View Full Version : More Wing Chun in the ring
boxerbilly
01-30-2016, 10:06 AM
Okay I have no idea what or where he learned this from but is this not WC kicking? Or very similar ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcerBvftLHc
Jimbo
01-30-2016, 12:04 PM
Those types of kicks are common in TCMA and are found in MANY styles, not only Wing Chun. Virtually every TCMA style, northern and southern, I've ever seen, and certainly every one I've ever trained has contained those types of low "cross" kicks and low side/oblique side kicks.
I think the "cross" kick is also found in Savate.
boxerbilly
01-30-2016, 01:10 PM
Yes, in savate. In many many arts.
I could be wrong but I think sort of core kicks to WC.
Anyway, very impressive usage in that video.
Those types of kicks are common in TCMA and are found in MANY styles, not only Wing Chun. Virtually every TCMA style, northern and southern, I've ever seen, and certainly every one I've ever trained has contained those types of low "cross" kicks and low side/oblique side kicks.
I think the "cross" kick is also found in Savate.
Yes, basic TCMA kick. The Wing Chun one stomps more. The Praying Mantis one swings more. In the video, the kick was kind of half way in between WC and PM versions.
Funny how TCMA is criticized for not evolving, but this basic beginner kick is only now starting to catch on in MMA.
And now, some people are heading toward the "too deadly for the ring" point of view.
http://www.mmamania.com/2013/1/22/1536869/rampage-jackson-jon-jones-oblique-kick-illegal-banned-ufc-mma
This is beginner technique and first kick to learn in Praying Mantis.
My teacher told us about sparring with that kick when he was learning back in Hong Kong.
They would target the shins, and give each other huge contusions. They called it "building a house(for their opponent) as a sarcastic joke. Meaning that the lumps would rise up above the shin like a house.
He said that he would have to limp home after class while holding himself up with both hands along the walls of the bulidings on the way home.
If he landed a solid kick on the opponent, the other guy would always try to be tough and not show it.
But the trick was to follow with a circular footwork to see if the other guy had a hard time stepping.
Then you would know, and laugh at the other guy and finish him off.
When my teacher first started teaching in the US, a senior classmate of his sent two students to challenge him and test his qualification to teach.
When they attacked, he dropped one with a jat tui (cross kick, oblique kick).
That ended the fight, and one student carried the other one away.
Afterwards, he heard nothing more about being questioned to teach.
Anyway, very impressive usage in that video.
Kind of unsophisticated in usage though.
Shows up in this fight too.
http://youtu.be/dw5iL3mihEA
People often tend to throw it as a single technique without follow up.
That's as bad as standing there and throwing just one punch.
TCMA systems are systems because there is a whole science and strategy of how to use even just the cross kick. How to set it up, when to use it, how to avoid it, how to counter it, how to follow up, what combinations work good with it, how to integrate it into different kinds of footwork.
As well as Jones and others may do with the kick, they barely are using it past a beginner level.
boxerbilly
01-31-2016, 08:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTtHyEolPjc
boxerbilly
01-31-2016, 08:06 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri2GbHTlgAE
boxerbilly
01-31-2016, 08:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF4H6EiwNXk
Kellen Bassette
01-31-2016, 12:40 PM
Yes, basic TCMA kick. The Wing Chun one stomps more. The Praying Mantis one swings more. In the video, the kick was kind of half way in between WC and PM versions.
Funny how TCMA is criticized for not evolving, but this basic beginner kick is only now starting to catch on in MMA.
And now, some people are heading toward the "too deadly for the ring" point of view.
http://www.mmamania.com/2013/1/22/1536869/rampage-jackson-jon-jones-oblique-kick-illegal-banned-ufc-mma
This is beginner technique and first kick to learn in Praying Mantis.
Funny that some want it banned now...I clearly remember when we were told these kind of kicks don't work. The techniques of Kung Fu are evolved, MMA is catching up to TCMA in that regard, it's the training methods of Kung Fu that need evolving.
The guys in the last three videos really like the lift and stamp version.
One thing is that they are kicking from fairly close in and stationary.
Didn't care for the way the Mantis guy held back his kicking hip. Loses a lot of range and power that way. And the kick becomes an isolated leg muscle kick, rather than a relaxed fast full body force type kick. Makes any followup hand techniques disjointed, slower, and weaker.
The low swing version is faster, less visible, and more mobile from range, and combines better with closing running footwork.
Done right, it is a type of "no shadow" kick, and you can throw several while running down your opponent. No problem with it being easy to avoid.
We do the stamping one as well. Shin is still a faster target than knee. Scrape all the way down the shin while stepping in hard. You can use hook punches at the same time.
Shin kick combines well with low calf sweep and highline hand attacks while overrunning the other guy.
To make the low shin kick harder to escape, use it to the lead leg as the person steps down.
You can do this when he moves in to attack, or you can maneuver to make him step.
You can hide the kick with an eye attack.
If he has good footwork and pulls his leg back to avoid, turn your shin kick into a deep step and continue closing in. One easy followup is low calf kick/sweep with the other leg.
Either kick done right can set the guy down on his @ss. Then kick him in the head.
Jimbo
01-31-2016, 03:32 PM
The first time I ever felt a cross kick was when sparring a senior classmate at the first Mantic school I trained at in Taipei. The guy was bigger than me and a bit overweight, but he was strong and explosively fast. As soon as we began sparring, he slammed my shin with his kick (it was a 'swinging up' version). Without missing a beat, he continued moving in and slammed me to the mat. Same thing happened a second time, right in the same spot on my shin. He had a lot of mass and momentum behind his kick. Very soon, my right shin area swelled up really badly; now I kinda wonder if my shin had a hairline fracture or something. I remember it took a good while to heal.
He set up the kick (he kicked with right foot) by striking/grabbing with his left arm/hand simultaneously. Before CMA, I'd never had any experience with the cross kick. That experience taught some of the value and potential of the cross kick a lot better than a hundred tutorials.
wckf92
01-31-2016, 04:11 PM
The Duncan Leung guys train this kick quite a bit. Seems to be a forte of theirs...especially when combined with some of the things -N- was posting about.
He set up the kick (he kicked with right foot) by striking/grabbing with his left arm/hand simultaneously. Before CMA, I'd never had any experience with the cross kick. That experience taught some of the value and potential of the cross kick a lot better than a hundred tutorials.
Nice. Classic setup.
And if someone tries to kick you with their lead leg, you can grab his lead arm, pull down to stuff the kick by making him step back down, then slam in the cross kick on his lead leg.
My teacher showed us the marks that he still had on his shins from sparring many years previously.
boxerbilly
01-31-2016, 04:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K9aiJvFsZ8
boxerbilly
01-31-2016, 04:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emh-NH8VGvQ
Firehawk4
01-31-2016, 08:36 PM
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&q=kung+fu+low+kicks
Mantis cross kick comes from Chuo Jiao.
Here's how TCMA does it.
http://youtu.be/vEj_LPRS_KI
More Chuo Jiao kicking.
http://youtu.be/5owMrUXaXzs
You can see how cross kick and step can be the same.
I make students run and throw multiple cross kicks at the same time.
When training kids, I put on shin pads and make them kick me full force like the kids in the second video.
Trains them to have good penetration on the kick against a person, and it makes my shins tough.
Very nice series of cross kicks hidden in the footwork and integrated with strikes from 1:00 - 1:07.
http://youtu.be/Mk4STjJiSww
That is how we do it. In sparring, the opponent will be tripping and falling if you overtake him take way.
Different from how the MMA guys that stand there and throw slow single big power stomps.
The techniques of Kung Fu are evolved, MMA is catching up to TCMA in that regard, it's the training methods of Kung Fu that need evolving.
Maybe for watered down McKwoon compromise kung fu :)
Lol @Bruce Lee who turned his back on TCMA and had to find his cross kick from Savate :rolleyes:
boxerbilly
02-01-2016, 06:47 AM
N, Thanks for those vids. Terrific stuff.
Bruce Lee had those kicks from WC. He adopted Savate methods for longer range. Perhaps he also preferred their delivery and recovery methods ? I don't know. He did not abandon WC.
Correction. I personally believe he did not abandon WC. Others may believe he did so.
Jimbo
02-01-2016, 08:46 AM
The low cross kick, and the other hidden low kicks during walking or running steps is, IMO, one of the great characteristics of many northern styles. When most people discuss "northern leg" or "northern kicks", they generally seem to be talking about the high kicks like tornado kicks, jump front slap kicks, spinning outside crescent kicks, and low spinning leg sweeps in forms. When I think of northern kicks, I think of the low leg kicks used with hands during aggressive walking/running footwork. It's one of those things I've kept for myself from my years of having trained Mantis and Chang Quan (Long Fist).
CLF also makes use of the cross kick. Quite often in conjunction with a simultaneous grab and pull with one hand and a strike with the other hand. But since CLF is a combination of 'southern hands' and 'northern feet' (northern footwork as well as kicks), much of the low, aggressive hidden kicking is easily incorporated into its attacking footwork.
The low cross kick, and the other hidden low kicks during walking or running steps is, IMO, one of the great characteristics of many northern styles. When most people discuss "northern leg" or "northern kicks", they generally seem to be talking about the high kicks like tornado kicks, jump front slap kicks, spinning outside crescent kicks, and low spinning leg sweeps in forms. When I think of northern kicks, I think of the low leg kicks used with hands during aggressive walking/running footwork.
Spot on.
Here's a clip of cross kick as part of a combination attack.
Green shirt - grab, 1-2 punch, cross kick.
White shirt runs and parries, so the punches don't land. Cross kick lands.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/download-4.gif
boxerbilly
02-01-2016, 10:15 AM
The low cross kick, and the other hidden low kicks during walking or running steps is, IMO, one of the great characteristics of many northern styles. When most people discuss "northern leg" or "northern kicks", they generally seem to be talking about the high kicks like tornado kicks, jump front slap kicks, spinning outside crescent kicks, and low spinning leg sweeps in forms. When I think of northern kicks, I think of the low leg kicks used with hands during aggressive walking/running footwork. It's one of those things I've kept for myself from my years of having trained Mantis and Chang Quan (Long Fist).
CLF also makes use of the cross kick. Quite often in conjunction with a simultaneous grab and pull with one hand and a strike with the other hand. But since CLF is a combination of 'southern hands' and 'northern feet' (northern footwork as well as kicks), much of the low, aggressive hidden kicking is easily incorporated into its attacking footwork.
"Choy Li Fut is the most effective system that I've seen for fighting more than one person. [It] is one of the most difficult styles to attack and defend against. Choy Li Fut is the only style [of kung fu] that traveled to Thailand to fight the Thai boxers and hadn't lost." –Bruce Lee
Source- Bruce Lee- Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do by Jesse Glover
boxerbilly
02-01-2016, 10:28 AM
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&q=kung+fu+low+kicks
The problem for this block in the ring is a thai kick is going to blast right through it. Odds are you get spun or he takes the support leg. That's my opinion. Others may believe different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bogDwoyImBU
Jimbo
02-02-2016, 05:22 PM
This thread would probably have been better placed in the General forum, in spite of the title, since it's become more of a general Kung Fu discussion not specific to WC.
We're just waiting for the WC people to reply :)
boxerbilly
02-03-2016, 06:42 AM
This thread would probably have been better placed in the General forum, in spite of the title, since it's become more of a general Kung Fu discussion not specific to WC.
This forum was dead so I thought Ill make a post. Believe it to be relevant to WC. I do not see a problem with comparing similar kicks and tactics from others systems. If Gene feels it should be moved into a more open forum, I have no issues with that. Glad it did as well as it has.
Frost
02-03-2016, 07:36 AM
We're just waiting for the WC people to reply :)
Reply to what, there's not a single clip of any Chinese art working in the ring on this thread, wing chun included lol so maybe the title needs changing ?
boxerbilly
02-03-2016, 08:36 AM
Reply to what, there's not a single clip of any Chinese art working in the ring on this thread, wing chun included lol so maybe the title needs changing ?
Technically you are correct but these kicks are in WC. What happens when you take Shotokan into the ring? You get killed. UNLESS you modify the heck out of it and combine it with what does work there. So then it is just okay, I can make this WC idea or technique work in a sport. Truthfully, the guy in the first vid could have learned this in any thai boxing gym. They have teep like side kicks. Probably have an oblique kick depending on who you go to and where the source originally came from. Old thai styles that may have kept that kick.
Is WC not about modifying to make it work ? It is a principal based art. I think people become slaves to must be done this way or it is not WC. Yet, pretty sure old time WC guys adapted and adopted to make sure they win and did not worry if there tan sao was a little off while using it for real. Relied more on that back up hand. But today in the world of you are probably never going to use any of this out of the training hall. Well, you got time and no real pressure to make your WC picture perfect. Same for most traditional arts. You can get all theoretical. Go kenpo analysis paralysis crazy.
Frost
02-03-2016, 08:42 AM
Technically you are correct but these kicks are in WC. What happens when you take Shotokan into the ring? You get killed. UNLESS you modify the heck out of it and combine it with what does work there. So then it is just okay, I can make this WC idea or technique work in a sport. Truthfully, the guy in the first vid could have learned this in any thai boxing gym. They have teep like side kicks. Probably have an oblique kick depending on who you go to and where the source originally came from. Old thai styles that may have kept that kick.
Is WC not about modifying to make it work ? It is a principal based art. I think people become slaves to must be done this way or it is not WC. Yet, pretty sure old time WC guys adapted and adopted to make sure they win and did not worry if there tan sao was a little off while using it for real. Relied more on that back up hand. But today in the world of you are probably never going to use any of this out of the training hall. Well, you got time and no real pressure to make your WC picture perfect. Same for most traditional arts. You can get all theoretical. Go kenpo analysis paralysis crazy.
Technically those kicks are in Morris dancing, however morris dancing won't work in the cage because the training methods are suited for fighting, the question isn't does wing chun have these kicks, the question is why is no wing chun guy doing those kicks in MMA, why do we have to post a clip of a fighter who has zero experience in wing chun to show its kicks can work....
boxerbilly
02-03-2016, 08:47 AM
Technically those kicks are in Morris dancing, however morris dancing won't work in the cage because the training methods are suited for fighting, the question isn't does wing chun have these kicks, the question is why is no wing chun guy doing those kicks in MMA, why do we have to post a clip of a fighter who has zero experience in wing chun to show its kicks can work....
Oh, for no other reason than, I wanted to post WC style kicks being used successfully inside the ring. And then, I liked how the tread evolved. Becoming more of, this type kicks can be found here and there and training and applications share, etc. Glad you liked it.
boxerbilly
02-03-2016, 08:49 AM
Perhaps you would be more approving if I had titles the thread," Look Mom, No hands- WC type kicks being used successfully in the ring. "
Reply to what, there's not a single clip of any Chinese art working in the ring on this thread, wing chun included lol so maybe the title needs changing ?
Sure.
Thread is more about "this technique can be used in the ring".
Lots of systems have the same punches, kicks, and throws.
Truthfully, the guy in the first vid could have learned this in any thai boxing gym.
At this gym, apparently.
While "Bones" is singled out, the technique is not uncommon at the Jackson-Winklejohn camp in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where Jones trains. Carlos Condit has also employed the oblique kick, most notably in his knockout win over Dan Hardy at UFC 120 across the pond.
mun hung
02-10-2016, 08:31 PM
The Duncan Leung guys train this kick quite a bit. Seems to be a forte of theirs...especially when combined with some of the things -N- was posting about.
Yup. It's called So Gerk and Chai Gerk. He's not doing it perfectly, but he has the right idea.
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