Kung Fu Quest

[SevenStar]

Those of you who know me know that I have trained traditional styles before but have a preference for the methods of muay thai and judo. I posted several months ago that I returned to the traditional arts (No particular reason, I still go to the boxing gym as well) - so I'm posting what my past several months has been thus far.

I found an instructor of Ngo Cho. He is from a legit lineage and has a handful of students. there is one other guy who trains with me. He is newer, so we are slow on things like sparring, which is fine with me because in addition to giving him that chance to learn and get comfortable with sparring, it gives me the time to try and apply what I am learning to sparring.

Weapons: I have learned three weapon forms and am learning a two man set for a fourth weapon
broadsword
horse cutter
kwan dao
two man staff set

empty hand forms I have learned so far are not Ngo Cho forms, I think, but more so forms that chee kim thong passed on to his students for preservation purposes.
ckt opening (from what I've seen, the different styles around Quanzhou seem to have differing yet similar openings)
liuhebafa - looks like none I have ever seen before, but I see crane and ngo cho concepts in it, so it's definitely different
luohan - my love of judo had been great with this one, as the form has several throws that I was able to pinpoint from my judo experience
tai chor samhien - this one actually is a Ngo Cho form, and as the name implies, is a san chin form. these forms appear to be the origin of the san chin forms in goju, shorin, uechi, etc.

concepts I am learning thus far:
floating
sinking
swallowing (absorbing)
spitting (rejecting)
spiraling
shaking

due to judo, I think I a decent grasp of float, absorb and reject. karate and thai boxing have spiraling, but sinking and shaking are what I'm trying to get a better understanding of using and applying.

[-N-]

Cool.

Not Ngo Cho here, but we compare sinking to Dempsey's drop step. And use with both offense and defense.

[SevenStar]

okay - that would explain some of the stomping. instead of a simple stomp, dropping the weight as with the drop step jab.

[-N-]

Yes. we drop our weight with our punches and also our kicks.

If we are neutralizing an attack, we contact and sink instead of just using isolated arm movement.

We always have to tell our students, "more body, less arm". Also have to remind them to rebound/float from the sink.

Sinking is used with weapons too. If someone thrusts with a spear or staff, you can use your spear or staff to intercept, coil, and bind, and use sinking to generate force to disperse the attack or disarm. Coiling uses dan tian spiraling to maneuver your weapon to capture his.

One type of shaking can be when you spiral, sink, and extend with relaxed explosive movement. Don't know if that is same as in Ngo Cho.

[SevenStar]

what exercises do you guys use to develop these? your description of the shaking sounds similar to what is seen in forms - the rotation and sinking as a strike is performed. not as much upper torso rotation as with boxing, though - the upper torso stays more square.

[-N-]

For us, we do the torso rotation too. Though if we make contact sooner than later, the torso may be more square.

We just train the body mechanics whether doing forms, drills, hitting the heavy bag, or sparring.

Sometimes a student needs some help to recognize the body feel of the power generation, so we'll coach and adjust according to what seems to be the problem.

Lately I've been doing isolated fundamentals with 2 handed Dai Do and with spear to clean up my sinking, spiraling, and shaking. Mainly because we are teaching 2 handed sword right now.

Dai Do is heavy, so can't be used effectively with just brute force. You need all of those coordinated powers so that you're not fighting your own weapon.

[bawang]

do whatever makes you happy and feel fun. life is too short

[SevenStar]

Dai Do is heavy, so can't be used effectively with just brute force. You need all of those coordinated powers so that you're not fighting your own weapon.


definitely. I train with a 25 lb kwan dao. using only your arms to do a form with that is grueling. you have to use your body. Also, I saw a vid of a crane practitioner shaking a staff to train shaking power. I am guessing the principle is similar.

[bawang]

da dao is only use with brute force. one hit kills. if you miss draw sidearm

only real on foot da dao techniques are mountain crush egg and iron broom. everything else flower

[-N-]

Cut straight down to head. Angle cut to neck. Angle cut to body. Angle cut to leg. Reverse cut under the hands or crotch.

[SevenStar]

da dao is only use with brute force. one hit kills. if you miss draw sidearm

only real on foot da dao techniques are mountain crush egg and iron broom. everything else flower

I think he's saying that you can't effectively wield it without using the whole body acting in unison - coordination, rotation, etc. similar to the 25lb kwan dao I am using - you need to use the whole body to effectively use it.

[bawang]

I think he's saying that you can't effectively wield it without using the whole body acting in unison - coordination, rotation, etc. similar to the 25lb kwan dao I am using - you need to use the whole body to effectively use it.
25 lb da dao is not training weight it is combat weight. you use momentum of horse to mow down enemies. its couched like a lance there is no coordination rotation. dismounted you only have one strike then you drop it pull sidearm.

spinning around, twirling it around, parrying blocking, footwork, is all flower. raise it to the sky, chop straight down into the ground, pull sidearm. this is called mountain crush egg.

[Cataphract]

25lb is twice the weight of the heaviest zweihänder. From horse back even a normal 5lb sword gets devastating power because the horse's momentum is behind it.

[-N-]

This one. 3.5 pounds.

10019

Use more body weight instead of arm power to cut. Or else it will be too slow, sword will pull you off balance, and you get stabbed by 4 guys when you try to recover.

[SevenStar]

Yes, it's a combat weight weapon, it's not wushu steel. I won't be using it from horseback, but if I can use it with ease as I would wushu steel, my back, triceps, core, legs and shoulders should benefit

[-N-]

what exercises do you guys use to develop these?


We just train the body mechanics whether doing forms, drills, hitting the heavy bag, or sparring.

One that I like on the heavy bag is to do short range body strike. Drop-step sink, spiral, and shake to shock the bag. Make it fly 6 feet and keep bouncing it away when it comes back to hit you. This is good with the cheap 80lb Everlast bags - the ones that people don't like because the sand settles to the outside bottom and makes them too hard.

Adjust the bag to do hip strikes, torso strikes, pectoral strikes, and back strikes.

Kind of like the guy with the tree in this video. But with out the running step. And more sink and spiral.


These vids have been posted around here before, but since this is a Baji thread, I feel they must be included here...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47dn0P31BBw&sns=em

Continued next post...

It's more about the sudden transition from full relaxed to tight and relaxed again than it is about just strength.

I do this on a steel lamp post. If you relax and hit right, the post will ring. I do that with palm strikes too. Relax and almost no arm movement, but sharp sink and spiral. More relaxed makes the hits harder and the post rings louder.

[-N-]

My Sihing and I are the only ones from our teacher to train the short range body striking.

He got sent to become a student of Jiang Hao Quan. A classmate there tried to clinch and throw him. My Sihing used short range body strike to knock the other guy on his ass even though he was outweighed 60lbs.

JHQ looked at my Sihing and quietly shook his head to tell him not to use that skill on his classmate.

[SevenStar]

One that I like on the heavy bag is to do short range body strike. Drop-step sink, spiral, and shake to shock the bag. Make it fly 6 feet and keep bouncing it away when it comes back to hit you. This is good with the cheap 80lb Everlast bags - the ones that people don't like because the sand settles to the outside bottom and makes them too hard.

Adjust the bag to do hip strikes, torso strikes, pectoral strikes, and back strikes.

Kind of like the guy with the tree in this video. But with out the running step. And more sink and spiral.



It's more about the sudden transition from full relaxed to tight and relaxed again than it is about just strength.

I do this on a steel lamp post. If you relax and hit right, the post will ring. I do that with palm strikes too. Relax and almost no arm movement, but sharp sink and spiral. More relaxed makes the hits harder and the post rings louder.


I like those! I've seen that guy before - he's a fighter. was he on the baji episode of kung fu quest? I know I've seen him before somewhere. coincidentally, right before I read this, I watched a bagua guy doing it:


https://youtu.be/naRzUXH0j_I?list=PLFCSTl8dPkGIzsVvItypGrlMxlDHzArO u

[-N-]

I like those! I've seen that guy before - he's a fighter. was he on the baji episode of kung fu quest? I know I've seen him before somewhere. coincidentally, right before I read this, I watched a bagua guy doing it:


https://youtu.be/naRzUXH0j_I?list=PLFCSTl8dPkGIzsVvItypGrlMxlDHzArO u

That's good to do with a partner too.

Sink, rotate, and make explosive impact. Be aware to not just crash straight in or lean off balance.

I've always appreciated Miyamoto Musashi's advice:

"The Body Strike means to approach the enemy through a gap in his guard. The spirit is to strike him with your body. Turn your face a little aside and strike the enemy's breast with your left shoulder thrust out. Approach with the spirit of bouncing the enemy away, striking as strongly as possible in time with your breathing. If you achieve this method of closing with the enemy, you will be able to knock him ten or twenty feet away. It is possible to strike the enemy until he is dead. Train well."

[SevenStar]

yeah, that book is a great read.

[SevenStar]

Lately I've been doing isolated fundamentals with 2 handed Dai Do and with spear to clean up my sinking, spiraling, and shaking.


what are the exercises?

[-N-]

For sword, just the basic cuts and parries.

The context is on the battlefield with multiple enemies trying to stab and cut you with bayonets(or spears). You have a high chance of dieing, so you're just going to take as many with you as you can.

Full body weight cuts. Straight down to the head. Angle down to the neck. Angle down to the body. Angle down to the leg. Any incoming attacks you deflect to the outside, get in, and full body sink and cut down. You have to be able to recover fast whether you connect or miss so you can turn to face any other enemy and cut him down.

The practice is in being aware of the body mechanics details. Sword can deflect on the raise, then cuts down. Arms have to be relaxed when raising and cutting or else you will be too slow. Because you are relaxed you can, and you have to, use waist spiral to generate power to focus into the deflections.

The hands have a 1-2 timing. Main force is the left hand. Right hand catches and controls. Extend the arms. Have a slight draw on the cut instead of just a blunt chop. Sink the body with the cuts. Whatever footwork you use, do it with that sharp drop step feel. If you use the relaxed shaking power, you can feel even the combat weight sword vibrate in your hands.

Don't over muscle the moves and go wide. Bayonet and spear is fast, and you will just cut stabbed while trying to recover.

---

For spear, do clockwise circles, counterclockwise circles, and thrusts.

But same for spear, the circles are generated with relaxed body spirals, and not isolated to the arms. Arms have an alternating 1-2 up down timing. Coordinated with waist turning, and thrust, the spear point moves in a spiral.

Small spirals to intercept any attack/riposte. Because you are relaxed, you can feel your opponent's force through your spear when you connect and can press in with a small motion to deflect or disarm his weapon. Sink, spiral, and step in when you press. Small spiral lets your point stay on target while you send his weapon wide and off the line, so you just continue in to cut his hands and stab him.

Bigger spirals can intercept for longer weapons or sweep out the legs. Same basic mechanics with step, sink, and turn to generate power. Practice while walking so you can generate power with footwork stepping in any direction.