Adducting the Knees in YJKM

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I wanted to start a discussion on the importance or lack of it in training Adduction of the legs/knees in the SNT stance.
Is this an important thing to train and if so why? If not why not?
How does one train adduction?
What is the focus of the stance for training? ie: forming a Triangle or Pyramid and what lines does one try to direct force towards?
Are there any specific exercises or props one can use to train this principle?
What benefits, if any, does training to adduct provide for actual usage in combat?

With the various lineages and approaches on the forum I would be interested in getting other viewpoints on this subject.

[Marnetmar]

I don't really buy into the concept of adducting the knees so much as them coming in naturally with the direction of the toes. You shouldn't try to force them in so much as lower yourself in the stance, which is important because it provides for a proper structure of head over hips over feet, which makes it so that you can't be uprooted or pushed back as easily.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I agree one should not force the position.
The YJKM is not a natural stance so it must be trained in order to allow one to pose it without straining.
However, I guess what I am getting at is how do you train to be able to resist incoming force without adducting the knees/legs?
How do you train to redirect the incoming force? Or do you?

[wckf92]

Hello,

I agree one should not force the position.
The YJKM is not a natural stance so it must be trained in order to allow one to pose it without straining.
However, I guess what I am getting at is how do you train to be able to resist incoming force without adducting the knees/legs?
How do you train to redirect the incoming force? Or do you?

I do not 'adduct' the knees so can't really add much to this discussion. :(
We use a four phase opening which puts ones horse width in a natural alignment (IMO) and basically creates a pyramid base under ones COG.
Dealing with force? Footwork, turning, etc.

[anerlich]

I do not 'adduct' the knees so can't really add much to this discussion. :(
We use a four phase opening which puts ones horse width in a natural alignment (IMO) and basically creates a pyramid base under ones COG.
Dealing with force? Footwork, turning, etc.

My lineage uses a stance with feet parallel. The knees come in slightly, but they are not pulled or forced in. The stance should be reasonably comfortable, hanging together on the tendons rather than flexed muscles, though complete relaxation is of course impossible.

I quite often see beginners trying to force the stance really low or really wide in the form, which IMO is a mistake - "make your everyday stance your fighting stance, and your fighting stance your everyday stance" - M. Mushashi (it might have been the other way around) :o

I'm using spine and hip alignment, - or the seven bows, if that's what floats your boat - to deal with incoming force in this stance.

TBH, if I'm trying to absorb or deliver significant force, I'll be doing it from a 50/50 front stance, not YGKYM. A bit of wrestling work will be good as anything to help you learn to absorb or apply force IMO.

[zuti car]

About absorbing force , there are two ways of training , active and passive . Passive includes some two man drills and work with equipment , active is simple chi sao with full force applied , real punches ...

[YouKnowWho]

actual usage in combat ...
The inward stance can be used to

- bite your instep on your opponent's ankle,
- use your shin to press on the side of his leg, and
- take him down (or just sense where your opponent's leading leg is).

In WC, it's used mainly to "build leg bridge - sense and control your opponent's leading leg".

The more that your toes can bend inward, and the closer that your knee can drop to the ground, the more "biting power" that your leg can develop.

9900


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-IaaFcHByQ

[Sihing73]

I do not 'adduct' the knees so can't really add much to this discussion. :(
We use a four phase opening which puts ones horse width in a natural alignment (IMO) and basically creates a pyramid base under ones COG.
Dealing with force? Footwork, turning, etc.

I would be interested in learning more about this "four phase opening"

In my lineage we open by placing the toes out, then heels then toes and heels again.
So, it kind of is like 4 phases or positions.
The ending is with the feet about shoulder width apart and the knees drawn in slightly.
You should be sitting and relaxed as much as possible but, for training there should be some tension in the upper inner thighs to strengthen the stance.
May not be explaining this right but the idea is not to have tension as much as possible but when one has incoming force you try to direct it downward and it is the "adduction" of the knees which allows you to project the force into the ground. Without at least some tension the stance will fail and you have no stability. Again, not sure if this is being explained clearly.

I am more curious about how others train students to deal with incoming force. Rooting if you will.

[wckf92]

My lineage uses a stance with feet parallel. The knees come in slightly, but they are not pulled or forced in. The stance should be reasonably comfortable, hanging together on the tendons rather than flexed muscles, though complete relaxation is of course impossible.

I quite often see beginners trying to force the stance really low or really wide in the form, which IMO is a mistake - "make your everyday stance your fighting stance, and your fighting stance your everyday stance" - M. Mushashi (it might have been the other way around) :o

I'm using spine and hip alignment, - or the seven bows, if that's what floats your boat - to deal with incoming force in this stance.

TBH, if I'm trying to absorb or deliver significant force, I'll be doing it from a 50/50 front stance, not YGKYM. A bit of wrestling work will be good as anything to help you learn to absorb or apply force IMO.


Agree on the parallel feet...and about the Musashi bit! Good stuff.

[wckf92]

I would be interested in learning more about this "four phase opening"

In my lineage we open by placing the toes out, then heels then toes and heels again.
So, it kind of is like 4 phases or positions.
The ending is with the feet about shoulder width apart and the knees drawn in slightly.
You should be sitting and relaxed as much as possible but, for training there should be some tension in the upper inner thighs to strengthen the stance.
May not be explaining this right but the idea is not to have tension as much as possible but when one has incoming force you try to direct it downward and it is the "adduction" of the knees which allows you to project the force into the ground. Without at least some tension the stance will fail and you have no stability. Again, not sure if this is being explained clearly.

I am more curious about how others train students to deal with incoming force. Rooting if you will.

Hi Dave. Yes, it is as you stated. 4 phases or positions as the horse is built from a feet together start.

[anerlich]

Hi Dave. Yes, it is as you stated. 4 phases or positions as the horse is built from a feet together start.

I don't use that opening. I use two circling steps to open the stance for the form.

[wckf92]

I don't use that opening. I use two circling steps to open the stance for the form.

Hi Anerlich. Not to derail Dave's post but do you use that opening sequence for all three forms? And, do your feet lift up off the ground to do your circling steps? Or do they lightly scrape or float over the floor as they travel? Thx.

[anerlich]

Hi Anerlich. Not to derail Dave's post but do you use that opening sequence for all three forms? And, do your feet lift up off the ground to do your circling steps? Or do they lightly scrape or float over the floor as they travel? Thx.

Yes, all 3 forms.

"Lightly float" is probably the best description. about a millimetre off the ground. With occasional very light scraping.

[Sihing73]

Interesting, I was taught the 4 part method for the SNT and CK and the circling step for the BJ.

[wckf92]

Interesting, I was taught the 4 part method for the SNT and CK and the circling step for the BJ.

4 part method for all three...but BJ circle steps as well, just later in that form.

[anerlich]

4 part method for all three...but BJ circle steps as well, just later in that form.

Circle steps appear elsewhere in my CK and BJ also. Do not use the 4 part method anywhere.

[wckf92]

I am more curious about how others train students to deal with incoming force. Rooting if you will.

Dave, can you provide an example to your question to further the discussion? Thx man.

[Sihing73]

Dave, can you provide an example to your question to further the discussion? Thx man.

Well, let's consider someone standing in YJKM and have a partner press against their chest or arms.
Play around with differing weight placement to determine balance points.
For example if rear weighted on the heel can you direct the incoming force downwards and if so how do you do it?
Do you sink and if so do you lean backwards or do you have to make a conscious effort to lean forward to compensate for the incoming force?
Do this with weight placement on the heels and balls as well.

Now to my thinking and approach you should have your weight about center of foot, actually slightly below the center where the ankle connects.
You should be sinking or sitting with feet about shoulder width apart and knees turned in slightly. No need to exaggerate the turn of the knees but having some inward turn is, imo, important to allow the formation of a triangle for the force.

When the force is applied you should try to direct it downward and slightly forward into the ground using the knees.
If you simply try to direct the force straight down into the ground what happens?
If you try to direct the incoming force down and slightly forward into the ground, think of a three legged stool with the legs two of the three legs and the force vector (egads a Hendrik word :eek: ) a virtual third leg, what happens?

Just off the top of my head early this morning but hope it helps to get the idea across.
Also this is for training purposes but the skills developed can carry over to combat, imho.

[zuti car]

Adducting the knees is not important , it is enough that knees are slightly bent , also stance can be shoulder wide or wider but even if it is narrower than shoulders it is not so important . What is important is position of what Chinese call "kwa" . Proper position will allow absorption of the force . If the knees are slightly bent and spine and pelvic area are in proper alignment weight will naturally "fall" on the balls of the feet.

[LFJ]

...weight will naturally "fall" on the balls of the feet.

Natural stance for humans is weighted over mid-foot. Sinking the stance and tilting the pelvis while keeping the spine in vertical alignment won't change that. You must be pressing your hips forward and shifting your center of gravity over the balls of your feet.

[wckf92]

Well, let's consider someone standing in YJKM and have a partner press against their chest or arms.
Play around with differing weight placement to determine balance points.
For example if rear weighted on the heel can you direct the incoming force downwards and if so how do you do it?
Do you sink and if so do you lean backwards or do you have to make a conscious effort to lean forward to compensate for the incoming force?
Do this with weight placement on the heels and balls as well.

Now to my thinking and approach you should have your weight about center of foot, actually slightly below the center where the ankle connects.
You should be sinking or sitting with feet about shoulder width apart and knees turned in slightly. No need to exaggerate the turn of the knees but having some inward turn is, imo, important to allow the formation of a triangle for the force.

When the force is applied you should try to direct it downward and slightly forward into the ground using the knees.
If you simply try to direct the force straight down into the ground what happens?
If you try to direct the incoming force down and slightly forward into the ground, think of a three legged stool with the legs two of the three legs and the force vector (egads a Hendrik word :eek: ) a virtual third leg, what happens?

Just off the top of my head early this morning but hope it helps to get the idea across.
Also this is for training purposes but the skills developed can carry over to combat, imho.

I'm not a fan of "pressing" or "pushing" against a students chest or arms while in YJKYM. Personally, I don't see the relevance. I use more of a ballistic approach. Slowly pushing or pressing bares little semblance to what it will be like in high stress situations / real life. etc.

[zuti car]

Natural stance for humans is weighted over mid-foot. Sinking the stance and tilting the pelvis while keeping the spine in vertical alignment won't change that. You must be pressing your hips forward and shifting your center of gravity over the balls of your feet.

There are more than one type of "structure" in wing chun . One more thing , people invented different kind of stances because natural stance and weight distribution are not the best solutions for fighting

[Sihing73]

I'm not a fan of "pressing" or "pushing" against a students chest or arms while in YJKYM. Personally, I don't see the relevance. I use more of a ballistic approach. Slowly pushing or pressing bares little semblance to what it will be like in high stress situations / real life. etc.

Again, this is only for training and represents a starting point.

Please explain some methods you use for training.

This is a discussion not a flaming attempt.
Each of us will doubtless have various methods and we may not all agree with one another.
However, there is little reason we cannot discuss and even disagree without being civil

[Sihing73]

Adducting the knees is not important , it is enough that knees are slightly bent , also stance can be shoulder wide or wider but even if it is narrower than shoulders it is not so important . What is important is position of what Chinese call "kwa" . Proper position will allow absorption of the force . If the knees are slightly bent and spine and pelvic area are in proper alignment weight will naturally "fall" on the balls of the feet.

Zuti,

Please expand on your view.
If stance width, position of the legs and degree of bend of the knees are not important and adduction of the kness does not matter why are such things taught?
Again not trying to flame or start a negative discourse but interested in your approach.

[wckf92]

Again, this is only for training and represents a starting point.

Please explain some methods you use for training.

This is a discussion not a flaming attempt.
Each of us will doubtless have various methods and we may not all agree with one another.
However, there is little reason we cannot discuss and even disagree without being civil

Hi Dave.
Apologies if my post came across as being uncivil. It wasn't meant to. I guess I need to work on my writing style! I'm not sure what a 'flaming attempt' is(?) Anyway, no worries.
To expand a little: once the student is in his YJKYM, I will do pushing/pressing only a little bit. Once this is done, I'll do a little bit of hitting/striking to observe their YJKYM reaction.
Then, I'll have them turn or shift and perform the same sort of 'awareness' drills...so they get a frontal, and side appreciation for what their YJKYM is about, given their specific body structure.
As time goes by (weeks, months?) and they are comfortable and confident, more dynamic drills are introduced.
A major part of being able to have a good solid YJKYM (regardless of what you are doing, i.e. static, turning/shifting, dynamic/moving) is doing a lot of post training.

[Sihing73]

Hi Dave.
Apologies if my post came across as being uncivil. It wasn't meant to. I guess I need to work on my writing style! I'm not sure what a 'flaming attempt' is(?) Anyway, no worries.
To expand a little: once the student is in his YJKYM, I will do pushing/pressing only a little bit. Once this is done, I'll do a little bit of hitting/striking to observe their YJKYM reaction.
Then, I'll have them turn or shift and perform the same sort of 'awareness' drills...so they get a frontal, and side appreciation for what their YJKYM is about, given their specific body structure.
As time goes by (weeks, months?) and they are comfortable and confident, more dynamic drills are introduced.
A major part of being able to have a good solid YJKYM (regardless of what you are doing, i.e. static, turning/shifting, dynamic/moving) is doing a lot of post training.

Not directed at you, my comments were just in case I came across as uncivil.
Political Correctness will be the end of us all, lol.
In my younger days I tended to speak more directly and while I have mellowed I still sometimes speak too direct for some. :D

Your approach sound similar to how I was taught.

An interesting observation is that sometimes students are more mobile and less stable.
For example in some lineages shifting is used while in others stepping is more prevalent.

Would be curious in how others feel as regards whether one should be more "stable" or more "mobile"?
In other words to deal with an incoming attacker would you rather shift or step?

[wckf92]

For example in some lineages shifting is used while in others stepping is more prevalent.

Would be curious in how others feel as regards whether one should be more "stable" or more "mobile"?

In other words to deal with an incoming attacker would you rather shift or step?



I think one must be comfortable with stability first, then move on to mobility.

As for your last question...there is no simple answer IMO. Situationally dependent...etc. Some are trained to crash; some to side step, some to use knife footwork, some make the opponent turn/shift/step.

[zuti car]

Zuti,

Please expand on your view.
If stance width, position of the legs and degree of bend of the knees are not important and adduction of the kness does not matter why are such things taught?
Again not trying to flame or start a negative discourse but interested in your approach.

I know you do not have any negative intention, there is no need to put that in every post :) . Anyway , width of the stance is not important in a sense that it can be little wider or little narrower than shoulder width . Stance cannot be too wide or the structure will be broken , and it must be wide at least as width of four feet ( human feet , not foot as a measuring unit ) . Anyway , if structure is good , it is possible to do all thous structure "tests" standing on one leg . Addiction of the knees is important but it is just one of the "structure " \ absorption methods , knees\feet can be parallel without adduction and still be equally efficient if the upper body structure is correct ( there are also different ways of skeletal alignment ) . Different styles use different basic structure \stance and they have their reason for that , personally I teach adducted knees stance to the beginners because it is easy to "feel" and understand how that whole concept works , after a while , as the training progress and structure is better , people naturally stop to adduct the knees and take the stance which is more comfortable for them and that is totally ok because they are able to control the force and maintain the structure . I've also started with adducted knees stance and later that changed .Now , why such things are taught , simply because every training must start from somewhere and for the beginner is important to learn and understand basic concepts of the style he is practicing . Precise position of the body helps student to learn and develop necessary skills quickly and it is not good to teach too many things at the beginning because too much information on same subject ( like teaching several different structure methods) can cause confusion and slow down the training significantly.In short , purpose of YJKYM is to teach a student basic concepts of dealing with incoming force and to control his body as well as how to control his opponent's body when contact is established . Once learned , a need for precise position of the basic stance stops and can take a free form

[anerlich]

Slowly pushing or pressing bares little semblance to what it will be like in high stress situations / real life. etc.

Perhaps this is true of pure striking, but sustained slow pressure is definitely part of a grappling situation.

Other than solo stance work, breathing, forms, etc. and trying to "sink" I do not specifically train to develop a strong root. I learn and practice the necessary skills through chi sao and standup wrestling. I'll practice balance while riding the train as well.

I agree (I think) with zuti in saying that developing rooting skills in a static position doesn't necessarily translate to applying and absorbing force in a dynamic situation. Also, I don't believe the YGKYM stance is very effective stance from which to apply or receive force. I will just about always work from a 50/50 front stance. My instructor changed the way we do forms to replace the YGKYM with front stances in a many places. This was from much observation of WC guys in ring fights - those that fought from a parallel stance almost always either

i) dropped a foot back and went onto a front stance when pressure was applied;
ii) got quickly forced back into the ropes.

You can make a parallel or sideways parallel stance work BEFORE pressure is applied, and some like this because you can quickly lead with either side, plus you are less susceptible to single leg takedowns or leg kicks (though arguably more susceptible to double leg attacks). Once the pressure is on, though, you need to change stance. IMO. YMMV.

[LFJ]

One more thing , people invented different kind of stances because natural stance and weight distribution are not the best solutions for fighting

Mushashi apparently disagreed.

[zuti car]

Mushashi apparently disagreed.

His opinion is valid for him only , do not fall on Japanese martial marketing :)

[zuti car]

I agree (I think) with zuti in saying that developing rooting skills in a static position doesn't necessarily translate to applying and absorbing force in a dynamic situation. Also, I don't believe the YGKYM stance is very effective stance from which to apply or receive force. .

Here is the main problem why most of the TCMA styles "do not " work . Let's say static rooting skills are foundation but when it comes to fighting , all these things learned to be done in basic stance are simply lost , like in that video on other thread . Many hours of training spent on various drills and chi sao , keeping proper position , basic rooting, simply are not applicable in real fight . I never seen a kung fu fighter who kept proper structure during the fight and there is a simple reason for that . I have learned from several teacher , went to seminars , visited many schools , talked to many people but no one taught basic mechanics of moving and keeping proper structure , something that should be learned at the beginning of second form .David Cheung is teaching something like that, but his footwork can be applied only for forward stepping , and side steps to some point ( if the incoming force comes from the best possible angle), but not for stepping back or some other footwork patterns , also , TWC as I was taught has no concept of "body structure" only maintaining the balance . I also have never seen anyone paying attention on structure during sparring . I know many schools where people spar seriously but that is nothing more than some kind of kick boxing although they call it wing chun

[wckf92]

Perhaps this is true of pure striking, but sustained slow pressure is definitely part of a grappling situation.

Other than solo stance work, breathing, forms, etc. and trying to "sink" I do not specifically train to develop a strong root. I learn and practice the necessary skills through chi sao and standup wrestling. I'll practice balance while riding the train as well.

I agree (I think) with zuti in saying that developing rooting skills in a static position doesn't necessarily translate to applying and absorbing force in a dynamic situation. Also, I don't believe the YGKYM stance is very effective stance from which to apply or receive force. I will just about always work from a 50/50 front stance. My instructor changed the way we do forms to replace the YGKYM with front stances in a many places. This was from much observation of WC guys in ring fights - those that fought from a parallel stance almost always either

i) dropped a foot back and went onto a front stance when pressure was applied;
ii) got quickly forced back into the ropes.

You can make a parallel or sideways parallel stance work BEFORE pressure is applied, and some like this because you can quickly lead with either side, plus you are less susceptible to single leg takedowns or leg kicks (though arguably more susceptible to double leg attacks). Once the pressure is on, though, you need to change stance. IMO. YMMV.

Good points. Yes, I stand corrected on your first sentence. I was referring to WC / pure striking in my earlier post.
I do the same on trains! haha
While not always 50/50...I mostly use a lead leg stance as well.

[robertdreeben]

[QUOTE]From Angerlich:

"I'll practice balance while riding the train as well."

Great discussion. The numerous replies show the versatility of applying WC in different fashions, from different lineages tailored into individual needs and body types. In our lineage [Micky Chan VT an evolution of Moy Yat VT] we spend a lot of time developing our horse and root by playing Luk Sao and toy ma with a slow roll and Chung Chi in a dynamic moving as necessary fashion, with no fixed footwork positioning. Each partner is trying to feel out the others balance and structure while attempting to push [uproot] while stepping as little as possible. It is the opponent who should be "dancing" not you. Pushing is done with relaxed tan, bon and fook without shoulder activation. energy is coming from the legs through a relaxed torso. In this venue you learn how to dissipate incoming force with subtle body realignment and weight transfer or challenge it directly with better structure all the while developing the practical ability to immediately uproot the opponent and send him backwards upon first contact engagement with his bridge . Admittedly, this training can be tedious, frustrating [being slammed into the wall over and over] and even boring, for some who don't see the value in perfecting this attribute. However the pay-off is in the end when you can cross hands with any martial artist and maintain your root and balance while under heavy forward pressure.

A little technique for neophytes on how to keep your balance on a moving subway car without holding on to anything, from a former Transit cop: when the train is slowing or accelerating stand sideways feet parallel facing the windows. Once it levels off at speed turn and stand facing the direction of travel feet parallel and you will be sturdy side to side during turns. Works every time. For advanced balance training just walk down the car while the train is moving- slowing, starting or turning. Great practice for any martial artist who rides the train!

[anerlich]

[QUOTE]From Angerlich:

A little technique for neophytes on how to keep your balance on a moving subway car without holding on to anything, from a former Transit cop: when the train is slowing or accelerating stand sideways feet parallel facing the windows. Once it levels off at speed turn and stand facing the direction of travel feet parallel and you will be sturdy side to side during turns. Works every time. For advanced balance training just walk down the car while the train is moving- slowing, starting or turning. Great practice for any martial artist who rides the train!

Who's this Angerlich dude? :p

Haven't tried that advice - I usually stand at about 45 degrees to the direction of travel, working both forward and sideways, but mix it up, too. Interesting. Our trains tend to be a bit crowded for unlimited walking up and down in, plus you get some suspicious looks. Or maybe that's just me.

[robertdreeben]

"[QUOTE]Who's this Angerlich dude?"

Oops, typo my bad.

I agree; walking back and forth on a train in that fashion might generate a 911 radio run as a suspicious male or an EDP [emotionally disturbed person] from worried passengers.

For You Know Who: always nice to see a picture of Chang Dung Sheng! Shuai Chiao is my secret weapon I use to cheat with when I'm getting bested in chi sao!

[anerlich]

"[QUOTE]Who's this Angerlich dude?"

Oops, typo my bad.



No probs, I kind of like it.