10 forms are more than enough

[wiz cool c]

Forms are a great training tool, personally I love them. I think they not only categorize movements and document them, but increase many of the attributes necessary for doing Kung Fu properly. I think in recent times however teachers/schools have used them to retain students. I mean how can someone practice sixteen empty hand forms regularly? Weapon forms being the same. My personal opinion 6 empty hand forms is more than enough for a lifetime, that and maybe 4 weapon forms. Then you have basics, conditioning, sanda, partner drills, qi gong etc. To each his own of course, i just don't think it should be expected as the norm to teach and practice so many empty hand and weapon forms, and looked down upon if a schools curriculum has less. I really feel people are missing the point when it comes to form training, in our modern times.

[YouKnowWho]

You want to grow tall and you don't want to grow fat. To read 100 elementary school books, you are still an elementary school student. You will need to read books from elementary school, junior high, senior high, college, and graduate school.

If a form can only make you to grow "fat". Discard that form ASAP.

[RenDaHai]

Form is the language of the body. The body doesn't understand words and principles and can only be taught with action.

When you are reading about a subject would you limit yourself to a set number of books? You do not need to memorise many books, but its a good idea to read many, then after a while language will flow naturally.

You don't need to remember many forms or practice a large set of them regularly, but it is good to regularly try new forms, bend your body through them, see what they feel like, apply the techniques and see if they resonate with you.

If you practice the technique 'Chuan Zhang 穿掌' in many different steps, in many different combinations and situations, against many different targets, then eventually the principle of it will fuse into your muscles and bones and you don't need any of the forms any more, your body will naturally assume the shape it needs to power the technique, and your body will easily find the opportunity for its use. But if you only ever practice it one way your body will only be able to use it in that one shape, and then it will never find its opportunity for use.

Its best not to think about numbers of forms, rather be hungry for training, take every opportunity to learn something new. Only when we are learning are we fully aware, the rest of the time we are just winding down like some lifeless mechanism.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess it would depend on WHY one does martial arts.
For fighting no forms are NEEDED.
If a person is into the tradition of the art then as many forms as the art has is needed.
Personally I only do 3 empty handed forms regularly and weapons? mostly "free style" forms.

[Jimbo]

I agree that too many (or over-emphasis on) forms is not a good thing. Whether one is into MA for the fighting aspect, or even if one prefers the forms/artistic aspect. As SR said, if one's focus is on fighting, then no forms are necessary at all.

I'm not sure you that can put a specific number at how many is enough, or too many, though. It all depends on the individual, his preference/interest, and how much he/she is able to actually practice and gain an understanding of them. For some people, two or three forms are too many; for others who "collect" forms, there are never enough.

Personally, I prefer quality over quantity. For example, many people like to say that CLF has over a hundred empty-hand and weapons sets. Well, name me one person who knows, much less practices, 100+ forms. Even if you learned that many (or even less than half that) and tried to maintain them, you would suck at all of them. You would also confuse one set with another, since there are many common movements/combinations in any style's sets. Then it becomes just collecting a bunch of movements so you can say you learned the _____ form if someone asks.

That's the problem with schools that hold out more and more forms as enticements. A "more advanced form" will not make someone a "more advanced MAist". There are countless people without any forms (or who appear very mediocre at even simple forms, of which Georges St.-Pierre is but one example) whose true MA and fighting abilities are outstanding.

Forms-wise, I personally have about a dozen empty-hand CLF forms that I regularly practice, but some of those are very rare short sets. I haven't practiced any of the weapons sets in years. Occasionally, I do targeting and bag work with my long staff. I love the CLF long staff and its applications, and we trained to free-spar with padded staves, but I never particularly liked either of the two staff forms that I learned.

[wiz cool c]

For fighting no forms are NEEDED.
.

I am one of those believers that feels forms have value for self defense. Definitely not by themselves, and certainly not for sport fighting, but if trained with other important areas of kung fu training, like conditioning, two man drills, horse stance/standing post training. Back when I was doing Bagua zhang, I used a few techniques that came straight from the forms, in a couple altercations. Never even practiced those particular techniques in sparring or two man drills either.

[wiz cool c]

Its best not to think about numbers of forms, rather be hungry for training, take every opportunity to learn something new. Only when we are learning are we fully aware, the rest of the time we are just winding down like some lifeless mechanism.

I understand your point, and if it make that student happy sure no harm done. but personally, i don't want to constantly learn new forms. Boxers must constantly learn and they have what like a dozen techniques in their arsenal. also I think you can constantly learn from material you already know.

[BSL-Chris]

In BSL we have a large number of forms and your right I dont get a chance to practice them all in one sitting each day (I wish!). Each of our forms concentrates on a main theme so I make that particular session about that theme whether it be kicking, close quarter fighting etc and run through those forms and techniques.

I think alot of students now learn an array of forms and continually go through the ones that fit them, better to have a variety to pick from in my view.

[David Jamieson]

I've learned a lot of forms.

I am of the view that one form is enough really. :)

[rett2]

Learning new movement patterns is challenging, and possibly stimulates the creation of new neural pathways (maybe even new neurons). I believe this has also been shown for social dancing. So if you want the mental benefits, it may be a good idea not to just keep refining the movement systems you've already learned.

[BSL-Chris]

I've learned a lot of forms.

I am of the view that one form is enough really. :)


You mean one really really long form??? :-)

[YouKnowWho]

I am of the view that one form is enough really. :)
When I still worked form with my students (I no longer teach form). I had combined 14 forms into 1 (84 moves) so students only need to learn 1 form instead of having to learn 14 forms.

Those 14 forms are:

1. long fist Tan Tui,
2. long fist Lien Bu Chuan,
3. long fist Kung Li Chuan,
4. long fist little 5 hands,
5. long fist Mai Fu 1st road,
6. long fist Mai Fu 2nd road,
7. long fist Xi Zi Tan,
8. long fist Pao Chuan 3rd road,
9. long fist Si Lou Ben Da,
10. long fist Shao Hu Yen,
11. long fist Za Chuan 4th road,
12. long fist Tai Zhu long fist,
13, 7 star praying mantis Lian Ja,
14. 7 star praying mantis Zia Yao.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGpoR5efDeU

[David Jamieson]

Form is solo work.
When you have partner work, you can benefit from what you've learned in form.
Forms in a style are progressive and repetitive.
You'll find only one or two new techniques and more of what you've already inculcated from before as you progress through a style that uses forms to teach.

So long as you work on kicks, punches, throws and locks as well as your conditioning and supplementary skills, then form work becomes less of the cycle while devices and partner work becomes more.

For me, this equates to one form being more than enough. For me, it's an Iron Thread set. :)

[RenDaHai]

A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.

A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.

In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.

[wiz cool c]

A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.

A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.

In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.


interesting indeed

[YouKnowWho]

A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is ...

If you do partner drills training,

solo drills = partner drills without partner
form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + ...

You no longer need to learn any forms.

[RenDaHai]

Oh you don't need martial arts at all, there are far better ways of fighting.

But if you feel that draw, then you cannot get around some individual training. Many techniques will not reach their full expression with a partner. You will never strike them fully, you will need to hit things or air sometimes.

Many people think hitting air is useless. But I have enough experience with fights to know there is always a lot of hitting air. Almost every fight I have seen someone throws a punch or kick that doesn't hit its target when it clearly could have. I used to think it was bad training and inexperience. But after seeing experienced well trained people hit the air in front of someone I realised it is not experience or training but perhaps the lack of a firm will. After seeing determined people do it also I realised it cannot be this. And after doing it myself sometimes and not others I came to the conclusion that it is nature.

Consciously or not sometimes our body will not let us hit the opponent. Why this is one will have to ask a psychologist. But one thing I do know is that this behaviour cannot be changed by ordinary training. People will tell you its a bad habit, but its not a habit at all. It may seem like a terrible strategy, but instead of trying to (and believing that) you have changed your nature, I find it better to just go with it.

The greater part of fighting is MISSING not hitting. Best to train that too.

[Jimbo]

A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.

A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.

In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.

Nice post.

Although forms are not necessary to learn how to fight, I do feel that form practice is (or can be) a very beneficial aspect of training. Forms contain "idealized" movements and postures that put the body into positions that would not occur in the same manner with a partner or opponent. There is benefit to this greater extension and contraction of movement. It also develops a unique form of self-awareness and body discipline; one becomes (or strives to become) aware of the position of each body part and what each is doing, simultaneously, without getting hung up on it.

Now, someone can argue that you develop this type of awareness solely by partner training, which is true in some instances, such as in grappling. But forms practice can be another way of getting there without a partner, and I haven't found that it's ever had any negative effects on my sparring or fighting. In some ways, quite the opposite.

I am not of the belief that practicing forms somehow holds you back. It depends on how you approach it. If one's forms practice is merely going through the motions to maintain a bunch of material out of a sense of duty without digging any deeper, or to simply accumulate more and more forms so one can say, "I also have the ______ set", then it probably won't benefit you beyond perhaps satisfying an interest. Superficially maintaining a bunch of forms just to maintain them is like perpetually owing money.

There are some who believe the more forms someone knows, the better his/her Kung Fu. Then the opposite extreme are those with 'formophibia'; those who feel that forms practice is either detrimental to one's progress, or who do practice forms but seem almost ashamed of it. To each his/her own, but IME, forms are simply one aspect of training in most CMA, not to be taken out of context to either extreme. Whether one chooses to continue practicing them beyond a certain point or not is up to the individual. But certainly, 10 to 20 minutes (or more, if you like) of practicing one's forms as a *part* of training is, at the very least, more beneficial than the hours a day most people seem to spend addicted to texting, playing video games and taking 'selfies' on their iPhones.

[wiz cool c]

If you do partner drills training,

solo drills = partner drills without partner
form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + ...

You no longer need to learn any forms.

if you are training for sport fighting sure you don't need forms, but as martial artists forms are part of the art. Forms have many benefits. they are a good form of exercise, can be done without any equipment or a training partner, they teach your body all kinds of important lesson in kung fu [at least I feel they do].as for self defense benefits I also feel they have many, but not from training forms alone. they need to be done along with standing post, or horse stance training, conditioning like iron palm and arm banging etc. just my opinion.

[David Jamieson]

if you are training for sport fighting sure you don't need forms, but as martial artists forms are part of the art. Forms have many benefits. they are a good form of exercise, can be done without any equipment or a training partner, they teach your body all kinds of important lesson in kung fu [at least I feel they do].as for self defense benefits I also feel they have many, but not from training forms alone. they need to be done along with standing post, or horse stance training, conditioning like iron palm and arm banging etc. just my opinion.

Forms are a method of learning solo practice. They contain techniques, but that technique is not of any use until it is actually applied.

Reading a book and writing a book are two utterly different things.

Be careful not to ascribe too much to the mundane.

[wiz cool c]

well same can be said for shadow boxing, or any other solo training method. of course it needs to be practiced with a partner and practiced along with other methods.

[wiz cool c]

My teacher likes to mention though that the application of a specific form is flexible, and every technique does not have to be [grab guy with left hand .strike with right etc]. For example I just learned a new form which uses an open hand block/grab. Yesterday my wife and I were playing around and she comes at me with a staff, I blocked and simultaneously grabed it with the same hand[as done in that form] then I did a raising kick to her lead hand which broke that gripping hand's hold on the staff. This kick is done in many Shaolin forms where you kick your own hand. This application was a free response and made me think of what my teacher said about techniques being flexible.

[David Jamieson]

well same can be said for shadow boxing, or any other solo training method. of course it needs to be practiced with a partner and practiced along with other methods.

Progressive learning demands it.
Without the final aspect of martial art being practiced, then the martial art cannot be mastered.
being a master of an art demands that you are able to apply it. NOt to be a great coach or to produce amazing artists.
But to claim mastery is to be a master.
Doesn't mean you won't lose either.

Ali was a master of pugilism for instance. No one denies that. But he did lose fights.
All the kings of the hill get knocked down eventually and that takes away nothing from them.
But if you never go there, we'll, it's not right to say you've been.

But I digress.

:)

[wiz cool c]

Progressive learning demands it.
Without the final aspect of martial art being practiced, then the martial art cannot be mastered.
being a master of an art demands that you are able to apply it. NOt to be a great coach or to produce amazing artists.
But to claim mastery is to be a master.
Doesn't mean you won't lose either.

Ali was a master of pugilism for instance. No one denies that. But he did lose fights.
All the kings of the hill get knocked down eventually and that takes away nothing from them.
But if you never go there, we'll, it's not right to say you've been.

But I digress.

:)
dude do you talk for the sake of hearing yourself talk, or in this case write for the sake or reading your own writing. I mean what the heck are you talking about? did anyone say you do forms means you don't practice application or spar or apply what they learn in a form?

[David Jamieson]

dude do you talk for the sake of hearing yourself talk, or in this case write for the sake or reading your own writing. I mean what the heck are you talking about? did anyone say you do forms means you don't practice application or spar or apply what they learn in a form?

You stated:
if you are training for sport fighting sure you don't need forms, but as martial artists forms are part of the art. Forms have many benefits. they are a good form of exercise, can be done without any equipment or a training partner, they teach your body all kinds of important lesson in kung fu [at least I feel they do].as for self defense benefits I also feel they have many, but not from training forms alone. they need to be done along with standing post, or horse stance training, conditioning like iron palm and arm banging etc. just my opinion.

Not sure why you're upset with me here.

[Firehawk4]

Whats the difference between the long fist systems like cha chuan long fist systems and the northern Shaolin systems like the forms Su da ,chum sam , plum flower ?

[Neeros]

Oh you don't need martial arts at all, there are far better ways of fighting.

I realised it is not experience or training but perhaps the lack of a firm will. Consciously or not sometimes our body will not let us hit the opponent. Why this is one will have to ask a psychologist.

I'm having trouble with the first part of this, that there are better ways of fighting than martial arts. Martial arts are by definition the arts of war that have been through trial by fire and survived. Street fighting between people who haven't been trained can be effective, but it is primitive, much like how the martial arts that have been passed down were when they were first being established. Street fighters will find tricks and moves that work better than others and use those, then maybe refined further and further through more experience. However the martial arts that we have inherited went through the same process over many generations and have been crystallized into the best ways of moving, attacking, and defending. That just leaves it up to the individual to gain their own fighting experience.

That is quite a fascinating point though that a lack of conviction in a strike is a lack of firm will. Very interesting.


Nice post.

Although forms are not necessary to learn how to fight, I do feel that form practice is (or can be) a very beneficial aspect of training. Forms contain "idealized" movements and postures that put the body into positions that would not occur in the same manner with a partner or opponent.



Dunno bout that, I train my hardest to make it so that my techniques in partner drills and sparring are growing closer and closer to that idealization, just for the purpose of having the idealized benefits that those movements have been crystallized to contain.

[RenDaHai]

I'm having trouble with the first part of this, that there are better ways of fighting than martial arts. Martial arts are by definition the arts of war that have been through trial by fire and survived.

Right, I get what your saying sure. My meaning was more that if your only concern was being attacked in the street then learning about the local area, awareness and a handgun and group tactics may be more useful than spending that time on personal barehanded martial arts. And if your looking for trouble then certainly longer term insidious strategies I think would be better than direct confrontation. As in there are many ways to fight that are not so direct.

Slightly off topic but there is an interesting dialogue in Plato where 2 generals are discussing the merits of training 'fighting with armour on'. This is like ancient greek 'kung fu' where people trained specifically personal weapons techniques while in full armour. The first general says it is completely useless since the group strategy is all that matters, individual techniques are not useful and even detrimental. The 2nd General is arguing that it has some merits while retreating. Then they end with an anecdote about a martial arts master who made his own weapon, a staff with a scythe on the end. When his ship came in contact with the enemy ship his scythe-staff was caught in the rigging of the enemy ship and he was dragged along deck and everyone on both sides laughed at him. I digress, it just came to mind.

[Jimbo]

Right, I get what your saying sure. My meaning was more that if your only concern was being attacked in the street then learning about the local area, awareness and a handgun and group tactics may be more useful than spending that time on personal barehanded martial arts. And if your looking for trouble then certainly longer term insidious strategies I think would be better than direct confrontation. As in there are many ways to fight that are not so direct.

Good points, especially about area and situational awareness. However, barehanded martial arts do have their place, and IMO a very important one regarding self-defense. Obviously, not everyone needs empty-handed MA training to be able to defend themselves. But self-defense is not just on the street, or in situations where a gun would be legally appropriate (or even practical).

Firstly, not everyone can obtain a permit to legally carry a firearm; in fact, worldwide, including in most(?) U.S. states and especially cities within those states, it's VERY difficult for most average, law-abiding citizens.

Secondly, even if an average citizen can legally carry a gun, it's a huge commitment. Besides the necessary training and familiarity with the weapon, as well as with legal issues involving firearms, carrying, especially concealed, can be somewhat of a hassle. There must be a comfortable enough carry system that allows for quick and easy access, if needed. If you're into physical recreational activities, you have to constantly shift your attention to removing and putting the rig back on, or somehow keeping it out of the way. And in many venues, such as gov't buildings, sporting events, amusement parks, airports,etc., etc., you cannot take even a harmless miniature Swiss Army penknife with you, let alone a firearm. Attacks may also occur at inconvenient times and places, where you will be completely unarmed, or in crowded places where you wouldn't want any stray bullets.

Thirdly, many people believe a gun is a cure-all that will automatically keep them safe. Which isn't always true. Just as with barehanded MA, many people with firearms panic or freeze under pressure/lack full commitment/conviction during a real-life situation, lose physical coordination/accuracy, etc., even if they've had firearm training.

MA training which includes pressure testing, can indeed be a great supplement for training to use a handgun or other firearm. There can be a lot of carry-over benefits.

*Sorry for taking the thread further OT*, but thought I would give some of this a mention, because many people (not you, RenDaHai) say "If you want self-defense, get a gun," as if that will solve all potential problems.

[mooyingmantis]

Everything in Mantis from Beng Bu to Ba Zhou can be found summed up in the six sections of Zhai Yao ("Summary"). Every other form is anticipation or postscript.

[RenDaHai]

Everything in Mantis from Beng Bu to Ba Zhou can be found summed up in the six sections of Zhai Yao ("Summary"). Every other form is anticipation or postscript.

And every word in Shakespeare can be found in a dictionary.....

Old forms are not just catalogues of individual techniques, they are sentences even paragraphs. If you just see the individual moves then you miss most of what the form is there to teach you. Its true that some newer generation forms are just individual moves randomly put together, but old forms always have multiple levels of strategy and rythm and principle. Even if a form contains no new techniques it will say something useful. They don't all need to be mastered but its a good idea (and enjoyable) to 'read' them.



@Jimbo, Yeah, I get what your saying. I see the importance but I am also of the opinion that if you only do MA for self defence that doesn't seem quite right, its like your pushed towards it rather than drawn towards it if that makes sense.

[wiz cool c]

I always hear people say forms are nothing but a catalog of movements, designed in the past to remember movements. forms do much more than just catalog movements, don't you members agree? every time I do a form, I feel my legs being worked out by dropping down in pu bu then raising back into gong bu. If you do the forms over and over again you get a good cardio workout. most forms have some theme like working on forearm blocks, or special kicking techniques etc. so they are training some specific skill. they are good for many things. few will argue though that in our modern times forms practice is taking up an excessive amount of training time in the kung fu schools though. I mean if you have training partners available, why not use them to train with, instead of drilling forms for 95% percent of class time, when forms can be done when you are alone. but I think we know the answer to that one. has something to do with a certain Mr. Dong and a certain past revolution.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Kung fu class training times were usually 2 hours. If you add the before class training and the after class training, you are looking at a minimum of 3 hours training time. If your class is currently only one hour, you owe it to yourself to balance it out. And yes, there "used to be" more than sufficient time for form practice in Kung fu schools.

So, what it really comes down to is this (because it really has nothing to do with forms at all): How much time are you going to commit your practice? It takes Kung Fu to gain Kung Fu.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Studies have shown that we retain movements in different ways, ex:

Gross motor skills are the easiest retained and applied under pressure than fine motor skills.
If you want to retain things quickly for short term, you would do lots of repetitions over a short period of time ( 1000 reps for every day for a week for example).
If you want to retain over the long term, you would do a moderate number of reps, daily, over a longer period ( 50 reps every day for 1 month as an example).
So, gross motor skills are easily trained with the short tem method BUT finer motor skills require the long term.

As for time/length of training sessions, all that depends on the intensity of the training.
You can train for hours if you are working low intensity BUT if you push yourself hard, an hour is great for a high level athlete.
I am, of course, referring to CONSTANT training with minimal variation in intensity ( NOT HIIT since that would lessen the time for half that at best).
Again, the more intense the less you can train.
Forms fall under the category of low to moderate intensity.

[David Jamieson]

Forms fall under the category of low to moderate intensity.

Dude bro...

Northern Shaolin is neither low nor moderate in intensity. lol

It's full blast high intensity.

But yeah, I know what you mean otherwise.

North Shaolin sets is to me the most intense solo workout I've found in Kung Fu as sets go.

[YouKnowWho]

North Shaolin sets is to me the most intense solo workout I've found in Kung Fu as sets go.

During the 3 months summer vacation of my high school year, I had trained the long fist (northern Shaolin) forms

- 6 hours daily, and
- 6 days weekly.

My body was the best shape in my life at that time.

The way that we did was 2 persons in a group.

- When A did form, B watched.
- When B did form, A watched.

So 6 hours training was really 3 hours training (do your form, rest and watch, do your form, rest and watch, ...). This way you can not only did form with your body, you also see the form did by your partner. You can pick up others "flavor".

If I want to relive my live again. I may prefer to spend most of my training time in

- partner drills, and
- sparring/wrestling.

Between the partner drills and sparring/wrestling, I have created another training to fit in between. That is the "single technique testing". For example, 2 persons use "roundhouse kick" only to hit each other. If A uses roundhouse kick to hit B first, A wins that round. Test it for 15 rounds and record the result. You can replace "roundhouse kick" with

- hand on your opponent's throat,
- head lock,
- pick up your opponent's leading leg,
- foot sweep,
- ...

You can use this method to develop/test many individual techniques. There are just too many valuable training that we can spend our training time into it. IMO. we should not spend too much time in just the "solo form" training.

Too much form training may make you a good dancer. It cannot make you a good fighter.

[Jimbo]

IMO, when in a class with other people, it's generally more beneficial to spend as much time as possible in partner training/drills, etc. Take advantage of having live partners right there. Solo form work is better done outside of class on your own. During class, I feel forms should occupy a lesser amount of time, mostly while learning a form or getting corrections. Or maybe as a part of warmup or at the end of class.

Different styles' sets have different characteristics. IME:

Northern Mantis forms are like wind sprints. Shorter but faster-paced than many other styles' sets.

Long Fist sets can be very tiring if done full-out.

CLF sets, depending on the set and how you do it, can be like a 'southern Long Fist'. Not as much low-bending, jump-kicking, running steps, nor as dance-like, nor covering as much ground as northern Long Fist sets, but IMO more aggressive and a great combination of southern and northern-style characteristics.

There is nothing wrong with the grace, coordination, flavor and other benefits developed from forms practice. If they're mostly done on your own, you aren't losing any practice time with others.

I've never liked 'synchronized forms'. Beyond making it convenient to teach a form to multiple people, it has no use. IMO, once the form is learned, continuing to practice it synchronized with other people in a line is a waste of class time and even counterproductive. Because then the concern becomes synchronizing with other people's timing rather than developing your own personal stamp and focusing on what the form is supposed to be teaching you.

[rett2]

Two quotes from above


- When A did form, B watched.
- When B did form, A watched.


I've never liked 'synchronized forms'. Beyond making it convenient to teach a form to multiple people, it has no use.

Thanks to you both for making these points, which express something I've felt for a while. I believe learning form by standing in a large group and everyone is following the teacher is ineffective teaching. It may sometimes be necessary as an expedient, but it's still a very inefficient method.

I've heard people in the west defend that kind of en masse training by saying "it's traditional in China; look at how groups train in city parks". Sure, but even so it's still a bad tradition, not worth copying.

It seems to work much better to learn about 2 or 3 movements a day using the alternating method above. Teacher does the moves, students watch. Students do the moves, teacher watches. Do that tiny bit of the form for a couple of hours. Let the form grow longer and longer each day, doing it intensively till the form is all learned. If a form is really bloated in length (longer than 2 minutes to do) you might need to start from one of the section breaks along the way to get enough reps of the new part.

Just doing form practice solo isn't so good either. At least once in a while you need to do "A watches B, B watches A" with someone else to keep discovering new aspects.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude bro...

Northern Shaolin is neither low nor moderate in intensity. lol

It's full blast high intensity.

But yeah, I know what you mean otherwise.

North Shaolin sets is to me the most intense solo workout I've found in Kung Fu as sets go.

My bad, should have specified forms in general because, of course, there are exceptions to the rule.