Chinese films struggling to gain profit overseas

[mdo7]

We've brought up about how Kung fu genre is dead or dying or losing it's global relevence (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?65612-Are-Chinese-Kung-Fu-movies-dead). But it goes beyond that. I found out that Chinese films overall regardless of what genre is struggling overseas when it come to profit. Despite Mainland Chinese cinema market being #2 on the global market, their domestic films are not winning international fanbases compared to the global popularity (https://reelrundown.com/movies/Korean-Wave-Why-Are-Korean-Dramas-Popular) of Korean TV dramas (http://kpopherald.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=201603181722262347775_2) (and K-pop).

I saw these 2 articles about how Chinese films are struggling overseas:

2015 article from Hollywood Reporter: Chinese Movies Still Struggle Overseas Despite Kung Fu's Global Appeal, Survey Shows (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/chinese-movies-still-struggle-overseas-786770)

Chinese Films Struggling To Find An Audience Abroad (https://thenanfang.com/chinese-films-not-finding-audience-abroad-no-one-likes-understands/)

This isn't nothing new, it has been acknowledged since 2011 that Chinese films are struggling overseas despite the appeal of Kung fu film, and the popularity of Korean pop culture.

2011 article
(http://www.china.org.cn/arts/2011-11/22/content_23979647.htm)

2013 article (http://www.chinaculture.org/info/2013-09/06/content_482006.htm)

2013 Washington Times article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/19/chinas-homegrown-hit-films-struggle-overseas/?page=all)

2015 article from South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/1808325/hit-and-miss-trouble-chinese-films-and-overseas-audiences)

Some reasons has been cited why Chinese films are struggling overseas:


"What we've found is that people tend to watch Chinese films through free channels instead of going to theaters," said Huang Huilin, director of the AICCC.

"Most of the participants watch Chinese films online. The Internet offers fertile and challenging ground for Chinese filmmakers to exploit. And also kung-fu and comedy are still the most popular types of Chinese films among overseas viewers."

According to a survey conducted by the Academy for International Communication of Chinese Culture (AICCC), 30 percent of respondents considered “the thoughts and logic of Chinese films difficult to understand”, while less than 40 percent identified with the “values” expressed in the films. A third of respondents simply said they weren’t interested in Chinese films.

The survey included 1,800 respondents from 46 different countries across Asia, the Middle East, and Europe.

One argument as to why Chinese films are struggling abroad is a lack of marketing. Less than eight percent of surveyed respondents noticed Chinese film advertisements in their home countries, while 36 percent claim they’ve never seen any marketing for Chinese films at all.

According to Sha Dan, with the China Film Archive, one solution to the marketing issue is more Chinese films that are co-produced with foreign production companies: “Commercial packaging is necessary for Chinese films if they want to be better accepted, no matter what genre it is,” said Sha.

Another issue is subtitles. 70 percent of respondents said they were unsatisfied with subtitles, which often amount to nothing more than literal translations without reflecting the scene’s context. “To have quality subtitles, one will need to understand both Chinese culture and the culture of the foreign country,” said Luo Jun, deputy head of the AICCC. “We need Chinese who know foreign cultures well and expats who have an abundant knowledge of Chinese culture.”

Feng Xiaogang, a director and actor who starred in the recent box office hit Mr Six, offers another explanation. Feng believes that Chinese films fail abroad because they are poorly made and hindered by domestic censorship regulations. Feng also questions the industry’s hiring practices: “Most of the people working in the lighting department are from Henan province,” said Feng at the recent Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC). “They are not trained professionally – they got the job simply because they happen to know someone who works on the film crew.”

I do somewhat agree about what is said above, but I could add one more reason: the global popularity of Hallyu/Korean Wave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Wave) could be overshadowing Chinese films from gaining popularity and overseas profit. It might explain why Korean films are gaining more international attention outside of Asia then any big-name Chinese films. I don't see any similar article above for Korean films, so I have to assume they're doing very well.

What do you think is causing Chinese films not to gain audiences overseas when Korean pop culture like K-pop and K-dramas are winning more global audiences?

[Jimbo]

Not mentioned is the often-nationalistic tone of many of the mainland Chinese films. Of course, propaganda-type movies are made in virtually any country where movies are made, including the U.S. and South Korea. But so many of the mainland Chinese movies have been like that.

Certainly, South Korean pop culture is the "it" thing in Asia. It's seen as more "hip" than Chinese pop culture. I would also imagine that China's restrictive film censoring of subject/content isn't helping their movies' international popularity.

[mdo7]

Not mentioned is the often-nationalistic tone of many of the mainland Chinese films. Of course, propaganda-type movies are made in virtually any country where movies are made, including the U.S. and South Korea. But so many of the mainland Chinese movies have been like that.

I don't watch enough non Kung Fu/non-period and non-action cinema from China to give my thought on this. But if what you said about Chinese films contain nationalistic tone is true. That maybe another problem why Chinese films are losing overseas international audiences. :(:mad:


Certainly, South Korean pop culture is the "it" thing in Asia. It's seen as more "hip" than Chinese pop culture. I would also imagine that China's restrictive film censoring of subject/content isn't helping their movies' international popularity.

I do agree censorship can be another turn off for Chinese films not gaining overseas audiences. But regarding what I said about Korean pop culture is overshadowing Chinese film overseas audiences it does look more evident from my observation, so it's not only subtitle issues. Yeah I read this article and this seem to confirm my observation: Poor subtitles mar prospects of Chinese cinema abroad (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/2016-03/24/content_24063729.htm)

I'm going to quote this from the article:


Different regions along the ancient Silk Road vary greatly in terms of the understanding of Chinese films, Huang says of the survey.

While Southeast Asian countries showed easier understanding of Chinese films despite language barriers due to cultural proximity, those in the Middle and Eastern Europe showed lower acceptance of the films.

Right there, at the bold/underline sentence. I emphasized that one because Korean pop culture is more well known in those area then Chinese films:


https://vimeo.com/120580311

Iranians hooked on Korean TV drama (https://www.minnpost.com/global-post/2009/12/iranians-hooked-korean-tv-drama)

Korean drama: Cultural envoy for Iran (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/11/117_55479.html)

Korean drama boom in Iran to create business opportunities (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/04/665_198617.html)

First KCON in Middle East draws thousands (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2016/03/28/59/0301000000AEN20160328004300315F.html)

2006-Korean Broadcasts to Be Exported to Eastern Europe (http://everythinglbh.com/entry_view.php?id=965)

and look what happened a few years later in Eastern Europe:

2010: Queen Seon Deok to air in Hungary (http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Society/view?articleId=83292)

2011: Korean drama conquering Eastern Europe (https://www.facebook.com/notes/cool2vu/korean-drama-conquering-europe-watch-all-the-very-best-on-wwwmaaduucom-free-on-d/181425141877683/)

Hallyu wave hits Romania (http://allaboutbestfriendsforever.blogspot.com/2011/10/hallyu-wave-hits-romania.html)

9 Korean Dramas airing in Romania (https://kdramarave.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/korean-dramas-airing-in-romania/)

It's unbelievable, Korean TV dramas including period/saeguks can win more audiences then Chinese films. Some may say it maybe a subtitle or translation issues, but from my assessment it looks like Chinese films will have hard time gaining overseas audiences because Korean stuff as you said is more "hip and trendy" then Chinese films.

There something else I noticed on the same article:


Kung fu films remained the most popular genre, but its advantage over other genres wasn't obvious, according to the report.

Chinese films can no longer purely rely on martial arts to win foreign markets, Huang says.

So this seem to implied international fans of Kung fu films and HK action cinema never branch out to other genre in Chinese cinema. Is that the reason why Chinese cinema other then action and Kung fu never got a big audiences in US and Europe?

[Jimbo]

I don't watch enough non Kung Fu/non-period and non-action cinema from China to give my thought on this. But if what you said about Chinese films contain nationalistic tone is true. That maybe another problem why Chinese films are losing audiences. :(:mad:



I do agree censorship can be another turn off for Chinese films not gaining overseas audiences. But regarding what I said about Korean pop culture is overshadowing Chinese film overseas audiences it does look more evident from my observation, so it's not only subtitle issues. Yeah I read this article and this seem to confirm my observation: Poor subtitles mar prospects of Chinese cinema abroad (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/2016-03/24/content_24063729.htm)

I'm going to quote this from the article:



Right there, at the bold/underline sentence. I emphasized that one because Korean pop culture is more well known in those area then Chinese films:


https://vimeo.com/120580311

Iranians hooked on Korean TV drama (https://www.minnpost.com/global-post/2009/12/iranians-hooked-korean-tv-drama)

Korean drama: Cultural envoy for Iran (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/11/117_55479.html)

Korean drama boom in Iran to create business opportunities (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/04/665_198617.html)

First KCON in Middle East draws thousands (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2016/03/28/59/0301000000AEN20160328004300315F.html)

2006-Korean Broadcasts to Be Exported to Eastern Europe (http://everythinglbh.com/entry_view.php?id=965)

and look what happened a few years later in Eastern Europe:

2010: Queen Seon Deok to air in Hungary (http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Society/view?articleId=83292)

2011: Korean drama conquering Eastern Europe (https://www.facebook.com/notes/cool2vu/korean-drama-conquering-europe-watch-all-the-very-best-on-wwwmaaduucom-free-on-d/181425141877683/)

Hallyu wave hits Romania (http://allaboutbestfriendsforever.blogspot.com/2011/10/hallyu-wave-hits-romania.html)

9 Korean Dramas airing in Romania (https://kdramarave.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/korean-dramas-airing-in-romania/)

It's unbelievable, Korean TV dramas including period/saeguks can win more audiences then Chinese films. Some may say it maybe a subtitle or translation issues, but from my assessment it looks like Chinese films will have hard time gaining overseas audiences because Korean stuff as you said is more "hip and trendy" then Chinese films.

There something else I noticed on the same article:



So this seem to implied international fans of Kung fu films and HK action cinema never branch out to other genre in Chinese cinema. Is that the reason why Chinese cinema other then action and Kung fu never got a big audiences in US and Europe?

To be honest, I've only watched a few non-Kung Fu specific movies from mainland China, such as 1911 and Let the Bullets Fly. I would NOT consider Let the Bullets Fly to necessarily be nationalistic (though it might be; I only watched it once), but I didn't like it, nonetheless. I didn't think it was funny at all; I didn't get the storyline, and didn't care about the characters, either. I also thought the 'funny rape scene' to be in extremely poor taste. But surprisingly (to me), Let the Bullets Fly seems very popular among many Westerners who have seen it. And I didn't like 1911, either, but for different reasons.

IMO, the older Hong Kong KF and action movies had a very different spirit and feel to them than most of the mainland Chinese KF/action movies. Kind of hard to explain in a few words. IMO, some of the older HK comedies could be quite funny, as well. They were "edgier" in spirit than mainland flicks, IMO.

For myself, I like a number of the recent Korean action/suspense/gangster films (haven't watched many of their comedies yet). I think the characters are more relatable (in a Western sense, and apparently in some Middle Eastern areas as well) than many mainland movie characters.

[mdo7]

To be honest, I've only watched a few non-Kung Fu specific movies from mainland China, such as 1911 and Let the Bullets Fly. I would NOT consider Let the Bullets Fly to necessarily be nationalistic (though it might be; I only watched it once), but I didn't like it, nonetheless. I didn't think it was funny at all; I didn't get the storyline, and didn't care about the characters, either. I also thought the 'funny rape scene' to be in extremely poor taste. But surprisingly (to me), Let the Bullets Fly seems very popular among many Westerners who have seen it. And I didn't like 1911, either, but for different reasons.

Hm, I see. So whatever you said about why you don't like non-Kung fu cinema from Mainland China would that be the same reason why many Kung fu and HK action cinema fans never branch out to other genre in Chinese films. Regarding Let the bullet fly, despite having Chow Yun Fat and you said many westerners like that film, it didn't do well in the US and I'll quote:


Action-comedy “Let the Bullets Fly,” starring Chow Yun-fat, grossed $111 million at home but $63,000 in the United States, while action-fantasy “Painted Skin: The Resurrection,” starring Donnie Yen, earned $113 million domestically but $50,400 in the U.S., according to Hollywood.com.

So yeah, so much for popularity. As I said, I'm not 100% sure why that film didn't do well despite having Chow Yun-Fat in that film.


IMO, the older Hong Kong KF and action movies had a very different spirit and feel to them than most of the mainland Chinese KF/action movies. Kind of hard to explain in a few words. IMO, some of the older HK comedies could be quite funny, as well. They were "edgier" in spirit than mainland flicks, IMO.

I guess the censorship and restriction must be not making their Martial art genre "edgier". Also could you try your best to explain what you mean by HK and Mainland Chinese having "a very different spirit and feel"?


For myself, I like a number of the recent Korean action/suspense/gangster films (haven't watched many of their comedies yet). I think the characters are more relatable (in a Western sense, and apparently in some Middle Eastern areas as well) than many mainland movie characters.

I take it you haven't watch romance like for example Love Forecast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Forecast) (you can watch it on Dramafever (https://www.dramafever.com/drama/4606/Love_Forecast/), but you'll need a subscription to watch the film) or slice of life or high school one like for example, Hot Young Bloods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Young_Bloods) (you can watch that film on Dramafever (https://www.dramafever.com/drama/4524/Hot_Young_Bloods/), again you need a subscription though). I don't know which other good Korean films out there you may like but they are diverse and they're very interesting.

Regarding the Middle East, I'm not 100% sure how many K-films has been shown, but I do know K-dramas are very popular in those area. The one that are popular in the Middle East are either idol dramas, period/saeguks, rom-coms, or serious romance genre are the one that appeal to Middle Eastern and Iranian audiences, same can be said for Eastern Europe. I'm not sure why Mainland China hasn't thought about marketing Nirvana in Fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_In_Fire) to those area if they want K-drama fans to branch out to Chinese dramas and films. It simple, market and show Chinese TV dramas (both period and rom-com) like Nirvana in Fire and if it become popular, they'll branch out into Chinese cinema. I mean it work for Korean films, K-dramas with well-known idol actors or famous Korean actors/actresses and those fan of the drama and/or Korean celebrities ending up branching out to Korean films.

[Cataphract]

I find most recent Chinese productions "hollow". Grand gestures but a lacking story. Take the Yip Man movie for example. Perfect visuals but characters are totally flat. Yip Man is Mr. Perfect, the bad guys are perfectly evil. The problem is in the screenwriting.

[mdo7]

I find most recent Chinese productions "hollow". Grand gestures but a lacking story. Take the Yip Man movie for example. Perfect visuals but characters are totally flat. Yip Man is Mr. Perfect, the bad guys are perfectly evil. The problem is in the screenwriting.

Well, thank you for your input. Other then being "hollow", are there any other reasons or problems you had with Chinese cinema that might explain why they're struggling to get overseas/international audiences?

[Jimbo]

I guess the censorship and restriction must be not making their Martial art genre "edgier". Also could you try your best to explain what you mean by HK and Mainland Chinese having "a very different spirit and feel"?

Actually, the older HK *movies* having a different spirit and feel. There seemed to be more variations of characters in the older HK films. Like I said, it's difficult to explain in a few words. Like in many mainland KF movies (as in Ip Man, for example), as Cataphract mentioned, the heroes are super-virtuous (to the point of being boring). I could say that Zhang Jin's character in Ip Man 3 was a bit different, as his being truly a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' was indeterminate. More of a 'moral middle ground depending on his circumstances' character.

In some older HK KF movies, especially many of the KF comedies, the protagonists were not heroic at all; many were lazy good-for-nothings or even obnoxious con men who end up running afoul of villains whose crimes go further than their own. If done right, this mixture created some very entertaining and exciting movies. I can't think off-hand of any mainland KF films with such colorful characters.

Even one of my very favorite mainland KF films of the '80s, South Shaolin Master, features very dry, cardboard cutout heroes and villains, IMO. The heroes and their friends are virtuous 'G-rated' characters.

[Cataphract]

Well, no. I usually buy discounted Asian cinema DVDs at variety stores, all well produced, even some fancy special editions in metal boxes, all of them dubbed. This is going on for years now.
Once I found a dirt cheap copy of House of the Flying Daggers, for example. It simply didn't resonate with me, which is often the case these days. And I really love the old stuff.

[mdo7]

Actually, the older HK *movies* having a different spirit and feel. There seemed to be more variations of characters in the older HK films. Like I said, it's difficult to explain in a few words. Like in many mainland KF movies (as in Ip Man, for example), as Cataphract mentioned, the heroes are super-virtuous (to the point of being boring). I could say that Zhang Jin's character in Ip Man 3 was a bit different, as his being truly a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' was indeterminate. More of a 'moral middle ground depending on his circumstances' character.

In some older HK KF movies, especially many of the KF comedies, the protagonists were not heroic at all; many were lazy good-for-nothings or even obnoxious con men who end up running afoul of villains whose crimes go further than their own. If done right, this mixture created some very entertaining and exciting movies. I can't think off-hand of any mainland KF films with such colorful characters.

Even one of my very favorite mainland KF films of the '80s, South Shaolin Master, features very dry, cardboard cutout heroes and villains, IMO. The heroes and their friends are virtuous 'G-rated' characters.

Ah I see where you're getting at. I think I understand where you're getting at. Thank you for clarifying that for me.


Well, no. I usually buy discounted Asian cinema DVDs at variety stores, all well produced, even some fancy special editions in metal boxes, all of them dubbed. This is going on for years now.
Once I found a dirt cheep copy of House of the Flying Daggers, for example. It simply didn't resonate with me, which is often the case these days. And I really love the old stuff.

So I take it you never watch some new release stuff coming out of China (or Hong Kong) like for example, Don't go breaking my heart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Go_Breaking_My_Heart_(film)), or it's sequel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Go_Breaking_My_Heart_2). What about Sweet Alibis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_Alibis), a film from Taiwan? What about Girls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_(2014_film)), a 2014 Chinese romantic comedy from Mainland China? You never bother watching these films?

I have one question: You don't watch film online like via streaming sites (ie: Netflix, Hulu, Dramafever, Asian Crush (https://www.asiancrush.com/))

Those films I mention above, you can watch them on Asian Crush. BTW, I watched some of them and I can't find any reason why these don't get accepted outside of China/Asia when Korean TV dramas and films get more accepted.

[Cataphract]

I try to avoid the genre of romantic comedies at all cost. Sometimes I fail. ;) A Taxing Woman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taxing_Woman) (from Japan) could be labeled as such and is quite good.
And no, maybe that's old fashioned, but I don't watch streamed movies at all

[mdo7]

I try to avoid the genre of romantic comedies at all cost. Sometimes I fail. ;) A Taxing Woman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taxing_Woman) (from Japan) could be labeled as such and is quite good.
And no, maybe that's old fashioned, but I don't watch streamed movies at all

I see so you never branch out to other genre in Chinese film and never bother watching any new or recent release coming out China, Taiwan, or Hong Kong.

[mdo7]

I've been reading up more information about Chinese films not gaining acceptance amongst US mainstream, When I read this (http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat7/sub42/item241.html#chapter-9) something doesn't make sense to me, I'm going to quote this:


Yet despite its Hollywood-style violence and an actor with international name recognition, "Let the Bullets Fly" hasn't even managed to find a distributor in the United States. When it played the Tribeca Film Festival in April, there were walkouts. "It's not going to be for everyone," director and costar Jiang Wen said in an interview afterward. "I just make movies and hope people appreciate them."

So let me get this straight, Korean TV dramas and to some extent, Korean films were able to get accepted amongst some spectrum of US mainstream. Yet Chinese films couldn't get the same type of audiences in the US that K-dramas got. So does this mean that if Let the Bullets fly (even with it's own issues) had been a Korean film, with a well-known Korean director (like let say this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Dong-hoon)), and had a well-known Korean actors/actresses like Jun Ji-Hyun, Won Bin, Lee Min Ho, Park Shin Hye, and maybe a cast of well-known K-pop idols actors/actresses in it, then would that have done better in the US? I better hope this is not the case of "if it's not Korean, or if it doesn't have my oppas in there, I will not watch it!!!"


Many of the current Chinese hits use historical reference points that elude Western audiences. "Let the Bullets Fly" is rife with allegorical meaning about standing up to corrupt leaders, while "Red Cliff" assumes a knowledge of Han dynasty politics. "It does present a little bit of a problem when a 3rd century potentate is presented casually in the way an American filmmaker would present George Washington," Magnolia Pictures President Eamonn Bowles said.

OK, so historical meaning was an issue. Yet Korean TV dramas like Dae Jang Geum/Jewel in the Palace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dae_Jang_Geum), Queen Seondeok (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Seondeok_(TV_series)), Jumong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumong_(TV_series)), Empress Ki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Ki_(TV_series)), Gyebaek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyebaek_(TV_series)), Gunman in Joseon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunman_in_Joseon), and The Moon embraces the Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Embracing_the_Sun) all got accepted and a big audiences in the US despite Korean history not being as well-known or "mainstream" compared to ancient Japanese and Chinese history. So if historical issues was an issue for Chinese films to get accepted in the US, then how did period/saeguk dramas from South Korea got accepted despite Korean history not being well-known.

There's one more thing, despite Chinese films struggling to get US audiences yet period TV dramas from Mainland China are somehow more accepted then films. I mean for example on Dramafever, several period dramas from China got a lot of positive reviews (not as high as their Korean counterparts, but still): Prince of Lan Ling (https://www.dramafever.com/drama/4336/Prince_of_Lan_Ling/), The Virtuous Queen of Han (https://www.dramafever.com/drama/4615/The_Virtuous_Queen_of_Han/), Perfect Couple (https://www.dramafever.com/drama/4507/Perfect_Couple/), and Sound of the Desert (https://www.dramafever.com/drama/4481/Sound_of_the_Desert/) all got a lot of positive reviews from US fans who are not even Asian-Americans.

So here's the question: Are Chinese TV dramas more accepted in the US, then Chinese films? I think that might be the case, I'll use UK as an example

In the UK, non-English foreign films (except French, and Bollywood) are not doing very well over there:

BBC article: How foreign language films struggle for UK success (http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-31585429)

Do we Brits no longer have an appetite for foreign-language films? (http://www.theguardian.com/culture-professionals-network/2016/feb/11/brits-appetite-subtitled-foreign-films-world-cinema)

Yet foreign TV dramas are accepted and are becoming more popular in the UK:

The growing popularity of subtitled television in the UK (http://www.comtectranslations.co.uk/culture/the-growing-popularity-of-subtitled-television-in-the-uk/)

The Returned: how British TV viewers came to lose their fear of subtitles (http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2013/jun/07/british-television-subititles)

How foreign TV drama became de rigueur with UK viewers (http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/jan/02/foreign-tv-drama-bbc-channel4-netflix)

Surprisingly, many of the people in the UK that watch these foreign TV shows/dramas don't branch out to foreign language films unlike how fans of K-dramas and K-pop do branch out to Korean films. So is it that foreign TV dramas become more accepted in the UK then foreign films? Or is there other factors that we don't know about?

[Wuxia007]

Despite most Chinese films will never explore anti-government themes, at the same time, I don't think most Chinese films convey a nationalist tone.
I think the problem is that most Chinese films are just terrible in general. Especially in their writing. Most people think China spews out Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Shaolin Soccer type films left and right. The reality is that most Chinese films are shallow chick flicks and cheap comedy-romances. You have to dig through hundreds of crap Chinese films to find the real gems from directors like Ann Hui (许鞍华), Wong Karwai (王家卫), and Zhang Yimou (张艺谋).

When I lived in China in 2011, many Chinese people told me that the current generation do not enjoy watching kung fu movies. They said it was the genre of the older generation. The only Chinese people still going to the movie theater in China (tickets are expensive there) are young dating couples with money, so obviously the Chinese film industry is going to cater to them. Unfortunately, most chick flicks or comedy-romance in general, regardless of where the film was made, hardly ever appeal to the international market. Take for example, how many American made comedy-romances do you know succeeded overseas? It's not just a problem made specific toward China's film industry. It's an internationally unmarketable genre.

Furthermore, most of the Chinese actors and actresses cast in these types of films couldn't act their way out of a paper bag. Many of them are even often times referred to as 花瓶 (Hua Ping) or "Flower Vase" because they are cast solely on their looks and not on their talent. With that said, it's because of this that it is very difficult for the Chinese film industry to develop actors with international star power which is ultimately what drives international film sales.

[mdo7]

Despite most Chinese films will never explore anti-government themes, at the same time, I don't think most Chinese films convey a nationalist tone.
I think the problem is that most Chinese films are just terrible in general. Especially in their writing. Most people think China spews out Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Shaolin Soccer type films left and right. The reality is that most Chinese films are shallow chick flicks and cheap comedy-romances. You have to dig through hundreds of crap Chinese films to find the real gems from directors like Ann Hui (许鞍华), Wong Karwai (王家卫), and Zhang Yimou (张艺谋).

As I said, I haven't watch enough non-Kung fu/non action cinema from China to give enough assessment. Also I notice a lot of Chinese films that don't get US or international release outside of China/Asia region. Heck, I can find more Korean films online then Chinese films on legal streaming sites.


When I lived in China in 2011, many Chinese people told me that the current generation do not enjoy watching kung fu movies. They said it was the genre of the older generation. The only Chinese people still going to the movie theater in China (tickets are expensive there) are young dating couples with money, so obviously the Chinese film industry is going to cater to them.

Well, that seem to be changing because the Chinese market is becoming more lucrative. I saw this on CBS News a few weeks ago (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-china-film-industry-booming/). There is talk that the Chinese market may surpass the US market, but I still remain a skeptic.


Unfortunately, most chick flicks or comedy-romance in general, regardless of where the film was made, hardly ever appeal to the international market. Take for example, how many American made comedy-romances do you know succeeded overseas? It's not just a problem made specific toward China's film industry. It's an internationally unmarketable genre.

I don't know about rom-coms, but I know several romantic melodramas that did very well on the international market:

Titanic

A Walk to Remember (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Walk_to_Remember) (that film was a sleeper hit in Asia)

The Notebook (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Notebook_(2004_film)) (I mean a lot of people around the world know this film, look how much it made at the foreign box office (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=notebook.htm))

Dear John (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dear_John_(2010_film)) (that was another hit outside of the US (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=dearjohn.htm))

Safe Haven (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_Haven_(film)) (despite not being as good as people said, it did well outside of the US (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=safehaven.htm))

The Longest Ride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Longest_Ride_(film)) (despite negative reviews, it's foreign box office (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=thelongestride.htm) help made up for the cost)

So American romantic melodrama can do well outside of the US.

Also many of the popular Korean dramas in the US and around the world are rom-coms like for example, My lovely Sam-Soon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lovely_Sam_Soon), Secret Garden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Garden_(South_Korean_TV_series)), My love from the star (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Love_from_the_Star), and She was Pretty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She_Was_Pretty) were all romantic comedy TV dramas from South Korea that became hits and become well-known to international audiences that watch Korean TV dramas. God, even Taiwanese dramas (which are all rom-coms) got a big audiences in USA and Latin/South America (http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-taiwan-latinos-20151015-story.html). So if Mainland Chinese rom-coms wasn't accepted, then how did Korean and Taiwanese rom-com TV dramas got a big audiences outside of Asia? As I said, it doesn't make sense that Chinese stuff doesn't get international acceptance yet Korean pop culture that have similar genre got accepted by international audiences outside of Asia.


Furthermore, most of the Chinese actors and actresses cast in these types of films couldn't act their way out of a paper bag. Many of them are even often times referred to as 花瓶 (Hua Ping) or "Flower Vase" because they are cast solely on their looks and not on their talent.

Same can be said about Korean entertainment industry except their stars and celebrities take their acting seriously, and somehow they won an audiences in and outside of Asia. My question is: Can Chinese TV dramas win a international audiences better then foreign films?


With that said, it's because of this that it is very difficult for the Chinese film industry to develop actors with international star power which is ultimately what drives international film sales.

Well as I said, my problem is how is it that Chinese films are struggling to get overseas audiences yet Korean pop culture was able to get a big global audiences despite both Chinese and Korean stuff and culture are similar? You're right about Chinese celebrities not having international star power compared to their Korean counterpart. I mean several Korean celebrities are getting international fans outside of Asia like Lee-Min Ho for example (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/search1/2603000000.html?cid=AEN20160511004000315). I know many other Korean celebrities that have big fanbases outside of Asia (ie: Park Shin Hye, Kwon Sang Woo, Jang Dong Geum, Lee Young Ae). Kim Soo-Hyun who is not even a household name in the US got interviewed by People Magazine (http://www.people.com/article/kim-soo-hyun-four-things-to-know). Also Song Joong Ki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Joong-ki), star of A Werewolf Boy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Werewolf_Boy) and the latest hit TV drama, Descendant of the Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descendants_of_the_Sun) got interviewed on a Korean news, and KBS World was nice and kind enough to upload the video and subtitle the interview for international fans outside of Korea and Asia:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srj3cVEWDB0

[Cataphract]

Take for example, how many American made comedy-romances do you know succeeded overseas?

Dirty Dancing, Pretty Woman, American Pie, Bridget Jones, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, Ground Hog Day, ...

[Jimbo]

When I lived in Taiwan in the mid-'80s and early '90s, many audiences there LOVED American-made romantic movies. Especially young couples. Although I was long gone from there by 1997/98, I understand that Titanic (for just one example) was a BIG hit there.

Romance movies (comedy or not) are not my type of genre. I saw TONS of Taiwanese romance films (comedies and dramas) in the early '80s, that were filmed in the late '70s/early '80s. Films starring Brigitte Lin, Ching Han, Chin Hsiang-Lin (Charles Chin), Lin Feng-Chiao (Jackie Chan's wife), Lu Hsiu-Ling, Adam Cheng, etc., etc. Because the local Vietnamese-owned theater showed weekly quadruple features of Kung Fu and other genres of HK/Taiwan films in no set order, you often had to sit through these types of films to get to the 'good stuff'. Maybe a couple of the Shaw Brothers romantic comedies were OK, IMO.

[mdo7]

Dirty Dancing, Pretty Woman, American Pie, Bridget Jones, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, Ground Hog Day, ...


When I lived in Taiwan in the mid-'80s and early '90s, many audiences there LOVED American-made romantic movies. Especially young couples. Although I was long gone from there by 1997/98, I understand that Titanic (for just one example) was a BIG hit there.


Thank you, that's enough evidence for me. Also, as I stated many Korean (and Taiwanese) TV dramas that got popular in the US and around the world are romantic comedies and they are the most popular genre (beside Saeguks, and romantic melodrama) amongst international Hallyu fans. So if Chinese rom-coms films didn't get accepted outside of Asia, then how did Korean and Taiwanese rom-com TV dramas got a big audiences outside of Asia?

[Cataphract]

Well as I said, my problem is how is it that Chinese films are struggling to get overseas audiences yet Korean pop culture was able to get a big global audiences despite both Chinese and Korean stuff and culture are similar?
All things Japanese were the latest and greatest before Korea took over. Korean urban lifestyle (Gangnam style) is presented in the western media as a capitalist Nirvana. Brands like Samsung and Hyundai elicit a grudging respect even in Germany. I guess the Koreans are particularly good at self marketing. China on the other hand has severe image problems, some of them home made. It may be unfair, but all this plays a role on the subconscious level I think.

(My bet is on Singapore for the next big thing, btw.)

[Jimbo]

It may very well be true that many Korean industries (including their entertainment industry) are very good at promoting themselves. I might make a comparison to the 1970s and 80s, when Korean martial artists were aggressively marketing their systems/schools (TKD, TSD, Hapkido, Hwarangdo, Kuk Sool Won, etc.), sometimes to a shameless degree. Such marketing strategies, especially with TKD, have been wildly successful worldwide. It's also well-known that lots of Korean-owned businesses are not shy about moving into areas far outside of an 'Asian demographic'.

I point these out because it shows a greater history of willingness of many Korean industries or businesses, culturally, to open themselves to outsiders, as opposed to staying mostly within an insular market. A couple years ago, there was a commercial on American TV promoting 'K-food', featuring several effeminate-looking Korean male models. It surprised me a bit, because I wouldn't have thought such male images meant to represent a country or a culture would fly here, at least in a 'straight' sense. Obviously, somebody thought they would.

It may also be that many Western men with a fascination for Asian women like the (cosmetic surgery-enhanced) looks of the young female Korean idols/singers/dancers/starlets, and find them 'hotter-looking'. Therefore making them want to see and know more about them.

[mdo7]

All things Japanese were the latest and greatest before Korea took over. Korean urban lifestyle (Gangnam style) is presented in the western media as a capitalist Nirvana. Brands like Samsung and Hyundai elicit a grudging respect even in Germany. I guess the Koreans are particularly good at self marketing. China on the other hand has severe image problems, some of them home made. It may be unfair, but all this plays a role on the subconscious level I think.


Well regarding Japanese stuff, yeah I will agree beside anime's quality has been on the decline (http://blog.honeyfeed.fm/editorial-tuesday-is-anime-in-decline/). Also it's been reported a few years ago how Japanese companies are not on par like they used to in the past:

A declining Japan loses its once-hopeful champions (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/a-declining-japan-loses-its-once-hopeful-champions/2012/10/27/f2d90b2e-1cea-11e2-9cd5-b55c38388962_story.html)

BBC: What happened to Japan's electronic giants? (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-21992700)

The mighty downfall of Japan's tech giants (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/12/20121218115851610878.html)

The era of Japanese consumer electronics giants is dead (http://www.cnet.com/news/the-era-of-japanese-consumer-electronics-giants-is-dead/)

Passing the torch: The gadget world's balance of power has shifted from Japan to Korea (http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/Passing-the-torch-The-gadget-world-s-balance-of-2543445.php)

A Startup Scene That's Not So Hot: Japan's Entrepreneur Shortage (http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/05/07/404376767/a-startup-scene-thats-not-so-hot-japans-entrepreneur-shortage)

It doesn't help that a lot of other aspect of Japanese pop culture aren't accessible to international audiences outside of Japan and Asia. I mean beside China (as you stated), Japan is not really good with marketing themselves (http://blog.btrax.com/en/2013/12/12/why-japanese-companies-struggle-with-marketing/). I mean there was complaint about Japan not marketing their other aspect (http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/07/03/gackt-lashes-out-at-cool-japan-almost-no-results-of-japanese-culture-exported-overseas/) of pop culture like J-pop music (http://blog.onehallyu.com/japanese-entertainment-101-accessibility/) and J-dramas (https://www.dramafever.com/forums/threads/is-it-that-hard-to-license-get-j-dramas/daffbc1f9df242498cafea60dc08e5d5/). I do agree China has a image problem (ie: human rights, and censorship) that might be preventing films from becoming a big mainstream thing, but Korea had a similar image problem like dog meat consumption and yet after K-pop and K-drama became globally popular the dog meat eating stereotype and whatever negative images of South Korea it got long time ago has been "erased" out of the mainstream.


(My bet is on Singapore for the next big thing, btw.)

I highly doubt that, Singapore hasn't have a pop culture that can impressed the world like South Korea did. I don't see Singaporean dramas being exported or getting pick up on sites like Dramafever and Viki. I'm not sure about their pop music. If a next Asian country was to replicate, it would be Taiwan. Their TV dramas are catching up in popularity on Dramafever, and Viki. Taiwanese TV dramas are also catching popularity in Latin/South America. Also Taiwan seem to show similar ambition to re-invent their pop music industry (https://english.moc.gov.tw/article/index.php?sn=3248) and on purpose to rival K-pop on a global scale (https://english.moc.gov.tw/article/index.php?sn=3249). So I think Taiwan maybe trying to revive their own cultural wave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Wave) after seeing the global influence of the Korean Wave.


It may very well be true that many Korean industries (including their entertainment industry) are very good at promoting themselves. I might make a comparison to the 1970s and 80s, when Korean martial artists were aggressively marketing their systems/schools (TKD, TSD, Hapkido, Hwarangdo, Kuk Sool Won, etc.), sometimes to a shameless degree. Such marketing strategies, especially with TKD, have been wildly successful worldwide. It's also well-known that lots of Korean-owned businesses are not shy about moving into areas far outside of an 'Asian demographic'.

I point these out because it shows a greater history of willingness of many Korean industries or businesses, culturally, to open themselves to outsiders, as opposed to staying mostly within an insular market. A couple years ago, there was a commercial on American TV promoting 'K-food', featuring several effeminate-looking Korean male models. It surprised me a bit, because I wouldn't have thought such male images meant to represent a country or a culture would fly here, at least in a 'straight' sense. Obviously, somebody thought they would.

It's true that South Korea are better at marketing and also making their pop culture more accessible then China and Japan. Regarding what you said about "a commercial on American TV promoting 'K-food', featuring several effeminate-looking Korean male models." I think they were targeting female fans of K-dramas (which was on the rise at that time), so yeah that type of marketing kind of make sense and it somehow work. I don't know what they put in K-drama to just get people addicted to it.


It may also be that many Western men with a fascination for Asian women like the (cosmetic surgery-enhanced) looks of the young female Korean idols/singers/dancers/starlets, and find them 'hotter-looking'. Therefore making them want to see and know more about them.

Actually, majority of Hallyu fans are female as according to this 2013 article (http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20110613000731):


http://res.heraldm.com/content/image/2011/06/13/20110613001005_0.jpg

By age group, 49 percent of the respondents were in their twenties, followed by those in their thirties at 18 percent, teenagers at 17 percent and those in their forties at 8 percent.

By gender, 90 percent or 10,826 respondents were female.

Also there was the issue of K-pop boy group and girl group facing double standard regarding scandals or their appearance:

Double standard between male and female K-pop groups (http://netizenbuzz.blogspot.com/2015/09/pann-double-standards-between-male-and.html)

Netizens discuss the double standards between male and female idol groups (http://www.koreaboo.com/trending/netizens-discuss-double-standards-male-female-idol-groups/)

Are male or female fans better for girl groups? (http://www.koreaboo.com/netizens/male-female-fans-better-girl-groups/)

Fans Claim These Photos PROVE Double Standards Exist Between Male And Female K-Pop Idols (http://www.koreaboo.com/trending/fans-claim-these-photos-prove-double-standards-exist-between-male-and-female-k-pop-idols/)

But we're getting a bit off topic, we still don't know why (beside a few of you) Kung fu film fans didn't branch out to other genre in Chinese cinema. Are foreign TV shows more accepted then foreign films meaning would Chinese TV dramas have been more accepted outside of Asia then Chinese films?

[Cataphract]

I've bought a copy of "Let the Bullets Fly" today for €1,-. That's why Chinese films can't gain profit. They're selling too cheap.

[mdo7]

I've bought a copy of "Let the Bullets Fly" today for €1,-. That's why Chinese films can't gain profit. They're selling too cheap.

It's probably cheap because the film retail price depreciate over time. Let the bullet fly came out in 2010 in China. So 6 years later the price would depreciate. It's the same for all movies regardless if it's domestic or foreign.

[Cataphract]

That was tongue in cheek of course. I've found it as usual in a variety store. But that rate of price decline is anything but normal.

[mdo7]

That was tongue in cheek of course. I've found it as usual in a variety store. But that rate of price decline is anything but normal.

Yeah well, can we get back on topic. Also we haven't found out why Chinese films struggle to get audiences overseas while Korean TV dramas and K-pop are doing way better at this.

[Cataphract]

I think that was rather on topic. You have a well executed movie with first class localization and the price instantly drops to an infinitesimal value. The bottom line is that the problem isn't the quality.

[mdo7]

I think that was rather on topic. You have a well executed movie with first class localization and the price instantly drops to an infinitesimal value. The bottom line is that the problem isn't the quality.

Well it still doesn't explain why international audiences can't accept Chinese films but was able to accept Korean pop culture. It still doesn't explain why Chinese films struggle overseas while Korean and Taiwanese TV dramas was able to get a bigger audiences.