Keep For Future Reference: The R.W. Smith Collection

[mickey]

Greetings,

It seems that the footage described at the end of "Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods" is either missing or has yet to be catalogued.

http://archon.library.tamu.edu/?p=collections/findingaid&id=1137&q=&rootcontentid=35041


mickey

[Jimbo]

Hi, mickey.

Back in the 90s, I correspnded with R.W. Smith through snail mail, asking him whether he would ever consider releasing some of those old films he took in Taiwan for the historical significance. He wrote back that he would not; that the various MA magazines (he mentioned IKF by name) would not appreciate them or even know what real KF was. I specifically asked about his footage of Wang Sung-Ting, who he filmed performing Mantis and Zui Ba Xian (8 Drunken Immortals). He said that if I was ever in his area (can't recall now if it was in Virginia or Maryland), I was free to drop in and he would show me his films, but that was it. So I forgot about it.

A few years later, out of the blue he wrote me back that he would send me a videotaped copy of the Wang Sung-Ting footage if I still wanted it. It was either me or another guy, and I got first dibs. The only condition was that I give my word to never copy or send it to anybody else. I agreed, and got the tape (if I remember correctly, I only paid cost of shipping). The footage was originally from old film (Super 8?), so the picture was in fast-motion. Very brief, only about a couple minutes of footage, but great to have the opportunity to see. Wang Sung-Ting died in 1964, a few years after the film was shot, and he had taught my first Mantis teacher in Taiwan.

I don't often mention this if ever, because I had sworn not to copy the footage for others. Even though R.W. Smith is already dead, I feel I must still keep my word that I gave him, even if that might sound outdated to some.

[robertdreeben]

It's great to see anything about Robert W Smith mentioned on this forum. His work, especially his last book "Martial Musings" is a treasure all young martial artists should read. One could easily make a movie about his life and travels which span the history of martial arts in the twenty first century!

Even Bruce Lee literally copied techniques to put in his "Tao of Jeet Kune Do", from Bob Smith's Book "Secret Fighting Arts of the World" which he penned under the pseudonym John F Gilby. All his books are a fun read filled with wisdom of the ages.

On one fortuitous night in the early 2000's William and Pricilla Chen invited and my wife and I to their studio in Manhattan to meet Bob Smith and sit for a viewing of all his archival footage he shot over the years in Taiwan, while he narrated and shared anecdotes of the different clips. It was a magical evening to say the least. One clip he showed that was extra special was of my Grand master Chang Dung Sheng when he was young, performing a Shaolin form with ease and power.

As a kid I had read all of Robert W Smith's books along with his friend and colleague Donn F Drager's books...these guys were my heroes. Meeting him was a dream come true as his writing style greatly influenced my martial arts writing. Ultimately from that meeting I was able to interview him and do an article and correspond with him from time to time. I remember he told me "Hard writing makes for easy reading". And sadly, I also wrote his eulogy stories in the late IKF and for Gene here in KFM. One of Bob's favorite old Chinese sayings is now mine....if only I have the sense to follow it all the time: "Buy the best and cry once!"

[mickey]

Greetings,

Jimbo, I appreciate how you have kept your word. I do understand that. I know of someone who has footage of a Master performing all five hand sets of Chen Tai Chi Chuan who made a similar promise and has kept his word. Though someone else has posted up segments from that footage up on U tube, it is not enough to cause the person to break his word.

R.W. Smith had a sizeable cache of unidentified master performances. The real concern when it comes to the missing footage is not the lack of public interest. It is the number of people who are able to identify the individuals performing and the forms they are doing are dying out.

Years before U Tube came into being I purchased a video thinking that it would feature Chinese West Coast martial arts Masters, only to find that it was a Taiwan demonstration tape from George Mattson Sensei. What a surprise and a treat!!


mickey

[B.Tunks]

The footage was originally from old film (Super 8?), so the picture was in fast-motion. Very brief, only about a couple minutes of footage, but great to have the opportunity to see. Wang Sung-Ting died in 1964, a few years after the film was shot, and he had taught my first Mantis teacher in Taiwan.

Was WST performing Lanjie/luanjie?

Cheers,

BT

[Jimbo]

Was WST performing Lanjie/luanjie?

Cheers,

BT

I believe it was either Mei Hua Shou or Mei Hua Lu. I had a friend in the school who specialized in one of those sets, and the sequence looked similar, but I never learned it. The form wasn't named in the film, and it has no sound. It's been years since I watched the tape; someday soon I plan to get the VHS transferred to DVD. My VHS player crapped out a loooong time ago.

[B.Tunks]

Thanks Jimbo. Was he wearing a black jacket/long sleeved shirt by any chance? Reason I ask is I may have seen part of it many years ago but it was never confirmed. Unlikely to be same footage though, as it didn't look like meihua lu (unless there was another part that included opening of lanjie)...

[Jimbo]

Thanks Jimbo. Was he wearing a black jacket/long sleeved shirt by any chance? Reason I ask is I may have seen part of it many years ago but it was never confirmed. Unlikely to be same footage though, as it didn't look like meihua lu (unless there was another part that included opening of lanjie)...

Hi, B.Tunks:

It's been years since I've watched it (watched it a couple times), but as I recall, he was wearing an old-style long-sleeved jacket like an old northerner would have worn. I don't think it was a 'frog-button' Kung Fu-style jacket/uniform. I'm not sure if his jacket was black or gray or even blue, as the film is in black and white. I don't think it was black.

I don't recall any of Lan Jie being performed. As I mentioned, one day soon I'll try to get it put onto DVD and check it out for sure. Wang looked to me to be a relatively 'big' northerner. I recognized the brief portion of Zui Ba Xian, because a short, skinny guy I knew in the school specialized in that set, and was the only one in the school who could do it. In the film, WST did not do the difficult, athletic parts like handsprings, etc. But it was very brief.

My first Mantis teacher (Gao) gave the impression that his teacher WST was very powerful but also very mean, with a bad temper; and that his temper had to do with his death (i.e., health-wise).

[B.Tunks]

Hi, B.Tunks:

It's been years since I've watched it (watched it a couple times), but as I recall, he was wearing an old-style long-sleeved jacket like an old northerner would have worn. I don't think it was a 'frog-button' Kung Fu-style jacket/uniform. I'm not sure if his jacket was black or gray or even blue, as the film is in black and white. I don't think it was black.

I don't recall any of Lan Jie being performed. As I mentioned, one day soon I'll try to get it put onto DVD and check it out for sure. Wang looked to me to be a relatively 'big' northerner. I recognized the brief portion of Zui Ba Xian, because a short, skinny guy I knew in the school specialized in that set, and was the only one in the school who could do it. In the film, WST did not do the difficult, athletic parts like handsprings, etc. But it was very brief.

My first Mantis teacher (Gao) gave the impression that his teacher WST was very powerful but also very mean, with a bad temper; and that his temper had to do with his death (i.e., health-wise).

Cool. Don't forget when you transfer it to DVD to accidentally mail it to Australia ;)

I met old masters in Qingdao who apparently knew him from the Guoshuguan. He had a solid reputation and learned from some of the greats. Probably better known as a gangster though.

BT

[mickey]

Greetings,

B.Tunks,

When a Japanese person gives his word, it is a very serious thing. And Jimbo gave his word.

I have been thinking about where the film footage may have gone. The only person I could think of who had good connections with R.W.Smith is Allen Pittman. You may want to check with him. He may be able to direct or assist you to the whereabouts of the films.


mickey

[B.Tunks]

Greetings,

B.Tunks,

When a Japanese person gives his word, it is a very serious thing. And Jimbo gave his word.

I have been thinking about where the film footage may have gone. The only person I could think of who had good connections with R.W.Smith is Allen Pittman. You may want to check with him. He may be able to direct or assist you to the whereabouts of the films.


mickey

No worries. Thanks for tip, though I wont hassle him. In fact I cant stand hungry people like that myself (chasing quan pu, footage, forms, masters etc). If I saw it I would be happy but can live without.

Main reason I asked because I was shown old Taiwanese B&W footage that some sneaky rodent had secretly filmed with video camera during a private screen projection, ha ha...

Cheers,

BT

[Tainan Mantis]

Was WST performing Lanjie/luanjie?

Cheers,

BT
Yes. It is positively Luanjie. It is not the one that can be seen done by Gao Daosheng's students either.
Keeps his shoulders hunched over and has a style of movement not unlike Gao Daosheng's in terms of performance cadence and speed. No stops for posing or showing a posture. Just a rocket from start to finish.

Not sure about the jacket.

[Jimbo]

No worries. Thanks for tip, though I wont hassle him. In fact I cant stand hungry people like that myself (chasing quan pu, footage, forms, masters etc). If I saw it I would be happy but can live without.

Main reason I asked because I was shown old Taiwanese B&W footage that some sneaky rodent had secretly filmed with video camera during a private screen projection, ha ha...

Cheers,

BT

Hi, B.Tunks.

Thanks for understanding. In fact, that's why I believe this is the first time I've ever mentioned the footage to anybody. Didn't seem fair to mention it then say I can't send it to anyone. But I felt it was relevant to this thread.

mickey:

Thanks for mentioning that. I will say that keeping my word has less to do with my being Japanese than it does about my own way of doing things. One of my big pet peeves is people who give their word and don't keep it. There's too much of that in this world already, including the MA world. I don't give my word on anything lightly nor very often, so when I do, I intend to keep it.

Tainan Mantis:

As I mentioned, it's been maybe 16 years since I last watched the footage, which was a total of about twice. So I'm sure you're correct. However, what I do remember is either Mei Hua Shou (or Lu), along with a bit of the Zui Ba Xian. Clothing-wise, I'm relying strictly on memory which, regarding the tape, admittedly may be cloudy with time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I prefered Draeger to Smith in both writing style and being able to describe in words what one can only understand by seeing.
But that's just me.
Draeger's work on JMA is just far and above anything else ever done. ( Classical Bujutsu, Classical Budo, Modern Budo and bujutsu).
Smith's Martial Musings was a pretty good read but, to be honest, there were times he was a bit too much of a TCMA "nut-rider".

[Jimbo]

I prefered Draeger to Smith in both writing style and being able to describe in words what one can only understand by seeing.
But that's just me.
Draeger's work on JMA is just far and above anything else ever done. ( Classical Bujutsu, Classical Budo, Modern Budo and bujutsu).
Smith's Martial Musings was a pretty good read but, to be honest, there were times he was a bit too much of a TCMA "nut-rider".

There were aspects of Smith's writings that I disagreed with, or sometimes found self-contradictory.

For example:

1) He criticized CMA systems that he felt were 'non-functional', yet in his Martial Musings, he criticized UFC fighting as not very good and glorifying violence (if I recall correctly). Meaning, he seemed unimpressed with systems he deemed 'dance-like' and void of combative function, but was also highly critical of MAs and MAists that emphasized the application of fighting aspects if they didn't fit his liking, and felt they only appealed to audiences' baser instincts.

2). He seemed to view southern CMA systems (except for maybe Fujian-style White Crane systems and Liao Wu-Chang's Monkey) as 'rudimentary' and inferior to northern styles, especially the 'internal' systems of Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua.

3). He included translations of fanciful tales of the fighting and feats of famous internal masters as if they were to be taken as fact, and proof of the 'internal' systems' superiority over 'Shaolin' systems.

There are other things as well, but you get the point. That said, he had been in the arts before I was ever born, so he had the right to have his opinion, and I still respect him, even though, IMO, he was completely wrong about some things. I don't have to totally agree with a person to respect his/her opinions.

As for Draeger, I agree that his JMA writings were in a class of their own. But I found R.W. Smith to be one of the most entertaining/readable MA authors ever, with his unique writing style. In comparison, most MA books are very dry reading. IMO, one of Smith's best books is the long out-of-print Western Boxing and World Wrestling, written under the pseudonym John F. Gilbey.

[lkfmdc]

I know a lot of people were first exposed to stuff via Smith, he was a "pioneer" etc etc and you aren't supposed to speak ill of the dead....

But, assuming you have footage of people who are very important figures, where there is almost no footage of them, do you keep them secret, let them rot and keep anyone from ever seeing them? What purpose does that actually serve???

Smith was a spiteful *******... he was kicked out of Chang Dung Seng's school and spent his entire career bad mouthing Shuai Jiao, even things he patently knew were not true.

The whole "martial arts isn't about violence" crap is not only HIS OPINION, it is not in any way supported by history, fact or even his experience. He was hanging around with active and former military men, gangsters and fighters.... he was a hippie at heart which is fine, but don't confuse your personal preferances for fact

[B.Tunks]

Yes. It is positively Luanjie. It is not the one that can be seen done by Gao Daosheng's students either.
Keeps his shoulders hunched over and has a style of movement not unlike Gao Daosheng's in terms of performance cadence and speed. No stops for posing or showing a posture. Just a rocket from start to finish.

Not sure about the jacket.

Ah nice one KB! I'm pretty certain that's exactly what I saw. I wasn't told it was WST at the time though but he was certainly the only one from that era in Taiwan who it could have been. Apparently there is more footage of him in private collections in Japan.

BT

[Tainan Mantis]

Ah nice one KB! I'm pretty certain that's exactly what I saw. I wasn't told it was WST at the time though but he was certainly the only one from that era in Taiwan who it could have been. Apparently there is more footage of him in private collections in Japan.

BT

I have seen the Gao Daosheng footage in Japan. Don't know about Wang Songting though.
Just before he passed away his students filmed him doing all his forms. That footage is no lost. Though someone may be hiding it.

Of Smith's footage that I have seen the most valuable (to me) was of Wei Shaotang (The starter of the Eight Step Mantis) performing his basic exercises as well as including the two man forms "Lipi" and "Pai An" . There is also Wei Shaotang doing some Zhai Yao in the footage. Wei's student who is transmitting to the next generation asked me if I knew of any more footage of Wei, to which I said no.

Mike Martello originally made all the footage of Wei (originally from Smith's collection) available free to all on a website about 14 years ago. Though I don't know what happened to that site after Mike Martello passed away.

Wang Songting is interesting as a character who lived a pretty hardcore life and retired in Taiwan after the war. It is a shame that the footage of him is not public as it would help people differentiate between the Showy Mantis that has gained traction, versus how the old timers way of training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There were aspects of Smith's writings that I disagreed with, or sometimes found self-contradictory.

For example:

1) He criticized CMA systems that he felt were 'non-functional', yet in his Martial Musings, he criticized UFC fighting as not very good and glorifying violence (if I recall correctly). Meaning, he seemed unimpressed with systems he deemed 'dance-like' and void of combative function, but was also highly critical of MAs and MAists that emphasized the application of fighting aspects if they didn't fit his liking, and felt they only appealed to audiences' baser instincts.

2). He seemed to view southern CMA systems (except for maybe Fujian-style White Crane systems and Liao Wu-Chang's Monkey) as 'rudimentary' and inferior to northern styles, especially the 'internal' systems of Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua.

3). He included translations of fanciful tales of the fighting and feats of famous internal masters as if they were to be taken as fact, and proof of the 'internal' systems' superiority over 'Shaolin' systems.

There are other things as well, but you get the point. That said, he had been in the arts before I was ever born, so he had the right to have his opinion, and I still respect him, even though, IMO, he was completely wrong about some things. I don't have to totally agree with a person to respect his/her opinions.

As for Draeger, I agree that his JMA writings were in a class of their own. But I found R.W. Smith to be one of the most entertaining/readable MA authors ever, with his unique writing style. In comparison, most MA books are very dry reading. IMO, one of Smith's best books is the long out-of-print Western Boxing and World Wrestling, written under the pseudonym John F. Gilbey.

Agreed on all points.
I have heard of that "northern superiority" before, Bawang has it, LOL !
I disagree of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know a lot of people were first exposed to stuff via Smith, he was a "pioneer" etc etc and you aren't supposed to speak ill of the dead....

But, assuming you have footage of people who are very important figures, where there is almost no footage of them, do you keep them secret, let them rot and keep anyone from ever seeing them? What purpose does that actually serve???

Smith was a spiteful *******... he was kicked out of Chang Dung Seng's school and spent his entire career bad mouthing Shuai Jiao, even things he patently knew were not true.

The whole "martial arts isn't about violence" crap is not only HIS OPINION, it is not in any way supported by history, fact or even his experience. He was hanging around with active and former military men, gangsters and fighters.... he was a hippie at heart which is fine, but don't confuse your personal preferances for fact

Yes, I recall him writing that Shuai Jiao was very inferior to Judo.

[Jimbo]

Here is some film of Zhang Junfeng (in Wage-Giles spelling: Chang Chun-feng), one of Hung I-hsiang's main teachers whom R.W. Smith mentioned in his books. He is teaching Xingyi. This film was reportedly shot in 1957 at Zhongshan Park in Taipei. I don't know if Smith shot it or not, as I thought he was in Taiwan from 1959-62.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVVDHU3Nyxw&sns=em

[B.Tunks]

I have seen the Gao Daosheng footage in Japan. Don't know about Wang Songting though.
Just before he passed away his students filmed him doing all his forms. That footage is no lost. Though someone may be hiding it.

Of Smith's footage that I have seen the most valuable (to me) was of Wei Shaotang (The starter of the Eight Step Mantis) performing his basic exercises as well as including the two man forms "Lipi" and "Pai An" . There is also Wei Shaotang doing some Zhai Yao in the footage. Wei's student who is transmitting to the next generation asked me if I knew of any more footage of Wei, to which I said no.

Mike Martello originally made all the footage of Wei (originally from Smith's collection) available free to all on a website about 14 years ago. Though I don't know what happened to that site after Mike Martello passed away.

Wang Songting is interesting as a character who lived a pretty hardcore life and retired in Taiwan after the war. It is a shame that the footage of him is not public as it would help people differentiate between the Showy Mantis that has gained traction, versus how the old timers way of training.


I've got all of that Wei Xiaotang footage. If I ever knew it was filmed by R.Smith, I long forgot. I also have footage of him doing jian duilian - one filmed inside and one outside, if memory serves me correctly.

The footage of Wang Songting taken by his students may be the same I mentioned.

BT

[Jimbo]

I don't know if Smith shot this footage or not, but it's from the same timeline that he was in Taiwan. The only individual I can recognize on sight is Hung I-hsiang.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_O7RqV8BYU&sns=em

[mickey]

Greetings Jimbo,

That is the footage taken by George Mattson Sensei of Uechi Ryu. It was shot during the 1960's.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Thanks for clarifying, mickey. I've had Mattson Sensei's book The Way of Karate, since I was a kid. One of Karate's true American pioneers. A little side note is that in the 60s, Bruce Lee visited his dojo in Boston, and before Donnie Yen got into movies, he studied a while under Mattson Sensei.

Here's some more footage from that gathering/demo. At about 1:22, the little girl almost whacks a couple of the spectators (teachers?) right in their faces with her swords, lol.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bygon9Debzg&sns=em