The Jesus debate/superstition

[wiz cool c]

Why is it every time Jesus is mentioned logic and reason go out the window? Yesterday I’m sitting on the bus in the back row alone and a lady sits next to me, says hi in English and mentions Jesus. She speaks some English but not well I speak Chinese, also not great. So she starts telling me her grandfather and father and mother all are Jesus freaks, cough cough I mean Christians. So I chat a bit, and am contemplating whether to tell her I believe in the Hindu religion,[ if I want to go there with her, cause I know the routine]. So I mention it anyway, suddenly she stiffens up looks straight ahead and make some weird face, then begins with the [Jesus is the only real religion bit I have heard so many times]. I go on to explain according to the Hindu religion all the religions are real but God sends down different messages for different times and they deal with the people according to their spiritual level and mentality[which makes logical sense].as usual she has nothing to say other than Jesus is the only real God /religion.

I start to explain now in Chinese ,lower middle and higher level and Christian religion is lower level based on the content of the Christian bible. For example fear of God, to se someone out of fear is the lowest form of service, to serve in love is the highest form of service. She isn’t hearing any of it, after all this all make logical sense. My wife said it the best the Christian religion make smart people stupid. Can you imagine sitting next to a stranger, starting a conversation about your religion and then telling them their religion is not real but yours is? Unbelievably ignorant, and then to top it off, no logic or reasoning pertain to this topic whatsoever.
.

[Kellen Bassette]

Can you imagine sitting next to a stranger, starting a conversation about your religion and then telling them their religion is not real but yours is? Unbelievably ignorant, and then to top it off, no logic or reasoning pertain to this topic whatsoever.
.

That would be as bad as starting a thread calling Christianity a "superstition", while opining that Sanatana Dharma is logical.

[wiz cool c]

su-per-sti-tion





[soo-per-stish-uh n]

Spell Syllables

Examples
Word Origin


noun
1.
a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge. sounds about right

[wiz cool c]

if I went next to a Chinese person on the bus and said hi[America is good]' and they said well ok china is good too. And I said ['no only America is good]'. They go on to say well in china there is little violence a low divorce rate, I answer with no only America is good, well.

[boxerbilly]

I am a Christian.

I also think the things you (WizC) mentioned in your first post are correct. That others like Jesus walked this earth.

I generally do not get offended by others beliefs. Or lack of them. I don't really care because I believe there will be common ground regardless. Instead of seeking that which separates us, I look for that which joins us.

Now if you eat my dog I will eat your cow.

Anyway, it is belief and trust and yeah that takes faith but as you pointed out, it may not be based on reason or knowledge but I do not agree with that. I believe it is based on reason and knowledge but " GOD" may not be provable by any method of measurement we have today. Jesus I believe most certainly walked this earth.

I probably don't have much more to add but you are going to burn in hell, LOL. Just kidding. I do not believe in Hell aside from we may be living in it or living it.

Edit, you may have just made some enemies buddy. I wont be one of them.

[wiz cool c]

ok I am not going to argue with you boxerbilly simply because you did not say your religion is real mine is fake, yes you have right to your belief and I have a right to mine, that is the point here. Thank you

[wiz cool c]

just a side note on the hell thing, in the Hindu religion hell is there[meaning an actual place not a state of being] but it is not eternal. The reason is as eternal spirit souls life in one material body is like a bubble in the ocean, a brief second in time.We believe[Hindu religion ] God will not punish one for eternity for a brief mistake.

[boxerbilly]

just a side note on the hell thing, in the Hindu religion hell is there[meaning an actual place not a state of being] but it is not eternal. The reason is as eternal spirit souls life in one material body is like a bubble in the ocean, a brief second in time.We believe[Hindu religion ] God will not punish one for eternity for a brief mistake.

We have something similar. Some call it purgatory. Like it is a bad thing. If there is such a realm, then it's purpose it to allow you to grow spiritually so you can essentially graduate to the next level. That is not a bad thing.

I personally do not believe in a place called hell. Again, if there is such a place I cant imagine it being any worse that here and now. The way we treat one another. The horror we cause against each other. Or, it is a state of being. One that you may be self imposing or is being imposed on you.

[wiz cool c]

if all Christians were like you boxerbilly I would have absolutely no beef with this religion. actually the Vedic scriptures predict Jesus and the other missionaries, profits, incarnations whatever the name is. so Hindus do believe in Jesus as well. I agree it is hard to believe a planet dedicated to punishing souls for their sins, but from our own limited experience we can see on this earth prisons exit. Places like Alcatraz were a whole island dedicated to punishment

[boxerbilly]

if all Christians were like you boxerbilly I would have absolutely no beef with this religion. actually the Vedic scriptures predict Jesus and the other missionaries, profits, incarnations whatever the name is. so Hindus do believe in Jesus as well. I agree it is hard to believe a planet dedicated to punishing souls for their sins, but from our own limited experience we can see on this earth prisons exit. Places like Alcatraz were a whole island dedicated to punishment

Well we are not all that way just as not all Hindus are the same or all Muslims believe the same. There is nothing wrong with religions. It is the guys controlling those religions that becomes a problem. They make it political. How many different Christion Sects are there ? Or Denomination if you prefer that word. To **** many. Even they cant agree on ****. POLITICS. So they war. Just another f-ing joke we all allow. Religion is BIG BUCKS. And where dollars flow, Devils will follow. Not that all are Devils. Some are very good.

Anyway, have a good night dude. Or morning if that is what it is in China.

[Jimbo]

I was brought up in the Catholic religion, but not hard core like some people. As a kid, church every Sunday, and catechism on Thursday afternoons. I kind of sat through it but wasn't that into it. I began to pull away from the religion in my teens, but always maintained a strong belief in a Divine Creator/Divine Intelligence. Just not the angry, Caucasian, bearded giant sitting on a throne up in the clouds, waiting for any little infraction on my part to throw a childish tantrum and punish me.

I began to see things differently, not only by opening my mind, but through various personal spiritual experiences throughout my life that taught me that much of what is taught in organized religion is (for me) not applicable. I began to see that, although there are many great people in every religion, that there are also a high percentage who use religion as a way to feel superior to or manipulate others. There are also some self-professed religious people who don't even believe in spirit. I've heard so-called "God-fearing Christians" who could quote bible verses at will, but who state that common, simple things like ghosts and psychic experiences are a bunch of nonsense. Or that they're all the work of the devil. Those types can't even see their own hypocrisy.

IMO, there are people in power in every religion who have perverted the original intentions of the teachings to suit their own agendas, and many who blindly follow them. People talk about martial arts students who blindly follow certain traditions or teachers, but with religions, that potential is ten-fold.

Again, I've known some awesome people who are religious, but such people invariably accept others' beliefs as equal to their own. They don't see the need to 'convert' others to their beliefs. They can even, without judgment, accept those who are judgmental or negative towards them and their beliefs. That last one is a tough one. I'm still working on it. Anyway, in the end, beliefs are only beliefs. Actual personal experiences create knowledge within yourself of your own truth, and IMO, those truths are ultimately universal.

[wiz cool c]

you make some good points there Jimbo

[Kellen Bassette]

Just not the angry, Caucasian, bearded giant sitting on a throne up in the clouds, waiting for any little infraction on my part to throw a childish tantrum and punish me.


This is a Western construct based on a lack of understanding of Eastern ideas.

[boxerbilly]

I was brought up in the Catholic religion, but not hard core like some people. As a kid, church every Sunday, and catechism on Thursday afternoons. I kind of sat through it but wasn't that into it. I began to pull away from the religion in my teens, but always maintained a strong belief in a Divine Creator/Divine Intelligence. Just not the angry, Caucasian, bearded giant sitting on a throne up in the clouds, waiting for any little infraction on my part to throw a childish tantrum and punish me.

I began to see things differently, not only by opening my mind, but through various personal spiritual experiences throughout my life that taught me that much of what is taught in organized religion is (for me) not applicable. I began to see that, although there are many great people in every religion, that there are also a high percentage who use religion as a way to feel superior to or manipulate others. There are also some self-professed religious people who don't even believe in spirit. I've heard so-called "God-fearing Christians" who could quote bible verses at will, but who state that common, simple things like ghosts and psychic experiences are a bunch of nonsense. Or that they're all the work of the devil. Those types can't even see their own hypocrisy.

IMO, there are people in power in every religion who have perverted the original intentions of the teachings to suit their own agendas, and many who blindly follow them. People talk about martial arts students who blindly follow certain traditions or teachers, but with religions, that potential is ten-fold.

Again, I've known some awesome people who are religious, but such people invariably accept others' beliefs as equal to their own. They don't see the need to 'convert' others to their beliefs. They can even, without judgment, accept those who are judgmental or negative towards them and their beliefs. That last one is a tough one. I'm still working on it. Anyway, in the end, beliefs are only beliefs. Actual personal experiences create knowledge within yourself of your own truth, and IMO, those truths are ultimately universal.

I hope one day I can write and convey as well as you do Jim.

[PalmStriker]

:) I find it amusing that religion minded people consider all non-religion minded people to be atheists. Spirituality does not require a religion, Buddha be praised. Or, if someone does no "worshiping" they have no faith. Like that is a bad thing.

[boxerbilly]

:) I find it amusing that religion minded people consider all non-religion minded people to be atheists. Spirituality does not require a religion, Buddha be praised. Or, if someone does no "worshiping" they have no faith. Like that is a bad thing.

I am sorry. You are in the wrong forum and thread. What you want is the Atheist Anonymous thread started in one of the other forums. Why are you here?

It's all good dude. I have or had friends of all sorts of beliefs or lack of them. It actually seldom came up unless I told them they were going to burn in Hell or was told Allah hates white dudes.

[PalmStriker]

:) Word "Debate" in thread brings me back for two last posts: https://www.google.com/search?q=buddha+be+praised&biw=1440&bih=799&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CDAQsARqFQoTCP_L5a_I3sgCFQJIiAodWGUJkw

[boxerbilly]

:) Word "Debate" in thread brings me back for one last post: https://www.google.com/search?q=buddha+be+praised&biw=1440&bih=799&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CDAQsARqFQoTCP_L5a_I3sgCFQJIiAodWGUJkw

I am not sure if he just chose that title based on a immediate experience or if WizC was asking for debate. I assumed the first. I had considered debating the Bible is lower level teachings based on fear. Old Testament probably. But I do not fear God.

That said, most Christians would think I am a bad Christian and I would likely agree with them if I believed like many of them do. I guess it boils down to interpretation. Do I listen to another guy because he has the schooling and works under certain guidelines of his Denomination. Or do I listen to my own heart and reasoning ? And ask for guidance when I am unsure ? By the way, I had Clergy in my family. He has since died. He never pushed anything on me. Never demanded I go to church or pray or any of it. If I had questions he would answer. I did not always agree with his answers. We had fun. He was a very smart man. Tremendous knowledge of history.

[boxerbilly]

Anyway, all this chit chat reminds me of probably the most important scene ever filmed for man kind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnRd0Nll5Hw

[PalmStriker]

:) Some people on the planet , actually many, take their religion formats 100% serious. What's at stake can be everything someone lives for if they believe what they do, say, and think will alter the outcome of a desired goal/destination. For a person of Native Chinese Ancestry to live in China practicing Christian or Vedic/Hindu Faith ~ seems like it could automatically be a strain on them, likewise for a Native Indian to be a Christian in India. Of course there are communities with support systems in place but I would think that most Chinese living in China, especially the mainland would automatically assume that American tourists are Christians if they are religious or maybe Buddhists, if they stay awhile and speak the language. In any case, this movie sums it up nicely for those of you who have not seen it yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diyTWCwGSzg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am a Christian, devout as a matter of fact.
I have a Bach, in Business and Mech engineering.
I do NOT view the bible as "lower level".
I also have a masters in Theological studies, my major being in NT teachings.

The issue with religion doesn't exist.
The only real issue is with ORGANIZED religion and people that are TOLD by others in power, others with things to lose, that they must believe "X" and are to lazy to find out for themselves what the bible ACTUALLY says and why.

If you don't care enough to learn and study about something as complex is the bible, then don't go around discussing it.

Religion is simply a set of beliefs in, typically, the supernatural, so ANYONE that has beliefs IS religious.
To go around blaming religion for people's stupidity is like blaming baseball for when your team loses.

Organized religion is when a small group of people decide for others what THEY ( these others) are suppose to believe and do and they ( these others) follow them, almost blindly at times.

I can't begin to list home many doctrines in some organized christian religions have ZERO to do with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles and how easy it is to see that IF people wpould simply just read the very book they profess to hold so dear.

[boxerbilly]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1288143]I am a Christian, devout as a matter of fact.


Organized religion is when a small group of people decide for others what THEY ( these others) are suppose to believe and do and they ( these others) follow them, almost blindly at times.

QUOTE]

That would = Politics to my reasoning.

Well wrote post. I agree.

[wiz cool c]

here is another story about the brilliance of Christianity. Back in the states over a decade ago I was working as a trainer in the gym. One of the other trainers a black girl and I somehow got into the religion topic. I mention reincarnation, she isn’t haven’t it[God forbid someone has a different point of view]she states “God doesn’t recycle souls” and quickly walks away. first off,a little catch phrases proves nothing, second in the Hindu religion the first most basic of all principles is to know you are not this material body but pure spirit soul. The soul never changes but the body does [unless you return to the spiritual world aka heaven where you get a spiritual body and soul and body are one and the same].so she does not distinguish between the body and soul. this would be equivalent to a kindergarten level of religion. Now I wouldn’t have a problem with people believing in these primitive beliefs if they didn’t constantly tell me my religion is fake and only theirs is the real one.

I remember another Christian or two mentioning animals have no souls, again not being able to distinguish between body and soul. Being that matter has no consciousness and it is the soul that animates the body.

[sanjuro_ronin]

here is another story about the brilliance of Christianity. Back in the states over a decade ago I was working as a trainer in the gym. One of the other trainers a black girl and I somehow got into the religion topic. I mention reincarnation, she isn’t haven’t it[God forbid someone has a different point of view]she states “God doesn’t recycle souls” and quickly walks away. first off,a little catch phrases proves nothing, second in the Hindu religion the first most basic of all principles is to know you are not this material body but pure spirit soul. The soul never changes but the body does [unless you return to the spiritual world aka heaven where you get a spiritual body and soul and body are one and the same].so she does not distinguish between the body and soul. this would be equivalent to a kindergarten level of religion. Now I wouldn’t have a problem with people believing in these primitive beliefs if they didn’t constantly tell me my religion is fake and only theirs is the real one.

I remember another Christian or two mentioning animals have no souls, again not being able to distinguish between body and soul. Being that matter has no consciousness and it is the soul that animates the body.

You shouldn't confuse the ignorance of a believer with what a religion actually states.
It is a sad statement on Christianity that the majority of the people that tend to be "vocal Christians" tend to be very ignorant of their own faith.
Of course I have found this in ALL ideologies also, so...

I think you need to stop trying to make Christianity look like a "low level religion" when you don't know much about it other than what you THINK you know via 3rd party views.
You are in a MA forum, I would think you would be painfully aware of the dangers of uninformed opinion trying to be passed of as educated understanding.

[boxerbilly]

You shouldn't confuse the ignorance of a believer with what a religion actually states.
It is a sad statement on Christianity that the majority of the people that tend to be "vocal Christians" tend to be very ignorant of their own faith.
Of course I have found this in ALL ideologies also, so...

I think you need to stop trying to make Christianity look like a "low level religion" when you don't know much about it other than what you THINK you know via 3rd party views.
You are in a MA forum, I would think you would be painfully aware of the dangers of uninformed opinion trying to be passed of as educated understanding.

I got myself slapped around for spouting off about WC. LOL, I like those guys !

Yeah, WizC, I understand your anger and resentment but many of us are considerate and understanding of others beliefs. And there is a great deal in most religions that are at their core teachings , basically the same. My belief anyway. Others opinion's will vary. I just think for the most part we all want the same things and believe pretty much the same way. Do your best to be good and not hurt others and be kind and giving and gracious and it is just to numerous to list. We are after all, all of us, human.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got myself slapped around for spouting off about WC. LOL, I like those guys !

Yeah, WizC, I understand your anger and resentment but many of us are considerate and understanding of others beliefs. And there is a great deal in most religions that are at their core teachings , basically the same. My belief anyway. Others opinion's will vary. I just think for the most part we all want the same things and believe pretty much the same way. Do your best to be good and not hurt others and be kind and giving and gracious and it is just to numerous to list. We are after all, all of us, human.

The one thing I have found is that every ideology has their extremists, those that believe that THEIR way is the ONLY way.
Here is something that organized religion doesn't want you to know and that is that YOU decide and YOU have to answer for it ( whatever that may mean).
In regards to Christianity:
Christians believe that Christ is the only path to salvation, that no other way will get you saved.
But saved from what?
Some, perhaps many, will say "saved from hell" or "saved from eternal ****ation" and all that other stuff.
BUT what does the bible EXPLICITLY state?
Belief in Christ saves you from JUDGMENT.
What happens to those that do not believe?
They are judged base don their actions.

Biblical proof of this?

Why, right here:
Gospel of John, Chapter 5:

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Of course it is convenient for some to keep this from people, to make them believe they must do this and that, that they must belong to this and that, so that they may be contolled and so that thos ewiht power, keep that power.

[boxerbilly]

The one thing I have found is that every ideology has their extremists, those that believe that THEIR way is the ONLY way.
Here is something that organized religion doesn't want you to know and that is that YOU decide and YOU have to answer for it ( whatever that may mean).
In regards to Christianity:
Christians believe that Christ is the only path to salvation, that no other way will get you saved.
But saved from what?
Some, perhaps many, will say "saved from hell" or "saved from eternal ****ation" and all that other stuff.
BUT what does the bible EXPLICITLY state?
Belief in Christ saves you from JUDGMENT.
What happens to those that do not believe?
They are judged base don their actions.

Biblical proof of this?

Why, right here:
Gospel of John, Chapter 5:

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Of course it is convenient for some to keep this from people, to make them believe they must do this and that, that they must belong to this and that, so that they may be contolled and so that thos ewiht power, keep that power.

I agree. We are already saved. How do they miss that ? Why can people not THINK ? Or it is okay to have faith in 'Ill go the hell" But not to believe, you are already saved dude, lets move on -?

Or as WizC pointed out about FEAR of God. It does not mean be afraid of God but to RESPECT God. It can also mean or is being used to point out that ine that does not follow this rule may suffer immediate consequences. As in, do not covet they neighbors wife. Not because you are going to burn in hell but you may be burnt at the stake by the community if you fail to heed that suggestion. So ie, FEAR that stuff. Not because God will cause you eternal suffering but because your fellow man will hurt you bad.
Or, to give you life for a friend is the highest form of love and if you could do that the only thin left to fear would be God. Meaning ? Well, I'll let others decide that for themselves.

We are not to be AFRAID of God. We are to respectful and awestruck really. Lets imgine this. If God showed up in any other form but that which we are used to, I think we all would be pretty afraid then. As in FEARFUL and ARFRAID. If he told you, do not fear me I have not come to hurt you and one way or another you believed him. You would show him respect at first out of fear and later - probably out of love. And that my friends is what it is all about. LOVE !

[boxerbilly]

Here are some Bible passages about Love. I will let anyone interested figure out what they mean to themselves. What do these versus mean ? Could they also be interpreted other ways ? How many meanings can we use for the word Love ? Imagine if we actually achieved that state all the time. What else could we possibly be ready to learn next? Would we see things or understand things different ? I really do not know. I still have trouble with love. LOL. Man, my heart is full of hate. But I do strive to drop that stuff.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/love-bible-verses/

[David Jamieson]

I subscribe to no religion at all.

I am ok with Jesus though. I like what is written about his teaching.

The people I notice to be very religious tend to have other troubles in their lives and other fears about life in general.
Fervency and fanaticism being a sure sign that something is not sitting quite right upstairs. This applies to all zealots in all organized religions or other. So, Hindus sitting with their arms in the air until the thing is useless and atrophied? Man, you are harming yourself. Buddhists who apply religious dogma and doctrine to what is otherwise a simple message and then, in the name of the Buddha kill others to enforce property for their own populations of like minded fellows? Yeah, they are doing it wrong too. Muslims who go to extremes and take jihad into the real world instead of the metaphysical struggle it is intended to be, that is not in keeping with the Q'uran and on and on the wheel spins.

There are basic truths in being a human being and walking around living a life. All teachers, prophets, lords and ladies on upper levels of consciousness & knowing have pointed it out to us for all time.

Live by their example, not by trying to shove it down someone else's throat. If we can live in harmony, it will be because we keep our beliefs to ourselves.

There is contradiction in all religious texts of all faiths. Just like there are contradictions in how your think and feel about life compared to how you have truthfully and actually led your life.

Hypocrites tend to be the loudest in trying to convince you their game is the only game. There is that. :)

[wiz cool c]

Boxerbilly, you in my opinion behave the way a Christian should. turn the other cheek thing surely means have tolerance, and not to constantly point fingers at others who believe in anything other than you and tell them they will burn in hell for eternity. And sure there are some wacky things in Hinduism, but I don’t see them bothering other people which is the point here.

There are many forms of Hinduism, the one I practice teaches rules like no gambling, no meat eating ,no sex for the sake of fun[I haven’t yet conquered this one] no intoxication, basically love of God, self realization and detachment to this world and attachment to the spiritual. I can mention so many reason why God says not to eat meat, but I never preach to anyone that they should be a vegetarian. If you meat eaters out there were constantly being harassed by Hindus telling you in your next life you will have to pay with your life and karma will have you go into an animal body and be killed for meat, I am pretty sure sooner or later you will start to hate this religion. I saw in the news recently the lady that refused to give a marriage license to a gay couple based on her Christian beliefs, come on tough skin or not this **** gets annoying.

[Kellen Bassette]

I do NOT view the bible as "lower level".

Wiz has a very low level understanding of Christianity, so he superimposes his ignorance on an entire religion. But frankly, if he can't see the glaring hypocrisy of his original post, no amount of common sense from you can help him. I only pray he doesn't do too much to tarnish the reputations of Hindus the world over.

[wiz cool c]

the angry, Caucasian, bearded giant sitting on a throne up in the clouds, waiting for any little infraction on my part to throw a childish tantrum and punish me.

kettledrum will be praying to him for my soul

[Kellen Bassette]

kettledrum will be praying to him for my soul

You won't be so insolent when the Yamaduta take you to Naraka.

But seriously, I want better than "kettledrum."

[wiz cool c]

Basically he is telling me I am going to hell in Hindu terms. a Christian telling someone they are going to hell, what a surprise

[sanjuro_ronin]

Re: Christian tolerance ( or lackthereof).
The reality is that we are ALL intolerant and we are ALL tolerant.
It depends on whether our beliefs are being attacked in a moderate or aggressive manner.
I disagree with Gay marriage BUT I would never deny a gay couples right to be married if the law allowed it ( civil marriage).
On the same side, I think it is wrong to deny a religious organization the right to refuse to marry a gay couple if it is against their religious beliefs.
It really is quite obvious that ALL rights need to be respected -
The couple's right to wed in a legal ceremony and the church's right to refuse in a religious ceremony.
A civil servant does NOT have the right to deny a gay couple's wedding application or licence, though they should have the right to not do it themselves , in other words, the person should have removed themselves from the situation and allowed someone else to serve the gay couple.
If we are to respect the rights of the gay couple to wed, then we also have to respect the rights of those that disagree BUT do NOT infringe on anyone else's rights.
render to Caesar, that which is Caesar's.

Christians need to remember that NO ONE converts anyone other than by the Holy Spirit.
All we can do is "point the way" and preach the word of God and, as St. Francis said: IF we have to, we can even use WORDS for that.

Christians should be looking to lead by example in love, compassion and tolerance, just like the example of the apostles and the first century christians that we have.

[boxerbilly]

Re: Christian tolerance ( or lackthereof).
The reality is that we are ALL intolerant and we are ALL tolerant.
It depends on whether our beliefs are being attacked in a moderate or aggressive manner.
I disagree with Gay marriage BUT I would never deny a gay couples right to be married if the law allowed it ( civil marriage).
On the same side, I think it is wrong to deny a religious organization the right to refuse to marry a gay couple if it is against their religious beliefs.
It really is quite obvious that ALL rights need to be respected -
The couple's right to wed in a legal ceremony and the church's right to refuse in a religious ceremony.
A civil servant does NOT have the right to deny a gay couple's wedding application or licence, though they should have the right to not do it themselves , in other words, the person should have removed themselves from the situation and allowed someone else to serve the gay couple.
If we are to respect the rights of the gay couple to wed, then we also have to respect the rights of those that disagree BUT do NOT infringe on anyone else's rights.
render to Caesar, that which is Caesar's.

Christians need to remember that NO ONE converts anyone other than by the Holy Spirit.
All we can do is "point the way" and preach the word of God and, as St. Francis said: IF we have to, we can even use WORDS for that.

Christians should be looking to lead by example in love, compassion and tolerance, just like the example of the apostles and the first century christians that we have.

Funny. I think "gay " is wrong. But if I really think about it. it is wrong for me. I don't get it. I don't feel it. I have no sexual attraction to me. I do enjoy hanging with guys and talking ,etc. But, I don't even have time for that any longer. Hence, the virtual world, LOL. All us who would probably never be friends any other way.

Now, if someone is gay and wants to be married. I say, let them. Why should straight people be the only ones to suffer marriage ? BY the way, I have a gay nephew. He is a soldier. Openly gay. Never bothered me. I do ask, he refrain form kissing his boyfriends in my presence but I have seen that to and aside from the YUK my factor for me. My life was not ruined. And I always told him. It is okay to be gay.

[Kellen Bassette]

Basically he is telling me I am going to hell in Hindu terms. a Christian telling someone they are going to hell, what a surprise

I'm simply trying to show respect for your religion. I don't understand the animosity.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Funny. I think "gay " is wrong. But if I really think about it. it is wrong for me. I don't get it. I don't feel it. I have no sexual attraction to me. I do enjoy hanging with guys and talking ,etc. But, I don't even have time for that any longer. Hence, the virtual world, LOL. All us who would probably never be friends any other way.

Now, if someone is gay and wants to be married. I say, let them. Why should straight people be the only ones to suffer marriage ? BY the way, I have a gay nephew. He is a soldier. Openly gay. Never bothered me. I do ask, he refrain form kissing his boyfriends in my presence but I have seen that to and aside from the YUK my factor for me. My life was not ruined. And I always told him. It is okay to be gay.

This isn't a thread about the "right and wrongness" of ****sexuality, that is obviously a combination of logical and emotional arguments.
I have 3 family members that are gay, not to mention we have a personal friend that is a lesbian ( married with two adopted kids).
It is not an easy issue to deal with in any shape or form.

As Christians we are remind to "hate the sin, love the sinner" and we need to remember that ****sexuality is no more or no less than any other sin as well.
If you believe in sin of course ( and Christians do of course).