TCMA Survival

[mickey]

Greetings,

The 20th century was one where we saw the rapid spread of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA, beginning in China with the founding of the Chin Woo and the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute and similar institutions and then blossoming with Chinese migration across the world, foreign interest in TCMA, and the opening of diplomatic relations with Mainland China. While it is nice that there is widespread interest in TCMA, for it to survive will it be necessary for it to go back to becoming a family art/sect art as many styles were in before the 20th century?

Please share your views on this.

mickey

[Cataphract]

No, instead it should become based on evidence. I agree there is a gray area where successful healing is hard to measure. But there are far too many quacks out there preying on the ill and desperate. Medical personnel must be accountable for their actions.

[mickey]

Greetings Cataphract,

I am talking about the martial, not the medical. :)

I do agree that the emerging alternative therapies need to be evidence based. There have been those that did produce evidence that were not embraced because of $$$. Gerson therapy is one.


mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings,

The 20th century was one where we saw the rapid spread of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA, beginning in China with the founding of the Chin Woo and the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute and similar institutions and then blossoming with Chinese migration across the world, foreign interest in TCMA, and the opening of diplomatic relations with Mainland China. While it is nice that there is widespread interest in TCMA, for it to survive will it be necessary for it to go back to becoming a family art/sect art as many styles were in before the 20th century?

Please share your views on this.

mickey

There will always be a place for TCMA as exercise in the mainstream BUT yes, I believe that in regards to fighting arts that TCMA will survive as "family styles" unless they take the sport route.

[David Jamieson]

If it's not practical for tactical it will not survive.
There is still room for growth and change.
That is the thing about a lot of traditional things, they kind of "break their own feet" and become anachronistic.
At some point, if you don't keep developing and working on an art, it dies out.

Having roots in tradition and being open to continued growth is good.
Thinking that it has all been done and is to stand like an ancient monument in defiance of time is kind of foolish.

For definitive proof of this, I present to you the modern world. :D

[MightyB]

For definitive proof of this, I present to you the modern world. :D

Did Atlantis Really Have Indoor Plumbing?

Video URL Below:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/category/history/did-atlantis-really-have-indoor-plumbing/?no-ist

[David Jamieson]

Did Atlantis Really Have Indoor Plumbing?

Video URL Below:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/category/history/did-atlantis-really-have-indoor-plumbing/?no-ist

lol.

As far as can be told, Atlantis was either a straight up myth, or it was the civilizations that existed in central america.
Tenochtitlan fits the description quite well. But no indoor plumbing.

[Cataphract]

I am talking about the martial, not the medical. :)

LOL ;)

On topic, I don't think it makes much of a difference. The idea of the Kung Fu hero is deeply ingrained by Wuxia films now, so that there will never be a shortage of people practicing the forms. Arts like TaiChi changed fundamentally during the last 150 years and spread around the globe. Is it a traditional art? Is it a Chinese art? Maybe in a hundred years people will speak about "traditional American" MMA? I think what we will see is a lot cross pollination.

[Jimbo]

Greetings,

The 20th century was one where we saw the rapid spread of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA, beginning in China with the founding of the Chin Woo and the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute and similar institutions and then blossoming with Chinese migration across the world, foreign interest in TCMA, and the opening of diplomatic relations with Mainland China. While it is nice that there is widespread interest in TCMA, for it to survive will it be necessary for it to go back to becoming a family art/sect art as many styles were in before the 20th century?

Please share your views on this.

mickey

I believe that TCMA systems can survive, but IMO they will never gain the mainstream popularity and acceptance of other categories of MA, such KMA and JMA, and especially the standard arts recognized in MMA; BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling. Well, technically, BJJ IS a part of JMA, but that's another discussion. Historically, TCMA has been insular in comparison. Sure, there are successful Kung Fu franchise schools, but they're relatively rare, and many of those are actually Karate schools masquerading as TCMA. And many actual TCMA are not available everywhere like other MA.

And Kung Fu movies no longer inspire kids/young people to actively seek out Kung Fu training like they did in the '70s and '80s. It's a different world now. Young people want to do what their role models do, and more often than not, those role models are MMA fighters and other sports figures. For TCMA, that could be both good and bad. There must be an emphasis on the quality of students that DO come to TCMA and their development, over sheer quantity of students.

And yes, TCMA needs to continue to evolve to grow. Otherwise, fewer and fewer people will be willing to invest the considerable time, hard work and sacrifice for something they view as irrelevant and obsolete. Because whether their opinions are correct or not, the reality of declining interest/participation is still the same.

[MightyB]

I'm not sure it's accurate to say TCMA is dying. I think there is a challenge in defining the space or segment that TCMA is going to have to target (in the USA).

IMO TCMA classes can do a better job of attracting new students if the instructors figure out what niche they want to satisfy in the market. For example, I keep thinking about how Yoga is filling a need for people who want a semi spiritual traditional physical exercise and how authentic Tai Chi fits that same demographic. Yoga is extremely popular with millennials. So what could authentic tai chi instructors do to grow in the millennial market?

or look at the success of Shaolin in China. Are there (marketing) ideas that we could take from there to grow here?

Wushu / Gymnastics ... same demographic.

So again, the challenge is figuring out who is the ideal target customer, and how do we attract that customer?

[SteveLau]

Yes. I agree TCMA survival will be based on evidence (by Cataphract). So if more TCMA students participate in open tournaments, and end up with good result, not only will traditional art survive, it will long live and prosper.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[mooyingmantis]

Perhaps it is time to let some systems that have out lived their relevance die. Just make them museum pieces and move on.

[boxerbilly]

I made a post long ago. Telling you to keep your arts alive. Ill say it again. KEEP YOU ARTS ALIVE !

How you do it or what path you take to achieve that is of little importance. If you are a keeper of your art then the task falls on you, my friends. It's survival is simply up to you.

[bawang]

chinese martial arts will go on without tightey whitey.

[PalmStriker]

:D you funee chinee guy. I don't know about the other styles but WingChun is being kept alive in the movies.

[Jimbo]

:D you funee chinee guy. I don't know about the other styles but WingChun is being kept alive in the movies.

Hi.

Wing Chun won't have any problems with its survival because it's the most famous, popular and widespread CMA system in the world after Taiji. When most non-CMA people even mention CMA in a martial context, they are almost always referring to WC.

[boxerbilly]

Nice to see you posting again Bwang.

[boxerbilly]

Truthfully all the traditional arts regardless their origin likely took a significant hit after the Gracie's and the UFC. It leads many people maybe most people to believe traditional arts have no effectiveness. Simply not true.

A while back I was corresponding with a BJJ guy I believe in the Washington State area. He told me he really misses the traditional arts. Said he walked away from them. He studied Japanese/ Chinese arts. I forget which, for 20+ years and then jumped the Gracie band wagon and slowly left it all behind. He said, he tried for awhile to keep his traditional school open but eventually the BJJ classes over took the others and he stopped teaching and practicing the other stuff and focused solely on BJJ. He said he regrets it now. His hips and knees are screwed up for all the ground work. He said it really has taken its toll on his body.

Anyway. I love all the arts and appreciate most of the people in them.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I thank those who kept the subject matter on topic and serious. And I thank you for your points of view. I have found that TCMA requires a level of immersion that may be best honored by stating at a young age. Additionally, progress may be faster because the commercial aspect ($$$) is removed. Liability costs are removed. It is simply hardcore training over a course of years. The fighting traditions are kept intact and advanced. This does not mean that someone who practices within the family/sect is shut off from outside training. Right now we do not have the structures that will allow such training that disciplines such as ballet and gymnastics have.

Going all out public means that some things are sacrificed: healing modalities particular to certain styles, deadly techniques, alchemy, etc.-- important components for the full development of the human being.

mickey

[Jimbo]

I agree that it's best to start CMA when young.

In my observation and experience, it also helps to come into CMA training with previous training from outside of CMA. Of course there are exceptions, and many may argue the contrary. But I've simply noticed that those who come from a considerable karate, judo, boxing, or other background that emphasizes a lot of sparring, IF they are physically and mentally adaptable, often progress faster in CMA, especially in the fighting aspects, than many people who've only trained CMA. I know that my own previous karate, judo and kickboxing experience helped me when I got into CMA, and I've seen it that way with others as well.

[mickey]

Greetings Jimbo,

It may be that TCMA attracts certain types of people in this country, people who are non confrontational, who are into it for the exercise, or who really joy the aesthetics. The "loose cannon" or "kung fu nut" seems to pose a problem when they are so needed. When it comes to fighting, with the possible exception of the kung fu nut and loose cannons, dominating the straight line can prove to be a challenge. So, I do agree with your observations to a degree. Fighting experience helps a person understand what NOW is and shakes them away from the sequential thinking of the "and then, and then, and then...." often trained in forms and one step sparring techniques.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Good points, mickey.

Regarding the teaching of applications, some of the older teachers who were not so open with actual usage, on the rare occasions they would actually demonstrate applications to a student, often did so in a gimmicky manner. Meaning, having the student do some contrived (usually slow) attack, and the teacher, with a big grin on his face, quickly pulls off some 'clever' little maneuver on the mostly stationary, awe-struck student that probably wouldn't work against someone not in awe or cooperating. Then it becomes "Then if you try to counter this way, I do this; if you counter that, I do this." And on and on. Almost like handing out a little tidbit as if to say, "This is all in the forms, so if you just practice those, you can naturally pull off this secret move." My very first CMA teacher in Taiwan was an older teacher of mainly Long Fist who on rare occasions did this, and I've seen other, usually older generation Chinese teachers do it as well. Of course, such 'tricks' are rarely if ever drilled with any realism to make it anywhere near functional, and the students, though impressed, are usually still clueless afterwards. This is one type of 'tradition' or behavior that holds back many CMA.

Another counter-productive behavior among many CMAists is negative gossip. Many MAists of different categories do this, but it seems particularly rife in CMA. Like schoolgirls. In years past, I partook in some gossip, but the words of my CLF Sifu came back to me: "Gossiping about other people has nothing at all to do with training. It's a waste of time. Just concentrate on getting better at your own kung fu." I'm paraphrasing a bit, but that was the gist of it. The truth is, people gossip about others to feel better about themselves, but NOBODY outside of maybe a small group of people cares even a bit. Abandoning negative gossip about other CMA/CMAists would definitely be one step in the right direction.

[GeneChing]

From a strictly economic aspect (something I can see quite clearly from Tiger Claw (https://www.tigerclaw.com/home.php) & MartialArtsMart (http://www.martialartsmart.com/)), we aren't seeing a significant decline in sales or TCMA accounts. There is an issue with supply. There are fewer manufacturers of traditional weapons and gear at an affordable price. Most have gone for modern wushu gear or very high end.

Nevertheless, here's a newspiece that thinks TCMA is on the decline in HK:

Exit the Dragon? Kung Fu, Once Central to Hong Kong Life, Is Waning (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/world/asia/hong-kong-kung-fu.html?_r=0)
By CHARLOTTE YANG AUG. 22, 2016

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/08/06/world/09KUNGFU-web1/09KUNGFU-web1-master768.jpg
Mak Che Kong, a kung fu master, giving a lesson in a park in the Kowloon section of Hong Kong. He had to shut his studio when his rent soared. Credit Lam Yik Fei for The New York Times

HONG KONG — Bruce Lee was 14 years old, and on the losing end of several street fights with local gang members, when he took up kung fu.

It was 1955, and Hong Kong was bustling with schools teaching a range of kung fu styles, including close-combat techniques and a method using a daunting weapon known as the nine-dragon trident.

Mr. Lee’s decision paid off. After perfecting moves like his one-inch punch and leaping kick under the tutelage of a grand master, he became an international star, introducing kung fu to the world in films like “Enter the Dragon” in 1973.

Decades later, cue the dragon’s exit.

The kung fu culture that Mr. Lee helped popularize — and that gave the city a gritty, exotic image in the eyes of foreigners — is in decline. Hong Kong’s streets are safer, with fewer murders by the fierce crime organizations known as triads that figured in so many kung fu films. And its real estate is among the world’s most expensive, making it difficult for training studios to afford soaring rents.

Gone are the days when “kung fu was a big part of people’s cultural and leisure life,” said Mak King Sang Ricardo, the author of a history of martial arts in Hong Kong. “After work, people would go to martial arts schools, where they’d cook dinner together and practice kung fu until 11 at night.”

With a shift in martial arts preferences, the rise of video games — more teenagers play Pokémon Go in parks here than practice a roundhouse kick — and a perception among young people that kung fu just isn’t cool, longtime martial artists worry that kung fu’s future is bleak.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/08/06/world/09KUNGFU-web2/09KUNGFU-web2-master675.jpg
A class at one of the few kung fu schools remaining in Yau Ma Tei, once a center for martial arts. Credit Lam Yik Fei for The New York Times

“When I was growing up so many people learned kung fu, but that’s no longer the case,” said Leung Ting, 69, who has been teaching wing chun, a close-combat technique, for 50 years. “Sadly, I think Chinese martial arts are more popular overseas than in their home now.”

According to Mr. Leung’s organization, the International WingTsun Association, former apprentices have opened 4,000 branches in more than 65 countries, but only five in Hong Kong.

Few kung fu schools remain in Yau Ma Tei, a district of Kowloon that was once the center for martial arts. Nathan Road — where the young Bruce Lee learned his craft from Ip Man (often spelled Yip Man), the legendary teacher who was the subject of Wong Kar-wai’s 2013 film “The Grandmaster” — is now lined with cosmetic shops and pharmacies that cater to tourists from the mainland.

Though he lives in Yau Ma Tei, Tony Choi, a recent college graduate, has never been tempted to check out the remaining schools. Mr. Choi, 22, said that “kung fu just never came to mind.”

He added, “Kung fu is more for retired uncles and grandpas.”

When they do train in martial arts, younger people here tend to pick Thai boxing and judo.

Valerie Ng, a 20-year-old college student, says she prefers Thai boxing because it is “attractive and charming” and does not take as long to master. She noted that kung fu masters often do not have defined muscles and that some of them look, well, a little chubby.

https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2016/08/21/kungfumap/0aa71441ac79a60ddcbcc42c7d819a2458863b6e/0822-web-HONGKONGmap-Artboard_2.png
By The New York Times

“You can see how fierce Thai boxing is from watching professional matches,” she said. “But I rarely see such competition for kung fu, which makes me wonder whether those kung fu masters really are good at fighting or they just claim to be,” she said.

So Tak Chung, 59, remembers how different things were. When he was a boy, he and his friends would run home from school as fast as they could to watch kung fu shows on television.

“Kung fu always gave me a sense of justice and pride in being Chinese,” Mr. So said while stretching his legs for a Sunday night lesson at Kowloon Park. “It feels like if you knew kung fu, you could beat the bad guys and help the needy.”

Mr. So’s master, Mak Che Kong, 64, is less hopeful about the future. He ran one of the last studios in Kowloon, but soaring rents caused it to shut down, along with other family businesses that were once a fixture of Hong Kong street life, like Dit Da, or bone-setting, shops that use traditional Chinese medicine to treat sprains and fractures.

Mr. Mak, who is not related to the author of the martial arts history, has fewer than 20 students now, down from twice that number several years ago. Most students are over the age of 40.

He holds classes all over the city because “students will not come if they need to travel much.” On Tuesdays, he teaches at a pier in the city’s Central District; on Wednesdays, near a government marriage registry in Sha Tin in the New Territories; and on Sundays, at a public park in Kowloon.

Describing himself as “old school,” Mr. Mak fiercely defended kung fu traditions. “Chinese kung fu is not about fighting; it is about patience and hard work,” he said.

When he learned kung fu in the late 1960s, masters were father figures and apprentices had deep respect for kung fu. Students were willing to spend months or years perfecting just their horse-riding stance, a rest position often used for practicing punches and strengthening the legs and back.

“Today, if you ask a student to practice horse-riding stance for one lesson, he will not come again,” Mr. Mak said. “They are used to living a comfortable life.”

In English, kung fu is often used as an umbrella term for all Chinese martial arts. But in Chinese, it refers to any discipline or skill that is achieved through hard work.

Kung fu traces its history to ancient China, with hundreds of fighting styles developing over the centuries. But it soared in popularity at the beginning of the 20th century, as revolution swept the nation.

After the fall of the Qing dynasty a century ago, the Chinese Nationalist party, or the Kuomintang, used martial arts to promote national pride, setting up competitions and sending an exhibition team to the Olympics. But the government also tried to suppress wuxia, a martial arts genre of literature and film, as superstitious and potentially subversive.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/08/06/world/09KUNGFU-web4/09KUNGFU-web4-master675.jpg
A statue of Bruce Lee in Hong Kong. Mr. Lee took up kung fu in 1955, when Hong Kong was bustling with schools teaching a range of styles. Credit Lam Yik Fei for The New York Times

When the Nationalists fell in 1949, the new Communist government in Beijing sought to control martial arts from the Chinese mainland. The Shaolin Temple, said to be the home of Asian martial arts in central China, was ransacked during the Cultural Revolution of 1966-76 and its Buddhist monks jailed.

Throughout those decades, martial artists from mainland China sought refuge in what was then the British colony of Hong Kong.

By the 1970s, kung fu fever had spread around the world. In addition to Bruce Lee’s films, the television series “Kung Fu,” starring David Carradine, became one of the most popular programs in the United States.

Though Hong Kong’s kung fu films do not draw the attention they once did, the genre has influenced a generation of directors, including Quentin Tarantino and Ang Lee, and the actor Jackie Chan and others have kept it alive as comedy.

In a twist, kung fu has enjoyed a renaissance in mainland China, where the government has standardized it and promoted it in secondary schools as a sport known as wushu to foster national pride.

As the martial arts center of gravity shifts to the mainland, some in Hong Kong have expressed hope that the government might support a revival here, too. Others are trying to carry on the tradition themselves.

Li Zhuangxin, a trim 17-year-old, has been studying the wing chun technique for more than four years. He was inspired by his grandfather, a devotee of the fighting style hung ga who gave Mr. Li his first kung fu lesson at age 8.

He hopes to open his own kung fu school one day — maybe on the mainland, where interest is higher and rents are cheaper — and has already set up a small wing chun club, with eight members, at his high school.

Few of his classmates had ever heard of wing chun before. Mr. Li, undaunted, says he wants to impart “the concentration and determination of kung fu” to his friends, who he laments are “only interested in playing with their cellphones.”

[Jimbo]

I saw a video awhile back showing Lau Ka Yung (nephew of Lau Kar-Leung) teaching a Hung Gar seminar in Europe, in which he stated that he won't teach kung fu to Chinese in Hong Kong anymore. He said that they don't care about kung fu.

During my time in Taiwan, there were some CMA teachers there saying that before long, if the Chinese want to learn real CMA, they will have to go abroad and learn it from the foreigners. Because there was more perceived interest among foreigners than the Chinese themselves. This was back in the '80s/early '90s. I'd be willing to bet that interest in kung fu in Taiwan was higher then than it is now.

[bawang]

I saw a video awhile back showing Lau Ka Yung (nephew of Lau Kar-Leung) teaching a Hung Gar seminar in Europe, in which he stated that he won't teach kung fu to Chinese in Hong Kong anymore. He said that they don't care about kung fu.

During my time in Taiwan, there were some CMA teachers there saying that before long, if the Chinese want to learn real CMA, they will have to go abroad and learn it from the foreigners. Because there was more perceived interest among foreigners than the Chinese themselves. This was back in the '80s/early '90s. I'd be willing to bet that interest in kung fu in Taiwan was higher then than it is now.

R u trolling bro

[Jimbo]

R u trolling bro

Unfortunately, no.

I did see the video where Lau Ka-Yung stated that on YouTube sometime last year or so. Unfortunately, when I tried to find it again to post it here, it had apparently been taken down.

As for some CMA teachers in Taiwan saying that, I said 'some' had said that, not the majority of them. And also as I mentioned, due more to greater 'perceived interest' from foreigners. There was still interest in CMA among Taiwan students when I left in '93, but it had lessened considerably over the years from when I first got there in the mid-'80s. I know there is a lot going on that isn't out in the open. Maybe the teachers I heard saying that (one was announcing over a microphone at a tournament) were giving a light admonishment over the reduced interest in CMA there. Or maybe he was being facetious(?).

[bawang]

it would make sense for chinatown chop socky kung fu to die down with its generation, like all mirages they eventually fade into nothing over time. there is no redeeming quality to justify its continued existence.

[SteveLau]

One way to help TCMA to survive is simplify it. To quote from an article written by a local sifu, he said its best to learn the simplified version first. If the student is still interested after that, and would like to advance their knowledge and skill of the style further, go for the traditional version.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[boxerbilly]

One way to help TCMA to survive is simplify it. To quote from an article written by a local sifu, he said its best to learn the simplified version first. If the student is still interested after that, and would like to advance their knowledge and skill of the style further, go for the traditional version.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

Fantastic idea in my opinion.

[Firehawk4]

Do you mean learn san sao or san sik versions of Kung Fu ?

[bawang]

One way to help TCMA to survive is simplify it. To quote from an article written by a local sifu, he said its best to learn the simplified version first. If the student is still interested after that, and would like to advance their knowledge and skill of the style further, go for the traditional version.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

kung fu was never complex. hong kong down syndrome kung fu mangled it up and made fake complex and sold it as the premise for superiority of chinese martial arts over all others. the moment u turn back on ur gimmick to show the original real kung fu u smash ur rice bowl. its over. time to die (metaphorically)


luckily wombat combat is immune from such folly and tomfoolery

[SteveLau]

Do you mean learn san sao or san sik versions of Kung Fu ?

Firehawk4, I am not sure what you mean. But what I mean by simplified MA are versions that are available in the martial art world such as Simplified Karate, Simplified Southern Fist, Simplified Tai Chi, etc.




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[wolfen]

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/08/06/world/09KUNGFU-web1/09KUNGFU-web1-master768.jpg

He had to shut his studio when his rent soared.
:

Hmm Same thing happening there as in BC? Chinese investors driving up market prices making housing very costly and unaffordable for many. A Pity, I was thinking of buying an apt there.
...
A pose from Hun Gar, yeah I like that pose from one of my old forms , get the energy tremor in the finger and then explode.
....
I'm keeping my eye on Europe to see what will happen to private martial arts in the West, Heh, after pioneers have taken MA out of obscurity and erosion back to America, we may have to take it back to Asia to preserve it.

[bawang]

dat white savior complex

[wolfen]

dat white savior complex

lol
All KungFus matter.

[Kellen Bassette]

One way to help TCMA to survive is simplify it. To quote from an article written by a local sifu, he said its best to learn the simplified version first. If the student is still interested after that, and would like to advance their knowledge and skill of the style further, go for the traditional version.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

One way of simplifying is removing the layers of excess that accumulate in a system over a few generations. People add forms and drills from other styles, invent their own, systems become bloated and deal more with memorizing and retaining than actual function.

If a system was a legitimate fighting system it will be based on core principals that will probably be universal to all real fighting systems. From there you focus on the aspects that make it unique, or give it it's flavor...the theory and application of the methods. There is no need to pass on every thing you learned, or retain everything you were taught.....if you get to the bones of an art, you have much more than would by collecting and expanding a system.

[wolfen]

One way to help TCMA to survive is simplify it. To quote from an article written by a local sifu, he said its best to learn the simplified version first. If the student is still interested after that, and would like to advance their knowledge and skill of the style further, go for the traditional version.


Regards,

KC
Hong Kong An article in English? Who was that?

Basic Kungfu is simplified kungfu, but simplified kungfu is not basic kungfu.
...
Basic kungfu, the first four of five years teaches the basics of body movement. The exercise of the whole body and all it's functions. The specific style is complementary. If it doesn't appear so, if it seems it doesn't encompass full body basics it just might not be good basic kungfu. It teaches body mechanics in a progressive way and gives you a method of breaking down mechanics and leaning how to exercise. From a good basic kungfu, you should be able to take up any sport and know how to practice it and be successful.
It's a very ambitious definition.
After you learn kungf/TMA basics you can start to learn kungfu/TMA.

Simplified kungfu/TMA is fragmented TMA, It's just isolated movements. It's the twigs of branches of a limb of a tree, not too meaningful or useful and the root still needs to be learned.
---
North American culture often tries to interferes with TMA learning. If people learn something external to themselves and it doesn't change them, then their MA is weak. People can't see their culture or their socialization, like a fish is unaware of water. TMA practices help the student distance themselves from their constraining physical and mental culture and the traditional physical practices help them dis-identify with the forces that manipulative them.

People carry mental constraint in their body from their culture and in the same way they carry physical constraint from their culture. So basic TMA is also training the mind which is not the case with casual or superficial learning.
It does seem that the cellphone texting generation lives in a world of distraction and superficiality.They suffer from a snowflake style eduction and are suffering under a constant barrage of mind crippling propaganda from the Globalist owned media that keeps them from thinking clearly for the purposes of social control. It's very hard for them to follow a way of self-disciple and self development. So certainly contempory culture has an effect on the transmission of TMA. It looks like HK is no exception.

...
I heard from someone who was there, that Gozo Shioda said on his deathbed: "I am the last" which I was thinking might be a shock to a gathering of his most dedicated followers. If I interpret the meaning of that correctly.

[bawang]

the new "bruce lee" movie main stars white man asian woman romance. this is spirit of american kung fu.

[hskwarrior]

the new "bruce lee" movie main stars white man asian woman romance. this is spirit of american kung fu.

shut the **** up

[bawang]

you are also essence of american kung fu. small hearted with no anus, petty, vain.

[hskwarrior]

you are also essence of american kung fu. small hearted with no anus, petty, vain.

you need to be shot in the face multiple times mother facker.

[bawang]

"they pretend to be us while pretending we dont exist"

you need to be shot in the face multiple times mother facker.

lol i was on welfare until last year im the real urban kung fu. post new video bro i wanna see dat belly wobble

[hskwarrior]

lol i was on welfare until last year im the real urban kung fu. post new video bro i wanna see dat belly wobble

come to san francisco and i'll show it to you nice and up close.

[bawang]

your entire 6 years of batsh1t crazy hostility was me making joke on facebook pretend to be chinese mom saying YOU ARE THE FAT and i didnt know you actually knew NOTHING about chinese culture cues. pretty much all the chinatown panda express kung fu hobby lobby crackerjacks i met were like you. petty to the max

[hskwarrior]

your entire 6 years of batsh1t crazy hostility was me making joke on facebook pretend to be chinese mom saying YOU ARE THE FAT and i didnt know you actually knew NOTHING about chinese culture cues. pretty much all the chinatown panda express kung fu hobby lobby crackerjacks i met were like you. petty to the max

come to sf and we can pick out the milk carton the police will use to put your face on. "HAVE YOU SEE ME? I'M SEEM TO BE MISSING".

PU$$Y

[bawang]

wat will happen is i would go drinking and laughing with shrimp boy (theoretically non imprison) while you tail awkwardly in the background.

if u ever want to learn real plum flower real five elements bow down to me i will teach free. but you must first lose 50 lb

lol @ wanna be urban hip hop clf wankster. i was made honorary black by black hebrew israelites. my policy teach all black brown brothers free.

[hskwarrior]

wat will happen is i would go drinking and laughing with shrimp boy (theoretically non imprison) while you tail awkwardly in the background.

If u ever want to learn real plum flower real five elements bow down to me i will teach free. But you must first lose 50 lb

come to sf and show me

[bawang]

on my way in my helicopter right now

[hskwarrior]

lol @ wanna be urban hip hop clf wankster. I was made honorary black by black hebrew israelites.

i don't give a fukk about your ethnicity. I want you to come see my belly up close and in person

[mickey]

Gentlemen,

Please stay on topic.

mickey

[-N-]

This will be better than the Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man fight.

Some day it will become a movie.

Title same as this thread.

[mickey]

Greetings,

-N-,

I believe thread starters should oversee their threads and not leave it all to the moderators.

Peace,

mickey

[SevenStar]

I'm not sure it's accurate to say TCMA is dying. I think there is a challenge in defining the space or segment that TCMA is going to have to target (in the USA).

IMO TCMA classes can do a better job of attracting new students if the instructors figure out what niche they want to satisfy in the market. For example, I keep thinking about how Yoga is filling a need for people who want a semi spiritual traditional physical exercise and how authentic Tai Chi fits that same demographic. Yoga is extremely popular with millennials. So what could authentic tai chi instructors do to grow in the millennial market?

or look at the success of Shaolin in China. Are there (marketing) ideas that we could take from there to grow here?

Wushu / Gymnastics ... same demographic.

So again, the challenge is figuring out who is the ideal target customer, and how do we attract that customer?


In terms of fitness and martial arts, it all follows a trend. the boxing / thai boxing gym I attend is the biggest in the city, not because he has world ranked bjj black belts and several fighters, not because of the success of the guys in competitions, but because he offers fitness kickboxing and the women eat it up. He has three facilities across the city now, and one of them offers nothing but fitness kickboxing because the classes are always full. When I taught Zumba at several of the fitness facilities, my classes were always packed. not because I am just that badass of an instructor, but because Zumba is a current fad. in the 80s there was a ninja fad. 90s was kung fu. most o the traditional schools in the city which flourished in the 90s are out of business now - that's not what people are looking for.

My Ngo Cho instructor and I were talking about this just recently. he has a handful of students, literally - like 5. In the year that I've been with him, I've seen four people begin then quit. I told him that getting more students would always be a problem because TCMA is not what's in right now. Now, if he put some of his people in the ring and they performed well, that would be good exposure and almost guaranteed business, but none of the students are interested in the ring. There is indeed that other demographic too - the health crowd, but they seem - at least here - to only gravitate towards yoga.

[SevenStar]

There are fewer manufacturers of traditional weapons and gear at an affordable price. Most have gone for modern wushu gear or very high end.

Nevertheless, here's a newspiece that thinks TCMA is on the decline in HK:

speaking of which, I REALLY need a heavy horse cutter and a heavy kwan dao. I have been training with a 25lb kwan dao, so now I need one of my own - I don't want wushu steel. Gene, can't you just bat your eyelashes at some manufacturer and have them make just one and then not charge me an arm and a leg?

[SevenStar]

One way of simplifying is removing the layers of excess that accumulate in a system over a few generations. People add forms and drills from other styles, invent their own, systems become bloated and deal more with memorizing and retaining than actual function.

If a system was a legitimate fighting system it will be based on core principals that will probably be universal to all real fighting systems. From there you focus on the aspects that make it unique, or give it it's flavor...the theory and application of the methods. There is no need to pass on every thing you learned, or retain everything you were taught.....if you get to the bones of an art, you have much more than would by collecting and expanding a system.

yes, I think that is definitely part of it. "my teacher wanted to keep this form alive," "this form has been passed down for 200 years, but nobody knows who originally created it," translates to a style going from having 7 forms to having 37. This will change the focus to simply learning forms.

[Cataphract]

It works something like this. There is a new martial art in town with a capable and charismatic founder. He finds a hand full of exceptionally dedicated students. Together they reap exceptional results. The public takes notice and the first students start their own schools. Maybe there is a movie. Now the new martial art is a thing and the average student is not nearly as dedicated. Somehow it doesn't feel real. The six pack won't show. The cycle starts over. Judo, Aikido, TKD, Kenpo, WingTsun, KravMaga, MMA, you name it. All have been fads.

I think what I'm trying to say is, that being popular is slowly killing martial arts. Not the other way round.

A side note on Yoga and millenials. Yoga is sexy. You get to wear spandex pants while bending yourself into lascivious positions. I see more of an overlap with the belly button showing kickboxing demographic than the TaiChi folks.

[-N-]

[...] that being popular is slowly killing martial arts.

That's for sure.

[SevenStar]

I disagree there. popularity can kill the arts if there is no standard for measuring what is taught - THAT can kill traditional styles. The school I attend of course has students that aren't as dedicated and also has a lot of fighters, but even those who are not as dedicated are very capable. popularity plays a part in ensuring quality, because people can weed out the BS schools. it's harder to do that with a traditional styles as they aren't as popular. In all honesty, I can't see the trend switching back to TMA unless several TMA suddenly start performing well in MMA events, as that has been the fad for over 20 years now.

[bawang]

good schools utilize popularity by employing meat grinder/gold sifting system. bad schools utilize popularity by commercialization

[Jimbo]

It works something like this. There is a new martial art in town with a capable and charismatic founder. He finds a hand full of exceptionally dedicated students. Together they reap exceptional results. The public takes notice and the first students start their own schools. Maybe there is a movie. Now the new martial art is a thing and the average student is not nearly as dedicated. Somehow it doesn't feel real. The six pack won't show. The cycle starts over. Judo, Aikido, TKD, Kenpo, WingTsun, KravMaga, MMA, you name it. All have been fads.

I think what I'm trying to say is, that being popular is slowly killing martial arts. Not the other way round.

I both agree and disagree.

I think when MA become too closed off and specialized, they begin going away from their original purpose and start to deteriorate. Clear examples are Asian MA in the Olympics, such as TKD (the biggest example) and judo. TKD, or at least the Olympic style, has dropped the quality immensely. I won't be surprised if karate goes all to hell too, once it's established in the Olympics.

Compared to other categories of MA, CMA (except for Taiji and maybe Wing Chun) have never been really popular among most in the West who are interested in MA. Always has been and will likely always be the case. Even more so now with the high popularity of MMA/BJJ/MT. MMA and its associated arts do not seem to be a short-lived fad like others (Ninjutsu, 'kung fu', etc.). Because it's already gained a foothold as a legitimate, major sport. In my area, Kenpo was king for decades, until maybe the late 90s/early 2000s. It dominated the MA scene. It's still alive, but now you barely hear a peep about it. Now MMA and its associated arts are king, especially BJJ.

The various CMA will always have a smaller following than MMA/related arts, TKD, various karate, etc., at least in the West. Even in Taiwan, TKD was king, not CMA. Maybe it still is, but I've heard that MMA has gained a foothold there, too. As always, the survival of CMA will have to depend on a relatively small number of quality teachers and practitioners, and not quantity. In most every MA, the vast majority of students in a school at any given time will not excel at it or stay with it. Even most who do develop some skill and start becoming good at it will eventually stop training MA altogether, as other interests and responsibilities, as well as circumstances, enter their lives and become their main focus. This is also true of most people who go to train in MMA gyms.

[-N-]

As always, the survival of CMA will have to depend on a relatively small number of quality teachers and practitioners, and not quantity. In most every MA, the vast majority of students in a school at any given time will not excel at it or stay with it. Even most who do develop some skill and start becoming good at it will eventually stop training MA altogether, as other interests and responsibilities, as well as circumstances, enter their lives and become their main focus.

That's the reality.

[-N-]

I disagree there. popularity can kill the arts if there is no standard for measuring what is taught - THAT can kill traditional styles.

We partner with a local kung fu school and teach out of their facilities.

The owner has two schools. The one we are at has 55 classes a week. We are 3 of those classes.

They teach modern Shaolin, kickboxing, tai chi, wushu. The school has 13 full height heavy bags, a ring, a practice floor, does kiddie afterschool programs as well as adult classes.

We teach Mantis and have just a handful of students. There's no way we could have a facility that nice teaching what we teach.

The owner was just telling us today that we might have a new student for our Mantis class. He tells prospective students that the kickboxing and Shaolin programs are easier, and if they want something more serious, sign up for the Mantis program. We don't get many takers.

[SevenStar]

We partner with a local kung fu school and teach out of their facilities.

The owner has two schools. The one we are at has 55 classes a week. We are 3 of those classes.

They teach modern Shaolin, kickboxing, tai chi, wushu. The school has 13 full height heavy bags, a ring, a practice floor, does kiddie afterschool programs as well as adult classes.

We teach Mantis and have just a handful of students. There's no way we could have a facility that nice teaching what we teach.

The owner was just telling us today that we might have a new student for our Mantis class. He tells prospective students that the kickboxing and Shaolin programs are easier, and if they want something more serious, sign up for the Mantis program. We don't get many takers.

Do the majority of the prospects come looking for kickboxing or shaolin / wushu / tai chi?

[-N-]

Well, at the branch we are at there are 33 children's kungfu classes, 7 adult kung fu classes, and 4 kick boxing classes.

I think the majority of the kickboxing people are also in their kung fu classes.

My impression is that most people who join or have their kids join, don't specifically have a particular style or system in mind to learn.

[-N-]

We had a TKD blackbelt join and leave after a few weeks. Same for another former TKD student. Had a few Wing Chun people join then leave. Same with a karate and supposedly former South American special forces guy. Some Muy Thai guy came for a couple classes.

We've had some of their instructors and students join our class. Most have left due to other life priorities.

[bawang]

if you teach a lot of forms the qi mosquitos that come and go benefit. they take a few classes buy your form, suck your energy then go home practice their forms.

if you teach sparring the floaters spar one time go away and benefit nothing. but you spar every time so you benefit. you suck their qi.

[Faux Newbie]

In my experience, a lot of what SevenStar said is spot on. You can't fill a class with people who have some desire to learn your actual kung fu style in most cases. A few experienced people might, by word of mouth come in, and that's good, but you'll never fill a class with people who are looking to be studying some specific style.

I think too much emphasis is spent on acculturating students to being defenders of the line, and too little spent on measurable progress in many cases.

Most people are trying it. For most, it might be six months, or a year. There's nothing wrong with that, and teachers who sum this up as a lack of discipline are risking burning bridges and forgetting all the hobbies they may have decided weren't for them.

Many of these fitness classes can be good gateways to giving students some basic introductions and some good exercise, when they are well designed.

Also, for the students who actually devote to the kung fu classes, teachers need to recognize that students now are far more likely to be exposed to any weaknesses in their training much earlier than some did in the past due to social networking.

Sometimes it's important to go through the process of looking over the beginning syllabus and question whether someone doing exactly what it says will have, at least, a minor competence in functional footwork and rational defenses and strikes after a short time.

Is every defense in the syllabus against a jab and a cross? Why?

Is there defenses where the jab is stuffed, and the attacker is supposed to cross anyway? Why?

Am I showing techniques in class that spontaneously occurred to me over the weekend without repeated testing against increasing pressure to make sure it's worth training, and without questioning whether there is something important I've been meaning to show them? Why?

Do I 'know my enemy', not literally, of course, but am I well versed in what other styles are actually about, have I made myself aware of more than what people say about them, and do I avoid teaching 'defense against a boxer' that shows no understanding of what boxers actually do, for instance?

Are the elements of training there to train students, or to make them feel rewarded for being shown them? Why?

Am I expecting students to just come to my door, and only serious students? Why?

Are they learning a system that knowledge of will bring out a respect of the system in them, or are they being taught to respect the system, but could not say more than talking points about what the system truly is? Why?

Do they routinely practice defenses against the most common attacks in different ways? Do they routinely practice weapon sparring drills(as in, basic defenses, scripted action, but not scripted timing or footwork), or is that only practiced once in a while or not at all?

Most of the people who are in forms schools maybe never are going to have the prettiest forms, but they feel inspired by students around them who do, and they may take note of what those students are doing and pick it up and even improve it by finding how it can work for them. Schools that focus on applied fighting skills are the same way.

Quality students who don't strut like pea****s do a lot for a school. Students who strut like pea****s due to their rank/status will attract people who are more concerned with that status than their skills, and the moment they think their skills are good, they will peak and so may the school.

And, related to that, as an instructor, am I strutting like a pea****? Is is a push hands lesson, or is it an excuse for me to talk a lot and show off, with little real learning or practice going on for the students?

If they do the technique correct on me, does it work without me countering it? If not, why?

[mickey]

Greetings,

A classmate once shared that to open a commercial school, you have to create an inside track. There will be those who you try to transmit the at to and there will be those who pay the rent. I did not like the thought of treating people like that. Now, I think he may have had a point. Creating an inside track gives what you are teaching value beyond the generic, making it an attractive feature. Unfortunately, it can completely alienate those who are serious about learning something and it can become a petri dish for cultish behaviors. So, even if the overhead is low for a commercial school, the challenge to fully transmit the art is still there.


mickey

[boxerbilly]

To make it commercially you need to give your client what they want ! That is not always what they need. If ten guys show up wanting self defense and you throw them into traditional training 9 maybe all 10 will walk. If they want to spar and your school does limited time on that or limits what they are allowed to do . They will walk. People pay for what they want.

As others pointed out. Most students will be of the 3-6-9 month variety. The longer you give them what they want the longer they keep paying. These are not people interested in the whole art as you know it. But they are dollars that EXPECT what they want in return for their investment. They are the ones that keep your door open. Otherwise teach out of you garage to 5 guys. You'll make 20-30 bucks a night when you teach.

Young tiny children are what turns dollars in the karate classes. Most stick to the 3 year plan because parents signed a contract. Most hate it. Are miserable. Cry. Don't pay attention. Talk back. Cant tell the right fro their left. Are afraid. Maybe a bully. Those are the real dollar signs for most traditional schools around here.
But the payee got what they want. Tubby Timmy and Meek Mark are finally out of the house and doing something physical and you have been hired on as the PT babysitter. Seems inglorious. But then, more than a few measure glory through their bank account and are very happy to be of service. Millions have been made teaching kids.

[mickey]

Young tiny children are what turns dollars in the karate classes. Most stick to the 3 year plan because parents signed a contract. Most hate it. Are miserable. Cry. Don't pay attention. Talk back. Cant tell the right fro their left. Are afraid. Maybe a bully. Those are the real dollar signs for most traditional schools around here.
But the payee got what they want. Tubby Timmy and Meek Mark are finally out of the house and doing something physical and you have been hired on as the PT babysitter. Seems inglorious. But then, more than a few measure glory through their bank account and are very happy to be of service. Millions have been made teaching kids.

Greetings Billy,

Unfortunately, this is disgustingly true. So we will never be without the Mcdojo. They serve a purpose.

I agree with teaching out of the garage if you want to keep it serious.


mickey

[boxerbilly]

Another huge killer of business that seems to predominate MA that don't have a sporting aspect to it. The teachers hold back. I always believe that is because they don't want anyone better than them in their school. BIG MISTAKE !!! Your ego needs to check itself at the door. As a teacher your ultimate goal should be to make students better than you ever where. Period.

But one see's many teachers with the artistic gi/gown walking around like top dog best killer in the class , etc.

If the NFL hired coaches like that football would always suck. Same for basketball. Boxing. Etc. Understand, you are no longer the player. You are teaching players to be their best. Ideally better than you. That may never happen to most but if your dedicated students after a good length of time are not besting you in some areas, I promise you it is not them.

[Jimbo]

Great points, guys!

I taught my own group for 4 years, but stopped teaching ten years ago. I came to the realization that I'm a much better practitioner than a teacher. While admittedly I am very competent at teaching MA, I was NOT very competent, nor comfortable at, promoting myself/my art commercially.

I would imagine that's true of a lot of people who intend to teach MA. Your business acumen must be at least as highly developed as your knowledge and ability at MA, even more so. You see it a lot; someone with fairly mediocre MA ability and understanding who runs a highly successful chain of commercial schools, because he is a very good businessman. He understands how to promote and market himself and his product. Most likely hires different 'coaches' to teach different aspects of MA for him (grappling, sanda, competitive forms, point tag, push hands, etc.), and he himself essentially becomes a figurehead. His schools will have very professional facilities, have contracts, and are open all day every day. He has no other profession/day job; this IS his livelihood. The school also has dedicated top students who will also make MA their livelihood, take professional business courses (the same that their teacher did), and have an organized business plan to appeal to all types of students, especially kids. They gain experience in the business and in teaching, then go on to open their own branch schools.

I lacked that business savvy, which is why I never had a "brick and mortar" location. My core group was small, but remained steady for the 4 years. They included two black belts in Goju-ryu (coincidentally; both were from different schools). Others came and went. But I couldn't grow my school beyond a core group. I did not understand how to effectively advertise myself or my services. I did not open my teachings to people under 18. I did have my students occasionally enter competitions when they came around, with varying success. Actually, some did very well; one won a championship her first or second time out.

IMO and experience, being a teacher is a LOT harder than being a student. If only instructing, sparring, correcting, etc., we're all there is to it, yes it would be simple. But in reality, to really be a successful teacher, especially nowadays, requires knowledge and competence in MANY things. Also, passing down an art isn't for everyone. It's a lot of time and responsibility that not everyone enjoys taking on. I learned a lot and grew a lot as a MAist from my experience as a teacher. But I personally never felt comfortable as 'Sifu', and never intended on making MA my career.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great points, guys!

I taught my own group for 4 years, but stopped teaching ten years ago. I came to the realization that I'm a much better practitioner than a teacher. While admittedly I am very competent at teaching MA, I was NOT very competent, nor comfortable at, promoting myself/my art commercially.

I would imagine that's true of a lot of people who intend to teach MA. Your business acumen must be at least as highly developed as your knowledge and ability at MA, even more so. You see it a lot; someone with fairly mediocre MA ability and understanding who runs a highly successful chain of commercial schools, because he is a very good businessman. He understands how to promote and market himself and his product. Most likely hires different 'coaches' to teach different aspects of MA for him (grappling, sanda, competitive forms, point tag, push hands, etc.), and he himself essentially becomes a figurehead. His schools will have very professional facilities, have contracts, and are open all day every day. He has no other profession/day job; this IS his livelihood. The school also has dedicated top students who will also make MA their livelihood, take professional business courses (the same that their teacher did), and have an organized business plan to appeal to all types of students, especially kids. They gain experience in the business and in teaching, then go on to open their own branch schools.

I lacked that business savvy, which is why I never had a "brick and mortar" location. My core group was small, but remained steady for the 4 years. They included two black belts in Goju-ryu (coincidentally; both were from different schools). Others came and went. But I couldn't grow my school beyond a core group. I did not understand how to effectively advertise myself or my services. I did not open my teachings to people under 18. I did have my students occasionally enter competitions when they came around, with varying success. Actually, some did very well; one won a championship her first or second time out.

IMO and experience, being a teacher is a LOT harder than being a student. If only instructing, sparring, correcting, etc., we're all there is to it, yes it would be simple. But in reality, to really be a successful teacher, especially nowadays, requires knowledge and competence in MANY things. Also, passing down an art isn't for everyone. It's a lot of time and responsibility that not everyone enjoys taking on. I learned a lot and grew a lot as a MAist from my experience as a teacher. But I personally never felt comfortable as 'Sifu', and never intended on making MA my career.

Much wisdom in this post.

[bawang]

sparring erry day keeps the crazies away

[Cataphract]

You just attract a different kind of crazy. Unless the teacher is of the benevolent dictator type and has a really close eye on everything.

[-N-]

The 20th century was one where we saw the rapid spread of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA, beginning in China with the founding of the Chin Woo and the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute

[...]

for it to survive will it be necessary for it to go back to becoming a family art/sect art as many styles were in before the 20th century?


Chin Woo and Nanjing Kuoshu were all about cutting through the bs that had crept in because of isolated sects and rice bowl commercialization so that real TCMA would survive.

Kiddie daycare, watered down curriculum and standards, catering to the customer to be a commercial success is not TCMA. It's what is destroying TCMA.

[-N-]

The owner of the school where we teach, and his top instructor both were originally from China and were trained there.

They said that they don't see people teach the traditional way we do any more.

Most people don't really want to learn TCMA.

Even the owner said several times he wanted to learn some Mantis from us. I told him he's welcome any time. But he hasn't followed up yet.

If even he's not going to learn, what guy off the street is going to want to learn?

I do really appreciate that his schools are successful. It's because of him that we have such a nice place to train at.

[Jimbo]

The owner of the school where we teach, and his top instructor both were originally from China and were trained there.

They said that they don't see people teach the traditional way we do any more.

Most people don't really want to learn TCMA.

Even the owner said several times he wanted to learn some Mantis from us. I told him he's welcome any time. But he hasn't followed up yet.

If even he's not going to learn, what guy off the street is going to want to learn?

I do really appreciate that his schools are successful. It's because of him that we have such a nice place to train at.

Most people don't even know what TCMA are. It's completely off the radar of what people seeking MA instruction are looking for, which nowadays is mostly MMA/BJJ (for teens and young adults) Krav Maga and kiddie karate. Most don't even know what 'kung fu' is, even though everyone has heard the term 'kung fu'. They use it interchangeably wth 'karate'.

There is even less awareness of what CMA are now than back in the '70s and '80s. Which is ironic, because unlike in the past, nowadays information about virtually anything is available at the click of a button. Never mind that a lot of the info on TCMA online is BS, there is also a lot more good info than was available to anyone at any other time in history. Maybe it's BECAUSE seeing something is so easy now that many people make erroneous assumptions about things they know absolutely nothing about, such as various CMA. You would think there would be MORE awareness, but there really isn't.

[Jimbo]

I do believe there will always be a small few who will love and be dedicated to the various CMA systems. And a few of those few will pass those arts down. Some arts will have more followers and some will have fewer, but as long as an art is worth saving and developing, it will survive and continue evolving, hopefully for the better.

[Faux Newbie]

I think one thing is, let's say you have twenty students. You teach them two hours of material, actual lesson, not talking push ups or anything else.

That material, assuming it's about using it in fighting or body mechanics meant to be trained to do on the fly, will take many hours more of training to entrain.

I know people who attend every class of their teacher, and have new material every day. And those people are not generally very good. They're fit. But they don't have skill.

To run a school, you have to be running classes. Twenty people won't cut it. They are important to it if they are all about learning the system, but they don't need five classes a day, six days a week. They need training time.

So some people see fitness classes as selling out, but fitness classes are beneficial to everyone, including the members learning the system.

Further, the students need sessions that are not about being taught more, but working what they know.

Further, if one is seeking to focus on a particular thing, then one class is not 'focusing'.

Unless one can fill every session of the day with different students, they need to provide the students with the environment to improve their skills, and teaching is not all that is required.

Even within a purely 'traditional' format, there is room for a huge diversity of classes that few take advantage of. One can complain all day about the loss of traditional conditioning exercises, but replacing lesson time with one day in some random month of traditional exercises doesn't really fill that gap as well as establishing a kung fu conditioning class would.

It's very easy for us as teachers to confuse everything we say in class as giving the students a fair chance to experience traditional martial arts, when, in fact, sometimes it is us teachers most in the way of transmitting the art.

[Faux Newbie]

As an example of some of what I'm getting at, at a sanda school, almost every class is going to include some time that you, on your own or with a partner, are working on things you work on EVERY class. Forever. Boxing, the same. Too many schools talk about the importance of their principles, but only train them on special days instead of finding ways of making them an aspect of every class.

Even when you're working something else, you will end up doing a lot of the things you do every class. Forever.

On the other end of what I'm getting at, if running a school, there is really no reason to expect everyone to train by themselves to entrain everything when you could give them the option of attending sessions meant for that in which you barely have to teach, but more get out of the way and let them train what you showed them.

And there is absolutely no reason that one could not design a fitness program geared toward what one does. There is no one who does not benefit from basics. And there is no good argument for not endorsing other types of fitness programs in one's school, even not directly related to the style, but more to general fitness. It's an advantage to everyone. Athleticism is not tied to narrow workout regimes, especially in martial arts. I've seen too many brawlers who, if they just trained cardio, would actually be more naturally another kind of fighter.

[Faux Newbie]

And a defense of the 'figurehead', the person who has a school with a lot of other teachers teaching other martial arts under him or her.

I'm not familiar of one example that is not a person who doesn't absolutely love martial arts. They generally have some involvement in some of those classes, and enjoy the exposure to different ideas.

Further, given that the imagery most of us were inspired by in joining in my era, these were movies depicting the shaolin temple, the jinwoo association, wudang, and emei, all places where there was not a style being taught, but many.

As such, they are a good embodiment, in my opinion, of the spirit of kung fu.

I know not a single lifelong practitioner of martial arts who only learned and respects one style, nor do I know any who were not shaped by more than one. I suspect I'm not alone in this.

On the other hand, I know of a number of schools where the teacher, in their insistence on being the only authority, teaches not only the styles they are best at, but styles they are not notable in, schools that have a base from which they and their students(and the business) would and could benefit from having additional teachers teaching those styles. All in defiance of the 'traditional' conditions under which they learned, as in, learn from the true teachers of this style. Ahem, taiji.

[GeneChing]

You have to follow the link to see the embedded vid. It's kinda cool. :cool:


Researchers are using 3D motion capture to document kung fu before it disappears (http://qz.com/812715/kung-fu-masters-are-working-with-researchers-to-use-3d-motion-capture-to-document-their-art-before-it-disappears/)
WRITTEN BY Siyi Chen
5 hours ago

The art of kung fu is thousands of years old. But the methods to document it haven’t developed much. Knowledge of kung fu is traditionally shared orally, or with simple illustrations. But these old, basic methods are no longer sufficient to preserve this ancient art form, which is dying out because of a dwindling number of practitioners.
So a team came up with a modern way of documenting kung fu, using 3D motion capture. International Guoshu Association, a non-profit organization, launched the “Hong Kong Martial Arts Living Archive” initiative, in collaboration with City University of Hong Kong, to document and study kung fu using digital technology. As you can see in the video above, they’ve started with the Hakka style of kung fu, which is prevalent in southern China. They say the technology can be applied to studying other schools of the practice.

[-N-]

You have to follow the link to see the embedded vid. It's kinda cool. :cool:

Kind of interesting.

But it will take more than just capturing choreography for TCMA to survive.

Just look what has happened with Tai Chi where so many practioners completely have lost connection with any martial context and intention.

[mickey]

Greetings and thank you all for staying on topic.

My journey in TCMA began with once a week class. I had to integrate the martial practice into my life from the beginning in order to make progress. This is something that advanced students usually face, if they ever do. I had the opportunity for solitary practice at the school during the week. The way I was going about it, it was not necessary. This is a very missing component to the martial path. There are too many dojo/dojang/kwoon dependent people out there. It is sad because the journey is truly from within.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Greetings and thank you all for staying on topic.

My journey in TCMA began with once a week class. I had to integrate the martial practice into my life from the beginning in order to make progress. This is something that advanced students usually face, if they ever do. I had the opportunity for solitary practice at the school during the week. The way I was going about it, it was not necessary. This is a very missing component to the martial path. There are too many dojo/dojang/kwoon dependent people out there. It is sad because the journey is truly from within.

mickey

Years ago, before I ever taught my own group, whenever my CLF sifu would go on a rare vacation, the job of helping to teach his then-Sunday class usually fell to me and another advanced student or students. We usually assisted him in teaching anyway. Sunday classes were normally crowded, but almost without exception, nobody else would show up if Sifu wasn't going to be there. It wasn't at all that we couldn't teach or that the other students didn't like the way we taught; it was a Sifu-dependency. "If Sifu won't be there, I'll take the day off." There is a reason why some students make noticeable improvements and development over a relatively short period of time, and some students are around for years and never seem to improve beyond a certain elementary level. It's pretty clear the latter type of students don't train away from the school, either.

[mickey]

Greetings Jimbo,

I agree with you. I have seen that as well.

mickey

[-N-]

"If Sifu won't be there, I'll take the day off."

[...]

It's pretty clear the latter type of students don't train away from the school, either.


Greetings Jimbo,

I agree with you. I have seen that as well.

mickey

Some people don't need much excuse to skip class or training.

Sometimes our teacher would say, "Next week is Xmas/Thanksgiving/New Year. Do you still want to come to the park?"

We always said yes.

On the days that it rained, some students would stand under the trees. A few of us just kept training in the rain.

One year, the San Francisco Examiner newspaper wrote an article about things people do on Super Bowl Sunday instead of watching football. They mentioned practicing kung fu at Golden Gate Park, and showed a picture of the Panhandle.

[mickey]

Some people don't need much excuse to skip class or training.

Sometimes our teacher would say, "Next week is Xmas/Thanksgiving/New Year. Do you still want to come to the park?"

We always said yes.

On the days that it rained, some students would stand under the trees. A few of us just kept training in the rain.

One year, the San Francisco Examiner newspaper wrote an article about things people do on Super Bowl Sunday instead of watching football. They mentioned practicing kung fu at Golden Gate Park, and showed a picture of the Panhandle.

That attitude is the breakfast, lunch and dinner of practice. For some it can be their ever demanding wife.

mickey

[bawang]

REALITY CHECK: all TCMA can be mastered in 6 months. aint nobody got time to be milked for decades by some weird hippy nerd.

REALITY CHECK: TCMA is not a popularity contest. if you wanna be popular you chose the wrong fukin hobby

[Jimbo]

Some people don't need much excuse to skip class or training.

Sometimes our teacher would say, "Next week is Xmas/Thanksgiving/New Year. Do you still want to come to the park?"

We always said yes.

On the days that it rained, some students would stand under the trees. A few of us just kept training in the rain.

One year, the San Francisco Examiner newspaper wrote an article about things people do on Super Bowl Sunday instead of watching football. They mentioned practicing kung fu at Golden Gate Park, and showed a picture of the Panhandle.

One time in Taiwan I went to Mantis class at the park one morning. Traffic was light for Taipei, few people were out and the bus was nearly empty, and as I got there, it was starting to get windy and rainy. VERY windy and rainy. I started doing some stance work when I realized NOBODY else was around. As it got worse, I had to walk the 3 miles or so home; there were almost no more vehicles on the road. It was a typhoon bearing down on Taiwan. Of course, I'd been aware that one was coming for a couple-few days, but had somehow forgotten(!). I finally made it back soaking wet, and was fortunate enough not to get hit by any flying debris.

I suppose I could exaggerate and say I used my kung fu to survive a typhoon. But in actuality, I got caught in a typhoon for the sake of kung fu. :)

[Jimbo]

REALITY CHECK: all TCMA can be mastered in 6 months. aint nobody got time to be milked for decades by some weird hippy nerd.

REALITY CHECK: TCMA is not a popularity contest. if you wanna be popular you chose the wrong fukin hobby

A person can definitely become highly functional in a CMA in 6 months, if he/she is trained/trains for functionality. I wouldn't say they could 'master' it in 6 months. The same as a person cannot master boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc., in 6 months, but they can become highly effective in that time frame IF they train correctly, consistently, and have the potential within them to excel.

Being a CMAist has nothing at all to do with popularity. If someone wants to get that from MA, they are better off going into something more in vogue. Along with partner training, CMA require a greater amount of interest and self-motivation on the part of the individual than many (most?) other categories of MA. The hard fact is that few people have those innate qualities for CMA, so its survival will never be about numbers. And that's OK, too.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Since this thread is about TCMA survival I will not debate with bawang about mastery within the time frame he offered. It would be of benefit to all of us concerned with TCMA survival t. take what he has said seriously.

bawang, please show us your six month schedule/plan/template that will allow one to master CMA.

Thank you,

mickey

[bawang]

Greetings,

Since this thread is about TCMA survival I will not debate with bawang about mastery within the time frame he offered. It would be of benefit to all of us concerned with TCMA survival t. take what he has said seriously.

bawang, please show us your six month schedule/plan/template that will allow one to master CMA.

Thank you,

mickey

Body hitting bag hitting errday lift weights erreday force feed 5 meals a day plus one special exercise plus sparring plus form 5 min a day EASY PEASY LEMON SQUEEZY r u brave 2 tray

[-N-]

Body hitting bag hitting errday lift weights erreday force feed 5 meals a day plus one special exercise plus sparring plus form 5 min a day EASY PEASY LEMON SQUEEZY r u brave 2 tray

That might work if the teacher also constantly beats the **** out of you to correct all the mistakes you will be making.

[bawang]

That might work if the teacher also constantly beats the **** out of you to correct all the mistakes you will be making.

This is high school football level of intensity. It's not student responsibility to get strong tuff it's duty of the teacher to beat iron into steel. Student reflect the teacher
Ur students make mistake because too many form not enough muscles. Remove every form except seven star stance

[mickey]

Body hitting bag hitting errday lift weights erreday force feed 5 meals a day plus one special exercise plus sparring plus form 5 min a day EASY PEASY LEMON SQUEEZY r u brave 2 tray

Okay bawang,

You have been teaching for a while. How many masters have you produced?


mickey

[bawang]

Your autism shoots thru screen like knife they butter. U master kungfu but there is no master. Master denotes the existence of SLAVE. I help many ppl improve as comrades. Right now 2 Taichi instructors
With the way u guys talk thru the years u shud shoot lightning thru ur hands. After so long still feeble frail, life waste that's fine but don't waste life if others of ur students. Life is short Time theft is evil crime

[mickey]

Your autism shoots thru screen like knife they butter. U master kungfu but there is no master. Master denotes the existence of SLAVE. I help many ppl improve as comrades. Right now 2 Taichi instructors
With the way u guys talk thru the years u shud shoot lightning thru ur hands. After so long still feeble frail, life waste that's fine but don't waste life if others of ur students. Life is short Time theft is evil crime

With your 6 month method, over the years of teaching, you only produced two instructors? So much for your 6 month method. I started this thread with serious concern for TCMA. Circus acts like you endanger it. Take your trolling elsewhere, please.

I have to go and kick myself for taking you seriously.

mickey

[bawang]

With your 6 month method, over the years of teaching, you only produced two instructors? So much for your 6 month method. I started this thread with serious concern for TCMA. Circus acts like you endanger it. Take your trolling elsewhere, please.

I have to go and kick myself for taking you seriously.

mickey

Quality over quantity

A herd of pigs does not make a dragon

I don't charge money or act like guru so if someone doesn't train I say you do this yes or no. If no or lie I tell them fuk off
I make a bet. U upload ur doing a **** form right now. I will upload after. I have not done form for 6 yrs

[mickey]

Greetings,

bawang, you made the statement of what can be done in 6 months. A six month master of Taiji? It truly is the end of the world. Notice, I did not say anything about Long fist. Do you have 6 month Long Fist masters?

When it comes to serious training, I agree with you. I completely disagree with your time frame to mastery.


mickey

[bawang]

Greetings,

bawang, you made the statement of what can be done in 6 months. A six month master of Taiji? It truly is the end of the world. Notice, I did not say anything about Long fist. Do you have 6 month Long Fist masters?

When it comes to serious training, I agree with you. I completely disagree with your time frame to mastery.


mickey

Show me your form or a student of yours right now

[mickey]

Greetings bawang,

There is nothing for me to prove to you. You fell on the sword of your own words. And I was not hoping for that.


mickey

[bawang]

you have no qualifications for teaching people and you are talking about teaching. so post a video of your form. you refuse because of shame and embarrassment because you are not good. END OF

[mickey]

I am moving on from interacting with you, bawang. There is no excitement in watching you bleed.

mickey

[bawang]

lol wat a poosy post for 10 years on internet not one video not even tell ppl wat style he train

[-N-]

it's duty of the teacher to beat iron into steel.

Isn't that what I said?


Ur students make mistake because too many form not enough muscles.

Who said anything about forms?

Mistake like not torquing enough into punches and kicks, not throwing combinations, not going in deep enough when attacking, not dropping the weight into the other guy when attacking, dropping the hands, going too wide...


Remove every form except seven star stance

Seven star is transition footwork for power generation, entry to attack, or evasion/neutralization.

Form guys that don't know how to use TCMA will use seven star as a stance. Seven star stance by itself does nothing.

You do Tai Chi? You know this. Or you just trolling because you are bored?

[-N-]

Quality over quantity

A herd of pigs does not make a dragon


That is what a few of us have been saying on this thread.

It's the commercialized herds passing themselves off as real TCMA that are destroying it.

Real TCMA isn't popular.


I don't charge money or act like guru so if someone doesn't train I say you do this yes or no. If no or lie I tell them fuk off

Lol. I posted the same thing a couple years ago. Except I said "gtfo" instead of "fuk off".

[bawang]

Form guys that don't know how to use TCMA will use seven star as a stance. Seven star stance by itself does nothing.

seven star is main fighting stance in many chinese systems

Isn't that what I said?


ya it good


Mistake like not torquing enough into punches and kicks, not throwing combinations, not going in deep enough when attacking, not dropping the weight into the other guy when attacking, dropping the hands, going too wide...


these can be resolved by getting bigger muscles. every problem in life can be resolved by big muscles

That is what a few of us have been saying on this thread.

It's the commercialized herds passing themselves off as real TCMA that are destroying it.

Real TCMA isn't popular.



Lol. I posted the same thing a couple years ago. Except I said "gtfo" instead of "fuk off".

ya. now i add that if u dont milk ur student u can self examine training and teaching methods to speed up progress. once u think about purpose of training and measure results in a logical way u can speed up everythihng



You do Tai Chi? You know this. Or you just trolling because you are bored?

ya. if u show u do form i will show u video me do farm

[-N-]

these can be resolved by getting bigger muscles. every problem in life can be resolved by big muscles

You talk like an American. "Bigger is better."

Guts, strength, skill. Why you ignore 2 out of 3?


now i add that if u dont milk ur student u can self examine training and teaching methods to speed up progress. once u think about purpose of training and measure results in a logical way u can speed up everythihng

TCMA is a good way to die poor.

My teacher charged me $40/month for many years. Later he teach my whole family for free. I felt bad and gave him more money.

I taught for free at the park for 10+ years. No charge except for sweat.

Now we share a space with a commercial school. I made $700 in 2014, $500 in 2015, and even less this year. Actually losing money each year considering travel cost to and from classes.

We try to force feed the students. The only thing we get out of it is to see their ability improve.

Well, also students don't have to practice outside in the rain, and we don't have to find a place to hang an 80lb bag at the park.


if u show u do form i will show u video me do farm

You keep talking about heavybag, weights, and power. So why you always ask to show forms?

My classmates are laughing now. Out of everyone, I probably practice forms the least.

In the 80's and 90's, my teacher didn't particularly focus on forms as well.

[mickey]

Greetings,

One of the things that came to mind that might help TCMA survival might be to have it included in the public educational system. The basic training can be helpful in fighting the issue of obesity that is plaguing children. the trade off is that you will get a group to teach consistently for a number of years. The problem would be regulation and control of your curriculum.

Another would be a return to the Guild structure where you would have people devoting their lives to the preservation of TCMA. This again led me back to a return to a family or sect system.

The third one I am still working on.


mickey

[Jimbo]

TCMA is a good way to die poor.

My teacher charged me $40/month for many years. Later he teach my whole family for free. I felt bad and gave him more money.

I taught for free at the park for 10+ years. No charge except for sweat.

Now we share a space with a commercial school. I made $700 in 2014, $500 in 2015, and even less this year. Actually losing money each year considering travel cost to and from classes.

This is true. I don't personally know ANYBODY who's gotten rich off of TCMA. Teaching it is a minor secondary occupation at best, and for most it's a pastime. Maybe somebody like Wong Tat-Mau can make a good living from TCMA and retire, but that's a very rare exception and requires great business acumen. Anyone who thinks that just teaching TCMA is a great way to milk students of $$$ and get rich is a fool. You teach it because you love it and feel the calling to share it and pass it on to others.

I will point out that a high percentage of people will not value something that is offered for free. Many believe that if you don't place some type of monetary value on what you're offering, then it can't be worth much.

Nobody finds it odd that to learn ANY other category of knowledge or set of skills requires tuition. But for some reason a TCMA teacher should be shamed for charging a fee. In most cases, the fee you're paying is paltry compared to the knowledge and experience the teacher is imparting to you, as long as the teacher is really teaching you.

[bawang]

You keep talking about heavybag, weights, and power. So why you always ask to show forms?

My classmates are laughing now. Out of everyone, I probably practice forms the least.

In the 80's and 90's, my teacher didn't particularly focus on forms as well.

cuz i not do form for 6 years but if i do it will be better than someone who do mainly form. to prove point of correct training and logical training.

You talk like an American. "Bigger is better."

Guts, strength, skill. Why you ignore 2 out of 3?



TCMA is a good way to die poor.

My teacher charged me $40/month for many years. Later he teach my whole family for free. I felt bad and gave him more money.

I taught for free at the park for 10+ years. No charge except for sweat.

Now we share a space with a commercial school. I made $700 in 2014, $500 in 2015, and even less this year. Actually losing money each year considering travel cost to and from classes.

We try to force feed the students. The only thing we get out of it is to see their ability improve

ver gourd your teacher has honer u has honer ur a real man

big muscle is something that asian americans have learned to avoid through cultural sickness. in traditional kung fu, big muscle was always a source of envy and pride and sign of top level martial skill. phobia of big muscles is great evil in chinese martial arts.

despite common stereotype traditional confucian culture did not admire the nerd. traditional chinese culture stereotyped confucian nerds as gay virgins (no lie).

[bawang]

This is true. I don't personally know ANYBODY who's gotten rich off of TCMA. Teaching it is a minor secondary occupation at best, and for most it's a pastime. Maybe somebody like Wong Tat-Mau can make a good living from TCMA and retire, but that's a very rare exception and requires great business acumen. Anyone who thinks that just teaching TCMA is a great way to milk students of $$$ and get rich is a fool. You teach it because you love it and feel the calling to share it and pass it on to others.
oriental martial arts is great to milk people IF you are a psychopath.


I will point out that a high percentage of people will not value something that is offered for free. Many believe that if you don't place some type of monetary value on what you're offering, then it can't be worth much.
they are talking animals and should not learn chinese martial arts. it will only harm the art.


Nobody finds it odd that to learn ANY other category of knowledge or set of skills requires tuition. But for some reason a TCMA teacher should be shamed for charging a fee. In most cases, the fee you're paying is paltry compared to the knowledge and experience the teacher is imparting to you, as long as the teacher is really teaching you.
in traditional chinese society ancient times a TCMA teacher can charge exorbant fees if he is a retired military officer with confirms kills. then the student can get a head start to advance in military career, or gain great prestige.
in other words in modern times i would pay a former seal a large amount of money no problem to trian me in seal training.
i have no problem paying chuck liddel big money to train me in fighting.
i wouldnt pay big money to pay random skinny bald dude to teach me to dance. at the end of the day, a dance can be mastered for free.

[-N-]

in other words in modern times i would pay a former seal a large amount of money no problem to trian me in seal training.
i have no problem paying chuck liddel big money to train me in fighting.
i wouldnt pay big money to pay random skinny bald dude to teach me to dance. at the end of the day, a dance can be mastered for free.

Funny story...

Former south american special forces guy came to try our class. Medium height but bulky and strong.

I actually wondered if he was going to be one of those people with an attitude problem that wants to prove how tough he is.

Halfway through the drills, he gassed and had sit down for the rest of the class.

He came back to the next class but just watched.

He said he wanted to get back in shape. Then made some random talk about how he used to poke his fingers through sheetrock walls.

We never saw him again after that.

I actually tried to encourage him. "Take your time. Don't push yourself so hard that you break something. Just keep working and moving. You'll get there. If you don't stay active, it's all over."

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have more thought about the introduction of TCMA into the educational system and that may actually work. Much like the school for performing arts. We can have schools that emphasize martial study along with the regular academic curriculum. This could actually work.

My third suggestion would be the establishment of a national TCMA conservatory. The fault with this would be in that in the attempt to be inclusive there will be those who will be still left out. Still thinking on this one.

mickey

[-N-]

Greetings,

I have more thought about the introduction of TCMA into the educational system and that may actually work. Much like the school for performing arts. We can have schools that emphasize martial study along with the regular academic curriculum. This could actually work.

mickey

People make careers in performing arts.

What would be the driver for teaching TCMA in a similar way?

[-N-]

My third suggestion would be the establishment of a national TCMA conservatory. The fault with this would be in that in the attempt to be inclusive there will be those who will be still left out. Still thinking on this one.
My sister studied at the Conservatory of Music.

Yo Yo Ma used to stand outside the door when she practiced. He would have tears in his eyes from listening to her on the piano.

She became a concert pianist, played for symphonies, and the ballet.

She says all the same things about teaching music that I say about teaching TCMA.

There's a reason for the expression "starving artist".

Probably even more so for starving martial artist.

[SevenStar]

Seven star by himself does nothing.



I'm offended! :D:D

[SevenStar]

Greetings,

One of the things that came to mind that might help TCMA survival might be to have it included in the public educational system. The basic training can be helpful in fighting the issue of obesity that is plaguing children. the trade off is that you will get a group to teach consistently for a number of years. The problem would be regulation and control of your curriculum.



I've actually tried this. Trying to start it again now. it was a beautiful thing. But there are a couple of things here:

1. you won't make it part of the educational system per se - it won't be a class, unless it is a charter school, where I actually did have a class. In the public system, they are already cutting classes and PE is down to one day a week in the schools in my city. what I WAS able to do was become part of the after care program. So, I'd teach the kids in aftercare who signed up for an hour.

2. the schools may not like paying for it. I was getting paid by the city school board and was cut during school consolidations and budget cutting. I was teaching in about 8 schools around the city. The charter school I mentioned above was different - that class was part of a grant someone else had for fitness training and health education, which sparked my idea, an idea that I am working on getting started now.

3. you may have to change the curriculum, teaching style, etc when dealing with kids, especially if you have a large group. kids have a short attention span and DO NOT like repetition. more than 10 - 15 minutes of doing the same thing and you lose them, especially in a big group and their friends being with them. you have to constantly keep them going and keep them doing something different.

[SevenStar]

This is true. I don't personally know ANYBODY who's gotten rich off of TCMA. Teaching it is a minor secondary occupation at best, and for most it's a pastime. Maybe somebody like Wong Tat-Mau can make a good living from TCMA and retire, but that's a very rare exception and requires great business acumen. Anyone who thinks that just teaching TCMA is a great way to milk students of $$$ and get rich is a fool. You teach it because you love it and feel the calling to share it and pass it on to others.

I will point out that a high percentage of people will not value something that is offered for free. Many believe that if you don't place some type of monetary value on what you're offering, then it can't be worth much.

Nobody finds it odd that to learn ANY other category of knowledge or set of skills requires tuition. But for some reason a TCMA teacher should be shamed for charging a fee. In most cases, the fee you're paying is paltry compared to the knowledge and experience the teacher is imparting to you, as long as the teacher is really teaching you.

far from rich, but when I had my program going in the city schools, I was getting about 3,000 a month, which is good for a TMA teacher. It was free to the kids, so I wasn't milking the parents, and It permitted me to teach full time and not have to worry about supplementing with another job to pay the bills. I think there is a way to make money doing it, you just have to find what works for you. I'm good with kids so it was a good fit. But no, it's definitely not realistic to expect to be able to retire from what you make teaching TCMA.

[mickey]

Greetings -N- and SKM,

-N-

The driving force is that it is something that you are passionate about, that you love to do and that you want to have a lifelong relationship with. I have seen many people who have pursued the academics, got the degrees and the good jobs while putting their real passions on the back burners or down the toilet. And when the opportunity comes to pursue their passion, they are so past their prime they can only dabble with it. There is nothing wrong in having a double major or a minor in martial studies. That way you can still get a good job and still pursue what you love.

SKM,

I did have the thought of rebranding TCMA as a martial philosophy. It would work well in that way.


mickey

[SevenStar]

There's a reason for the expression "starving artist".

Probably even more so for starving martial artist.

There is actually a person in my city working on a starving artist housing complex. It offers nice, yet very low cost housing to artists of all varieties. I happened to run into the person one night and she gave me a brochure. Out of curiosity, I asked her if martial artists were included under their designation as artists and she said yes. Something like that could be a huge benefit towards promoting arts of all kinds in any city.

[mickey]

Greetings SevenStar,

I think charter schools are the way to go when it comes to specialized interests. There is much talk against them. People are not looking at the possibilities. For children, I would try to develop a curriculum that would initially keep it light and fun while rotating other sport activities with it.

I would also consider the use of educational vouchers that would allow for students to train with those outside the educational system who have an approved program of study. Field experience should be encouraged, allowing those students to travel cross country and abroad to get closer to the well of their discipline.

mickey

[mickey]

I forgot something: money,

There is ALOT of money out there. Corporations are always looking for ways to spread "good will". Cultural preservation is a magnet for such funds; so, maybe cultural anthropology and preservation just may be the field of study that embraces martial disciplines, dance, ritual, social and spiritual practices. This could be a great thing.

mickey

[SevenStar]

Greetings SevenStar,

I think charter schools are the way to go when it comes to specialized interests. There is much talk against them. People are not looking at the possibilities. For children, I would try to develop a curriculum that would initially keep it light and fun while rotating other sport activities with it.

I would also consider the use of educational vouchers that would allow for students to train with those outside the educational system who have an approved program of study. Field experience should be encouraged, allowing those students to travel cross country and abroad to get closer to the well of their discipline.

mickey

The problem with the charter schools, as with all schools in my city is funding. Yes, that is what I did. I was teaching techniques, arranged a demo at the end of each semester so the parents could see what the kids were learning - that gave the kids some focus because they wanted to impress their parents. Also, I would include other things to break the "monotony" for them. Instead of the normal warm ups and line drills, we might play dodgeball for a few minutes one day, freeze tag another. I added certain things into it, for example, with freeze tag, you had to hold horse stance or some other posture until you were unfrozen.

I didn't arrange trips to other countries - would be difficult with kids - but there was an effort to get the kids to a local kung fu school so they could have the experience of training in a traditional school setting.

[SevenStar]

I forgot something: money,

There is ALOT of money out there. Corporations are always looking for ways to spread "good will". Cultural preservation is a magnet for such funds; so, maybe cultural anthropology and preservation just may be the field of study that embraces martial disciplines, dance, ritual, social and spiritual practices.

mickey

Grant money. that is the best way to get into something like that. you will not do well trying to fund yourself on student tuition, but if someone else is footing the bill for the students to learn, It can work. That was the driver for the program in the charter school. It was money from a grant to create a physical fitness program.

[mickey]

Hi SevenStar,

I would not recommend travel for children, I was thinking along the college level.

It is good to know that there is someone out there already trying to do something. Do you have concerns about being able to transmit you art fully at this time? Do you see that as a possibility at this time?

mickey

[SevenStar]

Hi SevenStar,

I would not recommend travel for children, I was thinking along the college level.

It is good to know that there is someone out there already trying to do something. Do you have concerns about being able to transmit you art fully at this time? Do you see that as a possibility at this time?

mickey

in that setting, transmitting a complete art wouldn't be a thought. if a grant is lost, school loses funding, kid transfers schools, program not being renewed, kids not practicing over summer vacation, etc - there are too many factors that would prevent an entire system from being taught. But they learn something, and they take it with them forever. I recently saw a kid working in mcdonald's. he wondered where he recognized me from, then he realized - "I still practice some of what you taught me, mainly the stances," he said. He was in my class at the charter school several years ago, but he never had the opportunity to train anywhere because his parents wouldn't pay for classes anywhere, and since he transferred schools, he wasn't in my class anymore.

[-N-]

The driving force is that it is something that you are passionate about, that you love to do and that you want to have a lifelong relationship with.


I forgot something: money,

That's what I meant. What is the driving force for society to direct resources to support and promote education in TCMA?

And everything that Sevenstar said about grants.

Even now across Higher Ed, arts and humanities are struggling under the drive to support and promote STEM. And I am a STEM guy saying this.

[Jimbo]

If there were a TCMA program for school kids, which style/system would it be? And how would the school know what the standards are? If there were a school TKD group, there are clear ways to check the credentials of the prospective teacher, if he/she is certified by the WTF (not the Internet acronym) or whatever. TCMA are different. In many instances, the only way to vet a CMA teacher is for him to really demonstrate his knowledge and skill. How could school officials be made to understand or accept that, or even what that would entail?

Again, which style? Or would there be a watered-down, simplified, generic system developed specifically for schools? Kind of like what happened around the 1930s, when karate was introduced to school children in Japan; the methods were modified/simplified for mass consumption, with certain martial aspects deleted from the curriculum.

It would have to be clear that there are no religious connotations to it. North of where I live, there is a high-income school district that incorporated a yoga program for children, and there was a legal issue brought up by Christian parents convinced that the yoga program was teaching their kids 'Eastern values' contrary to their religion. Even though the school district and the kids themselves stated there was no religious indoctrination going on.

[-N-]

In many instances, the only way to vet a CMA teacher is for him to really demonstrate his knowledge and skill. How could school officials be made to understand or accept that, or even what that would entail?

Again, which style? Or would there be a watered-down, simplified, generic system developed specifically for schools? Kind of like what happened around the 1930s, when karate was introduced to school children in Japan; the methods were modified/simplified for mass consumption, with certain martial aspects deleted from the curriculum.


Brings back an old memory from high school in the 70's...

The school encouraged the students to join/create clubs.

I got permission to create a martial arts club where all types were welcome. "In Japan, they get to do Kendo and Karate at school. We don't have anything like that here. We should be able to etc etc..."

We got assigned a club sponsor, the head of the ROTC program - Sgt. Yoshida(because Japanese and military, I guess).

We got to use school facilities and do open sparring.

A few weeks later, I got called into Sgt. Yoshida's office where he proceeded to chew my @ss out.

We weren't supposed to be sparring, and I had "completely misled him" about what our activities were to be.

Actually, we had never discussed the activities. He apparently assumed we would all sit around talking about martial arts. And in my mind, we were going to "do" martial arts, not just sit around and talk about it.

Anyway, we basically got shut down. So we just got together outside of school sponsorship instead.

So much for my small attempt at promoting MA at school.

[Jimbo]

He must have seen the original Woodstock documentary (there is a brief part where some hippies are shown practicing Tai Chi) and imagined you disseminating Eastern philosophy with a little bit of movement to the students, lol.

[-N-]

He must have seen the original Woodstock documentary (there is a brief part where some hippies are shown practicing Tai Chi) and imagined you disseminating Eastern philosophy with a little bit of movement to the students, lol.

Seriously, Japanese... sergeant... ROTC... a little scary to us kids...

Couldn't even begin to imagine that he expected us just to talk and not do.

I think the Principal got wind of the sparring and had insurance concerns.

[Jimbo]

Seriously, Japanese... sergeant... ROTC... a little scary to us kids...

Couldn't even begin to imagine that he expected us just to talk and not do.

I think the Principal got wind of the sparring and had insurance concerns.

We Japanese guys have a scary reputation...:)

I get it. Back in the late '70s, I trained at a sh!to-ryu dojo for about 18 months under a very militant sensei from Japan who wasn't above being physically abusive when correcting people at times. Personality-wise, he was a bit reminiscent of the Japanese teachers in Fist of Fury. But he was bigger and taller than most of the teachers from Japan, which magnified the effect. He was especially hard on you if you were of Japanese descent, as if he was somehow expecting more from you.

Insurance would be a big issue when teaching KF at school, especially K-12. Some basic training in traditional CMA might not be good for very young children and could even be harmful to their development, such as heavy stance training, 3-star, etc. Plus, they would most likely hate such painful, boring training. It would pretty much have to be a very simplified introductory course, IMO. I'm not trying to be discouraging, but realistically, even if such a program could be implemented, it may or may not ensure long-term growth for TCMA.

[SevenStar]

If there were a TCMA program for school kids, which style/system would it be? And how would the school know what the standards are? If there were a school TKD group, there are clear ways to check the credentials of the prospective teacher, if he/she is certified by the WTF (not the Internet acronym) or whatever. TCMA are different. In many instances, the only way to vet a CMA teacher is for him to really demonstrate his knowledge and skill. How could school officials be made to understand or accept that, or even what that would entail?

Again, which style? Or would there be a watered-down, simplified, generic system developed specifically for schools? Kind of like what happened around the 1930s, when karate was introduced to school children in Japan; the methods were modified/simplified for mass consumption, with certain martial aspects deleted from the curriculum.

It would have to be clear that there are no religious connotations to it. North of where I live, there is a high-income school district that incorporated a yoga program for children, and there was a legal issue brought up by Christian parents convinced that the yoga program was teaching their kids 'Eastern values' contrary to their religion. Even though the school district and the kids themselves stated there was no religious indoctrination going on.

style - who cares? the more the merrier, I'd say. let's say I have 3 schools and I teach them bak mei. at my other three schools I have someone teaching them southern mantis. at two other schools, I have someone teaching shuai chiao. that makes for an awesome mass demo for the parents and the schools. look at aftercare programs in schools now. for example in my city, there are programs that teach African dance, some teaching hip hop, some teaching zumba. doesn't matter what they are teaching and the students could really care less. they are doing something different, they are being active and many of those kids are getting exposure to other cultures and things they ordinarily would not have said exposure to. I was teaching cma. there are several schools here with people teaching tkd and karate.

in terms of legitimacy of the instructor, there would need to be someone qualified to determine that if it were going to be a city wide, state wide, etc program.

watered down can be a relative term and also would depend on the instructor. I wouldn't show them breaking applications and probably not locks. that is common - in judo kids are not allowed to arm bar either. it's a safety precaution. you aren't going to be teaching them an entire system, there isn't enough time. you don't have to water anything down, though. I can teach kids all of the punches, blocks, kicks, etc. explain basic principles and then show them a basic form. with only a couple of hours per week, a few months out of the year, that may be the most you get. kids that are involved multiple semesters will learn more. but they can all have a decent grasp of basics and learning a form gives them something to achieve.

I agree with you on conveying the lack of religious connotation, however, I never had a single parent ask me about it. I thought that was odd.

[SevenStar]

Insurance would be a big issue when teaching KF at school, especially K-12. Some basic training in traditional CMA might not be good for very young children and could even be harmful to their development, such as heavy stance training, 3-star, etc. Plus, they would most likely hate such painful, boring training. It would pretty much have to be a very simplified introductory course, IMO. I'm not trying to be discouraging, but realistically, even if such a program could be implemented, it may or may not ensure long-term growth for TCMA.

boring the kids is always a concern. attention span is too short. we never held a stance longer than 30 seconds. the ones who wanted to try for a minute, I would let them. I didn't have younger kids doing sparring, 3 star drills or anything contact related. I would argue that it DOES encourage growth. when they like it, they tell the parents, who then inquire. The demo had parents inquiring on their own. In addition, you have a lot of kids getting exposure to the arts this way. I taught about 250 - 300 kids a year.

[Jimbo]

boring the kids is always a concern. attention span is too short. we never held a stance longer than 30 seconds. the ones who wanted to try for a minute, I would let them. I didn't have younger kids doing sparring, 3 star drills or anything contact related. I would argue that it DOES encourage growth. when they like it, they tell the parents, who then inquire. The demo had parents inquiring on their own. In addition, you have a lot of kids getting exposure to the arts this way. I taught about 250 - 300 kids a year.

That is good.

One definitely needs to have a special knack for relating to kids in regards to teaching MA. Admittedly, I do not. Back in the '70s when I was training karate, the way I was taught would be considered borderline abuse today, and would not be accepted. Back then, it was just the way it was, because MA schools were more adult-oriented at the time. Nowadays, kids are the bread-and-butter money students in (most?) MA schools, so that relatability is essential for a teacher. Which would be invaluable for introducing KF as part of a school activity.

[SevenStar]

That is good.

One definitely needs to have a special knack for relating to kids in regards to teaching MA. Admittedly, I do not. Back in the '70s when I was training karate, the way I was taught would be considered borderline abuse today, and would not be accepted. Back then, it was just the way it was, because MA schools were more adult-oriented at the time. Nowadays, kids are the bread-and-butter money students in (most?) MA schools, so that relatability is essential for a teacher. Which would be invaluable for introducing KF as part of a school activity.

Agreed. I'm different with MY kids. they hold stances longer. they do more calisthenics. they do the repetition. I take them to the boxing gym. they do mitts and bag work with me and we will "spar" - they can hit me as hard as they want, I'll only tap them when I see openings.

[bawang]

if you teach kids to appreciate hard work they will appreciate hard work, they are malleable.

theres nothing wrong with exploiting kids and teaching them garbage to milk money, as long as you uphold high standard for adults and look for special kids to teach real things

[-N-]

theres nothing wrong with exploiting kids and teaching them garbage to milk money

The schools that do that, also promote those kids into "instructors" as part of the milking.

The parents love it. You can see crowds of these proud parents bringing their kids to class and staying to video their little monks in training.

Propagates garbage, and gives kf a bad name. Then we get endless forum discussions about why kf doesn't work.

We've had more than one of this type of "instructor" join our group and have to start all over from square one.

[bawang]

The schools that do that, also promote those kids into "instructors" as part of the milking.

The parents love it. You can see crowds of these proud parents bringing their kids to class and staying to video their little monks in training.

Propagates garbage, and gives kf a bad name. Then we get endless forum discussions about why kf doesn't work.

We've had more than one of this type of "instructor" join our group and have to start all over from square one.

well thats ur problem right der giving actual authority to those ppl

if someone actually tries to make a career out of kung fu instruction with no higher education then theres no turning back. u gotta do wat u gotta do or wait tables.

[Kellen Bassette]

if you teach kids to appreciate hard work they will appreciate hard work, they are malleable.


This is true. My ****her was taking me with him on side jobs when I was 5 years old, I literally did manual labor for as long as I can remember. Everyone I knew who was raised like this ended up being ambitious and hardworking in life. On the other hand so many kids I've seen raised in front of TV's and video games have grown up as slackers, unambitious, living with parents in their 20's...The culture kids are raised in has a lot to do with it. The home culture too, not just the culture of the society.

No reason kids shouldn't spar. Keep things under control, don't mismatch them. If one can't handle it, or doesn't want to, take him out. When one kid is completely dominate of the rest, have him spar with adults so he doesn't hurt the others. They appreciate that, it is recognition and motivation for them.

In Thailand 8 year olds fight full pro rules, once a week. I would say they have proven that method of teaching as effective.

[Jimbo]

This is true. My ****her was taking me with him on side jobs when I was 5 years old, I literally did manual labor for as long as I can remember. Everyone I knew who was raised like this ended up being ambitious and hardworking in life. On the other hand so many kids I've seen raised in front of TV's and video games have grown up as slackers, unambitious, living with parents in their 20's...The culture kids are raised in has a lot to do with it. The home culture too, not just the culture of the society.

No reason kids shouldn't spar. Keep things under control, don't mismatch them. If one can't handle it, or doesn't want to, take him out. When one kid is completely dominate of the rest, have him spar with adults so he doesn't hurt the others. They appreciate that, it is recognition and motivation for them.

In Thailand 8 year olds fight full pro rules, once a week. I would say they have proven that method of teaching as effective.

I agree with most of your points, but IMO the example of Thai kids fighting is incompatible. They fight pro from such a young age because they have no other options for themselves or for their families (parents, siblings) back home. It's not a hobby for them. Many (the vast majority?) will never become educated for any other profession, and their fighting careers are usually over in their 20s. After which they can hopefully become coaches, because very few (if any?) will ever become rich from it. So while it is a very effective method for teaching young kids to fight, it's not really comparable to teaching kung fu to kids who have many other activities and goals (education, career and recreational) in their lives.

[Kellen Bassette]

IMO the example of Thai kids fighting is incompatible.

My point isn't that that is the ideal scenario, it's certainly not. My point is kids can appreciate hard work when they are raised in that culture.

This thread is about TCMA surviving and the main concern everyone seems to have is watering it down. If you remove or water down the hard work aspect of Gong Fu, what's the point of preserving it? Gong Fu has to get over the quantity thing and focus on quality. Better for it to be a small, underground cult than to regress into some sort of TKD after school daycare.

[bawang]

My point isn't that that is the ideal scenario, it's certainly not. My point is kids can appreciate hard work when they are raised in that culture.

This thread is about TCMA surviving and the main concern everyone seems to have is watering it down. If you remove or water down the hard work aspect of Gong Fu, what's the point of preserving it? Gong Fu has to get over the quantity thing and focus on quality. Better for it to be a small, underground cult than to regress into some sort of TKD after school daycare.
only selling point of kung fu for decades was that it was supposedly superior to western fighting with higher standards and rigorous training. to commercialize and casualize kung fu is to admit to FRAUD.

[Kellen Bassette]

only selling point of kung fu for decades was that it was supposedly superior to western fighting with higher standards and rigorous training. to commercialize and casualize kung fu is to admit to FRAUD.

TKD is by far the most successful, commercialized martial art in the world. All it's accomplishments have been from good marketing and business savvy, not from fighting reputation. If you bring TCMA to that point, is there really anything traditional left to it?

[Jimbo]

My point isn't that that is the ideal scenario, it's certainly not. My point is kids can appreciate hard work when they are raised in that culture.

This thread is about TCMA surviving and the main concern everyone seems to have is watering it down. If you remove or water down the hard work aspect of Gong Fu, what's the point of preserving it? Gong Fu has to get over the quantity thing and focus on quality. Better for it to be a small, underground cult than to regress into some sort of TKD after school daycare.

This is one of the reasons why, when I was teaching, I only taught adults, 18+. Which might be viewed as a commercial 'weak point' as a teacher. I personally don't mind it at all if kung fu has only limited popularity, as long as there is quality. Obviously, quality trumps quantity every time, not only regarding numbers of students, but in the sheer amount of material to be taught/practiced.

[SevenStar]

No reason kids shouldn't spar. Keep things under control, don't mismatch them. If one can't handle it, or doesn't want to, take him out. When one kid is completely dominate of the rest, have him spar with adults so he doesn't hurt the others. They appreciate that, it is recognition and motivation for them.

In Thailand 8 year olds fight full pro rules, once a week. I would say they have proven that method of teaching as effective.

Ordinarily, I'd agree, however in a school setting, that would be a no no. waivers or not, that one kid crying because he thinks he got hurt is all that is needed to shut a program down.

[SevenStar]

My point isn't that that is the ideal scenario, it's certainly not. My point is kids can appreciate hard work when they are raised in that culture.

This thread is about TCMA surviving and the main concern everyone seems to have is watering it down. If you remove or water down the hard work aspect of Gong Fu, what's the point of preserving it? Gong Fu has to get over the quantity thing and focus on quality. Better for it to be a small, underground cult than to regress into some sort of TKD after school daycare.


1. there can be hard work done without aspects like sparring. They still work, they still sweat. but sparring and schools don't mix.

2. the preservation here is in the spreading of knowledge of it's existence. You don't know what you don't know. These kids don't know a lot of these arts exist. They know about mma because it's all over the tv now. We're talking about a school program. There are always kids coming and going, classes are once or twice a week, about 45 mins - there is little chance of any kid learning an entire system in a school program. The purpose is not that. if you spark their interest, they may wish to continue training outside of the school at some point. by teaching this to 250 - 300 kids per year, that is several hundred more kids per year learning about Chinese arts, leaving an impression of it in their minds. If they want to pursue the arts later in life, they now know this is an option. "I remember I took kung fu in second grade" - that's where they are likely to return.

3. the small underground cult dies. some styles probably should die out. Natural selection at play, I guess. but some styles that SHOULD be preserved are subject to that also, simply because they are not accessible.

[SevenStar]

only selling point of kung fu for decades was that it was supposedly superior to western fighting with higher standards and rigorous training. to commercialize and casualize kung fu is to admit to FRAUD.

Serious question - what is the selling point now? thai boxers, bjj guys, wrestlers and boxers train just as hard. perhaps not as much depth, but the training is as intense.

[bawang]

Serious question - what is the selling point now? thai boxers, bjj guys, wrestlers and boxers train just as hard. perhaps not as much depth, but the training is as intense.

NOTHING

which is why kung fu as a subculture has died out already in the usa. which is as it should be, because western people in its current state should not be attracted to kung fu. only the right kind should.

[Kellen Bassette]

1. there can be hard work done without aspects like sparring. They still work, they still sweat. but sparring and schools don't mix.

2. the preservation here is in the spreading of knowledge of it's existence. You don't know what you don't know. These kids don't know a lot of these arts exist. They know about mma because it's all over the tv now. We're talking about a school program. There are always kids coming and going, classes are once or twice a week, about 45 mins - there is little chance of any kid learning an entire system in a school program. The purpose is not that. if you spark their interest, they may wish to continue training outside of the school at some point. by teaching this to 250 - 300 kids per year, that is several hundred more kids per year learning about Chinese arts, leaving an impression of it in their minds. If they want to pursue the arts later in life, they now know this is an option. "I remember I took kung fu in second grade" - that's where they are likely to return.

3. the small underground cult dies. some styles probably should die out. Natural selection at play, I guess. but some styles that SHOULD be preserved are subject to that also, simply because they are not accessible.

Martial arts should not be taught in public schools. It is impossible to do so without watering it down to the point of worthlessness. Far better off letting them play dodgeball than to have kids who don't want to be there forced to stand in lines doing basics or memorize a form.

[SevenStar]

Martial arts should not be taught in public schools. It is impossible to do so without watering it down to the point of worthlessness. Far better off letting them play dodgeball than to have kids who don't want to be there forced to stand in lines doing basics or memorize a form.

Being that I have conducted such a program, I wholeheartedly disagree. I have had kids from schools I taught in come up to me and thank me, who tell me they still practice what I taught them, who say they had no interest in anything physical before training with me, who pursued martial arts further because of my classes. They performed stance training, they did line drills up and down the floor, they did pushups, squats, etc. and as long as you know how to keep a kids attention, they do want to be there.

I have a buddy who successfully ran capoeira classes in the school system here as well. There are also guys (though I don't know them personally) who teach karate and tkd.

[Northwind]

I doubt actual "family," but I do see the distinctive lines of divergence happening. And it seems a bit evident even within this thread: Progressive-Modern-TCMA and Traditional-TCMA.

Seems we might need to come up with some updated classification names :P

[MightyB]

I do believe there will always be a small few who will love and be dedicated to the various CMA systems. And a few of those few will pass those arts down. Some arts will have more followers and some will have fewer, but as long as an art is worth saving and developing, it will survive and continue evolving, hopefully for the better.

That's how I see the long term survival of TCMA too Jimbo.

I think the best approach for a serious practitioner is to not give a f*** about trying to find commercial success as a martial arts school owner and instead find a profitable day job to support their martial habit.

A lot of commercial success is due to location. If you're in a city with a large population and you teach good sh** and have a visible and nice facility, you'll get students. Keeping them may be an issue - but you'll get them through the door. You need to learn how to teach and it's not simply being good at a martial art or having the best lineage. You also have to have a personality that people want to be around. The white eyebrow guy from Kill Bill made for a nice movie character, but anyone acting like that in real life probably wouldn't attract many students. The thing is to find balance. Personally, I wouldn't want to make a living teaching kids. That would suuuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkkkk balls.

[-N-]

That's how I see the long term survival of TCMA too Jimbo.

I think the best approach for a serious practitioner is to not give a f*** about trying to find commercial success as a martial arts school owner and instead find a profitable day job to support their martial habit.

Picked up 5 students in the past couple weeks, which was a big surprise for us.

One of them is Korean and grew up in a martial arts family. His dad was an instructor and trained him from a young age for competition. He got out of martial arts(sucks when your dad is the teacher) for many years but wanted to train again.

The student and his gf joined after he looked at 4 other schools.

He said he could tell from our attention to detail when teaching that we would be the best school for them.

[boxerbilly]

That's how I see the long term survival of TCMA too Jimbo.

I think the best approach for a serious practitioner is to not give a f*** about trying to find commercial success as a martial arts school owner and instead find a profitable day job to support their martial habit.

A lot of commercial success is due to location. If you're in a city with a large population and you teach good sh** and have a visible and nice facility, you'll get students. Keeping them may be an issue - but you'll get them through the door. You need to learn how to teach and it's not simply being good at a martial art or having the best lineage. You also have to have a personality that people want to be around. The white eyebrow guy from Kill Bill made for a nice movie character, but anyone acting like that in real life probably wouldn't attract many students. The thing is to find balance. Personally, I wouldn't want to make a living teaching kids. That would suuuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkkkk balls.

LOL. Kids can be pretty cool. But yeah they can be a handful. Just look at what Gene has to put up with when people pm him throwing tantrums and foul. Having to monitor bullies. And make sure no one crosses the line to far by posting hate **** because we are not totally out of the tissue box ***** period. But when we are.....DOOM.


Really great post as a whole.

[boxerbilly]

Just kidding guys. I think you all are special.

[bawang]

Picked up 5 students in the past couple weeks, which was a big surprise for us.

One of them is Korean and grew up in a martial arts family. His dad was an instructor and trained him from a young age for competition. He got out of martial arts(sucks when your dad is the teacher) for many years but wanted to train again.

The student and his gf joined after he looked at 4 other schools.

He said he could tell from our attention to detail when teaching that we would be the best school for them.

im jelly bro californee sounds like immigrant heaven u even have multiple kung fu schools

[-N-]

im jelly bro californee sounds like immigrant heaven u even have multiple kung fu schools

Doesn't matter how many schools if they are all strip mall day care centers.

I thought you don't like dirty Cantonese cheaters selling fake rice bowl kf?

[bawang]

Doesn't matter how many schools if they are all strip mall day care centers.

I thought you don't like dirty Cantonese cheaters selling fake rice bowl kf?

beggars cannot be choosers. i just ver ver ronery

gene when r u gonna sponsor me for tigerclaw bro i wanna compete bro

[-N-]

Your Chilese brothers welcome you here.

[Jimbo]

That's how I see the long term survival of TCMA too Jimbo.

I think the best approach for a serious practitioner is to not give a f*** about trying to find commercial success as a martial arts school owner and instead find a profitable day job to support their martial habit.

A lot of commercial success is due to location. If you're in a city with a large population and you teach good sh** and have a visible and nice facility, you'll get students. Keeping them may be an issue - but you'll get them through the door. You need to learn how to teach and it's not simply being good at a martial art or having the best lineage. You also have to have a personality that people want to be around. The white eyebrow guy from Kill Bill made for a nice movie character, but anyone acting like that in real life probably wouldn't attract many students. The thing is to find balance. Personally, I wouldn't want to make a living teaching kids. That would suuuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkkkk balls.

Good points, MightyB.

Most of the successful MA schools that aren't MMA or BJJ that I see are dominated by kiddie classes. I'm not really certain when that started becoming the norm. The 1990s? Post-2K? I remember when MA was adult-dominated. I don't know if many MA schools, Chinese style or otherwise, still have large, strong adult classes. There are several branch schools of a very visible kung fu franchise in my county that seem very commercially successful. They also have all the bells and whistles in terms of facilities. Many people like that, plus the "professionalism". But personally I would never have trained there, for various personal reasons.

I sometimes see my next-door neighbors' kids in their karate uniforms after school. The dojang they go to is a large one that seems to cater strictly to kids. Nobody in my neighborhood has any idea that I even train MA, much less used to teach it.

[Surf-Rider]

It may be a bit late to jump in now on this but the topic of TCMA survival is very interesting and important.

I have been teaching CMA since the early 90's and the times have really changed. It is true what MightyB said, personality is very Important. I have seen great martial artist try teaching but they don't really like people. Having a school is completely different than teaching someone personally. You are in the people business when you open a school. I read somewhere that "people don't really care what you know until they know you care." Therefore, you need to have an inviting personality in order to have people keep their interest and keep coming back to class.

I also agree with MightyB that making a living teaching kids suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks! Only adults can understand the amount of effort required in the regular practice of the cma. Therefore, the survival is based on how many adults we can inspirer to commit to the learning and practice. I think that many people try MMA or BJJ because they think it is something they can learn and use immediately, unlike the traditional arts that take a long time. I believe that MMA and BJJ is starting to slowly lose it's momentum. People are starting to realize that to gain any real skills requires hard work, time and effort, regardless of style.

So, back to the question, "how does the TCMA survive for future generations to learn?" It MUST BE TAUGHT. Doesn't matter if it is in the park, a basement, a garage, or a location. Of course a location will require the most work. People ask me all the time that they want to open a school and how should they go about it. My answer is always the same, start small. Start in your garage and then move into a small location once you have a enough "paying" students to afford a place. The problem is most people want to start with a nice big location. They believe that big locations will bring in a lot of students, but that is just not true. Big locations cost big $$$ and require a lot of work. It is a lot easier if you already have a good team of strong supporting students that will help you grow and maintain a big $$$ location. So, start small and grow from there.

[-N-]

Having a school is completely different than teaching someone personally.

Having a successful school is also different than TCMA survival.


You are in the people business when you open a school. I read somewhere that "people don't really care what you know until they know you care."

This is a kind of western culture thing.




I also agree with MightyB that making a living teaching kids suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks! Only adults can understand the amount of effort required in the regular practice of the cma. Therefore, the survival is based on how many adults we can inspirer to commit to the learning and practice.

Making a living doing kiddie daycare sucks. Truly teaching the real thing to kids can be much more rewarding than teaching adults.

The kids I've taught are still better than any of the adults that have ever joined. And some of the adults joined because they wanted to be able to do what they saw the kids doing.

The kids were disciplined, attentive, and did as they were told during 4 hour workouts. This wasn't kung fu daycare, and I didn't make any money from it. But those kids do more for survival of real TCMA than any of the others.

This summer, one of the former kids came back to train during break after graduating from Air Force Academy. The last time he trained with me was about 8 years ago. We did 8+ hours a day of one on one for 3 days before he had to leave again. By the time he left, he was doing better than any of the current adult students who had been training for a few years. All of his muscles were sore though.


So, back to the question, "how does the TCMA survive for future generations to learn?" It MUST BE TAUGHT. Doesn't matter if it is in the park, a basement, a garage, or a location. Of course a location will require the most work.

Yes, taught. But be careful if you find yourself compromising to be a commercial success.

Then it becomes survival of the business more than survival of TCMA.

[Surf-Rider]

Yes, these are some very solid points.

When I talk about kids I am referring to very young kids. I've had very little success teaching 4-7 years until adult hood. Some that make it may start around 8. I find 10 and up to be better and early teens to be the best. I do not look at young teens as kids (I know they are) but as young adults and therefore treat them like that. At least this is from my experience, maybe others are better teaching the very young and keeping them into adult hood. I think that is a skill on it's own.

I will agree, my teens will train circles around my adults and the adults wish they could do half of what the teens do but the problem I see is that the teens need to grow up, graduate, get married and have a life. Ok, maybe one or two might come back but most don't. They go on with their lives and never think of spreading what they learned. How is this going to help the survival of TCMA?

[-N-]

Yes, these are some very solid points.

When I talk about kids I am referring to very young kids. I've had very little success teaching 4-7 years until adult hood. Some that make it may start around 8. I find 10 and up to be better and early teens to be the best. I do not look at young teens as kids (I know they are) but as young adults and therefore treat them like that. At least this is from my experience, maybe others are better teaching the very young and keeping them into adult hood. I think that is a skill on it's own.

I will agree, my teens will train circles around my adults and the adults wish they could do half of what the teens do but the problem I see is that the teens need to grow up, graduate, get married and have a life. Ok, maybe one or two might come back but most don't. They go on with their lives and never think of spreading what they learned. How is this going to help the survival of TCMA?

The ones I'm referring to started at age 4 and continued into their teens.

[Surf-Rider]

That's cool.
I find that to be very rare.
Of all the kids you started at 4 how many made it to keep training pass their teens into their 20's and eventually started teaching and spreading the art?

[Jimbo]

I'm willing to bet that out of any 100 students under any given teacher (who has many students, kids or adults), probably less than 5 or 6 will go on to become lifelong practitioners. And even fewer will teach and pass on their knowledge.

TBH, I used to fret about the need to spread kung fu. Years ago, I settled for the fact that those arts that are meant to survive will do so, with or without my worrying about it. If not here, then somewhere else. Most people take up kung fu as a hobby, cultural interest, or for self-defense, not as a gateway to a second (or third) job. Spreading the art isn't some duty of a practitioner, it's for those who feel a calling to share it with others who might also be passionate about it. And they're very fortunate indeed if they can find good students with whom to share their art. And if any of them become good enough and choose to become teachers, then that is a bonus. But really teaching kung fu is a lot of hard work and a big responsibility, and not a decision to be taken lightly, IMO. Which is why I personally chose to leave the duty of teaching to others.

[-N-]

That's cool.
I find that to be very rare.
Of all the kids you started at 4 how many made it to keep training pass their teens into their 20's and eventually started teaching and spreading the art?


I'm willing to bet that out of any 100 students under any given teacher (who has many students, kids or adults), probably less than 5 or 6 will go on to become lifelong practitioners. And even fewer will teach and pass on their knowledge.

3 of them are in their 20's now, and starting careers and families. If any of them tried to make a profession out of teaching TCMA, I'd have to go beat some sense into them.

When they were with me, they did teach specific skills to adults while under my supervision. I would have no problem with them teaching certain key fundamentals at this point, whereas I can't say the same for any of the other students.

At some point they likely will find time to return to their physical training and even teach a little.

TCMA is wholistic and more than just physical skill. I still interact with them, and I see them applying martial spirit and attitude in everything they do. They teach this either explicitly or by example. I'm happy with this because it all starts and ends with attitude and spirit. None of them will be the weak men of Asia. They know to defeat their opponents physically and to crush them spiritually. And they will be smart enough not to have to do that.

My grand-teacher taught(and yelled at and beat with a stick) 6000 students during his career, and was known as The Mantis King. He authorized something like 23 students to teach. That is less than half of 1% of his students. That was the expectation for the quality level for the system to survive. Even among those authorized, it's clear that there were different levels of understanding.

My teacher authorized a few of us to teach. And even within our group, not all were authorized due to ability and understanding.

One of our ancestors was concerned in his old age about having nobody to carry on the system. He watched the county leitai matches and went up to the champion when it was all over. He told him that he was good, but but not good enough that he should have won. That insult led to a fight where he defeated the champion, who then asked to be his student.

Over the years, we have had at least six instructors come to learn with us. I would not consider any of them at a level to propagate the quality we expect.

It's not about how many students, whether 6000 or just 1. It's about the quality to keep real TCMA alive.

[Surf-Rider]

I'm willing to bet that out of any 100 students under any given teacher (who has many students, kids or adults), probably less than 5 or 6 will go on to become lifelong practitioners. And even fewer will teach and pass on their knowledge.

This reminds me of my first teacher that said "if you get 1 student out of 100 to make this a lifelong pursuit to one day sharing the art, then you did a great job."
I guess I always held on to this and figured if I wanted 10 good students to carry on then I need to teach 1000 to find the 10. Unfortunately, that is exhausting!


But really teaching kung fu is a lot of hard work and a big responsibility, and not a decision to be taken lightly

I totally agree 100%
I always looked at becoming a teacher like getting married and having children. Your commitment is to the art as you would to your wife and you need to put the best interest of the students first as you would your children, for they are the future. It seems these days that most students don't appreciate the amount of time and effort it takes and the few that do, well life always seems to get in the way to end their practice. I understand why many have chose to stop teaching, but I can't help but wonder if there is a better way.

[SevenStar]

Only adults can understand the amount of effort required in the regular practice of the cma. Therefore, the survival is based on how many adults we can inspirer to commit to the learning and practice.

That's not true. All kids are sponges. they understand what they see and are taught. You teach them to train regularly, you teach them that they are to train hard, they understand. What adults don't understand, is how a kid works. young kids have a short attention span. a kid is not going to focus for an entire 2 hour class. He will focus for a good thirty minutes.


I think that many people try MMA or BJJ because they think it is something they can learn and use immediately, unlike the traditional arts that take a long time. I believe that MMA and BJJ is starting to slowly lose it's momentum. People are starting to realize that to gain any real skills requires hard work, time and effort, regardless of style.

living in an MMA city, I don't see any decrease in momentum. I still see a bjj class with 30 plus people per session. I see thai boxing classes with 15 - 20 people per session. I see people on their own on the bags and also see full judo classes. Why? Because people enjoy it. Most people don't start and continue with martial arts because they want to learn how to defend themselves. Not in 2016. they either want to compete, they want an alternative method of staying in shape or just something different and fun to do. with both of those categories, they know the results don't come quickly, however, they come faster than they would with TMA, the way it is typically taught. Don't get me wrong, some people are still interested in self defense, but I can tell you that's not the reason 85 - 90% of prospects walk into an mma gym.

[Jimbo]

I also live in an MMA/BJJ mecca, and I do not notice any signs of it slowing down. If anything, it's become part of the mainstream. In my district of the city alone, there's maybe a half-dozen MMA gyms, at least two of which name UFC/MMA fighters train at. In the past, up until the early 2Ks, in terms of MA this was mostly a Kenpo town, with a good smattering of TKD/TSD. Those were the dominant MAs. Now you barely hear a peep out of them. The entire MA landscape has changed, and I don't see things going back to the way it was.

That said, I will say that, IME and observation, for a kid to be a sponge for MA, he/she must be interested. As a teacher, you can only encourage and nurture that interest. If the kid is there because mom or dad put them there, and they hate it or aren't interested or motivated, they will not/cannot absorb much of anything. Also, just like adults, kids are individuals. They aren't superhuman. Like any adult, a kid must have some degree of natural inclination for the art they are practicing. There must be some physical/mental compatibility or it won't happen.

Even though I only taught adults in my own classes, earlier in life I assistant instructed for several years for two different teachers, and had experience teaching kids, both small and in their teens. Most were very enthusiastic; you must keep things fast-paced, especially for the younger ones. I handled it well enough, but I never really enjoyed teaching the little kids. I guess I'm not a "kid" person, which is OK because we're all different.

As for adults being outdone by the kids, that all depends. I've taught adults who either came with considerable previous MA experience, or who were 'naturals' who also trained very seriously, progressed rapidly, and could have probably ran circles around a lot of the kids I'd previously taught. They were self-motivated to be there, and were already into their careers. Admittedly, most of these were in their mid-late 20s. Of course, occasionally you'd also get the 'know-it-alls' who won't follow instructions because it's not the way they were used to doing things in their other art, and these types always made excuses. Those types were dismissed before too long.

[MightyB]

I think one of the issues we as a community have to address is how we demonstrate TCMA. The majority of TCMA, if you search on youtube, is forms. That's just not going to cut it anymore. It doesn't excite people, and we're asking too much of the audience in their ability to decipher what they're seeing.

Now look at this video for a traditional Filipino martial art https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzBbZSSKSMk&list=TLGGHKMurC5ozZkwNTEyMjAxNg
The casual observer understands immediately.

Someone IMO who's been doing a great job portraying TCMA in the media is the UK's Master Wong.
Here's a new video he just put out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uwmcVBsR_o
Again
the casual observer understands this video immediately.

Contrasts those videos to any of the numerous TCMA forms videos that are online. Or think about the demonstrations we put on at events. Person after person doing solo forms that to a casual observer look a little whacky.

[Jimbo]

I agree 100%, MightyB.

It's the way the arts are presented. I do agree there is way too much over-emphasis on the forms aspect in TCMA, especially in demos. I've been guilty of it in the past before, because that's the way public demos were usually done.

A big pet peeve of mine is MA applications videos (whether TCMA or others) in which the instructor drones on and on and on and on about every tiny detail while his 'dummy'/partner moves in slow motion then stands mostly stationery. Sometimes going on for 20 minutes or more before actually showing anything. As opposed to just showing it in action and keeping the pace up, and then explaining some details, like in that excellent Master Wong vid. Because in actual usage, those teeny, tiny little details shown with a stationery man will make no appreciable difference. They only make a difference in detail-driven demonstrations to make the demonstrator appear like more of an expert.

[MightyB]

that's the way public demos were usually done.


Now I'm not saying that instructors give up on doing public forms, but they should think about the audience. If it's an educated (in MA) audience, then forms are fine because they'll understand. But, if it's a general audience, then think about wowing them. "Wowing" can be forms - but choose flashier forms and forms with cool weapons. Also - remember a little goes a long way, so focus on quality, not quantity. Lion dances are sweet, and loud which generates excitement. Always make sure there's a segment with techniques in action - and not noticeably too cooperative between the attacker and the defender. The idea should be to create excitement.

[MightyB]

A big pet peeve of mine is MA applications videos (whether TCMA or others) in which the instructor drones on and on and on and on about every tiny detail while his 'dummy'/partner moves in slow motion then stands mostly stationery. Sometimes going on for 20 minutes or more before actually showing anything.

Agreed - I hate that. It's like, just shut up and do it already.
Word to everyone making vids - Show with action and keep the vids short.

[Jimbo]

Now I'm not saying that instructors give up on doing public forms, but they should think about the audience. If it's an educated (in MA) audience, then forms are fine because they'll understand. But, if it's a general audience, then think about wowing them. "Wowing" can be forms - but choose flashier forms and forms with cool weapons. Also - remember a little goes a long way, so focus on quality, not quantity. Lion dances are sweet, and loud which generates excitement. Always make sure there's a segment with techniques in action - and not noticeably too cooperative between the attacker and the defender. The idea should be to create excitement.

One thing my CLF sifu incorporated into demos was 2-man fighting applications, first done at full-bore, then once again at half-speed, to show what we were actually doing. But not lingering on any one thing. These were done rapid-fire, with multiple pairs on stage, going from one pair to the next. IMO, this probably did a lot more to interest people in general than the forms. Other traditional kung fu people might be able to appreciate a well-done form, but to most it just looks like punching/kicking and swishing weapons into the air.

[bawang]

trying to revive American kung fu is like trying to revive any other obscure old fad hobby. just imagine trying to revive hippy culture or nerd tabletop dice game.

[David Jamieson]

trying to revive American kung fu is like trying to revive any other obscure old fad hobby. just imagine trying to revive hippy culture or nerd tabletop dice game.

Ok, first of all, Cannabis is getting legalized everywhere and a lot of people are still not into the establishment, so that hippy thing is doing alright.
D&D is in it's 4th edition or so and there are entire cafes and bars dedicated to table top gaming.

In summary, you need to get out more bud. Stuff's going on! :D

Kung Fu will be fine as long as there is even one honest practitioner out there. It's a concept anyway, some people get it, in fact, lots of people get it. It's not like everyone should be doing it or know it anyway. It's special.

If you want to know if your kung fu is any good, then find a way to use it and test your mettle. If you stay in a bubble or echo chamber,, your screwed, Truly..

[Jimbo]

Ok, first of all, Cannabis is getting legalized everywhere and a lot of people are still not into the establishment, so that hippy thing is doing alright.

True. There are actually LOTS of young hippie types out there nowadays. I know some. They don't call themselves hippies but that's what they are. If anything, it seems to be growing. Hippie culture seemed to start coming back sometime in the '90s (after almost everyone seemed to go corporate in the '80s). Not saying it's good or bad, it just is what it is.

[Surf-Rider]

True. There are actually LOTS of young hippie types out there nowadays. I know some. They don't call themselves hippies but that's what they are. If anything, it seems to be growing. Hippie culture seemed to start coming back sometime in the '90s (after almost everyone seemed to go corporate in the '80s). Not saying it's good or bad, it just is what it is.

True, I notice that too. The hippie culture does seem to be growing. I think some people like to refer to them as tree huggers or naturalist, but we live in a culture now that is free from labels so I don't think they call themselves anything.

But doesn't everything that is old make it's way back? Old style clothing is now vintage ware, new cars looking like old models like the Thunderbird. I remember Yoga disappearing during the 70's and 80's and making a strong come back in the late 90's.

As a culture we are getting more open and receptive to old ideas. It was just a short time ago that chiropractors were not considered doctors by the medical industry and now every insurance covers them and they are everywhere. Taiji started making it's come back just a few years ago and I think it will continue to slowly grow as more and more medical practices are referring people to search out yoga and taiji. Some work insurances are even classifying taiji as a health alternative and compensating their employees for participating in it. Unfortunately, most taiji taught is for health and not as a TCMA. But maybe this will open the doors for more qualified teachers.

[Jimbo]

As a culture we are getting more open and receptive to old ideas. It was just a short time ago that chiropractors were not considered doctors by the medical industry and now every insurance covers them and they are everywhere. Taiji started making it's come back just a few years ago and I think it will continue to slowly grow as more and more medical practices are referring people to search out yoga and taiji. Some work insurances are even classifying taiji as a health alternative and compensating their employees for participating in it. Unfortunately, most taiji taught is for health and not as a TCMA. But maybe this will open the doors for more qualified teachers.

Good points, Surf-Rider.

I'll admit that when I went through massage therapy school, one of the lesser requirements was to learn some Yang Taiji, but only one simplified form, and mostly for body mechanics. Because we were always taught to keep our feet under us and to move the entire body as a unit, from the legs, as opposed to using only the hands and arms when massaging. It was easy for me and I didn't really need the Taiji, because due to my CMA training I could already do all that. However, the idea of whole-body mechanics in massage is a sound one that works very well at being more effective at your work while preserving your own body from undue strain. But after graduating and passing the national certification exam, I stopped doing the Taiji form (I barely needed to practice it anyway).

IMO, Taiji is inextricably linked with purely health practices in the Western mind. With few exceptions, people will not seek out Taiji for its combative aspects. It's probably the most-practiced CMA in the world; either it or Wing Chun. In the West and probably most places, Taiji is put into the same category as yoga and other 'alternative' health practices, and mostly for older people. Even though the original Taiji was/is very combative.

I think it's fine if CMA remains a small part of the MA world in the West. It was that way before the 'fad' of the early '70s and didn't die out then or after. In fact, the so-called 'kung fu fad' probably resulted in more business for karate schools than genuine CMA schools, which were fewer and harder to find anyway. The 'boom' immediately following Bruce Lee's death was called kung fu, but TBH most didn't know the difference at the time. But the 'kung fu fad' was not a big cultural phenomenon in the overall mainstream culture; not even close to, say, the 'British Invasion' in pop music of the early/mid-'60s, or even the aforementioned hippie counterculture.

[bawang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gdnIP6dakA

critical speech regarding kung fu survival

[Jimbo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gdnIP6dakA

critical speech regarding kung fu survival

Great insight in that video. Thanks for posting that, bawang.

[bawang]

Great insight in that video. Thanks for posting that, bawang.
np bro
r u near san jose bro

[Jimbo]

No, man, I live in SoCal.