New Alan Orr Force Flow Clips

[Alan Orr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3yeN23B8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5eoyXFbU8

Some new clips for you all

[Grumblegeezer]

Thanks for posting those. Good to see some real WC.

[guy b.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3yeN23B8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5eoyXFbU8

Some new clips for you all

Thanks for posting. What is this type of chi sau developing?

[boxerbilly]

Allen is badass Wing Chun !

[Alan Orr]

Thanks for posting. What is this type of chi sau developing?

Did you not watch them? Where did I say this was a type of Chi Sao?

[boxerbilly]

I thought these to be vids on structure or mechanical advantage if you prefer. Alan did mention mechanics. But, I am not Wing Chun so what the heck do I know anything about this ? Of the vids I have seen of Alan, I have liked what he shows.

[guy b.]

Did you not watch them? Where did I say this was a type of Chi Sao?

In the first video you start doing chi sau at 3.30. What are you aiming to develop with this type of chi sau incorporating the "force flow" you are talking about in the clips?

In the second video you are doing chi sau from 5.30. Again what is the aim of the training?

[LFJ]

Looks like something fun to play with in chi-sau, but I've never seen it come out in any of your guys' fights.

Is there any fight I missed where it was applied? I've seen some Wing Chun body mechanics in your free striking, but that's about it. No manipulation of opponents like this seems to take place.

Just wondering, if it never comes out in fights, why not just spend more time on the stuff that actually works for you? Or as guy b. asks, what is the expected end-goal of this type of training?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Looks like something fun to play with in chi-sau, but I've never seen it come out in any of your guys' fights.

Is there any fight I missed where it was applied? I've seen some Wing Chun body mechanics in your free striking, but that's about it. No manipulation of opponents like this seems to take place.

Just wondering, if it never comes out in fights, why not just spend more time on the stuff that actually works for you? Or as guy b. asks, what is the expected end-goal of this type of training?

I am sure that Alan doesn't need my input on this, but the reason you don't "see it" is the same reason you don't see chi sao in a real fighter either.
The drills are used to develop a foundation for practical application which is then developed in sparring.

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCbRTofOHw
Looks like something fun to play with in chi-sau, but I've never seen it come out in any of your guys' fights.

Is there any fight I missed where it was applied? I've seen some Wing Chun body mechanics in your free striking, but that's about it. No manipulation of opponents like this seems to take place.

Just wondering, if it never comes out in fights, why not just spend more time on the stuff that actually works for you? Or as guy b. asks, what is the expected end-goal of this type of training?

[boxerbilly]

Anyway, that is one way he could teach you. Im sure he can give regular people skills too. I see applications outside of kick punch. Well like, Gary Lam. Send a dude into a wall. Just because something does not look the same as what another does, does not mean it cant be the same art. Maybe not exactly the same. Different line or someone in that line decided. " Hey, I got an idea to work a concept differently" "Lets see if it holds up. Can we use it? If not, as a training drill can it teach us anything? " One attribute I see right of the bat is well it can teach you aggressiveness and how to redirect aggression (pressure). Another is, what if you do not have center? How do you get it back while staying in some control of your own balance?

But again, pick it apart, I love to read peoples views and understanding. That's one way I learn.

[guy b.]

I am sure that Alan doesn't need my input on this, but the reason you don't "see it" is the same reason you don't see chi sao in a real fighter either.
The drills are used to develop a foundation for practical application which is then developed in sparring.

Asking what it is developing is a valid question. What is the practical skill or characteristic which is developed by doing these exercises?

[LFJ]

I am sure that Alan doesn't need my input on this, but the reason you don't "see it" is the same reason you don't see chi sao in a real fighter either.
The drills are used to develop a foundation for practical application which is then developed in sparring.

I don't think what he's showing is just the same as abstract training drills.

Sure, the "force flow" through his body may be invisible but it clearly has a visible effect on the opponent as he manipulates their balance and bounces them around while striking.

This seems to be what they intend to do with it in application.

If not, I'm asking what the goal is then.

Because I've not seen it happen in any of their fights. There is just free striking and BJJ, which is fine and works for them. I just wonder, why not continue to work on the things that actually show up in their fights and not spend time on apparent tricks that don't?

[boxerbilly]

Does Allen only train fighters because if not than maybe we are guilty of where it will work?

[Alan Orr]

Looks like something fun to play with in chi-sau, but I've never seen it come out in any of your guys' fights.

Is there any fight I missed where it was applied? I've seen some Wing Chun body mechanics in your free striking, but that's about it. No manipulation of opponents like this seems to take place.

Just wondering, if it never comes out in fights, why not just spend more time on the stuff that actually works for you? Or as guy b. asks, what is the expected end-goal of this type of training?

The problem is without the depth of understanding of what we really do, most can not see it. My guys do use these skills in fights. They are how the body is used under pressure and the reason why my guys always seem so strong and powerful. So the goal of this type of training is live pressure timing and control.

[Alan Orr]

I am sure that Alan doesn't need my input on this, but the reason you don't "see it" is the same reason you don't see chi sao in a real fighter either.
The drills are used to develop a foundation for practical application which is then developed in sparring.

correct. chi sao and drills are skill development

[Alan Orr]

Asking what it is developing is a valid question. What is the practical skill or characteristic which is developed by doing these exercises?

It is developing many skills. Timing of bow sequencing, control of power, power generation, positioning, awareness of angles, distancing the list goes on.

[Alan Orr]

I don't think what he's showing is just the same as abstract training drills.

Sure, the "force flow" through his body may be invisible but it clearly has a visible effect on the opponent as he manipulates their balance and bounces them around while striking.

This seems to be what they intend to do with it in application.

If not, I'm asking what the goal is then.

Because I've not seen it happen in any of their fights. There is just free striking and BJJ, which is fine and works for them. I just wonder, why not continue to work on the things that actually show up in their fights and not spend time on apparent tricks that don't?


I'm not doing BJJ in my clip. I have showing sequence control of the bows and dealing with pressure. Please read my over new posts. Note to all please post your live sparring of train training clips to show your example of how you develop your skills. That way we can compare ideas and I will be happy to film more clips.

Note to all if you like to meet up then please post your name and location and we can arrange exchanges with me and or my guys and film experiences rather than just guess stuff. Guys that have met me have confirmed it is very different first hand.

[Alan Orr]

Thanks for posting. What is this type of chi sau developing?

On the other forum you called Peter Irving a low level MMA fighter. Where are you based? As Peter would be happy to meet up so you can spar and see the difference of a real fighter of his level. I have taught Peter for 8 years and coached him when he beat UFC fighters and a Bellator Champ. So his level is far from low. You can give your deeper insight to the forum once you have found some balls and sparred a few rounds with him.

[LFJ]

The problem is without the depth of understanding of what we really do, most can not see it. My guys do use these skills in fights. They are how the body is used under pressure and the reason why my guys always seem so strong and powerful. So the goal of this type of training is live pressure timing and control.

Are you saying the goal is not to affect the opponent's balance and bounce them around while striking them, as in the chi-sau clips?

Because while the "force flow" in your body may be invisible, the effect on the opponent would be perfectly visible in fights, but it doesn't happen.

[guy b.]

On the other forum you called Peter Irving a low level MMA fighter. Where are you based? As Peter would be happy to meet up so you can spar and see the difference of a real fighter of his level. I have taught Peter for 8 years and coached him when he beat UFC fighters and a Bellator Champ. So his level is far from low. You can give your deeper insight to the forum once you have found some balls and sparred a few rounds with him.

You want to arrange a challenge match between me and Peter Irving because I identified him as a low to mid level MMA fighter? This is objectively what he is though. There is no shame in it and I am sure we all have every respect for what he has achieved. Why would statement of fact be cause for a showdown?

My point in making the statement on the other forum about Peter Irving was that your student was using the logic that Peter Irving could beat us all in a fight, so we out to just accept whatever you say about wing chun. That is both silly and illogical.

[Frost]

You want to arrange a challenge match between me and Peter Irving because I identified him as a low to mid level MMA fighter? This is objectively what he is though. There is no shame in it and I am sure we all have every respect for what he has achieved. Why would statement of fact be cause for a showdown?

My point in making the statement on the other forum about Peter Irving was that your student was using the logic that Peter Irving could beat us all in a fight, so we out to just accept whatever you say about wing chun. That is both silly and illogical.

Well if his students are actually winning fights and he can post clips of this, and you cant, who are we to believe when you both start talking about what is and isn't wing chun and now it works in reality ....
It used to be the simple logic in martial arts that people that actually fought and did well got listened to when they talked about fighting with their art, i wonder when that all changed

:):confused::eek::rolleyes::)

[guy b.]

Well if his students are actually winning fights and he can post clips of this, and you cant, who are we to believe when you both start talking about what is and isn't wing chun and now it works in reality ....
It used to be the simple logic in martial arts that people that actually fought and did well got listened to when they talked about fighting with their art, i wonder when that all changed

I think Peter Irving is more of a friend than a student. He was already an MMA fighter before Alan

There are no wing chun fighters in MMA apart from Alan's. Not sure how many of those are left, initial batch seem to have disappeared. Maybe Aaron Baum is still active, I don't know.

A sample size of 1 doesn't tell you anything about anything.

[Hendrik]

It is this simple, there is no need to keep guessing and argue on a physics phenomenon one don't know by explicit look which one has no idea what one is looking at.

If a person who read my book can clearly know and be able to have a simple experience on what it is, what is the point to keep bugging ALan who study with Robert and me directly on force flow?

Why even waste time?

[Alan Orr]

You want to arrange a challenge match between me and Peter Irving because I identified him as a low to mid level MMA fighter? This is objectively what he is though. There is no shame in it and I am sure we all have every respect for what he has achieved. Why would statement of fact be cause for a showdown?

My point in making the statement on the other forum about Peter Irving was that your student was using the logic that Peter Irving could beat us all in a fight, so we out to just accept whatever you say about wing chun. That is both silly and illogical.



You judge but who gives you the right? Man up and show us why you are able to judge. I'm not talking about a challenge match just sparring. If you are so aware then show us why.

[Alan Orr]

I think Peter Irving is more of a friend than a student. He was already an MMA fighter before Alan

There are no wing chun fighters in MMA apart from Alan's. Not sure how many of those are left, initial batch seem to have disappeared. Maybe Aaron Baum is still active, I don't know.

A sample size of 1 doesn't tell you anything about anything.


Again you say ' you think' which is the same as I have no fu9king clue. I have been teaching Pete for over 8 years and coached him for many of his big fights.

No wing chun fighters? Again your limited awareness is shown again. I have many fighters. Josh Kaldani is 4-0 professional now.

My student Duane Harper as many fighters.

Ale my new female wing chun fighter won her first MMA fight last year and is fighting in 4 weeks.

Ben and Jo won big fights last year.

I have 3-4 guys getting ready to fight soon as well.


In my group we have lots of fighters and other wing chun branches also have fighters so your statement is just foolish.

[guy b.]

You judge but who gives you the right? Man up and show us why you are able to judge. I'm not talking about a challenge match just sparring. If you are so aware then show us why.

You seem to lack perspective and logic. I am not "judging" Peter Irving in a negative way by having a look at his record and using it to state objectively where he is in the ranks of MMA fighters in his weight class. I have nothing against Peter Irving and a statement of fact should not cause him any offence.

I don't know why you are pimping out Peter Irving to fight me because I mentioned facts about him on an internet forum. If Peter Irving does indeed wish to fight me over this apparent outrage then shouldn't he be involved in the conversation?

If Peter Irving and you wish to make it happen, then offer me a fee and I will come back to you. I know this will be hard for you because you generally don't like to pay, but that is what you will need to do.

[guy b.]

Again you say ' you think' which is the same as I have no fu9king clue. I have been teaching Pete for over 8 years and coached him for many of his big fights.

No wing chun fighters? Again your limited awareness is shown again. I have many fighters. Josh Kaldani is 4-0 professional now.

My student Duane Harper as many fighters.

Ale my new female wing chun fighter won her first MMA fight last year and is fighting in 4 weeks.

Ben and Jo won big fights last year.

I have 3-4 guys getting ready to fight soon as well.


In my group we have lots of fighters and other wing chun branches also have fighters so your statement is just foolish.

This doesn't answer the point being made, and again you react in a knee jerk and angry fashion. I don't know which fighters you have because I don't follow your team very closely. I know that some of the original ones have faded out of the picture for whatever reason. It is irrelevant.

The point (in answer to Frost) is that your participation in MMA events does not automatically make your opinion correct on wing chun in MMA becuase no other wing chun fighters participate in MMA. A sample size of 1 allows no conclusion to be drawn about the relative efficacy of your approach compared to others. If we had one other wing chun group participating for 10 years then we might be able to draw conclusions about the relative effectiveness of those 2 approaches in MMA competition. But we don't, so we can't. That is all.

I make the point because of the logical flaws in Frost's argument, not because I wish to insult or belittle you.

[Alan Orr]

You seem to lack perspective and logic. I am not "judging" Peter Irving in a negative way by having a look at his record and using it to state objectively where he is in the ranks of MMA fighters in his weight class. I have nothing against Peter Irving and a statement of fact should not cause him any offence.

I don't know why you are pimping out Peter Irving to fight me because I mentioned facts about him on an internet forum. If Peter Irving does indeed wish to fight me over this apparent outrage then shouldn't he be involved in the conversation?

If Peter Irving and you wish to make it happen, then offer me a fee and I will come back to you. I know this will be hard for you because you generally don't like to pay, but that is what you will need to do.

You want to be paid to spar with him? All I was saying was do a few rounds with him and then make comments rather that guess opinions.

[Alan Orr]

This doesn't answer the point being made, and again you react in a knee jerk and angry fashion. I don't know which fighters you have because I don't follow your team very closely. I know that some of the original ones have faded out of the picture for whatever reason. It is irrelevant.

The point (in answer to Frost) is that your participation in MMA events does not automatically make your opinion correct on wing chun in MMA becuase no other wing chun fighters participate in MMA. A sample size of 1 allows no conclusion to be drawn about the relative efficacy of your approach compared to others. If we had one other wing chun group participating for 10 years then we might be able to draw conclusions about the relative effectiveness of those 2 approaches in MMA competition. But we don't, so we can't. That is all.

I make the point because of the logical flaws in Frost's argument, not because I wish to insult or belittle you.

Your the one that makes incorrect statements. So I am just correcting that.

Post clips of your training or sparring so we can see what your insights are about. At least that way we can see your insight and where your views come from.

[Alan Orr]

Well if his students are actually winning fights and he can post clips of this, and you cant, who are we to believe when you both start talking about what is and isn't wing chun and now it works in reality ....
It used to be the simple logic in martial arts that people that actually fought and did well got listened to when they talked about fighting with their art, i wonder when that all changed

:):confused::eek::rolleyes::)

Good post. Thank you. In an age where one can film a clip so quickly, it seems crazy people with so much to say on others that they can't post a clip of what they do.

[guy b.]

You want to be paid to spar with him? All I was saying was do a few rounds with him and then make comments rather that guess opinions.

Deciding where Peter Irving ranks in terms of active MMA fighters is best measured by looking at his record. It is merely factual, not something for you to feel insulted about on his behalf.

Suggesting that I spar with him to measure his level in terms of active MMA fighters is obviously not logical thinking and would not provide an objective measure the MMA ability of Peter Irving. You are suggesting it because you continue the same flawed logic of your student on the other forum and Frost on this one. Staistics are required to decide on the best approach to wing chun for MMA. Statistics are not available. Single challenge matches with Peter Irving do not change this fact.

I can't help if you are hard of thinking. But if you want me to engage in a fight with an MMA fighter in order to somehow promote your wing chun then you will need to pay me to do it, just like you would need to pay anyone else.

[Alan Orr]

Deciding where Peter Irving ranks in terms of active MMA fighters is best measured by looking at his record. It is merely factual, not something for you to feel insulted about on his behalf.

Suggesting that I spar with him to measure his level in terms of active MMA fighters is obviously not logical thinking and would not provide an objective measure the MMA ability of Peter Irving. You are suggesting it because you continue the same flawed logic of your student on the other forum and Frost on this one. Staistics are required to decide on the best approach to wing chun for MMA. Statistics are not available. Single challenge matches with Peter Irving do not change this fact.

I can't help if you are hard of thinking. But if you want me to engage in a fight with an MMA fighter in order to somehow promote your wing chun then you will need to pay me to do it, just like you would need to pay anyone else.

haha I was saying to you that if you think he has a low level then spar with him. You can spin all day.

[guy b.]

Good post. Thank you. In an age where one can film a clip so quickly, it seems crazy people with so much to say on others that they can't post a clip of what they do.

You say in your own clip that you don't show what your fighters use doing because you want them to have an advantage. I think that the same usually applies to others.

[guy b.]

haha I was saying to you that if you think he has a low level then spar with him. You can spin all day.

I know you were saying that, but it is the thought process of a person who isn't that good at thinking. Was just pointing that out.

Pay me if you want to make a promotional video.

[Alan Orr]

You say in your own clip that you don't show what your fighters use doing because you want them to have an advantage. I think that the same usually applies to others.

Sure easy way out

[Alan Orr]

I know you were saying that, but it is the thought process of a person who isn't that good at thinking. Was just pointing that out.

Pay me if you want to make a promotional video.

Passive aggressive BS as normal.

[guy b.]

Passive aggressive BS as normal.

If you are going to be illogical when you are arguing with me then I am going to point it out. You seem like quite an emotional person, what with the brave proxy challange match and attempts to bully. Please try to stay balanced when speaking to me in future. I don't appreciate your frothing at the mouth.

[Frost]

If you are going to be illogical when you are arguing with me then I am going to point it out. You seem like quite an emotional person, what with the brave proxy challange match and attempts to bully. Please try to stay balanced when speaking to me in future. I don't appreciate your frothing at the mouth.

im pretty sure if Alan was on your side of the planet he wouldn't be offering proxy challanges and all that, but offering to meet up and spar with you in person

If memory serves he has offered you a chance to train at his gym before when he was in the UK

As for not wanting to show videos of yourself because you dont want an opponent getting an edge on you, come off it

Thats a completely understandable answer from someone training pro fighters, whose next opponent will be googling the hell out of them, but a complete cope out when coming from you, i mean are you expecting your next mugger to google you and your fighting style before mugging you??!

[guy b.]

im pretty sure if Alan was on your side of the planet he wouldn't be offering proxy challanges and all that, but offering to meet up and spar with you in person

If memory serves he has offered you a chance to train at his gym before when he was in the UK

I did go and train there


As for not wanting to show videos of yourself because you dont want an opponent getting an edge on you, come off it

This is the reason systems are not shown to everyone

[Frost]

I did go and train there



This is the reason systems are not shown to everyone

This should get interesting quickly, the last time you said you had trained with someone you were talking badly about, they publicly called you a liar and denied it :)

We are not talking about showing a system to someone who will then use it against you in a time of war or in a gang setting, or attack your village
It's the 21st century the only reason not to post clips of yourself sparring is because you either don't do it, or you are that bad we will all laugh at you, kind of like that happened with Kevin :)

Usless you are serious when you say you are worried about someone stealing your secrets and then mugging you, if that's the case do you also avoid having your picture taken in case your soul gets stolen??

[guy b.]

The last time you said you had trained with someone, they called you a liar

That's because they didn't want anything to do with the argument I was involved in. I would say understandable.


We are not talking about showing a system to someone who will then use it against you

Committing anything useful and complete to video is a bad idea because people can learn from it in an uncontrolled way. This is why people put rubbish in videos.

[Alan Orr]

I did go and train there



This is the reason systems are not shown to everyone

You came to a class many years ago ? So you have a great insight ? Really lol

[Alan Orr]

If you are going to be illogical when you are arguing with me then I am going to point it out. You seem like quite an emotional person, what with the brave proxy challange match and attempts to bully. Please try to stay balanced when speaking to me in future. I don't appreciate your frothing at the mouth.

Now your a victim ? Emotional ? What would you know ? Like your ideas they are all guess work.