Knee on stomach position

[Ryu]

I am drilling knee on stomach with a few resisting partners, and grappling dummies (BOB opponent bag, etc)
I think it offers very good punching leverage for power, and is good for fast retreat since you don't have to fully commit to the ground either.
I am hooking my foot (of the same leg I'm kneeling on him) against his side to give me better "stick" to him. Anyone have any technical tips for knee on stomach? (Merry, Arch, Graf, etc.)
I seem to have a good base, a slight bend in my knee of the trailing leg, and good pressure.
However I don't feel that the knee on stomach is as sturdy as say mount or a pin (obviously) Anyone have any tips on how to make sure they stay down there while punching?

..... Uh...and which styles of kung fu are the best suited for groin kicks, etc. besides wing chun?

:)

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[BeiKongHui]

I use knee on diaphragm to make it tougher on the opponent and I keep the other leg out pretty straight as a buttress. If there is much bend in it the person on the bottom can hook an arm through and roll you over. You can grab the back of the head from the knee on diaphragm/stomach position and punch them with the other hand.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Water Dragon]

Get him on his side and play with knee on neck. Have the other leg pressed up against him so that his arm is between your legs.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[zen_celt]

I don't know much about knees on stomachs(although it has happened to me a time or two). I was wondering what sort of counter techs. I can use to get the guy off of me. Any suggestions?
-ZC

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

[Brad Souders]

Never push on the knee. This sets up and armbar. Two things i use 1. I reach up same side the foot is on and pull the knee off from there. 2. I turn away from them for a second then explode back into them shrimping hard to gain a guard or half guard :cool:

Tapped Out

[Merryprankster]

Ryu:

For a tighter knee on belly, try this:

1. Your foot is hooked in tight to his side. That's good. Now, instead of having your knee across his stomach near the hips, angle your shin so that it runs diagonally. Your foot should be hooked near his hip, as you were doing, but your knee should be near his lower ribs on the opposite side. This:
-Runs your shin along their diaphragm,
impairing breathing.

-Creates pressure along their entire
abdomen, keeping them from sitting up
effectively.

2. Grab your opponent's collar or the back of their neck with the hand nearest their head. Pull up by straightening out your back and "improving" your posture. This creates a great deal of pressure and makes you heavy. This reduces their ability to move, and puts more hurting on their breathing.

3. For gi grappling, grab their belt with your other hand and pull up. Think about trying to deadlift them THROUGH your knee. Without a gi, I personally like my hand on/near the far hip, so I can post or punch.

To get the position, play around with your partners. Play with different postures and see where you get the most pressure down. I find I have the most pressure when I have a straight back and my weight is over my hips.

Try this escape for knee on:

1. Take the hand that is closest to the foot hooked on your hip, and create enough space to work it between your body and that foot.

2. Bump to create a little space and shoot your arm under that leg. Grab your opponent's belt/gi pants/gi near their lower back. You want their ankle to be trapped in the crook of your elbow. Get a tight grip so that you can push their heel to their butt. You should be kind of on your side at the end of this.

3. Take your far arm, and go OVER the thigh of your partner. Grab their gi near the lower back or grab their belt. Without the gi, you could grab your own wrist. Pinch your elbows together TIGHT so he can't move his leg.

4. Go belly down with your legs extended. Accomplish this by swinging your nearside leg UNDER your body. Your opponent will already be off-balance if this is done properly. Don't let go of your grips. Complete the movement by "walking," your legs (which should still be extended) out, until you face the opponent. Maintaining your grips, come back to base. You now have the opportunity to pass to the side where you have his leg all scrunched up.

[Tigerstyle]

What's the general foot/leg positioning when you're doing the knee-on-stomach? Can both feet stay on the same side as your opponent, or do you normally have one foot on each side, kind of like you're beginning to stand up from a mounted position?

Thanks in advance.

Ryu, ALL kung fu styles are good at groin kicking :) .

[Jaguar Wong]

After some of the tips about Knee on Stomach that I read here, I actually pulled it off at one of our sparring sessions. The guy I was sparring with went for a takedown, but I twisted him around, and brought him down in a sidemount. Then I hooked one hand under his head, and pressed down on his hip with the other hand. Then I shifted my knee onto his stomach (solar plexus), and then pulled on his head as I straightened up. He had a look of confusion as I started firing the repeated left hands. I wasn't really hitting him, I just wanted to see if I had the stability to do it. Man I really like the Knee on Stomach now. :)

Thanks for the tips on escaping Merryprankster. I just gotta go back and re-read it slowly so I understand what you're saying ;)

Ryu, are you looking for quick snapping groin kicks, or full on, straight-leg-swinging, groin demolishing kicks? The first you'll find in many styles, but the big leg swinging kicks to the lower "gates" tend to be predominant in the Southern Styles. Might I suggest a more diverse selection of targets in the lower body? I would suggest using the different kicks to the knees (front - thrusting/stomping and sides - roundhouse and side kicks), thighs (inner and outer), hips, feet (foot stomps work well) and groin. that way when one target isn't available, go for another. One of these choice targets is always available when you're trying to protect another. :)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[Ryu]

Jaguar, Awesome! Glad it's working for you, bro.
:) Thanks for the KF tips too, I'm just looking for more snap kind of kicks I guess.

MerryPrankster, thank you for all the details!
That was a great post, and probably took some time to post. Thanks again! I love the diagonal shin tip the best.


Thanks for the great replies guys.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Jaguar Wong]

Ryu, I think you posted some of the stuff I was trying to remeber about the Knee on Stomach when I was going for it :)

As for the kicks. If you're using kicks found in Wing Chun already, then I'm assuming you have a Wing Chun contact, ne? If so, then just stick with that. Wing Chun has all the low level kicks you would need to complete a simple no nonsense fighting/defensive style. All you gotta do is practice how to throw the occasional takedown in there, without having to "switch modes".

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[Martial Joe]

Ryu...My sifu was showing me this.It is a part of wing chun.

I figured it wouldnt work very well if a wing chun guy with not any ground experience fights a guy with alot down there...

But I am becoming a grappler and hopefully my skill will be good...good enough to know what to do when the guy moves out of the position.

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I am Sharky's main man...

[Martial Joe]

BTW ty training it with wing chun punching...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[diego]

im just learning but they go into what they call groundwork what comes after the takedown..you should look into it from what i see they specialize in that range,A GOOD RANGE
in my set at the end buddys on his stomach and thiers this skipping sidekick manuevar to turn him on his back
and you side kick his face with r then rfoot steps down beside his left temple?ear?side of head:
you squat all wieght on your right so you can quick step with left to flee,and you smash a palm/claw to his face then you reach over with your left and press down on his head and right verticle fist to his groin'grab and rip up his centreline groin to neck while standing up and covering behind you,,ya they go off on groundwork,i'l check my vids see if i can find some tips;this is one of my focuses now to but i don't have a teacher just what i learnt and COMMEN SENSE
regards

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[Merryprankster]

I think you will have fun with knee on Ryu... one of my favorite controls. Glad you managed to pull it off Jaguar! I think that's grand. I remember the first few times I tried... I felt all wobbly.

It's really hard to describe that escape. You might want to think about doing it backwards:

1. Place your partner on his back. Have him stick his left leg out straight, and have him bend his right leg in, with his heel as close to his butt as possible. Have him put the outside part of his bent leg on the ground, keeping that heel to his butt. Don't worry if he has to turn a little to do it.

2. Now, YOU put your right arm under his leg, near the ankle. Reach deep under his body towards his lower back, until the crook of your elbow is pinning his ankle close to his body. Grab his belt with your right hand.

3. With your left arm, reach over top his bent leg, and grab his belt near the small of his back. Hug yourself to his leg tightly, keeping your elbows in.

4. Roll him up on top of you into knee-on. You might be able to see the escape more clearly.

Side note-- when doing this escape, ensure you have the ankle trapped before getting the position with the other arm. The ankle is key. The rest is kind of secondary.

To Tiger style:

The feet are on the same side of the opponent for a knee on belly. One is hooked on his body. The other is posted out at a comfortable, slightly bent position to combine stability, pressure, and mobility.

[Jaguar Wong]

OK, now I see what you're talking about. I haven't read the "reverse" description yet, I just finally caught on to the first description. Sounds like a cool little escape, with the possibility of some leg lock, or at least getting up without worrying about your opponent being able to easily keep you down.

I tried the Knee on Stomach last night on someone bigger than me, and even though I didn't have it right, I had him under control. We were working on some Chin Na, and one of the locks I did failed, but I was able to scrounge up side control, and then take the knee on stomach (rather quickly :)), but even though I had good position, he stopped my strikes pretty easily, though (He's got tree trunk arms, and he's quick, so he actually tied my arm up). I tried for a submission, but that's not something I've ever worked on before, so while going for an arm bar, he was able to pull me over, and get back to his feet. I'll have to work on that :)

The first time I got the Knee on Stomach to work, I outweighed the guy by close to 50lbs (that's 23kg for you Europeans :p), but it's nice to know that it works on guys a little larger than myself. I'm not sure how clean my technique is, though, because these guys don't really know what I'm going for when I get it.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[Tigerstyle]

That's what I was thinking, but when I read some of the posts here, I had trouble visualizing what I was reading. Thanks again for clearing that up.

BTW, I liked the "lifting through your knee" tip.

[Tigerstyle]

Sort of related to the "groin striking in the guard" thread...

I was sparring with a friend Saturday (actually more like, "I was being punched repeatedly in the head on Saturday...") and I took the fight to the floor (I was being easily outclassed in the punching range :mad: ). So we're on the ground and I try the knee on stomach position, but he pops me in the groin with an elbow. That got me thinking, "Am I doing it wrong?" and "Does that position expose the groin?"

Knee on stomach is new to me, so I was very possibly doing it wrong. Here's the setup: He was on his back, hands by his face and his elbows in some. I was on his right side, my right knee on his abdomen near his ribs (I tried to position it diagonally across his body like someone suggested earlier, but i'm not sure if I did.). My left leg was posted somewhat straight on my left side, most of my weight was on my right knee, and my left hand was behind his neck and lifting his head toards me. I was about to punch him with my right hand when he swung his right elbow up and hit me in the groin :confused: .(outclassed on the ground as well :mad: )

He didn't hit me hard, and I was wearing a cup, but I still don't want to risk that kind of exposure if possible. So here's my question after a long winded set up:

Does the Knee On Stomach position expose your groin to attack when done properly? Also, was I doing it properly in the first place?

Thanks

"No Pain - Good."
- neptunesfall

[Merryprankster]

Move your body further down closer to their hips.

I suspect that your left leg was out to the side, but your torso was too close to their head. This puts your groin in range. If you keep the same general stance, but move your whole body down closer to the hips, you'll increase the distance, making a shot almost impossible.

Don't forget to get an "erect" posture. This raises your groin, increasing the distance even more.

You can also block off the nut shot with your left hand.

Lastly, if somebody raises their arm to hit you in the groin, armbar it.

[Ryu]

Hi Tiger,
I'm sparring and drilling the knee on stomach a little these days, and I've noticed that even in light contact, when you throw punches down at the guy's face with both hands from knee on stomach, he tends to want to cover up and worry about escaping rather than trying to hit you back anywhere. The knee on stomach position is great for ground and pound, but it is (I believe) one of the hardest positions to keep and that people good with it are usually more advanced people.
Thought that's not always the case.
I'd agree with Merryprankster, but I'd also punch from that position with both hands raining down as soon as I got it.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Merryprankster]

True enough Ryu, thanks for reminding us all of that rather poigniant fact :)

[Tigerstyle]

Thanks for the input. Makes a lot of sense and gives me new stuff to try out next time I get "spanked" in the punching range :mad: .

Merryprankster,
Yes I was higher on his body than I probably should have been (I wanted to make it a bit harder for him to breathe so I could clear my head :) ). Moving closer to his hips sounds like a good suggestion to help avoid the chances of an elbow to the groin. I'll try that when I get a chance.

When you say an erect posture, I am assuming you mean body straight, but are you also saying to raise my body higher by not bending my right leg as much (more like a 90 degree angle in the leg as opposed to a "sitting on the heel" type bend)? If that is the case, I can see how it would increase the elbow-to-cup distance (and put a bit more weight on the opponent. Woo hoo!).

About both hands free:
Do you sacrifice much control of your opponent keeping both of your hands free (to drop bombs) rather than using one to help control (their head, hands, etc.)? The reason I ask is because I usually try to hold a strong position before I attack to minimize the success of an escape or counter attack.

One more question (for now):
What do you suggest for a good positioning of the posting leg (my left, in the previous example)? I had it slightly bent and out to the side (almost perpendicular to his body) in that exchange. I did that because he bucked pretty hard and I had trouble holding the position with a more bent leg. I also did not want to put that foot into his grabbing range.

Thanks again for all your help.

"No Pain - Good."
- neptunesfall

[Merryprankster]

Where you put your foot is correct.

You can strike with both hands, sure, but be prepared for the buck and move. If they roll away, jump on their back. There are some switch off drills that are too complicated to explain via words.

To find the right position;

Find a forgiving friend.

Go knee on.

secure your hand behind the head as you usually do.

Now, with your shin diagonally across, move your weight around and start asking your partner where they feel your weight being the heaviest. I think you will find it's with your hips forward and your back in a relatively "military position."

Yes, think of your knee on leg as a piece of bent angle iron; don't collapse the leg into him, get it in place, then hold it rigid so you're pulling him into a hard structure.

[Tigerstyle]

Once again, thank you for the response.

With my shin diagonally across his body, should my knee be closer to his centerline or closer to the opposite side of his body?

"No Pain - Good."
- neptunesfall

[fightfan]

Hey guys, excellent descriptions!
Id like to add my contribution too!
To practice maintaining knee on stomach is definately a must, but you should never commit to any one postion no matter how tight it is because theres always someone who can escape it.
For instance, a more experienced grappler would only have to grab the ankle thats on his stomach with both of his hands(like controlling a large snakes head), and explsively lock his arms out and hip escape to go to turtle, grab your thigh and sweep you; or spin his shoulders away from you and push your knee in between his legs and get you in the half guard .
You must also practice mobility, especially in a street fight. I like to put my knee on his stomach but have my toes still on the ground(like a paper cutter). A good place to control him is grabbing his ****hest leg over the knee and using your back muscles to pull it up. This will stop his hip escape and open a kneebar.
He will either stay there or try to escape facing you(bad mistake). Since youre practically standing up(toes on the ground) you have an option of kicking his face with your other leg, north and south position, or spinning around his body for knee on stomach on the other side.
Thanks everybody.