Secrets

[Wayfaring]

So,

After a very enlightening weekend, I've been deeply considering secrets and wing chun.
Some say there are no secrets in wing chun, others have a different perspective.

I am forming my opinion and wanted to get the community's input.

Thoughts?

[GlennR]

So,

After a very enlightening weekend, I've been deeply considering secrets and wing chun.
Some say there are no secrets in wing chun, others have a different perspective.

I am forming my opinion and wanted to get the community's input.

Thoughts?

Secrets?
Well, never seen anybody with "secrets" any better than the guys that just get in and train, with a good working knowledge of the style of course.

Secrets..... ill pass on that

[wckf92]

So,

After a very enlightening weekend, I've been deeply considering secrets and wing chun.
Some say there are no secrets in wing chun, others have a different perspective.

I am forming my opinion and wanted to get the community's input.

Thoughts?

Hmmm. Well, I think there are some tidbits which may not be well known (?). But perhaps a student needs to show loyalty over a period of time (and skill) in order to be exposed them them...?

[boxerbilly]

Hmmm. Well, I think there are some tidbits which may not be well known (?). But perhaps a student needs to show loyalty over a period of time (and skill) in order to be exposed them them...?

That is certainly a way to keep the people's paying. Just saying.

edit, now I understand withholding if someone is not able to understand or is not physically able to perform them yet.

[Wayfaring]

Secrets?
Well, never seen anybody with "secrets" any better than the guys that just get in and train, with a good working knowledge of the style of course.

Secrets..... ill pass on that

Are there any secrets in obtaining what you would consider a good working knowledge of the style?

Are there any secrets left in the style itself?

[Wayfaring]

That is certainly a way to keep the people's paying. Just saying.

edit, now I understand withholding if someone is not able to understand or is not physically able to perform them yet.

Those are 3 reasons for secrets - one we all would consider morally deficient the other 2 we would probably consider good instruction.

Boxerbilly you grew up in boxing gyms no? How did the unfolding of the sweet science work for you there?
Any of the above 3 ways? Other ways?

[Wayfaring]

Hmmm. Well, I think there are some tidbits which may not be well known (?). But perhaps a student needs to show loyalty over a period of time (and skill) in order to be exposed them them...?

You call them tidbits but I'm cataloging a 4th known reason from the community for secrets.

Thx guys this helps. I didn't immediately think of all these but only 1 or 2.

Any other reasons come to mind?

Any reasons for having no secrets? The other side of the coin?

[Wayfaring]

I thought of one more - competitive advantage.

This would be why Floyds training sessions are closed to public and video.

How does the community view this reason?

[boxerbilly]

Those are 3 reasons for secrets - one we all would consider morally deficient the other 2 we would probably consider good instruction.

Boxerbilly you grew up in boxing gyms no? How did the unfolding of the sweet science work for you there?
Any of the above 3 ways? Other ways?

Loyalty means **** there. If you are good you get attention and more coaching, lol.

Secrets ? I would say no. Everyone knew what everyone else could do and how the did it. Outside of the gym, you watched what the other guys from another place would do. Because they would all be similar. It was not rocket science. Either you were certain you were going to go in and beat the hell out of him or he was going to give you trouble. It depends if his style and abilities could cancel yours out. I have trouble with guys that could ACTUALLY box. I loved slugger because I was one and I tended to be better, hit hard and more than they could. I also was able to take it better than almost anyone I sparred or fought. I was generally in better shape. Boxers are lazy fu--ucks. We smoked, drank and did drugs as much as possible. That is the truth ! The few that did not either eventually did or ended up a level higher than the rest. They were more serious. I personally never had I want to be the greatest. I just wanted to be able to handle myself on the street.

Now, when I went to California , I thought, maybe I will try pro. I walked into one gym. So all those hungey, we are going to kill you white boy eyes in those little Mexicans, I was little to by the way. And said, Fu----ck that ! So, I ended up marrying one and now I get to fight Mexicans on a daily basis.

Fighting is a young mans game. Id be killed if I tried it now. They are not really any better in general but they are younger, stronger and in better shape. I can no longer take the hits like I could then. Even if I was 100%. That is the secret. Being in shape and training. Getting good at timing and counters and reading. I have worn glasses since I was 13. It makes those things very difficult with out them on. I simply di not have good enough tools.

[wckf92]

Any other reasons come to mind?

Any reasons for having no secrets? The other side of the coin?

I guess I'm saying that yes, to a junior student, he/she may think the more advanced topics yet unseen by them could be "secrets"...but time will eventually expose them to a diligent practitioner.
I do however firmly believe that 'lineage/family secrets" exist...only to be taught to extremely dedicated students or disciples of that family. One could easily say these are competitive advantages as well. ?
Dunno, just my .02
Thx

[Jimbo]

Interesting topic.

First off, I'll admit I'm not a Wing Chun practitioner (I'm a CLF man), but the concept of 'secrets' is pretty universal in CMA in general.

Some secrets are not really secrets, but could be as simple as tweaking a basic move or concept a bit to understand it more and be able to apply it better. Usually little details that are not initially taught to avoid overload.

As for there being one big secret (skill or technique) that would make a superior practitioner, IMO that doesn't really exist. I have seen some schools of various CMA styles that hold out that 'carrot on a stick' to maintain student interest and keep them paying for more stuff. The truth is, the most effective material is what you've learned early on and really practiced, drilled, sparred with and made your own. If something is really being kept secret and behind closed doors, then it's not being drilled and tested openly against all types of people, especially outsiders. So someone who has learned a bunch of secret skills but hasn't done that extensively will have less practical knowledge and ability than one who's drilled the basics under pressure. Chaos has a way of forcing people to revert back to whatever actions/reactions are natural, and in MA that will be what is most deeply ingrained.

But TBH, even in my own lineage, I've learned some material that I've been told not to show to outsiders, and I don't show them to anyone out of respect for my Sifu. I respect and appreciate that he's trusted me enough to share these things with me. But it's still the hard, proper training of the core skills that makes a better practitioner, IMO.

[GlennR]

Are there any secrets in obtaining what you would consider a good working knowledge of the style?

Are there any secrets left in the style itself?

I guess that depends on what you mean by secrets, advanced techniques.... sure
Special "secrets" that short cut you to invincibility............ no

The problem with the term is that a lot of people will think that learning these "secrets" will mean you can bypass good old fashioned hardwork i.e sparring, aerobics etc
I think boxerbillys post touched on this

[YouKnowWho]

but the concept of 'secrets' is pretty universal in CMA in general.
To me, secret is the "most effective method to solve a certain problem".

There are some secrets in CMA. If you don't know, you just don't know. For example, what's the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK0Y6wgUsHs&feature=youtu.be

[boxerbilly]

To me, secret is the "most effective method to solve a certain problem".

There are some secrets in CMA. If you don't know, you just don't know. For example, what's the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK0Y6wgUsHs&feature=youtu.be

I do not know.

[Wayfaring]

I guess that depends on what you mean by secrets, advanced techniques.... sure
Special "secrets" that short cut you to invincibility............ no

The problem with the term is that a lot of people will think that learning these "secrets" will mean you can bypass good old fashioned hardwork i.e sparring, aerobics etc
I think boxerbillys post touched on this

Ok advanced techniques one category maybe. Short cut you to invincibility no but how about a more reasonable goal of short cut to good foundation?

I also agree boxerbilly s post touched on a culture of less or no secret training but didn't know how to quantify or categorize. Boxing openness has closed training for fighters so fight strategy and strengths are masked but the 6 punches and basics are open

[Wayfaring]

To me, secret is the "most effective method to solve a certain problem".

There are some secrets in CMA. If you don't know, you just don't know. For example, what's the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK0Y6wgUsHs&feature=youtu.be

Nice one John. Yes I know the wrestling equivalent response and yes it is a true/false with what you know equals what you can stop

[Jimbo]

To me, secret is the "most effective method to solve a certain problem".

There are some secrets in CMA. If you don't know, you just don't know. For example, what's the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK0Y6wgUsHs&feature=youtu.be

Nice post.

I don't know what is the best counter to that, but I do have counters to similar attacks/moves, which I'm sure would be very different from your own.

My own definition of 'secrets' in CMA means secret within the system or even individual school. Is the attack/counter in your video clip commonly taught and practiced in your own school, or Shuai Jiao in general? If so, it might not be a secret within your system, even if it's unknown to people outside of your system. To outsiders it would be a secret.

Another example might be when many people think of CLF, they think it's basically wild, swinging punches involving little or no skill that are wide open to counters. An outsider might be unaware that CLF also uses many linear attacks, and short, close-in movements; nor be aware how those circular strikes are set up to work. To a non-CLF person, these things may be unknown and thus 'secret', but they might be common knowledge to many or most CLF fighters. Unless they're purposely hidden from some students in a particular school and taught/practiced by only a chosen few.

Sorry if I took any discussion away from Wing Chun, but in actuality it's really not; the very same points could apply to WC or to any MA.

[boxerbilly]

John is the man to ask about things.

Jimbo is the man to ask about other things.

I can tell you how to take a beating. So I recommend them !

I think it is a GREAT thing when people of different methods come together and share. The worst that can happen is you might make a friend. When was the last time anyone did that ? **** secrets !

[GlennR]

Ok advanced techniques one category maybe. Short cut you to invincibility no but how about a more reasonable goal of short cut to good foundation?

Sure, we talking a physical or mental thing here?


I also agree boxerbilly s post touched on a culture of less or no secret training but didn't know how to quantify or categorize. Boxing openness has closed training for fighters so fight strategy and strengths are masked but the 6 punches and basics are open

Well strategy is just that, strategy.
Its just an extension of the punches, defense and footwork.

I guess you could call that a secret, but that being the case, does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a "secret"
Where do you draw the line??

[boxerbilly]

Sure, we talking a physical or mental thing here?



Well strategy is just that, strategy.
Its just an extension of the punches, defense and footwork.

I guess you could call that a secret, but that being the case, does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a "secret"
Where do you draw the line??

Share the secrets. The worst that happens is it makes the next generation better than us. How much was lost in arts because the guy died before he decided to share it ?
All secrets are probably going to be brutally hard work so if fear keeps one from sharing, you really have little to worry about. How many left that do that ?

[guy b.]

So,

After a very enlightening weekend, I've been deeply considering secrets and wing chun.
Some say there are no secrets in wing chun, others have a different perspective.

I am forming my opinion and wanted to get the community's input.

Thoughts?


In the wing chun I have experienced there usually aren't secrets in terms of most students being taught fake rubbish with the real stuff being kept for the inner circle students. If there is then run away, it is a marketing scheme or something you will waste too much time and money on. Not worth it. I have a bit of experience in some other southern chinese MA that were a bit more like this than wing chun. After a while you realise it is a waste of time and that there are easier ways. I think wing chun is unusual in that the cultural component is quite small

Of course there are better and worse wing chun groups, teaching methods, training methodologies. There is proximity to the guy who is thinking up new stuff, and quality of understanding the original ideas. There is access to better fighters vs hobby people. There are elements of time spent and trust. In some cases financial or time commitments that need to be made. In some cases language and cultural commitments need to be made. All of these factors mean that there is a large variation in terms of the quality of teaching and learning that is available to any random person. Obviously quality varies massively.

As a beginning student that nobody knows, you are unlikely to get hold of any quality written or video material until you demonstrate a commitment. You are unlikely to get more than standard answers to technical questions you ask. As you spend more time and people get to know and trust you then of course this changes. I think this is the case for any skill or knowledge held by a small group of people. It is natural.

[boxerbilly]

Hi Guy,

Not in boxing and wrestling. ITF most guys were open. It really depended who you asked stuff to. Some guys were ****s. Others were like, well it is kind of early but this is how you do it. Isshin Ryu had a lot of guy full of ****. But the head guy was very open to showing you anything if you asked. You may not get what he told you though. To early.

edit, no boxing and wrestling had ****s too. Yeah, there were guys that would not talk to anyone they did not like. You might not even have done nothing , they just did not like anyone. Small clique guys. Maybe it is just personality ? I always had friends in all sorts of cliques. I was weird. I was a jock that hung out with stoners and loved the smart geeks. I had all sorts of friends. A main group but we were open. Anyone was good by us. We did not like bullies. If a guy did not want to fight, leave him alone.

[Wayfaring]

Sure, we talking a physical or mental thing here?



Well strategy is just that, strategy.
Its just an extension of the punches, defense and footwork.

I guess you could call that a secret, but that being the case, does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a "secret"
Where do you draw the line??
Physical or mental could be either with a good teacher. I remember at a conference getting a golf lesson on the swing analyzer. One physical detail - straighten my left leg earlier - decreased spin on the driver and improved distance by 20 yds. That was a secret to me before.

Boxing strategy has secrets. Floyds d for example nobody has figured it out so he must have secrets. At least from what I've seen people don't face him the first time and say I've seen all that before. Roger probably has training secrets he doesn't let out for Floyd. Even in an open environment like boxing

Anyway just kicking ideas around. This is a pretty good discussion.

[Wayfaring]

In the wing chun I have experienced there usually aren't secrets in terms of most students being taught fake rubbish with the real stuff being kept for the inner circle students. If there is then run away, it is a marketing scheme or something you will waste too much time and money on. Not worth it. I have a bit of experience in some other southern chinese MA that were a bit more like this than wing chun. After a while you realise it is a waste of time and that there are easier ways. I think wing chun is unusual in that the cultural component is quite small

Aha another reason for secrets. Film flam artistry where someone without real skills and knowledge fakes people into thinking they have it by secrets. This reason is certainly on the darker side of humanity.



Of course there are better and worse wing chun groups, teaching methods, training methodologies. There is proximity to the guy who is thinking up new stuff, and quality of understanding the original ideas. There is access to better fighters vs hobby people. There are elements of time spent and trust. In some cases financial or time commitments that need to be made. In some cases language and cultural commitments need to be made. All of these factors mean that there is a large variation in terms of the quality of teaching and learning that is available to any random person. Obviously quality varies massively.

As a beginning student that nobody knows, you are unlikely to get hold of any quality written or video material until you demonstrate a commitment. You are unlikely to get more than standard answers to technical questions you ask. As you spend more time and people get to know and trust you then of course this changes. I think this is the case for any skill or knowledge held by a small group of people. It is natural.

All distinct reasons for secrets some to do with quality others to do with time in an art and family.

[GlennR]

Physical or mental could be either with a good teacher.

True


I remember at a conference getting a golf lesson on the swing analyzer. One physical detail - straighten my left leg earlier - decreased spin on the driver and improved distance by 20 yds. That was a secret to me before.

Thats my point. It was a secret to you but im sure plenty of people may have picked up on that (im no Golf expert, so it is an assumption to be honest)
Once again, whats a secret as opposed to something the practitioner doesn't know but plenty of people do?


Boxing strategy has secrets. Floyds d for example nobody has figured it out so he must have secrets. At least from what I've seen people don't face him the first time and say I've seen all that before. Roger probably has training secrets he doesn't let out for Floyd. Even in an open environment like boxing


I think theres subtle things he does, but the rest is all there to see. Id add his ungodly reflexes and freakish reach doesnt hurt either ;)


Anyway just kicking ideas around. This is a pretty good discussion.

Very good discussion, best for ages

[Happy Tiger]

I've always felt Wing Chun relation to geometry is were certain secrets are hidden. Certain curiosities in our punching method are quite unique.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is only one secret in the MA:
Hard work and all that comes with that:
Blood, sweat, pain, bruises and broken bones.

That said, it was very normal for old school teachers to hold things back from some and only tell the WHOLE story to a selected few ( sometimes one).

[Happy Tiger]

There is only one secret in the MA:
Hard work and all that comes with that:
Blood, sweat, pain, bruises and broken bones.

That said, it was very normal for old school teachers to hold things back from some and only tell the WHOLE story to a selected few ( sometimes one).
I 150% agree with this for the practical realities of combat and common fitness but... There is a reason why the old guard in TCM often had a more...esoteric relationship with martial science. Though they obviously fought often, deathly real and all the chips in. This part is the heart of Kung Fu. This, if can be believed is where all the secrets lie.

[guy b.]

Another way in which physical skills like wing chun might be counted as secret: they are meaningless unless you can actually embody them. Information can be freely available but is as good as code unless you spend the time and effort to make it work for you and to become a part of you. Wing chun is quite a difficult thing to make work and not many people that I have met can actually do it. In this way it is 'known' by only a small number of people.

An interesting result related to that above is that different ways of making it work exist, based upon different understandings, making the results mutually exclusive and in a way unknowable to each other. Examples include WSL VT and Hawkins Cheung/Chu/Orr wing chun. Both of these appear to work in different ways, but the results of these interpretations are quite different and contradict each other.

This fosters an idea of otherness, reinforces group identity, and encourages secrecy. Someone who has internalised one understanding and made it work will certainly be unwilling and may be unable to understand a mutually exclusive approach. In this way such approaches can be secret, not understandable or even non-sensical to the adherents of the other approach.

[boxerbilly]

Another way in which physical skills like wing chun might be counted as secret: they are meaningless unless you can actually embody them. Information can be freely available but is as good as code unless you spend the time and effort to make it work for you and to become a part of you. Wing chun is quite a difficult thing to make work and not many people that I have met can actually do it. In this way it is 'known' by only a small number of people.

An interesting result related to that above is that different ways of making it work exist, based upon different understandings, making the results mutually exclusive and in a way unknowable to each other. Examples include WSL VT and Hawkins Cheung/Chu/Orr wing chun. Both of these appear to work in different ways, but the results of these interpretations are quite different and contradict each other.

This fosters an idea of otherness, reinforces group identity, and encourages secrecy. Someone who has internalised one understanding and made it work will certainly be unwilling and may be unable to understand a mutually exclusive approach. In this way such approaches can be secret, not understandable or even non-sensical to the adherents of the other approach.


That information will allow a student to see and understand where he is going. He may not choose to. But he understands what else is there, now. If he does not know it exists, he may bail and go elsewhere. Again, eventually it may not be shared and essentially lost in that line.

Some of the WC I see is completely foreign to me. Others I identify with very well. Alan Orr being one. Duncan Leung being another. James Sinclair as well. It may be because they explain application in ways I understand ? Of the 3, I felt the closest affinity to Leung's. But I have only seen limited material from any of the those.

Group identity is great but eventually it more than likely leads to stagnation. If you are unwilling to leave the group to find other ways or ideas. Even if it is just from another line of WC. They may have a better way for doing certain things that you are unaware of. As John said, it is a secret if you do not know. If people shared openly, then we would know. If it is something you want to understand better, well now you know it exists.

We no longer live in a time where these "secrets" are important to keep hidden. Most of us do not use martial arts often or ever. You will not be able to take more than a 10th of any system not created for ringcraft into an event. Death matches, LOL. I recommend not doing that if there is such a thing. You will eventually die. Always someone better. The last time I had trouble, was 15 or more years ago. I just said one day, I am done. A main issue causing all this stuff was ME ! I changed. No more problems.

Great thread.

[YouKnowWho]

does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a "secret"
Where do you draw the line??

I will say "secret" in the past is some information that you can't find in any books. Today, you may find your information online if you google hard enough. But there are still some information that you can't find online.

May be the grappling art has more secret than the striking art. IMO, a secret can be a method to

1. train certain skill,
2. set up certain technique,
3. execute certain technique,
4. counter certain technique.

1. Train certain skill - for example, there are 4 level of stretching.

1. 頂 (Ding) - top of head touch toes.
2. 扣 (Kou) - forehead touch toes.
3. 吻 (Wen) - mouth touch toes.
4. 佛 (Fo) - chin touch toes.

Some people may reach to the 1st or 2nd level and think they have reached to their limitation. When they get older and no longer be able to improve their stretching, they may find out the other 2 levels and wish they could know that when they were young.

2. Set up certain technique - for example, if you apply "hip throw", when you spin you body, your opponent can spin with you and drag you down. There is an angle that when you enter, you don't need to spin. Will you be able to find that information in books? May be not. If you Google hard enough, can you find it online? may be you can.

3. Execute certain technique - for example, If you can twist your opponent's spine or knee joint side way, you can take all his counters away. What kind of techniques can help you to achieve that? Can you find it in any book? Will you be able to Google it online?

4. Counter certain technique - for example, how to counter when your opponent drags your arm and runs in circle?

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FFP6AWvxEA

[Wayfaring]

Thats my point. It was a secret to you but im sure plenty of people may have picked up on that (im no Golf expert, so it is an assumption to be honest)
Once again, whats a secret as opposed to something the practitioner doesn't know but plenty of people do?

So the detail of this one is kind of interesting - I have played golf as a hobby since a child. Why did my mind single this out as a "secret" as opposed to good fundamental instruction? I asked myself that. In general the concept is known and taught - called "hitting into a solid left side". I had been taught that before, and actually was employing that fundamental in my swing.

I've taken lessons before, say at $50/hr that will provide instruction by a PGA teaching professional that focused on hitting into a solid left side.

This guy had a swing analyzer at a tech conference I was at, and was a PGA teaching professional plus he had worked with this company that developed the swing analyzer technical equipment. He gave me a free lesson I won at a drawing there. I got into hitting 20 - 30 balls off a tee while the computer was gathering certain info about my swing. When the numbers came up they have baseline numbers comparing what certain things should look like with a pro swing, like spin rate on the ball and other things. My numbers showed a higher spin rate than optimum.

A higher spin rate caused an effect on my golf game. Any shot hit with a clubface angle (hook or slice) would have the amount it was taken offline amplified. Plus, even a straight shot wasn't going as far as it could have with optimum spin. So I was spending energy I didn't need to be spending to obtain results that were sub-optimum. Off the tee I was more "all over the place", rather than controlled and hitting irons from the short grass into the greens.

So the pro because he was a PGA teaching pro plus he had some extra special ability to translate things IMO, looked closely at my swing and saw the increased spin was caused by how late I was getting to the solid left side in my swing, so there was a lot of hip vertical motion being imparted very close to impact with the ball. So he worked with me for about 30 minutes to get my forward hip energy stabilized onto a solid left side earlier in my downswing. This made the numbers line up more with optimal numbers.

So after 5+ years away from this lesson I guess this is why my brain categorizes it as a "secret" rather than a fundamental everyone knows that I just wasn't up to speed on. I still use that lesson to this day on every swing, and it reduces the energy I need to put into it, and gets a better result. If I put a money value on that lesson it would be at least 10x a normal one - $500.

Anyway now you know way more than you ever wanted to about the game of golf and I don't know what about this applies to wing chun and secrets but maybe you tell me what you guys think.

[Wayfaring]

Hi Guy,

Not in boxing and wrestling. ITF most guys were open. It really depended who you asked stuff to. Some guys were ****s. Others were like, well it is kind of early but this is how you do it. Isshin Ryu had a lot of guy full of ****. But the head guy was very open to showing you anything if you asked. You may not get what he told you though. To early.

edit, no boxing and wrestling had ****s too. Yeah, there were guys that would not talk to anyone they did not like. You might not even have done nothing , they just did not like anyone. Small clique guys. Maybe it is just personality ? I always had friends in all sorts of cliques. I was weird. I was a jock that hung out with stoners and loved the smart geeks. I had all sorts of friends. A main group but we were open. Anyone was good by us. We did not like bullies. If a guy did not want to fight, leave him alone.

You know I do have to agree with you on the boxing and wrestling side. They don't hide much there, they tend to express their arts as there are no secrets, just hard work.
Although in general I will say I've noticed an attitude about needing to prove your seriousness to the veterans around the gyms before they will even acknowledge your existence, so maybe functionally some of that is built in too.

However I will tell you from my personal experience on both the boxing and wrestling side, people teach their "game", which I think may amount to more or less of a secret. I mean if a certain entry works on wrestlers all the way up to Olympic level, and you drill it for a bit, and others aren't familiar with it, then maybe the way it actually works out practically is a bit different than they say openly, even if everybody may have been taught that entry at one point. Or another wrestler has a hard setup for a far side single-leg that is smooth as glass plus world class single leg defense and can teach it to someone. Or a 3rd wrestler's turning throw game destroyed everyone through nationals and he teaches it.

anyways a few more thoughts.

[-N-]

Anyway now you know way more than you ever wanted to about the game of golf and I don't know what about this applies to wing chun and secrets but maybe you tell me what you guys think.

Good post.

This has everything to do with kung fu and other secrets.

It's in the fundamentals and the ability to identify and correct specifically what is deficient.

Those things are "secrets" if the teacher can't communicate them, or if the student can't recognize them.

[Jimbo]

Boxing strategy has secrets. Floyds d for example nobody has figured it out so he must have secrets. At least from what I've seen people don't face him the first time and say I've seen all that before. Roger probably has training secrets he doesn't let out for Floyd. Even in an open environment like boxing

IMO, the secret to Floyd's success has more to do with his God-given natural talent and abilities than any particular secrets. As much as I dislike him, that's how I have to see it. He has his own unique style (as does every fighter, some more unique and effective than others), and the ability to pull it off. Roger Mayweather could probably teach a couple hundred other fighters Floyd's style, and even if someone talented could mimic it in appearance, they wouldn't necessarily be able to pull it off in the ring like Floyd can. Though I'm sure his camp had secrets they didn't want spilled to the other camp, like strategies, etc. But I think Floyd's real secret is his unique athletic talent. Even if his opponents knew exactly what he planned to do, the outcome would likely be the same.

Another fighter with unbelievable natural talent was Roy Jones Jr. During his peak years, he would outclass his opponents and leave them completely baffled. In his case, he did a lot of things technically 'wrong' according to many boxing analysts, but got away with it due to his incredible natural reflexes, athleticism, speed, etc. That helped him pull off the unexpected. Of course, his lack in some other areas eventually caught up with him as his body aged and his natural physical gifts started to 'betray' him and deteriorate.

There are always certain super-talented individuals in any system who can make things work in ways that are unique to themselves, that don't necessarily apply to others in the system.

[Happy Tiger]

On a more practical front, an important secret underexamined, is Wing Chen's shear breadth of application and understanding. Because of Wing Chuns Universal neutrality at rest. The potential of expression is truly wide. How many encourage this to its true potential?

[T.D.O]

Funnily a question i was just pondering. i remember my sifu asking some students to be indoor students of his (not me, i had only been training a short period with him) it never came to anything, i remember him saying it a good while later, that he never had time due to a career change and that it would happen in the future. It never did. Anyway, my teacher was always open and would answer any questions i had, some times he would say that comes a bit later on, but would tell me, not necessarily show me to an teaching extent though, due to trying to run before I could walk (step before i could stand would be better lol) but, that was in the beginning, as the years went by it changed. I was just thinking, what would they have learned that i wouldn't have? That's definitely a secret, since it never happened and my sifu passed away..

[boxerbilly]

Funnily a question i was just pondering. i remember my sifu asking some students to be indoor students of his (not me, i had only been training a short period with him) it never came to anything, i remember him saying it a good while later, that he never had time due to a career change and that it would happen in the future. It never did. Anyway, my teacher was always open and would answer any questions i had, some times he would say that comes a bit later on, but would tell me, not necessarily show me to an teaching extent though, due to trying to run before I could walk (step before i could stand would be better lol) but, that was in the beginning, as the years went by it changed. I was just thinking, what would they have learned that i wouldn't have? That's definitely a secret, since it never happened and my sifu passed away..

Who knows ? That is my point. In his line, whatever he knew and did not share, died with him. That is a shame. Sorry he has passed on.

[GlennR]

Anyway now you know way more than you ever wanted to about the game of golf and I don't know what about this applies to wing chun and secrets but maybe you tell me what you guys think.


Great post.
Just highlights that once you get the basics of a technique correct, its the finer details that further enhance the performance. Shame there isn't a "punch analyzer"!!!!

Currently at the gym we are working on power right now and, in particular, the cross.
Its amazing , with a bit of fine tuning just like your golf lesson, how much more power you can get out of someone in one solid session, even the more experienced guys.

So is it s secret?
No, i guess what ive bought to boxing from WC is an analytical mind and applied that to my approach to both boxing and boxing coaching. The guys in the gym say im somewhat fixated by structure! lol
Who would have thought cross-training would have worked!

I think we are so lucky to be martial artists at this stage in history, the access to other cultures, forums like this, videos (god there are some great videos out there) and so on ,mean we can dispose of the ideas of "secrets" and focus more on the actual outcomes of our training

[altbus1]

For me as a student I feel that there shouldn't be any secrets. Wing Chun was made to be simple and direct.
I agree that you can't teach someone to run before he can walk, but the principles may never change. I have no need for secret techniekes I just want my wing chun to work. As an example I would like to be able to dominate an opponent from the moment we make contact just by using principles and good footwork.
On the other hand, if someone has a secret to help me " bridge the gap" you are always welcome. :)

Thx

[anerlich]

Secrets are ultimately self defeating. IMO there are correlations between combat skills and cryptography.

Amateur cryptographers use "security through obscurity". On the assumption that hiding the algorithm they use will keep their data secure.

The strongest crypto algorithms are those that are published widely and the best codebreakers in the business encouraged to do their best to break them. If they hold up after the entire internet tries to crack them after a period of years, you can have a lot of confidence in them. If you know exactly how the algorithm works, but still can't decrypt any message encoded with it in any useful timescale without knowing the password/passphrase, that's STRONG encryption.

Arguably, Jiu Jitsu has continued to grow and evolve, unlike many TCMA's, because all the techniques are visible online and in competition. Someone may come up with a new technique with which they beat the competition for a while, but the competitors analyse what the winner is doing and work out ways to counter it. The winner then upgrades his technique by developing counters to those counters, and on and on, and everyone's game gets stronger and stronger. A secret technique which is only trained with trusted like minded peers is highly unlikely to be pressure tested to anywhere near the same degree.

Impressive technique is the jiu jitsu guy who says, "Let's roll, I'm going to submit you with an armbar on your right arm and you won't be able to stop me," or the wing chun guy that can say, I'm going to hit you here with this and then there with that," and you can't stop him. Not the guy who pulls some weird sh*t off during a surprise attack, but can't pull it off a second time on the same person.

To mangle an old saying, you do not rise to the level of your technique, you fall to the level of your training. The level of your training of those secret techniques is likely to be fairly low.

The need for or value of secret empty hand techniques in the age of guns, military drones, etc. is highly questionable. What's the worst possible thing that could happen if someone finds out about your super secret technique? Not much, I'll bet.

There's the "invisible jiu jitsu" sort of stuff, which applies to all arts, though that's not so much a secret as it is more the noticing of things that can only be felt and require some experience to appreciate.

Most of what I've seen presented as stylistic secrets aren't techniques per se. Rather they are ways of training, drills, etc. that if practised over a period of years might give you an edge in certain circumstances. Some are ways of practising that if spies saw me training it they might think, "no point spying on this guy, he's f***ing all the techniques up." And most of them could be stumbled across by a student with a moderately creative mindset who didn't accept everything they were told uncritically and was prepared to look for areas of intersections with other activities or disciplines.

There is some value to the strategic withholding of information in the teaching process. I wrote an article about this some time ago:

http://www.w1ng.com/secrets/#more-56