Is Western Boxing Tong Bei?

[Cataphract]

Is western boxing Tong Bei, or rather "through the back"? From what I've read Tong Bei refers to a muscular chain from the feet, legs, hips, back, shoulders, arms to the fist. That is by my definition a standard straight punch, if torque from the hip action is not mentioned.

[bawang]

no lol

kjhkhkjhk

[Cataphract]

So how do you punch somebody through your back?

[David Jamieson]

western boxing is simply western boxing.

"through the back" is an older conceptualization of the posterior chain and anterior chain.

Born in ancient time and changed and developed with rules etc etc over time up until we have what it is now.
What we have now is pretty much 100 years old or so.

It merely has a rule set and you can be orthodox or not in how your train and fight.

Western boxing developed independently of chinese martial arts style but lately, people are pulling from all over to make whatever it is they are training work.

We should be back at Pankration in a year or 5 at this rate. :D

https://sites.google.com/site/saylorphyed/assignments/anatomyandmovment/Chain%20Posterior%20anterior.jpg

[Cataphract]

Yes, of course it developed independently. I mean, is Tong Bei functionally equivalent? Do western boxers use their bodies basically the same way when they throw a straight punch as Tong Bei fighters do? It is hard be a pugilist without using the posterior/anterior chain.

I hear Tong Bei used to be a training method before it became a style and used to be popular. Tong Bei influenced Taizu Chang Quan and thus probably all Shaolin based styles incorporate its ideas to some degree. So what exactly distinguishes it from fighting methods that came before? The term "through the back" is used quite often, but no one ever really explains it.

[bawang]

I hear
who

From what I've read
where

wat kung fu u train

[Cataphract]

who

1. Figure of speech. See 2.


where

2. Internet. Here, Sal Canzonieri‘s site and some others.


wat kung fu u train
3. What‘s that got to do with anything?

I‘m just curious what "through the back" is.
But if you really must, launch an ad hominem and make fun of me. I am willing to train with anybody who has something to teach and I get along with. Right now that is Karate, Tai Chi and an eclectic style of kickboxing.

[Cataphract]

Here is what reminds me of western boxing:


Originally Tong Bei referred more to a method of training and an approach to power.

http://www.plumpub.com/kaimen/2004/tong-bei-quan-or-tong-bi-boxing/

The essence of Tong Bei is that power is generated from the back to pass through the shoulders and then out the arms.
In this way, heavy strikes can be delivered at arm's length.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle8.htm

Also, a ‘body shaking‘ method was used for transferring this internally generated energy; the opening and closing of the Kua caused the heels to alternately press into the ground in such a way that the body was used as a lever to transfer the body weight up the legs, around the hip/waist area (the ‘dantian‘), up through the spine, and out the striking area. The Long Fist idea itself consisted of moving this kinetic energy in an attack as one long fist, moving from one arm through the shoulders and back and out the other arm.
This idea was the original use of “tong bi” – “through the arm”, which was pointing and piercing movements for striking. [...]
All these concepts can be found today used in various ways within Tongbei Quan and the ‘Big Three Internal Martial Arts‘.
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle35-TZQ.htm

[bawang]

But if you really must, launch an ad hominem and make fun of me. I am willing to train with anybody who has something to teach and I get along with. Right now that is Karate, Tai Chi and an eclectic style of kickboxing.

lol

fffgfg

[boxerbilly]

western boxing is simply western boxing.

"through the back" is an older conceptualization of the posterior chain and anterior chain.

Born in ancient time and changed and developed with rules etc etc over time up until we have what it is now.
What we have now is pretty much 100 years old or so.

It merely has a rule set and you can be orthodox or not in how your train and fight.

Western boxing developed independently of chinese martial arts style but lately, people are pulling from all over to make whatever it is they are training work.

We should be back at Pankration in a year or 5 at this rate. :D

https://sites.google.com/site/saylorphyed/assignments/anatomyandmovment/Chain%20Posterior%20anterior.jpg

I think MMA is basically Pankration. Minus the really evil stuff.

Also, although we often believe this or that developed independently. I am not so certain that is correct. We have traded since we invented trade. Or WAR. All over. People go one place see or learn and take it back and figure it out. In so doing things may be altered for their area and needs, etc. I believe influence of many if not all systems has been and always will be global. Perhaps now more so than ever with the click of a button we are seeing some obscure art in Africa or some other place we would not associate H2H with.

I have read Thai Boxing influenced Savate and I have read that is incorrect, it was the other way around. I believe both are true statements. They influenced one another. To what degree is and how would be the real questions. Time and people forget and think, I do not see any similarities. Cold not have happened. Maybe, maybe not.

[boxerbilly]

This may be of interest to some. It is likely that China had Jewish settlers during the Shang Dynasty. I am unsure if Tang is another spelling for the same era ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_China

Pankration is potentially 700 years older than Kung Fu. Of course that is if we base solely off of recorder records. And believed dates of inception. I believe things are much older and old records lost and these are what we have left to base beliefs on.

Again, my main point is, I believe everyone influenced everyone in the development of the human species regardless the subject. To believe one county independently developed all that there is inside their art is just not believable to me. Again, things are shared either directly or indirectly. A guy may have taught something one guy said to him, was developed in this area and we dig deeper and find it actually is an offshoot of this art and that art was actually influenced by another system from another country and round and round it goes. Along the way, incomplete information is spread or things are dropped because for all intent purpose they serve no ideal function in the new area. Or the applications are no longer viable beyond historic value. Better ways have been shared or discovered but as the old saying goes, Nothing new under the sun. A discovery today may have been common practice in another area but was essentially lost do to time and changes of needs.

This makes me wonder all the more if Bawang was not onto something with WC is a knife art. It may not have begun that way. But, ideas may have been adopted based on a certain knife of the day. Somewhere that understand was possibly lost or forgot or just never discussed and so most know believe, it was never the case. Either could be right because as some have pointed out. WC history is somewhat murky.

Kajukenbo. A modern art developed for street situations specifically for one area of this world. An art not based around warfare/battle field methods but that is not completely correct. The ideas and techniques may in fact be traced to battlefield arts but they altered those things to make them work in there area for that time. The old applications no longer were ideal for the present circumstances. But, if we look, the basic's and individual techniques are essentially the same. Usage as changed to a degree. Some may believe much so. Others may think, not so much. Now look at MMA.

Everything they do can be found in almost any H2H art anywhere on the map. They altered usage based on the times and place and reasons they are using it. The old applications have limited needs there and many have no place there period.

Anyway, have a good day. I have much to do.

[David Jamieson]

This may be of interest to some. It is likely that China had Jewish settlers during the Shang Dynasty. I am unsure if Tang is another spelling for the same era ?

Shang were a proto civilization prior to the Zhou and just after the Xia who were the first dynasty following the neolithic age in China.

They would have been extant around the time that Moses was said to be running out of Egypt (1750BCE)
The Tang Dynasty is much much later at around 700CE or only 1300 years ago compared to the Shangs 3500+ years ago.

Anyway, just providing a bit of info. :) I don't know about Jewish people in China, but who knows, they did have a bunch of dispersed tribes. Maybe that's the rest of us? lol

[ShaolinDan]

I think MMA is basically Pankration. Minus the really evil stuff.

Also, although we often believe this or that developed independently. I am not so certain that is correct. We have traded since we invented trade. Or WAR. All over. People go one place see or learn and take it back and figure it out. In so doing things may be altered for their area and needs, etc. I believe influence of many if not all systems has been and always will be global. Perhaps now more so than ever with the click of a button we are seeing some obscure art in Africa or some other place we would not associate H2H with.

I have read Thai Boxing influenced Savate and I have read that is incorrect, it was the other way around. I believe both are true statements. They influenced one another. To what degree is and how would be the real questions. Time and people forget and think, I do not see any similarities. Cold not have happened. Maybe, maybe not.

I think this is often the case.

The world (from a European perspective) got really small during the dark ages, but before that there was a great history of intercontinental exchange.

As an aside about Jews in China...some of my great (great?) granduncles were merchants from Bagdad, who apparently decided at some point to settle down in China (they used to trade there). No idea what happened after that...somewhere out there I have a curly headed Chinese cousin. :) Obviously this is more like late nineteenth century though.

As for the opening post...I don't know what tongbei or tongbi originally referred to, maybe Bawang can translate some ancient texts for us, but as far as power generation for a straight punch...IMO it's more or less the same, it's just how the body/physics works.

[Jimbo]

Years ago, I remember hearing about a community of Jews in China's Henan Province.

[ShaolinDan]

...However, contemporary Tongbei, hits in various ways that aren't used in boxing, and those strikes have their own differences. ( Just as power generation for an uppercut is not the same as for a straight punch).

There's a lot of whipping energy in contemporary Tongbei (back shoulders arms wrists). The wrists are something you'll never see in boxing.

But the tongbei straight punch is just a straight punch. :) Or else the difference was over my head.

[ShaolinDan]

Years ago, I remember hearing about a community of Jews in China's Henan Province.

Kaifeng. That's well documented.

[David Jamieson]

Kaifeng. That's well documented.

Very true and most scholars agree they were there around the time of Northern Song Dynasty.
Some speculate even earlier, but Northern Song started in mid 900s CE.

so, yes, silk road was a factor and so was the Babylonian expulsion, which is where the speculation about Jews arriving in China earlier comes from as that took place around 600CE.

[SoCo KungFu]

Again, my main point is, I believe everyone influenced everyone in the development of the human species regardless the subject.

That's a rather vague statement. What is your point of reference? Cultures have been developing in isolation for tens of thousands of years.

You vastly overestimate the speed with which information could travel in ancient times. 4000-7000 years ago seems like a long time, but that's just a short, recent blip in reference to human culture (we've been farming for at least 11,000 year). Why do I use that 4-7k time frame? Because that is, according to our best evidence, the time in which humans first began using horses for transportation (and that's for the first, it took another 2-3000 years to become a widespread practice). Rapid transportation is the minimum necessity for the rate of information transfer we are talking about. People migrated on foot and covered great distances for sure, but that took far too long (again, tens of thousands of years). Cultures and their knowledge spring up and snuff out in far less time.

The reality is, many things were developed independently, by many peoples. Something as simple as a spear head, while functionally equivalent, may be fashioned entirely differently by different cultures (in fact, that very example is one prominent way we can differentiate the migration of ancient East Asian vs. Eurasian people).

Don't assume similarity indicates commonality. Often its simply a case of convergent evolution.

[Cataphract]

Ok, let's just derail this thread some more.

There are documented relations between Europe and the East Asia since antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_conquests_in_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations

This may also be of some interest -
Submission Fighting and the Rules of Greek Wrestling
http://judoinfo.com/research8.pdf

[boxerbilly]

That's a rather vague statement. What is your point of reference? Cultures have been developing in isolation for tens of thousands of years.

You vastly overestimate the speed with which information could travel in ancient times. 4000-7000 years ago seems like a long time, but that's just a short, recent blip in reference to human culture (we've been farming for at least 11,000 year). Why do I use that 4-7k time frame? Because that is, according to our best evidence, the time in which humans first began using horses for transportation (and that's for the first, it took another 2-3000 years to become a widespread practice). Rapid transportation is the minimum necessity for the rate of information transfer we are talking about. People migrated on foot and covered great distances for sure, but that took far too long (again, tens of thousands of years). Cultures and their knowledge spring up and snuff out in far less time.

The reality is, many things were developed independently, by many peoples. Something as simple as a spear head, while functionally equivalent, may be fashioned entirely differently by different cultures (in fact, that very example is one prominent way we can differentiate the migration of ancient East Asian vs. Eurasian people).

Don't assume similarity indicates commonality. Often its simply a case of convergent evolution.


Everything you write makes sense but is it correct ? I don't know. Recently, maybe 3 month ago I was watching some documentary on tv. I think it was about Mayan or Ancient Puruvians. What they were saying was they found essentially Japanese artwork on the pottery. That was the same as what Japan was creating at the same time. Convergent Evolution ? One monkey discovered something and puff- we all know it know. Super conscious Jung stuff ? Maybe. Or maybe they covered more distance and a much faster rate than tens of thousands of years. It all really is a guess and whom you choose to believe I think,

[boxerbilly]

Ok, let's just derail this thread some more.

There are documented relations between Europe and the East Asia since antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_conquests_in_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations

This may also be of some interest -
Submission Fighting and the Rules of Greek Wrestling
http://judoinfo.com/research8.pdf

Thanks for the Wiki links. I have yet found time to read that pdf file. I skimmed it.

I would say sorry to be the impetus for derailing the thread but I may not be completely to blame but I did my part, lol and really when these things happen threads that may not have potential to grow because they are answered in 2 posts change direction because one writes something of further interest that has parallel relationship to the topic. I know some hate that. Neat and tidy but I think that way of thought chokes learning and understanding. Even if there is disagreement in what anyone believes. It present alternate possibilities.

Most nomadic or isolated tribes. Those that tended to remain outside of any civilization tend to stagnate in development across the board. So aside from the most primitive of skills there impact on civilization is next to nil. Now we do not have to go back tens of thousands of years even though some believe evidence exist that we may have got around a lot more than once believed. But just to time frames of around Jesus. We find people got around rather well, Traveling vast distances in relatively short time frames. Not days like now but perhaps months depending on water ways or a year depending on land paths. Trade is a basis of all civilization and commodity is the cause of all wars between civilization. Money and power. Even then. This is why archaeologist uncover material that should not be in one area because it has always been associated as only from another area. How did it get there ? Yes the possibility exist that someone figured out the same way. It happens but more likely it was traded somewhere along time and potentially modified so much the source has been lost and it becomes a educated guess at best.

If convergent evolution is such a great theory then why do primitive, isolated tribes have little in the way of anything advance, science or medicine or war like ? Basically they stayed hidden to avoid conflict. Not a bad thing if you want to live in a shack in the middle of nowhere. Which is for the most part how they live.

So for myself, I believe more so in we learned and expanded on that learning and dropped what had no need for in our area. Regardless the skill. We have always shared and improved on what we learned when possible. So, some country invade and kicks your ass. Captures prisoner soldiers. They have a choice after being removed by sat 1000 miles to be kept as slaves. Teach us your war arts or die. I wonder how many decide, death sucks, this is how we kick !

Could that not have been a [possibility and one that may in fact have more " belief" basis than , it came to me out of thin air. Which I also believe happens but not so much across the board or map if you prefer.

Edit. I watched some vids on the art. Just quickly. For the most part I believe most of the methods I watched share very little in common with modern or older methods of boxing going back a couple of hundred years. It looked closer to standing wrestling methods with hit inserts. I did watch another short clip and the guy was doing very similar motions with his staff that he did empty hand. Does anyone know if this art was derived from staff or spear arts as the base ?

[SoCo KungFu]

Ok, let's just derail this thread some more.

There are documented relations between Europe and the East Asia since antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_conquests_in_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations

This may also be of some interest -
Submission Fighting and the Rules of Greek Wrestling
http://judoinfo.com/research8.pdf

Look at the dates on those links again. Where does that fit into the timeline we're speaking about?

[SoCo KungFu]

Everything you write makes sense but is it correct ? I don't know.

Good thing there's internet for searching.


Recently, maybe 3 month ago I was watching some documentary on tv. I think it was about Mayan or Ancient Puruvians.

The people you are looking for are the Valdivia of c 3000 BC Ecuador. TV documentaries are not academic grade resources. You are referring to the hypothesis proposed by Meggers back in the 60's.


What they were saying was they found essentially Japanese artwork on the pottery. That was the same as what Japan was creating at the same time.

Not same. Similar. They weren't talking just about artwork. They were talking about overall traits. So lets see, two coastal peoples with similar tool needs, and its surprising that what they would create would be similar? (And no, they were not "essentially" the same, there were differences.)


Convergent Evolution ? One monkey discovered something and puff- we all know it know. Super conscious Jung stuff ? Maybe. Or maybe they covered more distance and a much faster rate than tens of thousands of years.

Or maybe you should do more reading than spouting off, in the process revealing you have no clue what I'm talking about.


It all really is a guess and whom you choose to believe I think,

No, you either have a value for evidence or you don't. I suppose those that don't would by result be ignorant enough of the matter to think its all guesswork.

[SoCo KungFu]

Thanks for the Wiki links. .....
stuff
.....

You're rambling. None of that was a consistent statement. I would encourage you to go back and clarify (first with yourself) exactly what it is you're trying to say.


Could that not have been a [possibility and one that may in fact have more " belief" basis than , it came to me out of thin air. Which I also believe happens but not so much across the board or map if you prefer.

Here you go with the ridiculous "out of this air" strawman again, masking that you don't actually know what I'm saying. I'm going to make this as basic as possible. Independent occurrences of the same problem. Should it be all that strange that in fixing those problems, people ultimately found quite similar solutions? Two different treatments for infection by a similar bacteria, one from TCM, the other from South American ancestral practices. Should it be surprising that when looking at the chemical profile of two different extracts from two different plants from two different continents, that are both used to treat two very similar (if not different strains of the same) microbial infections, would be similar themselves. That is why they both work, because they are similar. Similar, but independently evolved. And the preparations are similar. Imagine that. Finding common solutions to common problems is sort of the way things work. That's called efficiency.

[MarathonTmatt]

You're rambling. None of that was a consistent statement. I would encourage you to go back and clarify (first with yourself) exactly what it is you're trying to say.



Here you go with the ridiculous "out of this air" strawman again, masking that you don't actually know what I'm saying. I'm going to make this as basic as possible. Independent occurrences of the same problem. Should it be all that strange that in fixing those problems, people ultimately found quite similar solutions? Two different treatments for infection by a similar bacteria, one from TCM, the other from South American ancestral practices. Should it be surprising that when looking at the chemical profile of two different extracts from two different plants from two different continents, that are both used to treat two very similar (if not different strains of the same) microbial infections, would be similar themselves. That is why they both work, because they are similar. Similar, but independently evolved. And the preparations are similar. Imagine that. Finding common solutions to common problems is sort of the way things work. That's called efficiency.

SoCo,
You have very good points about convergent evolution and different cultures finding similar solutions to problems out of efficiency. I would agree with what you said about the different cultures finding similar but different plants to cure a common illness. However, Billy originally said that they were finding pottery that was similar (S. America and Japan.) Sorry I am writing this on the fly and don't have a link to any examples. But my question to you (and I will respect your input- I have grown to appreciate it) is, how would you account for a similarity in the expression of art, such as pottery styles (in both the shape of the pot/vase as well as the artwork on such an object)? This may even be seen in elements of architecture, etc. across cultures (an Indian architectual design compared with a Mayan design for instance). There are even striking common similarities in some of the ancient heiroglyphic alphabets of the oldest civilizations throughout the known world. It is in this sort of an area that somebody like myself or Billy or whoever might step back and say "well, maybe this isn't a coincidence." Also, alot of old cultures not only got around on foot but were able to travel great distances through the water ways and were very keen/ highly intellegent navigators (through river systems, in some cases, like the Polynesians across the Pacific ocean, etc.) What are your thoughts on these specific issues? Thanks.

[Cataphract]

Look at the dates on those links again. Where does that fit into the timeline we're speaking about?
Nowhere in particular. Someone started talking about Jews in China and Japanese pottery in South America and I thought they might fit the general theme. Hence the remark on derailing.

As a matter of fact I was always thinking of convergent evolution. Maybe my starting post should have been: Would somebody familiar to the original core ideas of Tong Bei say that western boxing exhibits "through the back" characteristics?

By the way, I read (on the internet) that the Japanese were unfamiliar to boxing with closed fists before Meiji restoration. Maybe the western way of boxing isn't as universal as some might believe.

[bawang]

So how do you punch somebody through your back?

valsalva maneuver

[boxerbilly]

You're rambling. None of that was a consistent statement. I would encourage you to go back and clarify (first with yourself) exactly what it is you're trying to say.



Here you go with the ridiculous "out of this air" strawman again, masking that you don't actually know what I'm saying. I'm going to make this as basic as possible. Independent occurrences of the same problem. Should it be all that strange that in fixing those problems, people ultimately found quite similar solutions? Two different treatments for infection by a similar bacteria, one from TCM, the other from South American ancestral practices. Should it be surprising that when looking at the chemical profile of two different extracts from two different plants from two different continents, that are both used to treat two very similar (if not different strains of the same) microbial infections, would be similar themselves. That is why they both work, because they are similar. Similar, but independently evolved. And the preparations are similar. Imagine that. Finding common solutions to common problems is sort of the way things work. That's called efficiency.

I ramble a lot. Probably brain damage. Thanks for pointing direction to look at.

[MarathonTmatt]

Did y'all notice....

He (SoCo) never responded to or looked at the orginal evidence that was brought up (the similarity in pottery/art styles.) What he did was, he introduced some other points to the topic of the conversation so he could say/ make the points that he wanted to. Notice how there is no mention on his behalf of the pottery styles--- he basically just ignored it and looked at things like styles of spear points, from other regions of the world (and I would have to agree with his points in that particular case) and how people used plants (again I would have to agree.) But he totally ignored the pottery/ similarities of art and what this might imply if further researched.... which is why it won't be further researched. The thing is, he made good points but not from the examples others were talking about, all while sounding like it is the final word on the subject, while trying to make other people look like idiots, which is dangerous. I tried to be nice about it and wasn't even met with a response.

[boxerbilly]

Did y'all notice....

He (SoCo) never responded to or looked at the orginal evidence that was brought up (the similarity in pottery/art styles.) What he did was, he introduced some other points to the topic of the conversation so he could say/ make the points that he wanted to. Notice how there is no mention on his behalf of the pottery styles--- he basically just ignored it and looked at things like styles of spear points, from other regions of the world (and I would have to agree with his points in that particular case) and how people used plants (again I would have to agree.) But he totally ignored the pottery/ similarities of art and what this might imply if further researched.... which is why it won't be further researched. The thing is, he made good points but not from the examples others were talking about, all while sounding like it is the final word on the subject, while trying to make other people look like idiots, which is dangerous. I tried to be nice about it and wasn't even met with a response.

My main thing is, I do not believe as much in isolated development. He may be correct in that I used examples to make my case that are time appropriate .Stylistic differences will happen. But, I still believe things were shared and altered. How they got shared may be hard to source. I used the Jews in that era to point out , the possibility exist that the Chinese may have adopted ideas from them. And vice versa. How many of those Jews may have decided after 5-10 years, China is not for us and left. Taking with them ideas and methods they picked up while there. Only to have to modify things once they settled elsewhere. Do to the now environment they were in. If in the case of pottery it could happen. Why not then in the case of martial arts or anything ?

Hope that makes sense. Is it true ? I don't know. But, I do believe the possibility exist and has stronger circumstantial evidence than many other possibilities. Could arts have developed isolated and complete form? I believe it is possible but it becomes unlikely in my opinion. What really makes it hard is even things 200 years old have convoluted history.

[boxerbilly]

My main thing is, I do not believe as much in isolated development. He may be correct in that I used examples to make my case that are time appropriate .Stylistic differences will happen. But, I still believe things were shared and altered. How they got shared may be hard to source. I used the Jews in that era to point out , the possibility exist that the Chinese may have adopted ideas from them. And vice versa. How many of those Jews may have decided after 5-10 years, China is not for us and left. Taking with them ideas and methods they picked up while there. Only to have to modify things once they settled elsewhere. Do to the now environment they were in. If in the case of pottery it could happen. Why not then in the case of martial arts or anything ?

Hope that makes sense. Is it true ? I don't know. But, I do believe the possibility exist and has stronger circumstantial evidence than many other possibilities. Could arts have developed isolated and complete form? I believe it is possible but it becomes unlikely in my opinion. What really makes it hard is even things 200 years old have convoluted history.

edit, Matt. I am glad you are posting again. I always enjoy your additions. BY the way, I asked you about Apache foot fighting in another thread on herbs I believe. You may have missed. If you know anything about that art could you pm me about it please. I used to know what it was more specifically called but the first time I was made aware of it was from a Mohawk who mentioned it by what I am calling it here. Thanks...

[mickey]

Greetings,

The meaning of Tong Bei was one I never accepted. I thought it was a reference to the heaviness and strength of the fist, being powerful enough to punch into the chest and exit through the back of the opponent. Time will tell on this.

mickey

[boxerbilly]

Greetings,

The meaning of Tong Bei was one I never accepted. I thought it was a reference to the heaviness and strength of the fist, being powerful enough to punch into the chest and exit through the back of the opponent. Time will tell on this.

mickey

You mean to actually punch through a guy ? I believe, possible only with a weapon. Not a bad mental picture for ideal. I just don't see it happening. There may have been some that could pierce certain areas of a body with the fingers. If so, it is doubtful there are any left in modern times. Can you imaging the time and effort it would take to achieve such a thing ? 10-20 years. And the damage done to the hands. I am not sure dit jow would help prevent damage.

[mickey]

Hi Billy,

Not literally. Just a name indicating that their striking method is a strong one.

mickey

[Cataphract]

The Greek boxers Cleomedes and Damoxenus disembowled their opponents with spear hand strikes.

[boxerbilly]

The Greek boxers Cleomedes and Damoxenus disembowled their opponents with spear hand strikes.

Thanks, I do not know very much about ancient Greece boxing or their martial arts in general aside from brief history study. I just found this Googled Cleomede's.

https://books.google.com/books?id=U-fc5X0cUjwC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=cleomedes+boxer+spear+hand+strikes&source=bl&ots=vx3fEKAgSh&sig=bzRuAWPe-tD6ueG1NmJ45SOt6ic&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIy467mqXZyAIVRl4eCh0ddwPU#v=on epage&q=cleomedes%20boxer%20spear%20hand%20strikes&f=false

If you scroll up a page it is being said that Boxing was considered more lethal than Pankration. First I have heard of this. I would have considered Pankration more so. Perhaps if these guys could penetrate flesh as deeply as suggested, (something I still have trouble believing ) , then maybe their boxing art was more complete and potentially sophisticated than we may give them credit ?

Edit, okay poking around my own gut, maybe they could have going upward under the rib cage, grabbing the rib and whatever else they could secure and ripping out. The speed of execution we might think needs to be great but maybe not ? Maybe it is all about having strong straight fingers to dig in as deeply as possible and then secure a bunch of everything and pull like the devil out. Maybe one would not need 10 years to do that ?

I never want to do that to anyone, LOL. No thanks!

[Cataphract]

And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.

[boxerbilly]

And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.

Is he the one credited with making karate safe for school kids ?

[Cataphract]

Yes, that was him. He was a government official and the driving force behind Karate's inclusion as a physical education program. He changed many the older forms. Some say he based his Pinan forms on a Chinese Channan, others argue he created them himself. Anyway they became the basic forms of his lineage. He was a very athletic man, but there were tensions with his master Matsumora (who had studied for many years in Fujian) for not being nimble enough, or so the story goes.

[David Jamieson]

And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.

Chef Chan can eviscerate a chicken without the use of knives. I think that has more to do with physiological understanding of the skinned beast in question. It is pretty amazing to watch someone de-bone a chicken without a knife though.
We can all tear at meat. It's fibrous muscle tissue.

[Cataphract]

How much force does it take to tear a muscle? Depends on the cross section. Sure it happens, but seldom by hand. You have to work mostly against the collagen in the muscle‘s connective tissue. I‘ve found 20 MPa as maximum for the ultimate tensile strength of skin, which should be similar. Rubber has 16, pine wood 40. Problem isn‘t as much snapping rubber, but the necessary grip strength. Meat is slippery.

I for one find his feat impressive.

[boxerbilly]

I used to chin and elbow dig and grab skin to get guys to move their arms when I wrestled. We all did ! Of course don't get caught. I use to grab the skin with the first row of knuckles after the finger tip like I was making a fist. Hard to spot and it only takes a second and elbows tend to move fast.

[guy b.]

This makes me wonder all the more if Bawang was not onto something with WC is a knife art. It may not have begun that way. But, ideas may have been adopted based on a certain knife of the day. Somewhere that understand was possibly lost or forgot or just never discussed and so most know believe, it was never the case. Either could be right because as some have pointed out. WC history is somewhat murky.

Absolutely not. Wing chun is a spear art. Knives were bolted on between 90 and 125 years ago. Wrong knives and wrong approach for any earlier. Why learn a principle based ma with knives as the ultimate goal when different principles apply to the knives? Complete waste of time, lol. Knife based art starts with the knife and builds empty hand on, not other way around.

[boxerbilly]

Absolutely not. Wing chun is a spear art. Knives were bolted on between 90 and 125 years ago. Wrong knives and wrong approach for any earlier. Why learn a principle based ma with knives as the ultimate goal when different principles apply to the knives? Complete waste of time, lol. Knife based art starts with the knife and builds empty hand on, not other way around.

Makes sense and that is your belief and probably many believe just that. Bawang said otherwise. So, I do not know but I wonder, does the possibility exist ? Bawangs WC friends believe so if I understood him correctly.

[bawang]

Wing chun is a spear art

lol

kjhkjhkh

[guy b.]

lol

kjhkjhkh



Lol lol

[SPJ]

There are several branches of modern tong bei.

They all require extreme flexibility around the shoulder/back/chest.

Most people think that they are striking methods only. Actually, there are many throws, too.

The basic stepping methods of deng and ta. It takes a lot of practice. There are a lot of jumps, too.

Flexibility all over your body and joints.

:cool:

[PalmStriker]

:) REAL TONG BEI BOXING: http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/01/19/gorillas-omaha-zoo-throw-punches-amazing-onlookers

[PalmStriker]

:D BAD to the BONE : https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=aAOSiVmpHzg

[Cataphract]

Just found a concise definition of Tong Bi:


THROUGH-THE-ARM (another name for reaching punch):
Your right hand, starting out with its palm facing downward, sends out a reaching punch, your left hand bending in toward your chest. Then your left hand goes from below your right fist, also coming out as a reaching punch, your right hand bending in to your chest. Repeat this for a total of four punches. Your feet are in an alignment stance and go along with your reaching punches by pivoting side to side. Reaching punches should always be pointing as a vertical fist with the back of the hand slightly visible to you, for punching with the back of the hand facing outward [i.e. bending the wrist inward] is a bad habit that will lead to sprains.
Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan, Translation by Paul Brennan link (https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/boxing-methods-of-the-internal-school-nei-jia-quan-fa/)

Can easily be found in the Shaolin Da Tong Bei form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXNByYRPmbk

Now, is this western boxing? Those "far" punches are surely there, but this is hardly the definition of boxing, I think.

[Jimbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USzBluQjvj0&sns=em

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USzBluQjvj0&sns=em

Yes. There are many striking conditioning drills. Da Zhuang Da Dai. Strike cushioned poles and strike sand/bean/flour bags.

The stepping methods are very very important, too. So we placed several cushioned poles. We step and strike.

:cool:

Tong Bei is considered as long fists.

Shaolin fist especially southern shaolin is considered as short fists.

Shaolin tong bi (as shown in video posted) are short fists derivative. They have nothing to do with Tong Bei.

:)

[Cataphract]

Shi De Yang's form does not seem that far removed from this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm6dCpOnRAQ

Same principle of power generation that Huang Baijia described in the epitaph.

[Cataphract]

Incidentally it is the same method that powered Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRf49fMVOLE).

[bawang]

through the back means punching with abdominal bracing instead of relaxed. you learn this on the first day of kung fu class.

r u some sort of karate kenpo guy who is bicurious about kung fu

[Cataphract]

Kenpo is obscure and expensive around here. We've had this before - just some random crosstraining guy getting his kicks out of watching manly Kung Fu hunks like yourself.

Anyway, you could have told me so four months ago. All this "through the back" and "through the arm" seems to confuse a lot more people than just me.