Wing Chun Training History Question

[mickey]

Gretings,

I am not a Wing Chun man.

I had the opportunity to observe some WC training over the years via u tube and something came to me recently that I had to ask about. Was the Wing Chun empty hand sparring originally start out as a way to safely train the usage of the Butterfly Knives?

mickey

[PalmStriker]

:) Some of the other Southern styles that were around before Wing Chun was conceived like CLF used the knives that could be contained in a single scabbard and easily concealed. Like carrying handguns instead of rifles. Close combat weapon like a tomahawk, these weapons were mandatory for survival. To watch the knife set is not so exciting, about like watching the pole set. Nothing flashy. No spinning or acrobatics. Nowadays to consider using the double knives in a pinch for their intended use is going to be questionable as long as there is available law enforcement as first response. Empty hand Wing Chun was developed specifically to minimize effort and maximize efficiency in confrontation where the use of weaponry would be deemed criminal intent. Wing Chun does not require the Butterfly Knives or the pole to be a complete fighting system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=j5g-ssvZE7Q

[mickey]

Greetings PalmStriker,

Thank you for your response. It did not address my inquiry.

Wing Chun may have been one of those styles where weaponry was taught first. And if so, was the sparring method that we see originally done as a training method for knife fighting. I am talking about origins, here.


mickey

[Grumblegeezer]

Greetings PalmStriker,

Thank you for your response. It did not address my inquiry.

Wing Chun may have been one of those styles where weaponry was taught first. And if so, was the sparring method that we see originally done as a training method for knife fighting. I am talking about origins, here.
mickey

No, it was not.

Origins are a murky and endlessly debatable topic. I'm not going there. But I will say that WC does not share key characteristics of weapons-first martial arts such as many branches of FMA, Eastern and Western historical swordsmanship and, in today's world, tactical firearms training.

Weapon arts almost universally begin with weapons, or some safer training version of the same. Wing Chun does not. Weapons arts that branch out into empty hand combat, like many FMA and some Japanese arts with roots in swordsmanship, generally incorporate this both into their style's "history" and make reference to it in their training. This only happens very rarely in WC where you may use a stance or position from the long pole or BCD sets.

Finally, if you look at WC's empty-handed training and "sparring" curriculum across a wide range of lineages, you will find that the focus is almost exclusively on methods that make sense with empty hands but not with weapons. Chi-sau is one example. WC stylists train sticking drills extensively. You do not stick with the BCD.

[boxerbilly]

No, it was not.

Origins are a murky and endlessly debatable topic. I'm not going there. But I will say that WC does not share key characteristics of weapons-first martial arts such as many branches of FMA, Eastern and Western historical swordsmanship and, in today's world, tactical firearms training.

Weapon arts almost universally begin with weapons, or some safer training version of the same. Wing Chun does not. Weapons arts that branch out into empty hand combat, like many FMA and some Japanese arts with roots in swordsmanship, generally incorporate this both into their style's "history" and make reference to it in their training. This only happens very rarely in WC where you may use a stance or position from the long pole or BCD sets.

Finally, if you look at WC's empty training and "sparring" curriculum across a wide range of lineages, you will find that the focus is almost exclusively on methods that make sense with empty hands but not with weapons. Chi-sau is one example. WC stylists train sticking drills extensively. You do not stick with the BCD.

Could one implement knives into chi sao? Smaller blades? Would it still work ? Does it make sense? Not to imply I disagree. I do not know but again I see similarity. Parrying, getting off the line of attack, sensitivity. Put a folder in your hands. Still work?

Edit- Do you mean Wing Chun history ? Murky ? Seems odd if the art is say, only 300-400 years old. Why so much confusion on where, who and how it developed ?

[wckf92]

One should closely examine their training, drills, applications. If you train as if your partner's hand/fist is holding a knife it will greatly change your mental outlook when training. That being said, here would be one example of less-than-optimal thinking:

9637

[boxerbilly]

One should closely examine their training, drills, applications. If you train as if your partner's hand/fist is holding a knife it will greatly change your mental outlook when training. That being said, here would be one example of less-than-optimal thinking:

9637

Keith Hackney did something similar to Joe Son. In that situation it worked. If someone locks that on you , it is a pretty good way. I see your point if there is a knife in his hand. I guess you better do the damage and get it back quick. Also, is this a single handed version of that dummy demo vid I posted?

[wckf92]

Keith Hackney did something similar to Joe Son. In that situation it worked. If someone locks that on you , it is a pretty good way. I see your point if there is a knife in his hand. I guess you better do the damage and get it back quick. Also, is this a single handed version of that dummy demo vid I posted?

Hi boxerbilly. I'm sorry, I'm not sure when/where you posted the 'dummy demo vid'?
My point is, most WC'ers don't consider training as if their opponent were armed with a shank (not picking on Kwok, he is just the first one I saw after a quick search, but his two teachers Chun and Ch'ing do this too so perhaps that is where Kwok gets it from). If that dudes right hand had a shank, Kwok (via the way he trains I'm guessing) just pulled it straight into himself. That was the point I was trying to make.

[boxerbilly]

Hi boxerbilly. I'm sorry, I'm not sure when/where you posted the 'dummy demo vid'?
My point is, most WC'ers don't consider training as if their opponent were armed with a shank (not picking on Kwok, he is just the first one I saw after a quick search, but his two teachers Chun and Ch'ing do this too so perhaps that is where Kwok gets it from). If that dudes right hand had a shank, Kwok (via the way he trains I'm guessing) just pulled it straight into himself. That was the point I was trying to make.

I see. I was focusing on something I know. ****, held a thought!

By the way, thank you for answering my question about with knife.

[mickey]

Greetings Gentlemen,

Thank you for your feedback regarding my inquiry.

Respectfully,

mickey

[Grumblegeezer]

Could one implement knives into chi sao? Smaller blades? Would it still work ? Does it make sense?

Actually, "sticking" sometimes works better with longer weapons. With the long pole there is chi-kwun. With longer swords, in HEMA, there is crashing in and working from the bind. Some systems try to stick to a knife, (passing drills and the like in
some FMA) but most of the time you'll get cut.

Wing chun has sticky-hands drills, sticky-legs drills, and sticky-pole practice. It isn't an accident that there isn't sticky-knife training.

[PalmStriker]

:) Hey Mickey! Pretty much what grumblegezzer said, I havn't seen or heard anywhere in the lineages where the knives are taught upfront or hand combat is derived from their use. My own practice is a good bit derived from the use of a two handed sword (use of diagonal cut and cross-step to protect your back) but is not Wing Chun practice.

[B.Tunks]

Could be wrong, but I thought Gulao/Kulo WC was 'built' off double knives. At least some people from that school are of that opinion.

[PalmStriker]

:) Checked into it and you are right to the extent that the high and low "Butterfly Palms" are in keeping with the same form/intent as if you were using the double knives. I can see this would be so. http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_gulao.html

[B.Tunks]

If so, I wouldn't be surprised. Many of the central and Northern styles are built on the spear.

[bawang]

double knife in chinese kung fu is about performing maximum amount of stabs in smallest amount of time. key principles in wing chun are not very useful for boxing but very good for knife fighting and are directly from chinese knife fighting

[JPinAZ]

Agreed.
Some of HFY's Kiu Sau fighting methodology, strategy & tactics directly mirrors those of the knives.
There are also influences in our Kiu Sau that come direct from spear fighting tactics (although we do not have the spear in our system).

[guy b.]

Edit- Do you mean Wing Chun history ? Murky ? Seems odd if the art is say, only 300-400 years old. Why so much confusion on where, who and how it developed ?

There is some obviously made up detail which would cause most reasonable people to doubt the rest of it.

Try 100-200 years old


Could one implement knives into chi sao? Smaller blades? Would it still work ? Does it make sense? Not to imply I disagree. I do not know but again I see similarity. Parrying, getting off the line of attack, sensitivity. Put a folder in your hands. Still work?

Chi sau is a training drill for punching. Would be senseless to incorporate knives.

[wckf92]

There is some obviously made up detail which would cause most reasonable people to doubt the rest of it.

Try 100-200 years old

Gents...just FYI... NOBODY knows for sure, and we'll NEVER KNOW... so let's all not sweat the small stuff. :D



Chi sau is a training drill for punching.

Yes, chi sau is a DRILL...and only a DRILL...but it's what the WC'er gets from training the drill that can (if needed) transcend the drill. It is, after all, just an idea.

[JPinAZ]

Chi sau is a training drill for punching. Would be senseless to incorporate knives.

I've heard this before from the WSL lineage. So in that lineage, this may be true, but in my experience 'chi sau' is about a lot more than training for punching.


Yes, chi sau is a DRILL...and only a DRILL...but it's what the WC'er gets from training the drill that can (if needed) transcend the drill. It is, after all, just an idea.

Again, depends on the lineage and how one defines 'chi sau'. If you are referring to chi sau as in a tan/bong/fook rolling/training platform you may be right from one perspective. But from another, 'chi sau' is a lot more than just a drill or training platform - it is also an all-encompassing bridging platform that directly applies to fighting :)

[wckf92]

Again, depends on the lineage and how one defines 'chi sau'. If you are referring to chi sau as in a tan/bong/fook rolling/training platform you may be right from one perspective. But from another, 'chi sau' is a lot more than just a drill or training platform - it is also an all-encompassing bridging platform that directly applies to fighting :)

I totally agree dude. In my view, the 'drilling' of chi sau is solely to ingrain certain attributes. Once these ideas are 'in your blood'...take them anywhere you want! They are applicable everywhere (again, and to your point, depending on how one defines chi sau). :D