the arts over the years - what have we learned?

[uki]

the age old debate on what is the proper practice, best technique, and most beneficial training methods has been scattered across the board since the inception of "martial arts" in the ancient past. mankinds individual methods of protecting oneself from extinction be it from man, beast, or outright natural calamity - people have indulged in the concepts of improving physical and mental proficiency to a science which has sprung forth into various trunks, branches, leaves, and nuts. looking back on our martial arts history in our own personal lives and how it began, how we trained over the years, how we haven't, how we have incorporated new ideas to our own personal regime of where our martial arts training has lead us - has our training led us into grander horizons or are we still perfecting the same old form, from the same old dude, from the relative same old time, long ago?? one thing i discovered in all my earthly travels is that the master resides in each and everyone of us, practice is the key - what we practice is what we become, which ultimately is who we are. have you become what you set out to be when you began to practice? i know i have - the martial arts has changed my life for the greater good. my newest fun is rattan short sticks. brought two sets home from mindanao and find myself playing with them alot, interestingly enough i have 3lb iron sticks i use for club juggling that i can now use for stick fighting conditioning. good stuff these... martial arts. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my 35+ years of training and competing and fighting I have learned one simple truth:
To be a martial artist, to truly understand any MA, one MUST fight and fight often.
Painters paint, swimmers swim, shooters shoot, and fighters fight.
There is NO WAY to understand any MA without the pain and "eating bitter" of actually fighting other FIGHTERS that want to take your head off.

[Jimbo]

I agree with SR. Without the fighting aspect, one might be called a 'movement' artist but not necessarily a 'martial' artist. By its very nature, the MA journey is not meant to be an easy one, and sparring or fighting is a big part of that. And one must gain experience against all kinds of people from all types of backgrounds, not only within the confines of your own school/system. Complacency, especially during the long developmental period, is to be avoided.

I'm now in my 40th year of MA since I became serious about it, and though I haven't been able to spar since 2009 (due to an injury I've had since 2005), and I am not a 'fighter' now by any means, in the past I was willing to spar almost anyone. I faced anyone from champion fighters to awkward guys with little to no formal training who nevertheless were wild and eager to take your head off. Many of the latter type were more dangerous than many black belts. It all contributes to your personal experience database. I wouldn't say I ever became a "great fighter", but I certainly learned how I reacted under fire against a variety of opponent types in various environments. I've had my @ss handed to me; I've done the same to others; and I've experienced where neither side could gain any clear advantage. It's not about boasting or being the biggest "bad@ss", but about your own personal journey as a MAist. You learn about your strengths and limitations. Pretty standard, IMO.

At this point, I continue to train what I can on my own. Because it's an indispensable part of my life, and because I like it. There also has to be an enjoyment factor along with other perceived benefits, otherwise you won't continue doing it beyond a certain point. I'm not ashamed to say that, over the years, I've also come to appreciate forms practice more now than before.

What system(s) you do matters less than what you've put into it/them. Every journey is different, and even within the same system/school, you won't (or shouldn't) be the same as others, because your individual paths will be different.

[GeneChing]

I'm now in my 40th year of MA since I became serious about it, and though I haven't been able to spar since 2009 (due to an injury I've had since 2005), and I am not a 'fighter' now by any means, in the past I was willing to spar almost anyone. Your fight, Jimbo, is within now. Ultimately, that's the hardest fight of all. There are all of these metaphors about how the greatest enemy is yourself, but for any lifelong martial artist, that means coping with aging, the loss of faculties like speed, endurance and quick recovery, the accumulation of scars. That's why I venerate the seniors, the practitioners who have more than a half century of life. They survived. Especially now that I've joined that community, and see so many of my old classmates who have gave up, moved on, and can only talk about their glory days, I have the utmost respect for elder practitioners. Without their physicality, they only have their martial wisdom to rely upon, and that's the real essence of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To echo Gene and Jimbo:
Because of health issues I too can't do full contact sparring anymore and light contact is, well, not for me.
The last few years have been spent "refining" and "polishing" my Art.
I am no longer a fighter but I am BECOMINg a martial artist.
As Gene said, it is far harder but also far more rewarding.
No longer the domination of others, but the much harder task of domination of self.

[Jimbo]

Great points, Gene and SR!

Yes, I too am finally becoming a martial artist. I've been forced to examine things from a different perspective, and my understanding is becoming much deeper than ever before. It's easy to take things for granted when one is young without any chronic issues. But also, in many ways I'm also becoming aware of how much I DON'T know. And while I've always had respect for MA elders' decades of experiences, I've gained much more respect for people with special challenges who train. If there's a deeper underlying reason for everything, then maybe this challenge of mine was to help to accelerate my maturity level in certain areas.

I also want to point out that, like the title 'master', the term 'martial ARTIST' is a term that is inappropriately applied to many people. Just because one has taken up and/or practices a MA does not in itself make one a 'MAist'. In the same way that simply buying art paper and pencils and doodling or copying others' work doesn't make one an artist. It can take years, even decades, for someone to truly start becoming an artist.

[uki]

There are all of these metaphors about how the greatest enemy is yourself, but for any lifelong martial artist, that means coping with aging, the loss of faculties like speed, endurance and quick recovery, the accumulation of scars. That's why I venerate the seniors, the practitioners who have more than a half century of life. They survived. Especially now that I've joined that community, and see so many of my old classmates who have gave up, moved on, and can only talk about their glory days, I have the utmost respect for elder practitioners. Without their physicality, they only have their martial wisdom to rely upon, and that's the real essence of it.i seem to remember some metaphors about "the best fighter has no need to fight" and "train young what you can still train old".


In my 35+ years of training and competing and fighting I have learned one simple truth:
To be a martial artist, to truly understand any MA, one MUST fight and fight often.
Painters paint, swimmers swim, shooters shoot, and fighters fight.
There is NO WAY to understand any MA without the pain and "eating bitter" of actually fighting other FIGHTERS that want to take your head off.but wait...


Because of health issues I too can't do full contact sparring anymore and light contact is, well, not for me.because of injuries sustained fighting in attempts to prove your martial art or because your martial arts ability failed to give you confidence to win a fight?

The last few years have been spent "refining" and "polishing" my Art. which you could have done before sustaining injuries that inhibit your ability to fight?

I am no longer a fighter but I am becoming a martial artist. glad you clarified that because i was under the impression you had to fight in order to be a martial artist. whew. *wipes forehead*

As Gene said, it is far harder but also far more rewarding.what is more rewarding - proving yourself a martial artist long enough to become unfit to fight before becoming a true martial artist or simply focusing on being a martial artist altogether?

No longer the domination of others, but the much harder task of domination of self.very true and i am very happy you have discovered this truth for yourself - being a womanizing spartan warrior only lasts so long. ;)


What system(s) you do matters less than what you've put into it/them. Every journey is different, and even within the same system/school, you won't (or shouldn't) be the same as others, because your individual paths will be different.ditto.

[uki]

is it just me or are health issues a politically correct cop-out accepting you are a *bleep*?? question... does a person who trains to be a martial artist without trying to prove to everyone he is make him more fit to fight when the need arises?? i mean, aspiring martial artists spend half their life fighting to prove their martial arts ability, only to be injured in the process and how they cannot full contact spar mcfight anymore - does this mean that now, once they realized they are physically incapable of fighting, they can be stomped by someone who was wise enough not to injure himself prioving to be a fighter?? example... so and so trained 35+ years in a style, fighting, injuring and being injured and another so and so spent the same amount of time being a martial artist, but felt no need to prove his art: who wins? the guy who fought often and is crippled or the guy who has yet to fight? ;)

[bawang]

martial arts helped me understand aggression and help me identify malicious psychopathic behaviour in real life, since white collar jobs have a lot of covert aggression

[uki]

martial arts helped me understand aggression and help me identify malicious psychopathic behaviour in real life, since white collar jobs have a lot of covert aggressionmartial arts helped me simply live true to being myself - it is almost a superpower these days... being true to yourself. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

who wins? the guy who fought often and is crippled or the guy who has yet to fight? ;)

- Soldiers die in the battle field. They had fun of fighting all their life.
- Scholars die in their bedroom. They have never had the fun of fighting.

When you take your opponent down successfully under your knee, you will smile in your dream for the next 3 nights. Even money won't be able to buy such fun for you.

[uki]

- Soldiers die on the battle field. They had fun of fighting all their life.
- Scholars die in their bedroom. They have never had the fun of fighting.

When you take your opponent down successfully under your knee, you will smile in your dream for the next 3 nights. Even money won't be able to buy such fun for you.this all of course is the reasoning and wisdom advice from someone looking at only one lifetime, yes? ;)

[uki]

Even money won't be able to buy such fun for you.hahahaha... i got plenty of **** to offer for free that even the most skilled martial artists will not accept. :)

[Kellen Bassette]

i mean, aspiring martial artists spend half their life fighting to prove their martial arts ability, only to be injured in the process and how they cannot full contact spar mcfight anymore - does this mean that now, once they realized they are physically incapable of fighting, they can be stomped by someone who was wise enough not to injure himself prioving to be a fighter?? example... so and so trained 35+ years in a style, fighting, injuring and being injured and another so and so spent the same amount of time being a martial artist, but felt no need to prove his art: who wins? the guy who fought often and is crippled or the guy who has yet to fight? ;)


The day comes for every fighter when he can no longer fight, there is no shame in that. One who practices martial arts his whole life and never tested himself is inexcusable, shame to him, his teachers and his system.

Does a musician learn music theory his whole life, read sheet music and drill scales, never to actually play a song? What was the point? Who was he fooling?

[Jimbo]

uki:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking to improve yourself and test yoursel/your art when you are young. It is, after all, MARTIAL art. I originally got into martial arts not because I was fascinated by the art or was seeking some kind of enlightenment; it was because I was in a time when I had an urgent need to learn to protect myself. Sure there is beauty in the art. But when you have an immediate need, that matters little, doesn't it?

Let me also say that a certain amount of aggression is normal for (many) young males, and so long as it's channeled in certain acceptable ways, it can be constructive for the development of an individual. When that natural tendency is stymied, as it is today, it's only suppressed. Nowadays, almost everyone wants to coddle and shelter their kids. This suffocating desire to suppress this normal tendency is ONE reason why there are so many more shootings at schools and elsewhere. This suppression cannot eliminate it, so the steam (aggression) that might have been released naturally, builds up until it explodes in a total passive-aggressive manner. In times past, when someone was bullied and finally stood up and fought for himself, more often than not, once the fight was over, it was over. Win or lose, the former 'victim' gained a degree of respect. That's no longer the case. Because the loser dosen't learn how to deal with any natural "code", he now comes back with a gun. Or the aggression plays out online, without ever coming face-to-face. This chicken**** behavior has now become the norm, especially among the younger generation.

BTW, my own injury that affected ME was NOT MA-related. So that kind of puts the kibosh on the argument that emphasizing the martial aspect of MA will necessarily lead to ruin as you enter middle age.

Anyway, good thread, uki.

[YouKnowWho]

the martial arts has changed my life for the greater good.

The martial arts has also changed my life for the greater good too.

Someone wanted to kill me. Now he tried to avoid me for the rest of his life (today he lives in Houston). Last words that he said to me was, "Look at how big and strong you are and how little and weak I'm. You also train MA. How can you take advantage on me?" He finally knows that earth is not a safe place for him to live and he should move to Mars if he can.

Instead of for me to worry about my life. MA makes my opponent to worry about his life.

[RenDaHai]

Self knowledge, being honest with myself.

I used to base my martial arts on some form of theoretical courage. You go through all these battles in your mind and tell yourself you could use this technique and that technique, but when things really happen, fast and dangerous, it is amazing how much you (me) are willing to settle for a less than perfect outcome.

There are inhibitions, walls in the mind against doing certain things. It is much easier to kick someone than to punch someone, not physically, but psychologically for example. Most people don't take account of this, of the psychological element to technique -- they assume they can be as aggressive in real life as they are in sparring. Sometimes its true, sometimes not, because the state of your mind is not always constant, the motivations, the things your fighting for are not always constant.

I've learned in some small way to be more honest about what I can really do. Not what I am physically capable of but what I am psychologically capable of at that moment, in that place.

When expectation lines up with reality, this is the sign of a master, this and not the measurement of some incidental power.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i seem to remember some metaphors about "the best fighter has no need to fight" and "train young what you can still train old".

but wait...

because of injuries sustained fighting in attempts to prove your martial art or because your martial arts ability failed to give you confidence to win a fight?
which you could have done before sustaining injuries that inhibit your ability to fight?
glad you clarified that because i was under the impression you had to fight in order to be a martial artist. whew. *wipes forehead*
what is more rewarding - proving yourself a martial artist long enough to become unfit to fight before becoming a true martial artist or simply focusing on being a martial artist altogether?
very true and i am very happy you have discovered this truth for yourself - being a womanizing spartan warrior only lasts so long. ;)

ditto.

Seems like you STILL have a lot to learn son.

I do find your interpretation of what I wrote interesting. Incorrect but interesting.

Note that I did NOT say that I no longer fight full contact because of injuries.
Someone seems to have assumed what they wanted to.
My health issues are, like some here know, Meniere's disease and because of it I can't, for obvious reasons, spar.

[Jimbo]

i seem to remember some metaphors about "the best fighter has no need to fight" and "train young what you can still train old".

That first metaphor doesn't mean that the "best fighter" has never fought/sparred/tested himself. Quite the contrary. It means that by knowing himself through experience and the consequences of real violence, he has confidence and thus no more need to prove himself, or to fight unnecessarily. He has nothing LEFT to prove.

Your stance on this is similar to someone who interprets the old saying, "Maximum effect with minimum effort" as meaning that hard training is detrimental, so you must train without breaking a sweat. You might be surprised to learn that many people believe just that. Minimum effort does not mean minimum training, but quite the opposite. Because of long, hard training and experience, one becomes able to apply less effort and still have a maximum effect.

As to your second metaphor, emphasizing the combative aspect doesn't mean that one forgoes all the other aspects of MA, just the direction of one's emphasis. If you want to develop the combative aspect to the fullest potential you can, you MUST do it while young. You cannot start doing it when you're old. There's PLENTY of time as one ages to delve deeper into other aspects of training. One's training necessarily evolves throughout one's life.

[MightyB]

The real reason to do martial arts...








Is to get the Chicks!


https://asteriks.noblogs.org/files/2010/10/ugly-fat-girl.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

That first metaphor doesn't mean that the "best fighter" has never fought/sparred/tested himself. Quite the contrary. It means that by knowing himself through experience and the consequences of real violence, he has confidence and thus no more need to prove himself, or to fight unnecessarily. He has nothing LEFT to prove.

Your stance on this is similar to someone who interprets the old saying, "Maximum effect with minimum effort" as meaning that hard training is detrimental, so you must train without breaking a sweat. You might be surprised to learn that many people believe just that. Minimum effort does not mean minimum training, but quite the opposite. Because of long, hard training and experience, one becomes able to apply less effort and still have a maximum effect.

As to your second metaphor, emphasizing the combative aspect doesn't mean that one forgoes all the other aspects of MA, just the direction of one's emphasis. If you want to develop the combative aspect to the fullest potential you can, you MUST do it while young. You cannot start doing it when you're old. There's PLENTY of time as one ages to delve deeper into other aspects of training. One's training necessarily evolves throughout one's life.

Jimbo is quite correct.
I have concerns with those that profess to practise and train in a martial art yet have issues about testing said MA against fellow fighters.
How does one develop martial skill without actually testing and perfect that skill within the context that it exists, ie: fighting?

Quite simply, one can't.

[MightyB]

define fighting or what constitutes valid testing.

[bawang]

my second day back in canada i take tai chi class. meet smug chinese student with big eyebrows who mutter about me to other senior student from corner of mouth, and thin, gaunt balding white dude with haunting empty eyes who tell me to relax then try fajing on me full force.

i have learn kung fu still pretty gay