wiz cool c was talking about using Iron Palm in competition. I thought about it for a while and pretty soon found this thread both sickening and twisted. Can you imagine sending a family member of yours going into competition and coming back home paralyzed from the neck down? Just because someone is so bone hard for a victory they learned iron palm to power strike someone behind the neck?


mickey

I don't know Mickey. Why enter a tournament around martial arts if you don't expect injury? If you enter a martial arts tournament without considering the fact that you can be hurt and hurt badly even, then I think maybe a rethink is required in some cases.

Besides, if you are full contact fighting for no reason other than to get a trophy then that requires reassessment as well. If you aren't getting paid what is worth the risk, then tourney fighting is and has always been about ego all round.

[MightyB]

MightyB. I trained to fight scrubs. Heck, I probably was a scrub, LOL.

LOL Same here!
----
You know what's funny? I have no stake in this game.
Who's got two thumbs and ain't going to be fighting anybody? Me

Heck, I'm content to be one of those forms guys from now until the rest of my life. What's funny - I can't recall an ultra competitive judo guy hitting old age and going without a limp or some other ailment. So how's that for winning?

Nope, not for this guy - I plan on being one of those old bastids that can still move. I'm not sure that's going to be the case for many of our ultra hardcore MMA friends.

I just keep arguing on this one 'cuz it's been way too long since we've had a fresh 7 pager on the forum main page.

[boxerbilly]

LOL Same here!
----
You know what's funny? I have no stake in this game.
Who's got two thumbs and ain't going to be fighting anybody? Me

Heck, I'm content to be one of those forms guys from now until the rest of my life. What's funny - I can't recall an ultra competitive judo guy hitting old age and going without a limp or some other ailment. So how's that for winning?

Nope, not for this guy - I plan on being one of those old bastids that can still move. I'm not sure that's going to be the case for many of our ultra hardcore MMA friends.

I just keep arguing on this one 'cuz it's been way too long since we've had a fresh 7 pager on the forum main page.

It has been a excellent thread.

[Kellen Bassette]

And hopefully people understand that you don't drop into a solid horse stance and say "come at me bro". 'cuz that's crazy.

I would think it would go without saying that we're not talking about dropping into a pose, hands pulled back to chamber standing frozen, but God knows what assumptions are made here.

[SteveLau]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

Wiz cool c,

Yep. Some techniques like most strikes allowed in many MA styles are not found in wrestling. I figure that the main reason is that these strikes will render grappling and wrestling techniques ineffective. That means a wrestler will be likely being fended off before he reaches his opponent. That is also why MMA fight usually starts and ends with strikes only. The reachability of strike techniques tells us why.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[MightyB]

But - realize that good shoots are within arms length - know that sh*t, internalize it - that way you know to stay mobile and watch out for the traps and fakes. You can walk away from a shoot.!

This dude gets it! https://www.facebook.com/keenancornelius/videos/10200954659784738/

[Frost]

Wiz cool c,

Yep. Some techniques like most strikes allowed in many MA styles are not found in wrestling. I figure that the main reason is that these strikes will render grappling and wrestling techniques ineffective. That means a wrestler will be likely being fended off before he reaches his opponent. That is also why MMA fight usually starts and ends with strikes only. The reachability of strike techniques tells us why.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

Can I ask, have you been drinking???

[YouKnowWho]

That is also why MMA fight usually starts and ends with strikes only.

A fight may start with strikes, but most of the time, it may end with clinch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhkNrei5DE&feature=youtu.be

[SteveLau]

A fight may start with strikes, but most of the time, it may end with clinch.




Sure, it happens.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[wiz cool c]

anyone with fighting experience knows it is definitely better to have both grappling and striking in your arsenal, that’s why kung fu systems have throws locks and escapes[with cross training filling in the gaps]. But it really depends on a lot of things whether you end up in on the ground or in a clinch. In the early 90s the Gracies were selling there style and claiming 90 something percent of all fights end on the ground. In my own personal experience it is about 50 % of the time.

The last six real fights I have been, in three needed on the ground. One I struck a guy with an open hand strike in the throat he went down rolled onto his stomach and I kneeled behind him and choked him out[he started the fight, I gave him many opportunities to let it end peacefully]

the other was when I was working at a gym back in new York and the manager[a high ranking black belt in an eclectic style jumped me from behind] I wound up on my back on a table with him in my open guard, and arm bared him with him yelling in agony till the fight was broken up. That fight can be verified, just go to the 92nd street Y on the upper east side of Manhattan and ask one of the old trainers about a fight that took place between manager David and a trainer named Chris.

The other took place in what they call a lady bar in Beijing when I first moved to china, they tried to scam me to buy a bunch of drinks,in a little KTV room down a long hall and down some tall flight of stairs. When I refused to pay one guy tried grabbing my I used a baguazhang double handed strike/shove and sent him into the KTV machine, the other guy little bigger and more fit started coming at me. I was bit nervous [spoke no Chinese at the time, and didn’t’t know if people cary weapons or what in china] so I backed up and tripped onto the sofa and he came at me,I kept him at bay with open guard my feet keeping him away at his hips, when he got closer every time I would kick him in the face a few times. The fight ended with the hooker slapping me while I kick the one guy in the face and the other guy I shoved into the KTV machine yelling go go, from a distance. I wound up giving the manager something like 300 rmb just to get out of there quickly.

by the way these are real stories not fantasies, as far fetched as they may sound. anyone doubting their authenticity feel free to go to my facebook page[chris friedman] and see the unusual life i live, many of my real life experiences could easily be misinterpretated to be kungfuhero guy type of fantasies.

[boxerbilly]

anyone with fighting experience knows it is definitely better to have both grappling and striking in your arsenal, that’s why kung fu systems have throws locks and escapes[with cross training filling in the gaps]. But it really depends on a lot of things whether you end up in on the ground or in a clinch. In the early 90s the Gracies were selling there style and claiming 90 something percent of all fights end on the ground. In my own personal experience it is about 50 % of the time.

The last six real fights I have been, in three needed on the ground. One I struck a guy with an open hand strike in the throat he went down rolled onto his stomach and I kneeled behind him and choked him out[he started the fight, I gave him many opportunities to let it end peacefully]

the other was when I was working at a gym back in new York and the manager[a high ranking black belt in an eclectic style jumped me from behind] I wound up on my back on a table with him in my open guard, and arm bared him with him yelling in agony till the fight was broken up. That fight can be verified, just go to the 92nd street Y on the upper east side of Manhattan and ask one of the old trainers about a fight that took place between manager David and a trainer named Chris.

The other took place in what they call a lady bar in Beijing when I first moved to china, they tried to scam me to buy a bunch of drinks,in a little KTV room down a long hall and down some tall flight of stairs. When I refused to pay one guy tried grabbing my I used a baguazhang double handed strike/shove and sent him into the KTV machine, the other guy little bigger and more fit started coming at me. I was bit nervous [spoke no Chinese at the time, and didn’t’t know if people cary weapons or what in china] so I backed up and tripped onto the sofa and he came at me,I kept him at bay with open guard my feet keeping him away at his hips, when he got closer every time I would kick him in the face a few times. The fight ended with the hooker slapping me while I kick the one guy in the face and the other guy I shoved into the KTV machine yelling go go, from a distance. I wound up giving the manager something like 300 rmb just to get out of there quickly.

by the way these are real stories not fantasies, as far fetched as they may sound. anyone doubting their authenticity feel free to go to my facebook page[chris friedman] and see the unusual life i live, many of my real life experiences could easily be misinterpretated to be kungfuhero guy type of fantasies.

Thanks. I have no reason not to believe you. I was not there. A lot of times people think, this is bragging or bull****. Obviously both could be true. But this is a MA forum. Kung Fu most specifically. You guys never did corner the market on ass kicking though. Just different ways. Anyway, you wanted to share your experience. I appreciate that. It makes us hopefully see and understand, there is more than one way. This guy made things we may believe wont work, work. Etc.
This is important.

I once knew a Isshin Ryu guy. Rather great in the art. In fact he is often seen on the old Panther tapes. Great Champion in the art. Awesome at sparring and forms. And knowing where he grew up. This was suprising to me. He never had a single out of the dojo encounter that went physical. He never had to use his art. So as vast as his understanding was and the fact he was excellent by all Isshin Ryu standards and probably many outside of Isshin Ryu. He really has no idea about what happens on the street or where that may be ie, bar, classroom, grocery store , just keep adding. That does not mean he has nothing to offer me or anyone but based on our experiences, we filter what we think will not work for us. But again, just because I or you could not make something work because of bias, lack of training or understanding, or you just don't have all that is needed to pull it off , does not mean another can not do it and I love to read and watch what others have been capable of.

Thanks again.

[wiz cool c]

Yeah I had a kung fu teacher that lived in a a bad part of Manhattan throughout the70s while all kinds of crazy **** was going down, and lever had one single fight. I think it depends on one’s appearance and temperament. i am always shocked when I hear this type of thing and of course admire them. I think street fighting is stupid for sure, but when a stranger provokes you and goes out of their way to enter your world and disrupt it, it is just hard not to want to teach them a lesson.

[boxerbilly]

Yeah I had a kung fu teacher that lived in a a bad part of Manhattan throughout the70s while all kinds of crazy **** was going down, and lever had one single fight. I think it depends on one’s appearance and temperament. i am always shocked when I hear this type of thing and of course admire them. I think street fighting is stupid for sure, but when a stranger provokes you and goes out of their way to enter your world and disrupt it, it is just hard not to want to teach them a lesson.


Well anyone can doubt you but if they took the time to see what you have accomplished so far in life. It may change their belief.

Yes, I wrote about the 70's were far rougher where I grew up than in the 80's. It had a lot to do with TIMES. Today in most areas kids and people get along much, much better. This is a great thing. And one I hope continues to grow. Hatred "generally taught" is a bad thing. Not all white hate. Not all blacks hate. Not all Chinese hate. Etc, etc. When it comes down to it, we are all so similar in what we want out of life. And, man, how could you not fall in love with someone different than oneself? I did. And, how would one feel if their grandchild happens to be from a son or daughter different than you ? It is a f-ing JOKE.

That's how I grew up. Told to hate this color or that color. But when I got of the plane in California. I dropped that baggage. I found out for myself what I FEEL. Not what everyone told me to feel. As bad as things are. Or may be. I would never want that revert to older ideas as far as the US is concerned. I can inly hope all places , ever where are going into the same direction. That is an ideal anyhow.

I like people. All kinds. Rich to poor. Race is meaningless to friendship and family. And should be overall. One day.

Thanks again. Take care. That's it for me. Maybe next week I can post again. A lot of you guys have great ideas. Great stories. Share them. Let them grow.
Bawang, post up all sorts of different kung fu exercise programs. You have so much understanding. share it. Weights, bodyweights, etc. Maybe how you share needs some polish but you do it however.