Taizu's Longfist is First 太祖的長拳起首

[Tainan Mantis]

Most schools of Mantis pay homage to the list of Eighteen Masters that make up our style.
At the beginning of the Eighteen founders of Mantis (Which we should really be calling Luohan), a list of 18 masters and their specialty,is Song Taizu, founding Emperor of the Song Dynasty.


太祖的長拳起首， Taizu's Longfist Comes First.


If his Longfist comes first it must be pretty important.
So, if we really understand our style, or if masters understand this style, then what does Taizu's Longfist actually mean?

Looking at Longfist today is a maze of confusion. A never ending list of forms.
Even within a single style or school of Longfist will likely have many many forms of longfist.

Or, you may say that within our 18 masters list Taizu's Longfist refers to a Longfist form as taught to the military during the Ming, famously known as Taizu's Longfist.

But, I say that it is neither of those. Instead it means a technique, not a form, or a style. It means Taizu's single technique that he passed down for posterity. So, if Taizu has but a single technique and our list of creators of the style is only eighteen, then how many techniques does the style have?

Eighteen techniques? Thirty-six techniques? Hardly enough to make up so many forms that exist today.

Eighteen Masters
太祖的長拳起首，韓通的通背為母；
鄭恩的纏封尤妙，溫元的短拳更奇；
馬籍的短打最甚，孫恆的猴拳且盛；
黃祐的靠身難近，綿盛的面掌飛疾；
金相的磕手通拳，懷德的摔捋硬崩；
劉興的勾摟採手，譚方的滾漏貫耳；
燕青的拈拿跌法，林沖的鴛鴦腳強；
孟甦的七勢連拳，崔連的窩裡剖捶；
楊滾的棍採直入，王朗的螳螂總敵。

[mawali]

Taizhichangquan is an old method and it appears that based on where the form was learned, Taizhu took on many shapes, features, skills, etc base don the province, town or village where it ended up. Didn't Sal and few scholars identify a Taizhu form that was a basis for Chen shi Family art now known as taijiquan:confused:

[YouKnowWho]

This is the Taizu long fist that I have learned.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2h2W-SVis

[YouKnowWho]

Here is another clip.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoQNNNaTDO0

[RAF]

Partial clip of the taizuquan of Liu Yunqiao:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3nWtZSfAx4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3nWtZSfAx4

[Tainan Mantis]

Great. Thanks Fellas for posting examples of Longfist forms. There are millions of these longfist forms on the internet now. Plus more we have not yet seen.

And these two examples (first two videos being the same form) are a good cross section. They are both valid longfist and yet both different stylistically. So, in terms of Old Praying Mantis, or even in terms of Ming Dynasty General Qi Jiguang, does "Song Taizu's Longfist" refer to a form like this.

I say not.

It refers only to a technique.
That should be a technique that shows up in the schools of, Longfist, Tongbei (or Tongbi if that is what you like to call it), Taichi, Mantis and several southern styles going all the way to Okinawan Karate.
We would expect the technique to look radically different between Taiji and Karate, but there should still be a link, even if we are no longer able to find it.

Without the ability to determine what Song Taizu's technique was, styles like Longfist, Mantis, Tongbei, Taiji are missing an important component of defining what they are.

So the next question would be; how do we go about defining the very first component of what makes up our style?

[Cataphract]

Taizu was the original form in the Shaolin curriculum according to Sal Canzonieri, containing several techniques from several masters. http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle35-TZQ.htm
The "Three Battles" San Cheen spread from the Nan Taizu system into the other Fujian arts, probably an adaption from earlier northern forms. http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm
Sanchin used to be the introduction Kata of Karate, until some schools chose to replace it. It's main ideas are preserved in the fairly widespread Seisan/Hangetsu/Zimen Quan Kata.

[YouKnowWho]

The "Taizu Chuan" and "Taizu's Longfist" are complete different systems.

This is "Taizu Chuan".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWETWXODke4&feature=youtu.be

[Mantis9700]

If what we are looking for is a technique...would it be helpful to first eliminate what the technique is not. In other words, is it safe to assume the technique is not a kick, not a trip, not a take down etc. The technique is presumably a strike. So what techniques do taiji, longfist, mantis and other styles have in common that are not the techniques that have been eliminated. Old kungfu seems to be very simple and straight to the point. So what if we look at techniques like that:
A variation of high pat on horse
A simple 1,2 combination like a jab then cross
Or maybe a variation of "stealing the heart"

I leave the rest of this conversation up to the experts.

[Cataphract]

The "Taizu Chuan" and "Taizu's Longfist" are complete different systems.

This is "Taizu Chuan".

If by Taizu Chuan you mean southern Taizu, then they may still have something in common.
First theory: Southern Taizu is derived directly from Song Taizu, adapted to fighting on boats.
Second: Taizu is Yue Fei of Southern Song, who was certainly influenced by the combat methods of Song Taizu.
Third: It is Ming Taizu, when Shaolin Taizu Quan had already influenced the northern long fist styles.

Correction. These theories are not mine. I'm simply paraphrasing.

[Jimbo]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.

Also, re: Mantis 9700's idea of discovery through elimination:

At this point, it may be near-impossible to identify which exact technique it could be. Even if it does refer to a technique, being listed as 'Taizu's Long Fist' does not necessarily mean it's a fist punch or even limited to being a hand strike. A high percentage of simple Kung Fu techniques have aspects of kick, strike and throw, even if, in outward appearance, they present as one or the other.

[xiao yao]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.



I like that idea. It could just refer to "long range fighting" eg: keeping your distance from your opponent, using long arm and leg techniques

[Tainan Mantis]

So what if we look at techniques like that:
A variation of high pat on horse


Interesting choice.
Of all the techniques you could have named why did you mention Pat Horse?

[Tainan Mantis]

Taizhu form that was a basis for Chen shi Family art now known as taijiquan:confused:

Modern Taiji is descended from Song Taizu's Longfist form as recorded in a short chapter of General Qi Jiguang's military manual New Book on Effective Training Methods published early 1560's. Republished several more times in the Ming and Qing dynasty. There is no indication that it was ever a rare book.

I have seen with my own eyes a handwritten version purported to be from the end of the Ming or at least the beginning of the Qing. It is larger than the book and in color on a rolled up scroll sealed in a safe. The owner pointed out the headgear; the soldiers wearing something like a turban or headscarf.

Unlike during the Qing when the queue (the braided pony tail) became required by law at the start of the Qing.

[Mantis9700]

Interesting choice.
Of all the techniques you could have named why did you mention Pat Horse?

A combination of reflection and circumstance.
In terms of reflection...you mentioned a single technique so the technique was brought into mantis. Looking at the other techniques/methods of the 18 masters they are not useless complicated techniques. Most of the techniques on that list require 1 or 2 movements and are straight to the point. I would assume this was one of the parameters when mantis was being formed. Techniques that work, are battle tested, have low failure rate and are efficient and easy to understand and can be trained over and over again. Is it safe to assume Taizu's longfist technique would have to meet those same requirements? Taiji is supposedly older than mantis (I will allow the experts to debate that) so what technique in styles of kungfu such as taiji and older than mantis can be found in mantis and taiji and other styles. Still a lot of techniques to consider but that is the fun part about taking apart forms and drilling single techniques and seeing what really works and what doesnt and how easy and efficient the technique is. When doing that I came to hand full of techniques that I mentioned in my initial post.

I did see this before my initial post:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEcygw7T_GM

[Tainan Mantis]

Taizu was the original form in the Shaolin curriculum according to Sal Canzonieri, containing several techniques from several masters. http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle35-TZQ.htm


So, let's take a look at a snip from Sal's opening quote:


There is much controversy surrounding the origin of Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan - 少林 太祖 长拳. People from China 's Henan ( 河南 ) area believe that Taizu Chang Quan was developed in the early Song ( 宋) Dynasty era, under the sponsorship of first emperor Zhao Kuangyin - 趙匡胤. Others believe it was developed during the Ming ( 明 ) dynasty era and is only named ‘Taizu'- 太祖 in honor of either the Song Emperor or even the first Ming Emperor Zhu Yuanzhang - 朱元璋 , who was known as Ming Taizu - 明太祖 and also as ‘Hong Wu' - 洪武 .



So the controversy being that we don't know when it was created or named after what guy, Taizu of the Song or Taizu of the Ming.

The above statement is incorrect in terms of who it was named after and what period it descends from.

Let's start with the who;

The Ming dynasty is full of information on Song Taizu's martial prowess. The list is long indeed and I won't go into it here.
There are novels and plays and historical fiction, not to mention actual recorded history itself that points to Song Taizu as the well known fighter. Troops of the Ming dynasty were being taught martial arts named after Song Taizu as well as weapons forms. For those that could read, they were reading the stories, and for those uneducated they were watching the story on stage.

And the When.

If it is indeed something passed down from Song Taizu he would have learned it, not made it up. Since their method of warfare had been in practice for hundreds of years, they would have thought of it as coming from the last legitimate dynasty as seen from their eyes, the Tang.
Interesting to note that Karate-originally means "Tang Hand."

And the where:
Definitely not Shaolin.
Military didn't go to a temple to learn how to fight from monks. Fighting was conducted on horseback and practiced all day. Monks were in the temple concerned with temple affairs.

Not until after the final fall of the Song Dynasty does Shaolin start a legend of their stick dating to the Mid-1300's.
There is a reliable account of Shaolin Monks in battle , but that was several dynasties and hundreds of years prior.

[Cataphract]

Also, a ‘body shaking' method was used for transferring this internally generated energy; the opening and closing of the Kua caused the heels to alternately press into the ground in such a way that the body was used as a lever to transfer the body weight up the legs, around the hip/waist area (the ‘dantian'), up through the spine, and out the striking area. The Long Fist idea itself consisted of moving this kinetic energy in an attack as one long fist, moving from one arm through the shoulders and back and out the other arm.

This idea was the original use of “tong bi” – “through the arm”, which was pointing and piercing movements for striking.

Then the original meaning of Taizu Longfist would be a certain form of body mechanics.

[mickey]

Greetings,


Then the original meaning of Taizu Longfist would be a certain form of body mechanics.

I say bingo to this, Cataphract.

And those mechanics may have conceptually extended itself to other ways to move to maximize power. So, "Taizu's Long Fist is First", is the framework on which the other techniques are built upon.


mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.

At this point, it may be near-impossible to identify which exact technique it could be.

Maybe it is a concept and not a technique. Maybe it can not be identified.
But, if we have not examined the historical record then how would we know?


Patting Horse was handed down from Taizu, It can defeat all maneuvers and all maneuvers can change into it. It advances to attack and dodges when retreating using the weak to overcome the strong, It is the perfection of short fist.

9802

Looking back at the thousands of pages of military manuals and history books that describe Zhao Kuangyin (Song Taizu) not to mention the huge volume of Qing Dynasty material in the Praying Mantis style, we can find an answer.

Imagine that one hundred (or one thousand troops) are lined up for their first day of training. Would they learn a concept?
I think not. If you were their teacher how would you approach teaching them?

They are lined up in formation learning empty hand techniques to fight in wars were empty hand techniques are useless. did the empty hand martial arts of the day have a method?

For all the styles that purport to teach Taizu's longfist, or any longfist style since they all come from Taizu, how is it that his technique can not be identified?

[mawali]

It would be foolish to think that an army lined up to attack an enemy using boxing methods! Absurd!
The primary weapon, whether sword, spear or any similar shaped object was the tool for destruction of the enemy. Boxing methods were similar as a extra tool to get a weapon or survival in escape/evasion and the like.

Mongols were excellent at wrestling type activities but it is their horsemanship, mobile archery (on horse) and their battlefield tactics that made them feared. The horde was a reality back then:D

[Tainan Mantis]

It would be foolish to think that an army lined up to attack an enemy using boxing methods! Absurd!

Without a doubt.
But, why do military strategist He Liangchen of the Ming say this?


The study of military arts starts with the fist followed by staff. With a thorough understanding of fist and staff the skills and drills of sword and spear become easy, therefore fist and staff are the root of all the arts. There are Song Taizu's thirty-six maneuvers of long fist, six step fist, monkey fist and Hua fist, though the names are all different they all can achieve victory.
-Zhen Ji

Record of Battle Arrays 陣紀
Probably published during the Jia Jing period (1521–1567) by He Liangchen 何良臣 (1506? - 1600)

[mickey]

Greetings,

You guys have strayed from what created a particular style to how soldiers were trained for battle. Stop dancing already! :)

mickey

[-N-]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.


I like that idea. It could just refer to "long range fighting" eg: keeping your distance from your opponent, using long arm and leg techniques


Then the original meaning of Taizu Longfist would be a certain form of body mechanics.


And those mechanics may have conceptually extended itself to other ways to move to maximize power. So, "Taizu's Long Fist is First", is the framework on which the other techniques are built upon.

That is how we take it.

Not as individual technique, but the overall method of full range of motion, long force body mechanics, and big power.

Also the idea of when attacking, the opponent never can escape the reach of your attack, and when evading, the opponent's attacks always just falls short no matter how hard he tries.

[-N-]

That is how we take it.

Not as individual technique, but the overall method of full range of motion, long force body mechanics, and big power.

Also the idea of when attacking, the opponent never can escape the reach of your attack, and when evading, the opponent's attacks always just falls short no matter how hard he tries.

That is why it is the first.

It's the basic foundation that the student needs to understand.

Learn and understand the long force, big power, full range motion.

Then expand and develop with the other methods.

[Cataphract]

Sal Canzoniere seems to disagree completely here (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?55791-Tai-Zu-Chang-Quan-info&p=974053#post974053). He says TaiZu uses short strikes. Apropos High Pat


The "signature" movement of Zhao Kuangyin was the Qi Shou Rising Hands, which in TJQ is called Ward Off or Peng.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think -N- put the appropriate polish to this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJgxJ6JrPkc


mickey

[MeiHuaBR]

Adressing the topic about mantis, could this technique in Beng Bu (0:10) be a reminiscence of the High Pat on Horse, or the only maneuver with Taizu name attached to it, from General Qi Jiguang?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnEMwT0dp7g

Modern Tong Bei also seems to have some similar techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpUsRuGG8A

[Tainan Mantis]

MeiHuaBR
I look at the techniques form the praying mantis perspective. We don't have a move called pat horse.

Praying Mantis used different terms. Grouping together the techniques of the first three masters to make longfist.