Master Health Condition

[mig]

Isn't a master someone who is in shape until the end of his days. Some will get sick and that I understand however many that I see as they grow older, they are fat or big belly, slow and have hard time walking. Is that a Master for some years until they reach 40 or 50 years old?

[-N-]

http://youtu.be/M1rh_Z1xeV0

[mooyingmantis]

Masters come in all shapes and sizes. Master Fan Xu Dong of Seven Star Mantis fame weighed nearly 300 lbs., no lightweight. Don't judge people by the outward appearance.

[David Jamieson]

Mastering weight loss and fitness isn't the same as mastering a pugilistic art or weapons use.

There's no guarantee for how long you'll be here in this world.
There's no guarantee that you don't have poor genetics and will suffer disease early in life.

But understanding an art form is another thing entirely.

Make the ego small and anyone can teach you a lot. :)

[Jimbo]

Isn't a master someone who is in shape until the end of his days. Some will get sick and that I understand however many that I see as they grow older, they are fat or big belly, slow and have hard time walking. Is that a Master for some years until they reach 40 or 50 years old?

It depends.

People's bodies and metabolisms are different. And lifestyles. I've seen MANY masters in CMA who have trim-looking physiques (or at least aren't 'fat') but are heavy smokers. And others who are heavy drinkers, which might be amusing in a drunken master movie, but not so much in real life. Can anyone realistically believe that doesn't negatively affect them in spite of their outward appearances? And there are others who are overweight yet live to an old age relatively healthy and spry. I've seen some 'fat-looking' masters who could still move very well.

Yes, there are some MAists who, for whatever reasons, stop training through simple laziness and become pear-shaped and slow. But another reason for that could be the effects of injuries that prevents them from training to their former capabilities. In many instances, that can severely affect one's enthusiasm for practicing at all.

While I personally prefer to be in good shape as I get older, keep in mind that it takes far more discipline than when you're in your teens, 20s and 30s.

[Scott R. Brown]

This topic comes up every now and then. There seems to be a sense by some martial artists that you have to be in top shape in order to train others in the martial arts. Indeed I felt the same way when I was younger.

Eventually I realized there was a well known female gymnastics coach named Bela Karolyi, a man, who trained many world champion female gymnasts and he never trained on any of the apparatus he trains the women on. He is an old man who is completely out of shape, yet he is a master coach who trains masters of gymnastics.

Being in condition is nice, but it is not necessary in order to master the topic.

[SteveLau]

Sure, a master can be in shape until the end of his days. But there are many factors that will affect his health as mentioned by other members. Also, when a master reaches 40 to 50 years old, the periodic change of his body kicks in. Hormone secretion will be different. He is going into his next life cycle. Of course, his overall health level will drop significantly, and so then will his MA skill.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[David Jamieson]

Sure, a master can be in shape until the end of his days. But there are many factors that will affect his health as mentioned by other members. Also, when a master reaches 40 to 50 years old, the periodic change of his body kicks in. Hormone secretion will be different. He is going into his next life cycle. Of course, his overall health level will drop significantly, and so then will his MA skill.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

when you get older, your wisdom should be your weapon.

Tricks and treachery go a long way in that regard.

[mooyingmantis]

It takes far greater discipline to pick my nearing 60, diabetes-ridden, post heart surgery ass off the couch to train than it did to my young, healthy 20 something body. So, I don't judge myself by what I see in the mirror. I judge myself by the fact that I still train while others are judging from the couch.

[SteveLau]

when you get older, your wisdom should be your weapon.




Yep, sometimes we perform better than our young self because we are equipped with better knowledge. We train wiser, fight wiser, and live wiser. That is one big reason why our quality of life gets better than that of our early years.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[mig]

Yep, sometimes we perform better than our young self because we are equipped with better knowledge. We train wiser, fight wiser, and live wiser. That is one big reason why our quality of life gets better than that of our early years.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

I guess I was not clear in my posting, what I noticed is that many so called "masters" they are in pretty bad shape starting in their 50s. I thought someone who pretend or think is a master, regardless his pugilistic or fighting skills, they end up in good health as they follow cultivating a balanced life to the end of their cycle.

[David Jamieson]

I guess I was not clear in my posting, what I noticed is that many so called "masters" they are in pretty bad shape starting in their 50s. I thought someone who pretend or think is a master, regardless his pugilistic or fighting skills, they end up in good health as they follow cultivating a balanced life to the end of their cycle.

Maybe you have expectations that are not reasonable when compared to the reality?

Old men typically aren't in good shape per se. Such is life, time passes, we get older, our bodies fail and then we die. Regardless of whatever training we do or whatever food we eat etc. This doesn't mean there is nothing on offer.
I personally know of several masters of regard that had great skill that died in their mid 60s.

We are, none of us immune to all sorts of debilitating disease and the transformation through time of our bodies.
Live an easier life if you want to live longer. :) remove the stresses.

[Jimbo]

I guess I was not clear in my posting, what I noticed is that many so called "masters" they are in pretty bad shape starting in their 50s. I thought someone who pretend or think is a master, regardless his pugilistic or fighting skills, they end up in good health as they follow cultivating a balanced life to the end of their cycle.

The fact is, some people can do all the right things and still die young from health issues. How many masters (or at least experts) who were in great shape, lived cleanly, and practiced qigong daily have passed away young, like in their 50s or 60s (or younger)? Then there are those who do all the 'wrong things', i.e., smoking; following a diet high in fat, sodium, and sugars; excessive drinking; minimal to no exercise, etc., with NO martial arts or qigong practice, who live long lives with seemingly few health problems. Genetics can and does play a big role, too.

[mig]

The fact is, some people can do all the right things and still die young from health issues. How many masters (or at least experts) who were in great shape, lived cleanly, and practiced qigong daily have passed away young, like in their 50s or 60s (or younger)? Then there are those who do all the 'wrong things', i.e., smoking; following a diet high in fat, sodium, and sugars; excessive drinking; minimal to no exercise, etc., with NO martial arts or qigong practice, who live long lives with seemingly few health problems. Genetics can and does play a big role, too.

Isn't that generalization? I went to the hospital the other day and noticed no vacancies and there still nurses shortage here in Los Angeles, CA, so people get sick not because they led a healthy lifestyle. I have seen many people making the wrong choices, including myself, and indeed they died sooner than expected. I was talking about martial arts masters who end up in bad shape, crippled or big belly not because of genetics but because they don't follow a healthy lifestyle. I don't have stats but the fact that if you care about yourself you have more chances to live longer and in better shape. Common sense, no? It is true there is no guarantee and there are always exceptions. For future generations, they need to learn the cycle of human condition, I guess.

[SteveLau]

[QUOTE=mig;. For future generations, they need to learn the cycle of human condition, I guess.[/QUOTE]


Yep. I have more health problems than in my early years. And I now put more effort to keep myself healthy. Eventually, we cannot keep up, and our health will drop. As healthcare expert said, "We will lose one or both capabilities eventually as we grow old - generation of income and taking care of our daily living."




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Neeros]

If I want to learn combat, I would go to a master that is a very good fighter.

If I want to learn chi kung, I would go to a master that is very healthy and vital.

Ideally both combined into one. :)

[David Jamieson]

Isn't that generalization? I went to the hospital the other day and noticed no vacancies and there still nurses shortage here in Los Angeles, CA, so people get sick not because they led a healthy lifestyle. I have seen many people making the wrong choices, including myself, and indeed they died sooner than expected. I was talking about martial arts masters who end up in bad shape, crippled or big belly not because of genetics but because they don't follow a healthy lifestyle. I don't have stats but the fact that if you care about yourself you have more chances to live longer and in better shape. Common sense, no? It is true there is no guarantee and there are always exceptions. For future generations, they need to learn the cycle of human condition, I guess.

In the USA, people don't go to the hospital for treatment because they can't afford to.
Even with the new healthcare act.

Getting hospital or healthcare treatment in the USA is often cost prohibitive.

Kind of counter intuitive to being one of the most wealthy countries on the planet too I'd say.

But I'm Canadian. We figured it out. :D

Healthy lifestyle and punching people in the face or getting kicked in the guts don't seem to go together....

maybe you need a living arts master? Like a yoga guy or qigong guy? They live long times!

Great fighters usually have their lives cut short from some brain disease from too many concussions or, they don't develop other marketable skills and wallow with age along with their ever deteriorating fight skills.

Sounds crappy, but there you have it. You want to live longer? Stop fighting. Do more living arts and less martial arts. :) And don't worry! Fighting is only a small part of having Kung Fu!

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a price your body pays for fighting prowess.
That is and always will be the case.
Sure there can be SOME exceptions to the rule BUT you don't base things on the minority or the exceptions to the rules.
reality is that fighting ability comes from fighting and fighting hurts and leaves scars of ALL types.

[MightyB]

I guess I was not clear in my posting, what I noticed is that many so called "masters" they are in pretty bad shape starting in their 50s. I thought someone who pretend or think is a master, regardless his pugilistic or fighting skills, they end up in good health as they follow cultivating a balanced life to the end of their cycle.

A martial arts master should look like someone who enjoys doing martial arts. An 80 year old won't be as in shape as a 20 year old, but if he or she is a kung fu master, they should invoke the "d@mn you're 80? fer realz?" response from you.

[David Jamieson]

9932

See that outta shape guy with the glasses next to Sugar Ray? that's his trainer and coach. You know who else he trained and coached? Muhammad Ali.

Don't kid yourself with false ideals.

Training doesn't come from supermen, it comes from men who know how to help you. Sometimes from women.

[Jimbo]

Obviously, if you take better care of yourself, you have a greater chance of aging gracefully. But one cannot rule out the role that genetics and other factors can play in it as well. I'm 53, but am usually mistaken for around mid-30s; in my 30s, I was still often mistaken for a minor and being carded. Is that because I've practiced MA regularly for 40 years? Or genetics? Many other people have trained just as long and look every bit their ages.

I do like to keep in shape, though I long ago stopped being OCD about it. Someone with a long-term gym membership who uses it might grow old looking better than many MAists. Are they better masters because of it?

When I was young I used to be judgmental of others. If someone had a long-term injury that somehow affected their ability to train, I thought it was a cop-out. I thought they were making excuses for being lazy. Sure my body had wear and tear from years of training, but it always healed up or it wasn't as noticeable. Until I had a non-MA injury that became chronic. Most of the time other people won't notice, but I do. It does affect how you train. *It taught me to be far less judgmental of others.*

[MightyB]

A master will be in great shape relative to their age. If not, seek training elsewhere.

[mickey]

Greetings,

MightyB and mig: You have defined what makes a master for yourselves. Just find the person who meets your expectations and learn.

There will always be those who meet your expectations and there will always be those who don't. It all comes down to what a person is looking for.

Last year, I put up a thread about someone who passed away. Well, he was heavyset, fast, and could really move his body. He did not have that "look". And yes, he was a Master.

mickey

[MightyB]

Nope, beings that I'm always right - A Kung Fu Master must be in shape relative to their age. End of story. I'm right, you are wrong.

[MightyB]

I guess I was not clear in my posting, what I noticed is that many so called "masters" they are in pretty bad shape starting in their 50s. I thought someone who pretend or think is a master, regardless his pugilistic or fighting skills, they end up in good health as they follow cultivating a balanced life to the end of their cycle.

In the golden era of American Kung Fu (which ended in the late 90s) - there were no out of shape masters, 'cuz they were all legit old skool masters. Even now, there are no fatties (relative to their age) in my rolodex of who's who in American Kung Fu.

The key phrase is "relative to their age". Someone can be a tad overweight and still move. Anyone who practices what they preach and consistently gets out on the floor to instruct students will be in relatively good shape.

[mickey]

Greetings

"relatively good shape" I can accept because it allows room for those with injury. If they are injury free, I would have high expectations of them as well.

On a different note, we are actually on the verge of a Golden Era of kung fu in this country. We are slowly moving away from the phase of transmission to one of testing and research, looking seriously at what works and what does not. And we are beginning to look at what constitutes a real training program, one that gives results. This is a great time.

mickey

[Brian Kennedy]

I would add, in a broader context, a “master” in a Chinese or Taiwanese setting is a social status. It generally means you have a school, students, you have been around for a while, you are friends with other older teachers, you sit on various martial arts committees, maybe you published a book or DVDs and other people address you with honorific titles. That is what makes a master in a Chinese society. Whether you are in good physical shape or not is completely irrelevant.

Take care,
Brian

[MightyB]

I would add, in a broader context, a “master” in a Chinese or Taiwanese setting is a social status. It generally means you have a school, students, you have been around for a while, you are friends with other older teachers, you sit on various martial arts committees, maybe you published a book or DVDs and other people address you with honorific titles. That is what makes a master in a Chinese society. Whether you are in good physical shape or not is completely irrelevant.

Take care,
Brian

Are you talking about pre or post retirement? (referring to the formal ceremony) Because, if they're on the floor, they should be in reasonable shape for their age because they will have to demonstrate good kung fu for teaching purposes. If not - well some other masters may say their (meaning the lazy masters) kung fu is "Lop Sop".

[Brian Kennedy]

I am talking about both pre and post retirement. Note that I am not talking about what "should be", I am talking about "what is" (at least as far as I saw in Taiwan). I am a personal trainer and I would guess if you did the standard set of physical assessments to most Taiwanese masters-----the results would be average or maybe slightly below. Part of the problem is, by the time you are routinely referred to as "master", you are most likely in your late 40s or beyond.

take care,
Brian

[Jimbo]

I saw that in Taiwan as well, with the older masters. A small few were in very good shape for their ages, but most were not. This was true whether they were native Taiwanese or transplanted Mainland masters.

And as far as getting on the floor and teaching, most of the older masters I saw, while present during their classes, left the teaching duties almost exclusively to their senior (or more senior than the junior) students. Sometimes the old masters sat and watched the students practicing, and sometimes barely even watched. They weren't basket cases, but most looked long out of shape and practice. It's certainly a cultural and maybe even a generational thing.

As I mentioned, some old masters were in great shape for their ages. And I'd also seen a couple of old guys who were possibly former Beijing opera performers or acrobats, one balancing on one foot and performing 'foot towards the sky' (chao tian deng) with his foot over his head, and the other performing basic acrobatic stunts well into his 70s.

But most weren't in good shape for their ages. Especially most of the 'internal-style' masters I saw.

[mickey]

Greetings,

This thread, if fueled, will become the next "Is Shaolin Do for Real" thread. mig and Mighty B have set the bar of excellence for themselves. I hope they achieve it. I root for them and all others like them. That is what kung fu is about: set a goal and work towards attaining it.

mickey

[MightyB]

Greetings,

This thread, if fueled, will become the next "Is Shaolin Do for Real" thread. mig and Mighty B have set the bar of excellence for themselves. I hope they achieve it. I root for them and all others like them. That is what kung fu is about: set a goal and work towards attaining it.

mickey

I didn't set the bar, I'm just following the example that was set before me. The majority of people I call Sifu, Sensei or Coach are over the age of 60. All of them are in great shape for their ages. One of my favorite Judo coaches is pushing 80 :eek: and he still is a hands-on coach.

[Jimbo]

I didn't set the bar, I'm just following the example that was set before me. The majority of people I call Sifu, Sensei or Coach are over the age of 60. All of them are in great shape for their ages. One of my favorite Judo coaches is pushing 80 :eek: and he still is a hands-on coach.

MightyB,

I do agree with you, in that all of my own teachers were or are in great shape for their ages, or simply were in great shape (one of my Mantis teachers in Taiwan died in a motorcycle accident in his late 30s and thus never became old or out of shape).

IMO, even if injured, if you can still move well enough, are determined and never lose your passion for KF, you can still be in great shape for your age, and even better shape than most younger people. The mind and the will are essential in KF. After my injury many years ago, I gradually gained 30 pounds; I never completely stopped practicing, but my mind created some excuses that I could no longer do certain things. Until 2 years ago when I got fed up with it. I made it about all that I CAN do. Needless to say, I've lost over 30 pounds back down to my peak weight of 160. Proper eating habits and more exercise again, like before. Some aspects of my KF have even improved now over my pre-injury level. As you get older and sometimes **** happens, the mind and the will become even more important. That to me is one of the true tests of dedication and love for KF.

Perhaps some people who let themselves go simply lose their passion for KF (or whatever type of MA they practice or teach). Maybe they just get tired of it, if teaching MA is all they've done all of their lives.

[mickey]

I didn't set the bar, I'm just following the example that was set before me.

You HAVE set the bar for yourself by making the CHOICE to follow the examples set before you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I support it wholeheartedly. I never saw TCMA as a young man's art. I saw it as a lifelong pursuit. Being fit to do what you love to do is nothing to debate about. That being said, there are those who cannot pursue what they love and still try to derive some satisfaction from practice, even though they may no longer have that look. We could never know their story at first glance, unless it was glaringly obvious.

mickey

[Jimbo]

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, there have been many martial artists who were avid smokers. I know it was common in the past; it was common when I was in Taiwan. It wasn't uncommon to see CMA teachers teaching with a cigarette dangling from their mouths, or some students taking a break during class to take a smoke. In the '70s, Japan's elite JKA Shotokan karate team were all heavy smokers. A very high percentage of the old-school KF movie people, including Jackie Chan, smoked (though I heard that JC eventually quit). Even in the 1960s American sport karate scene, it was common for competitors to fight a match, go out and smoke, then come back in. It was probably also normal in the European MA scene as well.

Smoking is probably still common among MAists/masters, especially in Asian countries. It seems counterintuitive that often those who teach MA, qigong and other forms of exercise, at least partially (and often primarily) to promote health and physical fitness, and who train their bodies and minds for MA mastery, would so readily damage themselves (and others through secondhand smoke) by partaking in smoking. But until fairly recent decades, in China and in some other countries, smoking was believed to be good for you. There was little to no awareness or concern about its harmful effects.

[mig]

Greetings,

This thread, if fueled, will become the next "Is Shaolin Do for Real" thread. mig and Mighty B have set the bar of excellence for themselves. I hope they achieve it. I root for them and all others like them. That is what kung fu is about: set a goal and work towards attaining it.

mickey

Funny how everybody interpreted a simple question about Masters in good healthy conditions as they advance in age, meaning past 50 or 60s. No, it is not shao lin dao it is just a simple question. Most of the responses emphasized about fighting, like to be a Master you need to fight. In that case any street fighter in several generations could be a master too. The point here is that many claim as Masters in TCMA and I don't understand why they end in bad shape. I understand genetics or whatever other reason but don't you learn better that you need to care of yourself? How come some good masters who lived longer were involved in acupuncture or bone setting or some sort of traditional medicine? Many masters don't even call themselves, sifu or shifu, they are only practitioners and they are indeed, Masters.

[Jimbo]

Funny how everybody interpreted a simple question about Masters in good healthy conditions as they advance in age, meaning past 50 or 60s. No, it is not shao lin dao it is just a simple question. Most of the responses emphasized about fighting, like to be a Master you need to fight. In that case any street fighter in several generations could be a master too. The point here is that many claim as Masters in TCMA and I don't understand why they end in bad shape. I understand genetics or whatever other reason but don't you learn better that you need to care of yourself? How come some good masters who lived longer were involved in acupuncture or bone setting or some sort of traditional medicine? Many masters don't even call themselves, sifu or shifu, they are only practitioners and they are indeed, Masters.

As we are discussing MARTIAL arts, so it only seems natural that fighting (or sparring) is brought into it. Nobody is saying that a master has to have been a professional fighter, or that he has to fight all the time into old age. At some point in a MAist's training, at least during youth into young adulthood in a lifelong practitioner, testing one's self, i.e., sparring against many different types of uncooperative opponents, does matter, if one's art is designed and taught as a fighting method, and they are going to teach it as such. I get the whole thing about good boxing trainers who never fought, etc., but that is different from one who is supposed to be a CMA 'master' (IMO). Otherwise they are a coach.

As to why some TCMA masters are out of shape, you've already gotten some valid answers to your question as to why, outside of genetics, illness, injury, etc., but apparently not the answers you were looking for.