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JNA
11-28-2001, 05:00 AM
In your opinion what is the best style of Karate? NO cop-out answers like all of them are good, it just depends on the practitioner. WE SHOULD all admit that somes style give you an advantage over others. If i had to chose only one it would be Goju Ryu. It's strong and efficient with a good blend of hard and soft techniques. I was gonna choose Shorin but i like this bettter.

"The Self Defense mentality" is one of escaping from a violent encounter unharmed. "The Warriors mentality" is one of taking out the enemy as quickly and efficient as possible- Ji Ji Ke (Ji Long feng). Which one do you have?

Dark Knight
11-28-2001, 08:32 PM
I know you dont want to hear it, but it depends on the person. I hold rank in Goju, along with others, and have many years in Goju. Check out Dillmans approach, I like his theorys on forms. (The theorys apply to most Karate styles.)

shaolinboxer
11-28-2001, 09:29 PM
"somes style give you an advantage over others"

What kind of advantage are you talking about?

JNA
11-29-2001, 02:39 AM
For example if you had Shotakan versus Tai Chi who would you place your money on. Skip all the other stuff and say they both "mastered" their styles, and that they were identical twins, best shape they could possibly be in, same genetic limitations, both had best teachers of their respective styles, Both about 40. Choose :D

rogue
11-29-2001, 06:03 AM
There isn't an answer. Which style of Tai Chi? Which ryu of Shotokan? You pick what works for you and go with it.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

jungle-mania
11-29-2001, 02:52 PM
My preference in terms of karate would go to kyukushinkai, I have sparred with many karatekas and those from kyukushin and similar variants give me a hard time. This is not to say traditional karate styles is not effective, a ****o ryu guy gives me a hard time with his reverse punches (something most traditional karatekas are good in). But on an overall view for a hardass fighting style, kyukushin tops them all. I have yet to hear of any traditional stylists been able to stop a kyukushin fighter of the same rank. However, it was rumoured that Mas Oyama the founder was defeated by a tai chi master in Hong Kong when he was promoting his brand of karate. Coincidentally, many aspects of kyukushin come from goju-ryu and shotokan.

Dark Knight
11-29-2001, 10:15 PM
"For example if you had Shotakan versus Tai Chi who would you place your money on. Skip all the other stuff and say they both "mastered" their styles, "

I have met a couple Tai Chi instructors who teach the art and not just a small portion (Forms in the park kind of training) They actually have excellent drills in Tai Chi, they use pushing hands and other drills.

Its like any style, you can practice in the air or against another warm body and learn how to make it work.

Before you generalize how a style is make sure you run across people who know it, you might be supprised at what it has to offer.

DragonzRage
12-04-2001, 04:54 PM
KYOKUSHINKAI and its similar offshoots such as Seidokaikan, hands down, no questions asked! They are the only branch of karate that by and large has the ballz out full contact fighting mentality and tough conditioning/training for real fighting. They fight hard regularly and have successful competitors in many venues. They produce fighters like Filho, Feitosa, and to a lesser extent Satake. All the other more softcore karate branches have for the most part fallen into the limbo that many other traditional arts have. They train the Fred Ettishes and Minoki Ichiharas of the world. Unless you want to be a point fighter, or the guy who jumps around stage like a buffoon yelling "kiai", Kyokushinkai is easily the best. No one else in the karate world has the fierce edge that those guys have.

Dark Knight
12-05-2001, 09:45 AM
Enshin Karate. Full contact no gloves

Check out the Sabaki Challenge
http://www.enshin.com/sabaki.html

Video clips are there

CerberusXXL
12-05-2001, 10:27 AM
I have practiced three styles of karate, Goju ryu, shotokan, and Kyokushin.

I would have to say that Kyokushin is definitely the would pick. I don't know if it's the mentality, the training, the conditioning but I felt best with this style.
The next style I would pick would be goju ryu because it's a solid style with many useful technique.
As far as shotokan I would say it is decent and great for people interesting in sport karate.

Just my $.03

Budokan
12-06-2001, 08:54 AM
Heavens, how often do we have to answer this question?

rogue
12-06-2001, 07:29 PM
I guess until we get it right Bu. :rolleyes:

Leonidas
12-06-2001, 09:05 PM
D*MN RIGHT:D. But it's my fault, I guess i shoulda said what style do you like practicing(favorite) the most. Other people seem to understand.:p ;)

rogue
12-07-2001, 10:16 PM
In that case, currently it's Odo Kwan.

phantom
12-10-2001, 05:28 PM
I agree that kyokushin and its offshoots are the most effective styles of karate. However, all styles have produced tough fighters. Bill Wallace, one of the best kickboxers of all time and often referred to as "the world's greatest kicker" started off studying shorin-ryu first. Benny Uriquez, arguably the greatest kickboxer of all time, started off studying shotokan and american kenpo first, and has also studied tae kwon do. I remember once reading about a cop who was a shotokan black belt, and he had successfully defended himself in street fights with his shotokan. Peace.:D

omegapoint
12-10-2001, 09:56 PM
Let's do this from worst to first:

8) The Korean "Karates"- TKD, Hapkido, TSD: So diluted you might get waterlogged. Very good flexibility training. Usually the subtleties of "Ti" are missing. Bad hand techs.

7) Kyokushin= An Amalgam of Shorin, Goju and Chinese Kempo techs. Strong, linear karate but bad for the body (no qigong). Not for the old, weak or unathletic (about 80 % of the populace).

6) Japanese Goju= Very hard and bad for the body, but not as harmful as Kyokushin. Will give you power and a stroke.

5)A tie. Shotokan/****o Ryu= Japanese sport Shorin Ryu and Goju Ryu. Good basic linear karate techs., but still not enough "soyora" or softness to go with the "ijiki" (power). Many effective grappling techs never included or deleted with time to make it "school boy" friendly. Often no weapons are taught. Major drawback...

4) Isshin Ryu: Similar to Shotokan, but closer to true martial effectiveness. Also, like Shotokan and Kyokushin, an amalgamation of Shorin Ryu and Okinawan Goju Ryu principles.

3)A tie between Okinawan Kenpo and Goju Ryu (especially Higaonna's system): Very good ideas about fighting, but the stances can be deep and sometimes there is too much emphasis on sparring and tournaments.

2)Another tie- Uechi Ryu and Matsubayashi Ryu (A Shorin Ryuha or subsystem): Both look really Southern Chinese. Fast, snappy movements with high chambering in Matsubayashi. Good open hand techs and koteate (body hardening) for Uechi. Some principles of "ti" are missing. All-in-all both good styles, though.

1) Shorin Ryu (Matsumura Seito, Kobayashi, Shobayashi Ryuhas): Closest to the original combatives taught by Sokon Matsumura after studying Jigen Ryu (Kenjutsu), Shaolin in Fuszhou, and Okinawan Ti. Change-body and tuite (Okinawan Jujitsu) are some of the specifics not learned in 98 % of other Karate styles. Weapons are second to none, and reality fighting effectiveness and tourney sparring are both awesome. Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace effectively dominated the pro circuit with only 1 year of training in their respective ryuha.

I guess you guys know what I train in and which styles I like. These are personal opinions, but they are also based on 20+ years of training in various arts here and in Asia. I have sparred them all and next to Shorin the best sparrers have been Kyokushin guys, but not much more than the Shotokan dudes (watch out for that reverse punch!). Not all karate is equal, contrary to popular belief. Only higher level practitioners know or will say this. Sorry, everything is cool, but it's impossible for pure sport or Japanized styles to offer true intention (umuiri), when pieces of their puzzle are missing. Happy Holy-days!!!

omegapoint
12-10-2001, 10:00 PM
I'm glad this isn't a karate forum! The S H I T O Ryu practitioners would be assss-out. Weird and later!

rogue
12-11-2001, 02:05 PM
While you bring up some good points, I think attributting the success of Wallace and Lewis in the ring to one year of Shorin-ryu is a stretch. Their success has more to do with their drive than with any single art. Though starting with a good base like Shorin sure didn't hurt.

Dark Knight
12-11-2001, 02:52 PM
"Change-body and tuite (Okinawan Jujitsu) are some of the specifics not learned in 98 % of other Karate styles. Weapons are second to none,"

Ive seen the Jujitsu in the forms taught in many styles of Karate. It is prob less today as everyone self promotes to 10th degree before they learn it, but i have met legitimate high ranking people who teach it in different styles.

As far as weapons, Im not sure why you feel that way, could you expand. I know a couple of people who do strickly Okinawan weapons. its an art on its own. (Everything from Bo to Oar to turtle shells)

And as stated, kickboxers can come from anywhere, where did benny the Jet come from? He retired undefeated.

omegapoint
12-12-2001, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by Dark Knight
"Change-body and tuite (Okinawan Jujitsu) are some of the specifics not learned in 98 % of other Karate styles. Weapons are second to none,"

Ive seen the Jujitsu in the forms taught in many styles of Karate. It is prob less today as everyone self promotes to 10th degree before they learn it, but i have met legitimate high ranking people who teach it in different styles.

As far as weapons, Im not sure why you feel that way, could you expand. I know a couple of people who do strickly Okinawan weapons. its an art on its own. (Everything from Bo to Oar to turtle shells)

And as stated, kickboxers can come from anywhere, where did benny the Jet come from? He retired undefeated.


I'd be glad to expound on some of my points...

1) I, too, have seen what people classify as Japanese JJ in their karate curriculums, but that has nothing to do with knowing tuite, gyakute, tegumi or any countless other Okinawan fighting styles (striking and grappling). Many Japanese JJ and Judo methods require a different level of strength and athletic ability when compared to the simplicity, and effectiveness of Ti. I don't have the time or space to detail "Ti" here, but suffice it to say that it is not Japanese Jujitsu.

2) Most real Okinawan dojos and ryu teach some form of Kobudo or Kobujutsu. There is rarely any mention of this in the schools official name, but the majority of the Shorin, Goju, Kenpo, Isshin and S h i t o Ryuha teach weapons of some sort. You don't really have to explain to me what Kobudo is and the fact that it is also taught as a separate art, but most styles on Okinawa include it in their advanced (Brown Belt and above) curriculum. In fact my style's name is Kokusai ShuriTe Karate/KOBUJUTSU Rengo Kai. Our kobujutsu reflects the intent of our founder Sokon Matsumura. You do receive separate rankings in Karate and Kobujutsu at my school, but weapons training is not a separate part of the teaching methodology. The same is true for most Ryukyuan arts. As for the benefits associated with weapons training; Weapons training not only teaches you how to use an implement to protect yourself, but it also adds a completely different dynamic to your empty hand strikes and proprioception. It just gives you more tools to work with, and more options are at your disposal.

3) Point fighting is a joke, as is most tournament oriented "fighting" (I use this term loosely). Some styles are good for self preservation, and others provide you with false pride and confidence. I'm sure Benny can take care of himself, but how much better would he be if he trained in a real fighting style? His athleticism plus even better and more scientifically sound combat techniques.... DizAMN! Benny was a great sport fighter, but I think he "ducked" Royce Gracie on several occasions and refused to fight him in a challenge match. Those matches can be brutal, but they are still sport. He was an undefeated sport stylist. Why didn't he participate in this sport challenge? I think Royce offered to put up $100,000 dollars. That's the best purse a nonactive tourney guy would see. What did he have to lose? His decision showed, either, incredible courage or a breach in his confidence. Think of my argument like this. Sport is the beach and fighting is the water. It's close to the ocean but the ocean is much more vast, powerful and intricate. No matter how close the proximity, one (the sand) is ground stone and the other (water) grinds it down. Plus, if you never get your feet wet how will you learn to swim? You can't practice how to swim (realistically) on the beach. Well then again looking at the state of assumption and "cluelessness" rampant in this world, maybe some people do...

I stand by my original explanations as to what I think good Karate is and what is the antithesis of the original spirit or intent of the Okinawan masters. Things may have to adapt to the changing environment and times, but when the evolution involves metamorphosis into a different species altogether, then we're talking about 2 separate animals. Do you understand what I'm trying to relay? Have a great week all and train smart...

Dark Knight
12-12-2001, 11:45 AM
"Point fighting is a joke, as is most tournament oriented "fighting" (I use this term loosely). Some styles are good for self preservation, and others provide you with false pride and confidence. I'm sure Benny can take care of himself, but how much better would he be if he trained in a real fighting style?"

He wasnt a point fighter.

"He was an undefeated sport stylist. Why didn't he participate in this sport challenge? I think Royce offered to put up $100,000 dollars."

Another sport. How well would Royce do in Bennys sport? Lets throw the gloves on him and see how well he does as a kickboxer. But we can say the same for Benney, let him fight top boxers by boxing rules.

the gracies are not undefeated, they have been beaten before UFC and since, in other competitions with other rules.

Even though these arts are sports, they are still viable for the street, prob more so than the majority of styles taught because they actually use contact in a fighting situation. When i was a kid in the 70's before MA really exploded everyone said if you want to learn self defense learn boxing. Its a sport but its training will prepare you for a real encounter.

"Some styles are good for self preservation, and others provide you with false pride and confidence."

this is very true, practicing with willing partners and never fighting with a resisting fighter will not prepare you enough for an encounter. You cannot pratice everytime with full power strikes (Run out of training partners) but you must know what its like to get hit and thrown and hit or throw someone resisting you.

DragonzRage
12-12-2001, 03:16 PM
"1) Shorin Ryu (Matsumura Seito, Kobayashi, Shobayashi Ryuhas): Closest to the original combatives taught by Sokon Matsumura"

So Fred Ettish's art is the best style of karate??
Sorry I couldn't resist :D

omegapoint
12-12-2001, 04:50 PM
What the f u c k is a Fred Ettish? Sounds like a form of neurosis! Sparring and sport are a necessary evil, but they have no real bearing on how you'll perform on the street, PERIOD

omegapoint
12-12-2001, 04:51 PM
What the f u c k is a Fred Ettish? Sounds like a form of neurosis! Sparring and sport are necessary evils, but they have no real bearing on how you'll perform on the street, PERIOD

rogue
12-12-2001, 08:06 PM
I forgot about Fred. Score a big one for the Shorinryu guys. :p

http://ettishfetalfighting.8m.com

omegapoint
12-13-2001, 08:03 PM
Sorry but I can't take your pokes at Shorin lightly. What school of Shorin did this Ettish b i t c h train in? NHB is a friggin' joke like the majority of you suckers on here. America is always deluding itself with these claims of superiority in anything it tries to do. Here's an example: if Judo and other sport cats are so fukkkkin' hot then why is it that Judo boy on the 3rd plane couldn't handle some pipsqueak part time tuff guys and then put the plane on autopilot? OT: Why are no talent suckers like Marilyn Manson and the New Kids on the Back Street Sync hyped up here and sell records. What the fukkk are people looking at and perceiving?

If it ain't been programmed you can't understand it. Sheep and never the Shepherd.. How did some real mofos hijack the d a m n planes anyway? Did they shoot-in and take the crew down with wrestling throws? There was a max of 5 fools on each flight. After the 1st flight why didn't the ever perceptive now deceased receive any info as to what was going on. They were talking to peeps on they cellys and s h i t. There were at least 150 people on all those flights and they let these malnourished poo-butts do what they did? Does the world know what being proactive means?

All the jumpimg around in your speedos can't and won't train you for a situation like that. You know, real life. Not drama and WWF. No rules at all, hit in the back of the head with the corner of an ashtray while you got your back to the ruffians assaulting you. That's what I've trained for my whole life and there has been numerous occasions when I got a chance to test it. Here I am still alive after being a Pararescuemen in Desert Storm, growing up the hard way in the Philippines, and kicking 5 racist s h i t talkers' asses at a Superbowl party and enjoying the memory of it (all were boxers/wrestlers).

Fukkkk you assssholes and your idol Fred Ettish. He is not nor ever will be a true Shorin yudansha. If I find him I'll automatically demote him to a yellow belt my-d a m n-self! Most of the people who train in the US suckkkk, straight up, no matter what style(s) they claim. No athleticism, stamina, imperturbability, experience, and even the boxers punch like females. Y'alls world is gonna be turned upside down soon. Hope you're on the right side of reality. Belee' tha' hype-- Life is a sport! That's why I'll always be harder than y'all 'cause I'm smarter than y'all!

Beyotches!

Not-So Happy HOLYdays, and Generation X-mas...

PS: F U C K this forum. You cats got all the answers. All Kung Poop sucks (except Tai Chi), and the only Shaolin is Shorin. That's it 4 me. Say what you want, you know everything and are more wordly than an ex- AF SpecOps guy who is an MD. Snot-nosed pee wees!!! This is really the Omega Point... Be glad you were graced with true greatness for a year. You'll be hearing from me soon, just not on this BS site. F U C K all of YA'LL!!!

rogue
12-13-2001, 10:52 PM
Hey I do TKD, so I don't want Fred Ettish.

Take care and lighten up for the holidays.

Leonidas
12-13-2001, 11:45 PM
Whats the f*ck was that guys problem. Every style gets bashed once in a while, Shorin probably the least out of all of them. People actually respect it. You dont have to sh*t your panties just because someone was joking with you. Even if they disagreed with you, thats no reason to flip out. This is a forum if you forgot, and for Kung fu. You had to consciously fill out a member registration form. I agreed with you on some points but how many Karateka's have you had streetfights with to dismiss their styles like that.

nobody
12-14-2001, 12:55 PM
i just love it how everyone associates the waterdown of martial arts to everything americans do. its the biggest steriotype ive ever seen. not all of us look for the easy way out, you dont become a world power by being lazy. this guy needs to get a grip.

phantom
12-14-2001, 03:49 PM
Quote: "Even the boxer's fight like females."
Would you be willing to say that to Mike Tyson's face?

Dark Knight
12-17-2001, 10:01 AM
"you know everything and are more wordly than an ex- AF SpecOps guy who is an MD":

And we know how deasdly those Air Force guys are

Budokan
12-17-2001, 01:10 PM
Omegapoint, with that attitude Santa won't bring you any toys this year.

Or the ribbed buttplug you were hoping for...

rogue
12-17-2001, 05:36 PM
Hold on folks, despite the cute name, PJ's and being in the Air Force, Para/Rescue Jumpers are a very elite SO group. Many times they're the ones that go in when an op has gone very bad, or a flyer needs to be rescuded behind enemy lines. Yes they can fight, and quite well. Their training is rated as about the toughest there is. They may not go in and run a war like the Green Hats are doing in Afghanistan, but they are very good at what they do, which is to rescue people even if it means getting into a gun fight to do it.

Dark Knight
12-18-2001, 09:51 AM
"Their training is rated as about the toughest there is."

In the Air Force im sure it is.
No coffee in the morning.

how does it compare to Ranger School? Or Special Forces School?

rogue
12-18-2001, 10:54 AM
Tougher than Ranger. At least on par for any spec ops group, with very heavy EMT training. I'll try and dig up some sites.

norther practitioner
12-18-2001, 12:49 PM
Anyway, getting back to an older question, I would bet the house on the Taiji master.

Dark Knight
12-19-2001, 09:48 AM
"Tougher than Ranger. At least on par for any spec ops group, with very heavy EMT training"

Im sure about the EMT training, but both the the AF and Marines send people to the Army ranger schools for training. You would be suprised how many service members from other services go to Army schools.

Dark Knight
12-19-2001, 09:49 AM
Back on subject: its not the style but how you train.

omegapoint
12-20-2001, 11:38 PM
We train with the Rangers during a portion of our tech school. All PJs and Combat Contollers are weapons, dive and jump masters, and our training is like the rest of Spec-Ops, but like the Army's SFs we specialize in either life saving and search/rescue (PJs) or setting up an effective landing zone or strip to facilitate forward air control. The reason you never hear of AFs SpecOps is 'cause the USAF is about skill AND intelligence, not hocus-pocus and false bravado.

As for the stereotype of AF cats being wusses, that's just ridiculous! Many great MAs legends were airmen (Chuck Norris for example). The fiercest and most successful warriors have always been extremely intelligent. In the words of Mos Def, "I'm harder than y'all cuz I'm smarter than y'all"!

DK you must be an ex-Army grunt, Jarhead or SQUIziD! That's alright though. You have to be semi-smart to get in the Air Farce! That ASVAB was real tuff, hahahahaha!

Dark Knight
12-27-2001, 12:21 PM
"The reason you never hear of AFs SpecOps is 'cause the USAF is about skill AND intelligence, not hocus-pocus and false bravado."

False bravado.....who is searching caves looking for OBL? Who is keeping peace in Kosovo? Somalia?

The Army teaches leaders, the airforce promotes based on how you test. Leadership skills mean nothing in the af.

The Airforce flyís out of S. Cal to a war then flyís home. Army, Marines are there. true warriors putting their lives on the line for the protection of the nation.

The airforce has to get home in time for cnn to report their latest mission.

On a positive note, air force does have better food, living conditions and hotter chicks.

Dark Knight
12-27-2001, 12:23 PM
"You have to be semi-smart to get in the Air Farce! That ASVAB was real tuff, hahahahaha"

Got my MBA from Army Benifits

Leonidas
12-27-2001, 06:52 PM
You really seem to have it in for the Air Force. I guess the military grudges are real.

Asia
12-27-2001, 11:08 PM
This is one hillarious thread!!!!


False bravado.....who is searching caves looking for OBL? Who is keeping peace in Kosovo? Somalia?

Somalia was a nightmare. Kosovo was rather nice except for the riots and the escaped murders running aroung base!

Anyways,

Back on topic


) Kyokushin= An Amalgam of Shorin, Goju and Chinese Kempo techs. Strong, linear karate but bad for the body (no qigong). Not for the old, weak or unathletic (about 80 % of the populace).

This is wrong. First Kyokushin is a mix of SHOTOKAN, Goju, Chinese and Korean Kempo, with splash of jujutsu. It is CIRCULAR in movement to a point then staight to the attack. BAD FOR THE BODY!!! Wrong it will develop a very strong body with proper guidance and training, that can be said for any MA though.

Kyokushin derivatives:

Ashiara, Enshin, Seidokan


Nothing wrong with TKD, although it started as shotokan in disquise. If you ever find yourself in Korea and run into an angry Korean my advice is watch the head before the feet. Remember one fight that happend, our myung jin bus got into and accident with another car that ran the stoplight (street light and marking are just a suggestion:D) Both drivers got out and started yelling a fight ensued. The bus driver blocke a punch grabbed the guy and knocked him out with a 3~4 head butts!!! I saw this happen in other altercations as well. (BTW there are head butts in Kyokushin too. little known fact.)




I don't feel like going through each style now so I will stick to the main points.



The style really doesn't matter. It is how you train. You can get pummelled by a Goju guy just as easily as a shotokan guy. It depends on the person. If he is an aggressive atheletic person he will be trouble no matter what he studied,


I guess you guys know what I train in and which styles I like. These are personal opinions, but they are also based on 20+ years of training in various arts here and in Asia. I have sparred them all and next to Shorin the best sparrers have been Kyokushin guys, but not much more than the Shotokan dudes (watch out for that reverse punch!). Not all karate is equal, contrary to popular belief. Only higher level practitioners know or will say this. Sorry, everything is cool, but it's impossible for pure sport or Japanized styles to offer true intention (umuiri), when pieces of their puzzle are missing.

I not trying to flame but from you posts I see very little evidence of 20+ year of training. Seriously you really show little knowledge of the things around you. Maybe it is because your upset at the rest of the board but this doesn't give you much credibility. Where in Asia are you? Who do you train with? I am heading back to Japan soon maybe I can look you up and we can train and talk.





PJs,

Rogue (is this who I think it is?) Is right they are some pretty tough pple. Still can't fight their way out of a paper bag, but this goes for all Elite soldier. Asia's standing Kosovo record 23W 2L 0D HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!..err....Seriously I respect elite soldiers they go through training the will break a majority of pple they should be admired.:D


You really seem to have it in for the Air Force. I guess the military grudges are real.

Naw All the branches love each other. <snicker> honestly:D A little rivalry between the branches is ok. There is even internal rivalry in each branch. For instance in order to be an 11series soldier in the Army you can only have 3 functioning brain cells!!!(That right grunts I said it get back before I beat you with my whip antenna of death!!!) The biggest reason the Army and Air Force hate each other is because the AF was once a part of the Army now the are a seperate branch and get treated MUCH better!!! **** FLYBOYS! They even get extra money if the HAVE to be stationed on an Army base!!!


Enough of my ramblings!

rogue
12-28-2001, 10:13 AM
Every Spec Op group has their job, right now we got to see the Green Hats do what they do best. Eat goat meat! Really, which is to train and advise a ragtag group of indigenous folk into a fighting force. Not to mention helping the Air Force find their targets.

Yeah it's me Asia, sometimes I'm just a maverick.

Dark Knight
12-28-2001, 10:32 AM
"You really seem to have it in for the Air Force. I guess the military grudges are real."

I have no problem with the air force, and I would reccomend it to anyone. I have spent a lot of time on af bases because of my current job. But they are not all that they think they are.

We need the air force for wars, no one wants to go into a country without it being pounded from above first. The Air Force has missions just as important as the Armys.

The emphasis is different on how the people are trained from the af and Army. When it comes time for promotions the af gives test, and how you do on the test will determine if you are part of the group to be promoted.

In the Army Leadership has a lot to do with it. You are rated on your skills on the job and you are rated on your leadership skills. Even in Ranger school, you can be Joe Stud, but if you do not show excellent leadership skills you will be dropped from the course. Every one is expected to become leaders, an e-5 SGT can be given the responsibility of taking care of a company because he is the highest rank there, and his training is to step up to the plate at any time.

the benifit is that you can spend six years in the Army as a warehouseman, get to SGT then leave, apply for a job at a factory and say that at 25 years old you do have the experience as a supervisor running a warehouse.

Not to knock the Air force, they have very specialized skills also. Leadship does not make you a better computer specialist, or contract specialist or tons of other jobs that do not require you to be a supervisor. And not everyone can be a leader.

All services share common jobs, (computer specialist, aircraft mechanics, pilots (the Army has its own planes also), nurses, doctors, ships (the Army has its own ships and boats)) And every servie has its place.

But dont compare special forces to each other. During Panama many seals were killed because they tried to take an airport. The Navy said at that time that its not Seals job, Rangers take Airports, not Seals.

Army and Marine Special ops people are different than any other.

rogue
12-28-2001, 12:46 PM
Much of the basic training(jump school, dive school) of Spec Ops people is the same, SEALs learn to jump at the same place as the Green Berets. The difference is in the kind of missions each does. SEALs go in more for a hit and run, while GB are more likely to spend months in the field working and training the natives in everything from tactics to first aid. And maybe taking a few bad guys out here and there.:D

Leonidas
12-28-2001, 04:02 PM
Ok so can someone give me a run down of all the special forces and what their jobs are. Or is that classified ;). I really wanted to join the Marines(Tanks are so cool :D) or the Air Force but i dont think i can........ Maybe i'll be a weekend soldier and do the Army or Coast Guard Reserves thing. Actually i was seriously looking into the Merchant Marines also. That'll be cool too. How many of you are actually in the service anyway???????????

Dark Knight
12-28-2001, 04:33 PM
No matter which one you choose you will be happy. They all offer cool stuff to do.

Leonidas
12-28-2001, 07:21 PM
Hopefully i'll get over this asthma thing in a year or 2 with training (if i can even do it). I got a while to decide though.

rogue
12-28-2001, 08:17 PM
Bad news L, the Marines don't have tanks. They take up too much room on ships and they're bad for the Marines tough guy image.

Leonidas
12-29-2001, 03:32 PM
(That sux) It's all good though, they still have Comanches, which is just as cool. They all use guns too:D

omegapoint
12-30-2001, 09:19 PM
Asia asked me where in asia I am. I'm in the USA now but have trained in Okinawa and Angeles City, Philippines. If you're saying you want to engage in kumite with me, well I live in SA, Tx. and LA, Ca. (where I train with Caique and Ryron Gracie in BJJ). I'd love to school you, and believe me I would (no conceit just reality).

As for Kyokushin not being a Japanese sportified offshoot of NahaTe based styles (Goju) and ShuriTe based styles (Shorin and its diluted sister Shotokan), I was on point. Don't test me, I ain't no web warrior. Oyama was WWF before McMahon, and a master of hyperbole. Kyokushin is lame-ass third rate Japanese commercial kickboxing. That's that and that's the facts, jizack!

As for Rangers and Somalia. If it wasn't for my NCOIC in the AF (see Balckhawk Down- maybe they'll represent with the TRUTH) and his PJ partners, those dirt dumb Rangers they were assigned to protect and save with their "wimpy" skills would have been totally obliterated. PJs are more than Rangers and we dive and jump with Army SFs and SEALS. But I'm speaking to grunts who want reality the way they want it, not how it is!

Look some of this up. Rangers are broke PJs and CCs. Every special operator knows this. Hell, we practically wax all the SpecOps types during the annual "rodeo" regardless of which service they belong to. 90% of Army fools are cannon fodder and second rate, plain and simple. Everyone knows this, too. No need to butter isht up! Sorry, but the Social Darwinist totally believe in population control, and one way to accomplish this is by having foot soldiers and jarheads. Get with it!

There is no competition cause we are the best here--- Slick Rick

Asia
12-31-2001, 12:45 AM
Asia asked me where in asia I am. I'm in the USA now but have trained in Okinawa and Angeles City, Philippines. If you're saying you want to engage in kumite with me, well I live in SA, Tx. and LA, Ca. (where I train with Caique and Ryron Gracie in BJJ). I'd love to school you, and believe me I would (no conceit just reality).

PM more contact info. I would love to meet! But don't be surprised if you are the one schooled!!!!:D Not conciet but REAL fact!!! But I won't give too much away I love the surprised look on pples face!!! I hear this boast so much!!!! LOL
I trying to take you seriously but if you look again I said talk and TRAIN not CHALLENGE!!!! But if you want a challenge match I am game, just do me the favor and actually show up. If you have a cell phone pm me the number I WILL call and set things up. I will give you my number as well. So you know I DO exist and I am serious. I should be statsied in March. SA, TX is good for me.




As for Kyokushin not being a Japanese sportified offshoot of NahaTe based styles (Goju) and ShuriTe based styles (Shorin and its diluted sister Shotokan), I was on point. Don't test me, I ain't no web warrior. Oyama was WWF before McMahon, and a master of hyperbole. Kyokushin is lame-ass third rate Japanese commercial kickboxing. That's that and that's the facts, jizack!

Again showing little knowlege. Did you really do any training in Japan or Okinawa? Because like I said your post don't show the 20+ yrs of expereince you profess.

Dark Knight
12-31-2001, 09:15 AM
"and we dive and jump with Army SFs and SEALS. "

Everyone does. Thats part of their jobs, to train the other services

Its pretty obvious that you have no idea of what you are talking about. Iím sure you are proud of your air force accomplishments, after all, a short basic training where the hardest part is getting your underwear just right in the drawer is something to brag about. And now you may have to go without cable or coffee for days at a time....wow.

Leonidas
12-31-2001, 01:30 PM
You Military ppl are hilarious :D. Didn't mean to start a p*ssing battle but its too late now so keep us posted on that CHALLENGE MATCH.
Ok Omega i know you study Shorin. And Asia if i remember correct you study Bajiquan and something else???? Anyways if its official post it on the main board.

Asia
01-01-2002, 06:31 AM
You Military ppl are hilarious AND WE ARE
DEFENDING YOUR COUNTRY!!!! (scary huh:eek: )




And Asia if i remember correct you study Bajiquan and something else????

Besides being the Dark Lord of Baji I also play at Kyokushin, Shotokan, Ninpo, savate, jujutsu, the list goes on!!:D What can I say I like to fight!!!:D I don't mind challenge matches. Some of my long time friends came through such maches. My best friend and I exchanged real blows before we became friends. It will be intresting.

Leonidas
01-01-2002, 02:12 PM
What do you know. i might be taking up Baji. Or atleast going to a school that teaches it. I'm really looking forward to learning Piguazhang though (I cant seem to find any info on the net about it though:(). Maybe in a year or 2 if where both still alive we could have a friendly sparring match. It'll be interesting to see totally opposite styles going at it. You have your hand full though. First Omega now Ralek. Good luck.

Asia
01-02-2002, 08:07 AM
Glad to se your taking the plunge!!! Goto Cyberkwoon. Fabien has a good article on Piqua there and go to the Northstar Project forum to get more info on Baji and Piqua.


It seems Ralek is just a poser so I am not intrested in him as much, but if the guy grows some balls and tries not to weasel out of the fight then..... I really hope Omega comes through it been a whil since my last internet match!!! ( I enjoy this WAY too much!:D ) But we will see. I am still waiting of a PM from them. And I will be please to cross fists with another Baji brotheren!

omegapoint
01-06-2002, 06:50 PM
Hey DKNY: Get a friggin' clue. Look some shi t up. You're obviously a typical Army dumba s s that doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground. We are superduper rangers with brains. Basic training is a joke in every service except for the Marines. I've had many a wimpy friend go through army basic. I only know one successful ex-army enlisted guy. All the rest are pukes, period. As a CC or PJ everyday is basic training until you get out! Look some of this up. Don't be a master of assumption!

As for asia, I ain't giving you nothing personal of mine. When you get stationed at Ft. Sam we'll talk then. I'll be posting here periodically. You better be up on your skills though. We'll have a waiver and everything. I'm a doc so after I submit you and you fail to tap I can fix you. Then again we can exchange combat "knowledge" and walk away smarter and harder. It's on you. Bagua and Hsing-I are good basic fighting styles, but know that I also train in BJJ under Ryron Gracie and Caique. So train in Judo or wrestling or something, 'cause you ain't gonna find a BJJ instructor that has the knowledge of those cats! Now who would give you a heads up like that?

rogue
01-06-2002, 09:15 PM
OP, Asia has been missing the last couple of days, he may be out in the field freezing his arse off.

Asia
01-07-2002, 09:09 AM
First thing: CMTC SUCKS!!!!!!

Second thing: Why does this BDE constantly whine about getting the network up BUT can't keep a simple heater RUNNING!!!!!!


OP,

I don't want personal info I just want a REAL way to contact you. I have traveled many times to train with pple and you can imagine how upseting it is to deal with a NO SHOW. I am very fair I will return the same info so you can contact me. I am not shy;) I don't think I'll ever get stationed at Ft. Sam, which is a shame with all the cute medics that run around there, oh wait I'm married:D

Tell you what. Email me and we will go form there!!!

omegapoint
01-07-2002, 05:50 PM
Rogue,
No doubt. That is something the Marines and Army cats have to put up with way, way more than the flyboys. With the exception of a few AFSCs (MOSs) like SpecOps, SPs and pilots and their support staff, AF guys never have to go in the field (well maybe 2 days out of the year for "Readiness" training). The Navy guys have to be out at sea for months on end, too. That's why a lot of kids try to get in the AF. It's still prison, but minimum vs. maximum security lockup, hahaha!

Asia,
My wife doesn't want me to give you my email account. She's really "cautious". If you ever make it to SA or South Texas, hit me up on the forum. I'll see it and we'll take it from there. I usually leave SA for LA in April so if your ever in the So-Cal area hit me up on this forum, and maybe we can train at Gracie Torrance. Ryron Gracie now runs it with his bro, Renner, and they are good friends. I've haven't met but 4 people in my life that "enjoy" fighting (3 are Gracies), so you probably know your stuff. It would be fun and educational for both of us!

BTW sir, I have trained in Okinawa. I received my Yudansha ranking while testing at Shuguro Nakazato's Dojo the Shorinkan, in the 80s. I have also visited many Okinawan and mainland Japanese dojos of other styles. While training with Fusei Kise, he often took his promising students to tournaments and other schools so that we could evaluate their fighting systems. We visited Mas Oyama's Kyokushinkai dojo twice, once sparring with their students. They were pretty good, but lacked the subtleties present in many Okinawan styles. Very, very hard and strong, but their technique left something to be desired! We would also "bite" effective techs and Kise would then implement them into his competitive training. So, yes, I have trained on Okinawa but the quality of karateka was no better or worse than what I encountered in the Philippines (the Philippines is a much "rougher" place after all, and still is)!

Dark Knight
01-08-2002, 01:00 PM
"Hey DKNY: Get a friggin' clue. Look some shi t up. You're obviously a typical Army dumba s s that doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground. We are superduper rangers with brains. "

OK, lets look at your communication skills. You have a HS education, but obviously you went to one of those schools that push you through to keep funding. You canít make a sentence, your sentence structure is really bad, your spelling is questionable and your "superduper" vocabulary is at a 14 year olds level.

That being said, Iím sure the AF has some pretty high speed troops that go in for rescues, I wouldnít expect less, after all you have to go into enemy territory to recover people.

But you are clueless to what Rangers do, their skills are way beyond just getting out and killing people. At ranger training they are expected to learn all the fighting and survival skills that put them at the top of the combat list, but most important is the leadership skills that are developed. If a person cannot lead he cannot be a Ranger. At anytime in the course you are put into leadership positions and expected to perform as a highly trained leader.

Ranger school is considered a leadership school for Officers, an officer does not have to be in a combat position to go to Ranger school. The lessons there are to develop people to lead the military in the future.

So while you are trying to learn to read and write (I highly recommend you take a course) the Army is out training the future leaders of this country.

Kristoffer
02-07-2002, 06:04 AM
hmm.. wasn't this thread about Karate? What's with all the army crap discussions!!?? :rolleyes: :D

Leonidas
02-09-2002, 01:37 PM
Thats a good question Kristoffer, and what did i learn about Karate...........um lets see...........nothing. But its always fun to see people go at it.
:p

omegapoint
02-14-2002, 07:12 PM
Ranking:
1) Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu
2) Kojo Ryu
3) Kobayashi (Shorinkan) Shorin Ryu
4) Shobayashi Shorin Ryu
5) Motobu Ryu
6) Ryuei Ryu
7) Ishimine Ryu
8) Shorinji Ryu
9) Kyokushin
10) Matsumura Kenpo
11) Isshin Ryu
12) Goju Ryu (Higaonna style)
13) Matsubayashi Ryu (Shorin)
14) Shotokan
15) Japanese Goju
16) Tae kwon Do

These are the arts I have been privy to observe or train in. This is just an informed opinion. Do whatchalike!

Leonidas
02-15-2002, 04:24 PM
Geez, Matsubayashi is really low on the list. Why? and styles i either never heard of or won't have the opportunity to study are really high. I thought Okinawan Goju was pretty good too. Too bad theirs no Matsumura Seito in NYC. I've actually heard that recommended alot, but i thought the Tsuruken kata was a myth.

omegapoint
02-15-2002, 07:40 PM
Leo: I left many of the Kenpo arts out for a reason (money-makin' is not self defense), but in actuality I would also rate Kajukenbo as a really good system. Now a lot of the American Kenpo stuff is just whack (not all), but of course there are always exceptions. Kobayashi is taught in NY but I don't think it's in NYC. A lot of the people who trained on Okinawa in the 60s and early 70s live in smaller urban areas or outside any major city (Coffman, Lindsey, Chandler, Sandoval, etc.).

As for Hakutsuru being a myth; the essence of ALL karate is the crane styles (Shouting Crane, Feeding Crane, etc.) and many of these principles are taught even at the kyu or non-black belt ranks in traditional Shuri Te derived Karate. Several senior Matsumura Orthodox stylists teach Hakutsuru with a personal twist. When you reach 5th Dan it is customary for the Okinawan Karateka to try and personalize their given style. After all, experiences like bunkai, are varied. With the change at the turn of the century, towards a Japanese standardization of KarateJutsu, most of the tuite and kyusho techs were replaced with closed fist strikes and higher, flashy kicks. That is why Matsubayashi Ryu Karate Do, in my estimation is the term a lot of Okinawan Sensei use to denote Karate that is not up to par.

Don't get me wrong. The karate styles I listed (with the exception of the first 2) are very close to the original intent of their modern founders, and most are Itosu-Ha (faction). They are all good styles. But don't get it twisted, all styles are not equal. That would be like saying that just because a Yugo is a car it's of the same quality as a Jag, Porsche, Rolls or Lamborghini. Itosu wanted to change the combat principles he learned from Bushi Matsumura, into something that could be taught to school-aged children. Regardless of this change, styles such as Kobayashi, Shobayashi, and Okinawan (Higaonna) Goju Ryu are well rounded arts. Kyokushin and Shotokan have proven themselves in the arena many times, but what is the street efficacy of these styles? Probably very good, but I do know that the Government doesn't teach their principles to their elite operators and spy types. They tend to use arts such as BJJ, Shorin, Isshin or JKD.

Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention Uechi Ryu. Although it is an extremely demanding system, it will make you tough as nails. Its use of open hand techs is very Chinese. I like that, and I think the style is also in the top 3. All karate is supposed to be hard-soft (in fact that's exactly what GoJu means). Most Japanese styles start off hard and get harder. The same can even be said for many Goju styles, and these hard training principles often lead to a short life. Few Japanese and Okinawan Karateka that practice these hard-hard styles live beyond 75. Many Okinawan masters live beyond 85. This might be genetic, or it might be a genetic attribute triggered by training. After all, the aim of karate is to be able to avoid confrontation as much as possible in order to live a long and fruitful life. It isn't to practice hard Sanchin, sparring and free-fighting so that you'll be crippled at 65 or die of a stroke. How many times does one have to prove and reprove simple fighting principles?

In the end a "Master" of Karate should be indistinguishable in his fighting methods from a Fujian White Crane Sifu (especially those claiming Shaolin lineage). Although Ti or Te adds a bit of Okinawan Grappling and the closed fist strikes, his karate should look like good Southern White Crane Chuan Fa. Some Goju looks exactly like Tiger Gung Fu at the higher levels, but it definitely doesn't look like Sonny Chiba-Do. The Okinawans that practice their "koryu" or old school styles always give props to the Chinese progenitors. Why should they do this? Why did the Japanese change the "kara" character from "Tang" (Chinese) to "kara" (Japanese) which denotes empty? Well that is a different lesson, but any true karateka will tell you his art is an Okinawan influenced Chinese art and not a Japanese influenced Okinawan art.

My list isn't all encompassing. I've left out many good styles such as Savate. It depends on what you are looking to train for. If it's for personal glory and to prove yourself to the world train in Kyokushin or Muay Thai. If you want history, philosophy and the whole Japanese ambience pick Shotokan, ****o Ryu or Japanese Goju. I wanna be able to protect myself on the street and at the same time learn a non-competition oriented Okinawan art, so I've stuck with Shorin, although when I was a Shorinkan practitioner (Kobayashi) I did spar and win at tourney-tag, a lot, regardless of the opponents style. I think that the best Kobayashi guys with the proper bag and road-work, would demolish those K1 superathletes. Kobayashi has Kumite down to an art!

Happy searching and training. Good luck in the MAs and life...

rogue
02-15-2002, 08:55 PM
Where'd you pick up the SO Shorin/Isshin connection? That's not too well known. Not hidden but not common knowlege either.

Leonidas
02-15-2002, 09:13 PM
Naw, not real interested in learning about Japanese Karate. They butchered the Sanchin kata and now it's got people thinking that its dangerous. Can you explain alittle more about Uechi Ryu, and what about Shorin Ryu USA. Oh yea, thanx for answering my questions. Big help :D

Stacey
02-19-2002, 02:51 PM
Karate ranks with wushu or bad kung fu. The movements in the kata are often very exotic looking, but they have no idea what the movements are for, very rarely you see a karateka who moves from the waist or from the ground up. Most have no sensetivity and bad chi kung. Their joint locks are very linear and strength orientated and don't have the leverage of chin na, jj, tai chi or aikido.

They consider all other styles soft. There is nothing soft about goju ryu. Waving your hands around, devoid of waist movement isn't soft, its floppy. Frankly I think its pathetic that peope still learn karate. One in 1,000 schools are worth learning from. The rest have Japanese master that know less than your average 2 year kung fu practitioner. In fact, many southern kung fu stylist know more about karate kata than the Karate Masters. They can spot the applications, the karate guys have very simple apps, or throw in a pressure point from dillman and claim it was always there "hidden".

Its a bunch of crap, they give MA a bad name. For the most part, there is nothing athletic about your average karate school.

Leonidas
02-19-2002, 05:04 PM
I have to resist the urge to waste my time and post something intelligent.............its so hard. I'm not gonna even insult with the whole Chicks with Dix thing but all can is go down to your local Shotokan Dojo and say all that you posted to them. Shotokan is considered school boy Karate but even they can still hold there own against any 20 year + Kung Fu stylist.

omegapoint
02-19-2002, 05:49 PM
Stace': You speak of karate as one art. Japanese karate is sport-oriented, for the most part. The few traditional OKINAWAN Sensei out there teach a Karate that neither looks nor behaves like JAPANESE karate. I hope you understand this.

Miyamoto Musashi once said " if one is unaware of something then it does not exist in their reality". You should watch the generalizations. I get caught up in the stereotypes myself sometimes. Nothing is universal (all things are), but some things are orthodox. (?)

Rogue: PJs are SpecOps, too. That's where. How's life and training? Take care...

Leo: No prob' bruh. Hope I helped...

MA fanatic
02-20-2002, 04:46 AM
I trained in martial arts for over 16 years. Have had the
opportunity to spar with martial artists from virtually every major
system (from Kyokushinkai karate, to bando, to brazilian jj). The
toughest guys I ever faught full contact were guys who trained
for NHB competition (even though as some of you put it, NHB fighting is still a sport...which it is). The hardest kickers have been
Muay Thai Kickboxers (boxed with them for 3 years), and believe it
or not, the dreaded TKD fighters (Olympic WTF guys kick like mules but no low line kicking knowledge). One of my friends, who trained with an Olympic TKD team KOed a praying mantis Kung Fu instructor here in IL. with a solid kick to the ribs. I have trained in Kung Fu for four years. Have heard stories about the potential deadlyness of my striking skills. Guess what? The moment I stepped into the ring with a tough boxer or Muay Thai guy, I trully learned the lesson in humbleness. There is nothing like puching with someone who trully knows how to punch and that is all he/she does. Just as I thought that my stand up skills were good, in a little match I quickly realized that no matter how good you are standing, a good ground technician will take you down. Wrestlers, BJJ grapplers, Pancration guys, shoot boxer, judoka, they don't have stories about death Dim Mak, but they fight like they train and train like they fight. And, they train hard as hell. When those guys shoot in, you better pray you're willing to take your martial art to the ground level.

Not all karate styles are bad. Not all Kung Fu systems are good. The Gracies are not unbeatable. All depends on the teacher, and student.

Oh, it was Rorion Gracie who was first challenged by Benny Arquidez. Benny was an accomplished world champion kick boxer (in those days it was called full contact karate).

MA fanatic

MA fanatic
02-20-2002, 04:52 AM
Karate had actually been introduced to Japan in 1920 by
Gichin Funakoshi. At the time Funakoshi hid all the pressure point techniques and his knoweldge or the meridian striking from the Japanese. He taught kata to Japanese which was meaningless. Before his death, Funakoshi's secrets were revealed. But, during that time what the Japanese lacked in deep knowledge, they made up in hard training. I'd have my money on some Kyokushinkai, Saidokan, or Shidokan guy if they are matched against a Goju Rye, Uechi Ryu, Wado Ryu, etc. etc. Okinawan stylist. The Okinawans stylists I have seen (and this is only my experience I haven't seen them all) know many deep interpretations of kata, but were so out of shape that a single leg kick, punch to chest or a quick take down would end the match. Like I said before, all depends on the student and teacher.

MA fanatic

MA fanatic
02-20-2002, 05:04 AM
Stacey: I would be interested in knowing which systems of karate you have been exposed to? I would also be interesting in knowing which systems of Kung Fu you have been exposed to?
You don't have to answer if you don't wish of course.

Stacey, it sounds like someone did a good brainwashing game with you. Wu Shu and karate are nothin alike. As a matter of fact, there are Karate masters who understand kata was well as Kung Fu masters understand their forms. To say that karateka can't move, is like saying that Kung Fu forms are just old outdated
weapons.

As a matter of fact in Battle Of The Masters tournament held in Chicago in 93 or 94 (can't recall exact year), the man who won that no rules tournament was a Japanese Shidokan master from Chicago (the guy had a world record for breaking baseball bats with his shins). The kung fu masters with their deep knowledge of forms and death strikes, couldn't take his leg kicks and his kicks to he ribs. This guy never talked of secret knowledge, he just trained and dominated a no rules tournament (only rule no eye gouging, even groin strikes were allowed). So don't tell me that Karate stylists are all pathetic. As many examples as you can bring in of Karate being pathetic, I can give you twice as many examples for Kung Fu being rediculous.

If you want to trully test yourself, get off your high horse, and see reality. Walk over to Kyokushinkai school, Saidokan school, Shidokan school, or Sabaki school and see how you fair against their pathetic techniques. My prediction, you'd be KOed by their blue belt.

MA fanatic

omegapoint
02-20-2002, 10:48 PM
MA Fan: Whether you practice Muay Thai, Shidokan or one of the ryuha of Kyokushin karate, all you're truly practicing is modern kickboxing. You can train hard on the heavybag using front, roundhouse, back and side kicks and get the benefits you would training in sport styles. Muay Thai is a good sparring art, but I have seen countless Muay Thai guys overseas lose to some know-nothing street fighter that had heart and real fighting experience. Those baseball bat kicks need room to be executed and their elbow and hand strikes lack true speed and linear application. Kyokushin is a little more conducive to true self-protection, plus they teach kata and weapons (kobudo/kobujutsu)which are very important supplemental training tool, regardless of what anyone thinks.

I train in BJJ under Caique and at times with Ryron Gracie. It is a good traditional art which, like true Shorin, teaches sound biomechanics and efficient self-defense techs. Training in BJJ or Judo that is heavy on early Ne-Waza skills (before brown or black belt- a real rarity) will enhance your overall understanding of physical confrontation, but like the aforementioned sport styles, it is lacking in some departments.

MA Fan what do you train in now? Have you ever stuck to one art for more than 7 years? The USA is truly the land of the Jack of All Trades and a Master of None. Anyone who has trained extensively in a well-rounded art or style should know that Kyokushin is nothing special. I sparred at Mas Oyama's dojo when I was stationed in Japan and beat most of their browns and blacks when I was a green belt. Fusei kise use to take us to multiple dojos to get a feel for different styles and we would talk about what we experienced when we were done. Mas Oyama was a good marketer of his "art" and self, but if you read Rob Smith's "Martial Musings" book you can gleen som fact behind the fantasy. I trained in Japan and Okinawa and can say that Kyokushin is a good Japanes style but an average overall fighting system. That's based on experience not assumption. Anyone can circuit train, do plyometrics, stretch a lot, lift weights and play tourney tag or kickbox and get the same benefits that most of the Japanese sport "styles" offer. The ultimate aim is for a regular average sized or smaller individual to be able to protect himself and/or those around him or her. Juicing and training for 8 hours a day in anything will make you better than the average Joe, no matter the style! Superficiality is not the pinnacle of success that is just what you've been brainwashed to believe. Someone who works a regular job trying to support himself and his own doesn't have time to tear his joints and rest of body up by HARD EXTERNAL training. It's about fighting so you don't get killed, not killing yourself through overtraining and fighting.

I guess like any other man made concept or term "fighting karate" is relative. 'Nawmean? BTW Wado-Ryu is Japanese and not Okinawan. I will say that many of the principles seem Okinawan but they are based on another incomplete art called Aikido. Out of the 100's of people killed in the tragedy of 9/11 only one Judoka decided to become proactive (and some cats he convinced to help). Tournaments, K1, Pride, none of that junk will teach you what to do when the isht hits the fan. You fight like you train. Plus I've seen multiple K1s and have yet to be impressed. What are they doing that is so special? Like I said some cars are SUVs and some are military issue HumVs or APCs. Use the vehicle that fits your situation or "reality".

MA fanatic
02-21-2002, 05:13 AM
Omega:
I agree with all your points. I'm not sure where the argument is. If you reread what I have writen, you will see that I say the same things. You asked me if I stayed in an art for over 7 years. My friend, it sounds like in 20 years you have changed, and skimmed through more martial arts than anyone I have ever heard of. You appear to have lived all over the orient and have sparred with most karateka. You were not impressed by K1? Have you ever fought anyone of the K1 caliber? Have you actually sparred with anyone good from any style? Of course a Muay Thai guy can be beaten on a street. But I have seen more Kung Fu, Aikido and other arts beaten on the street as well. I have also seen them crushed in the ring. Oh, what a marvelous coincidense. I train in BJJ. Have been training in BJJ for the last 3 years. To make things even more interesting, I train under Prof. Caique as well. You must have heard about John Marsh stomping a Kung Fu master who stated that his style will defeat all grapplers. I think what some full contact styles did, was take the BS out of martial arts. You see them as two demensional, I see that as being realistic. I see these people say, "If you think you have some unstoppable powers or death touches, try them on us." All of the sudden, no challengers, just a bunch of excuses, empty talk from brainwashed insecure students. If you're so skilled in martial arts history, you certainly must remember the first Aron Banks tournaments where he pitted mixed styles. Back then many masters said, "our art is too deadly to compete with. If only we had 'no rules' events, we would show other styles." All of the sudden, in 93 there were 'no rules' events. And guess what, Kung Fu stylists were being crushed by grapplers and hard strikers. Soft artists were being KOed in seconds (remember that Pa Kua guy who got hit on the chin in 9 seconds by Don Frye and went out like a light switch?). Now classical artists are saying, "well if only we could use eye gouges, we would show them." I think they are the ones who still would be taken down except instead of an arm bar, guys like John Marsh (a Caique student) would gouge their eyes out. Omega, you present yourself as someone who is unstoppable and all knowing. Perhaps you are a very tough guy. But just because you were tougher than some top Oyama people (which I doubt), it doesn't mean it is not a valid art. I KOed a Wing Chun guy with a low thai kick high thai kick combination. I'm not even that good. Does that mean Wing CHun sucks? Please don't think i'm one of those hard core mma guys who doesn't believe in any other art.
I do realize that mma is not street fighting. I am also well aware
of the limmitation of bjj. BJJ is a great art, but it as many weakness as well.

MA fanatic

Braden
02-21-2002, 05:29 AM
MA Fanatic - I'm not interested in the topic at hand, but just to correct some of your misinformation: The fellow John Marsh fought did not study any style of kungfu, and the alleged bagua man was actually from another chinese style.

BJJ, Muay Thai and the rest, despite your claims, have their share of 'dim mak death touch' stories. The fictitious no-defeat, hundreds-of-matches records of early Gracies, and the ability to shatter concrete with your shins come to mind. They also, again despite frantic claims to the contrary, rest upon the legend of 'old masters' just as much as the karate or kungfu guys. Start a conversation with any BJJ or Muay Thai proponent and you will immediately be faced with evidence of 'their' superiority - stories of other people doing well with the arts.

And it's unfortunate to hear about your bad experiences with kungfu. However, like you yourself have suggested, it's best not to extrapolate based on your limited experienced to all of reality.

MA fanatic
02-21-2002, 06:18 AM
Braden: I know perfectly well about the claims bjj and muay thai guys have made. Let me assure you, that should you go to a legit bjj or muay thai dojo, the guys would be more than willing to back up their claims. I think the rediculous claims of hundreds of victories you were referring two was Rickson Gracie fight record. He says he's undefeated in over 300 or so matches. Mario Sperry claims 273. I think the misunderstanding here is that Rickson never claimed they were No Rules Fights. Rickson had been competing in Judo, Sambo, JJ, other forms or grappling and No Rules competitions since he was 17 years old. His record is not that amazing considering that just to win a Judo tournament one may have to win 8 or 9 matches. There are other fighters with such impressive records. When it comes to shattering bricks with shins, it can be done. It has been done. It continues to be done even on ESPN. Just like Kung Fu guys who shatter coconuts with their palms. I am not against Kung Fu. I love all arts. I am against bull **** which all arts are guilty of. BJJ guys claiming that their art is "all you need for the street" is a bunch of crap. Even the gracies cross train. But, for a Kung Fu guy to say that his art is unbeatable, as some of the forum members have, is also moronic. No art is unbeatable.

MA fanatic

Braden
02-21-2002, 06:40 AM
Fanatic, I agree with you completely. Kungfu guys make stupid claims about their arts. Omega shouldn't be dismissive of arts just because he defeated one of their practitioners. You're absolutely right and I agree completely.

I was only reacting, like I said, to some of the misinformation in your post.

Your posts sounded just as dismissive, despite what you say now, of the styles you don't like, as Omega's did of the styles he didn't like. In both cases it was wrong.

As for Rickson and Sperry's 300-0 records, I've got to assume you're kidding when you try to explain how it's true. We both know it's not. As for breaking bricks on your shins, yes I know it can be done. So can the claims of the kungfu guys, as you said yourself. It doesn't change the fact that both get thrown around as some kind of magic pill to justify what the respective practitioners are doing. In other words, it's the exact same situation for each case - which is exactly what I said.

As for the BJJ and Muay Thai guys backing up their claims - come on now. How are they going to back up that Rickson has a 300-0 record? I mean, aside from trying to hide video evidence to the contrary. ;)

MA fanatic
02-21-2002, 07:21 AM
Braden:

You sound like an angry man. What exactly are your issues? As a matter of fact Sperry and Rickson have a list of apponents they have fought and beaten. Sperry has won the bjj world championship I believe 6 times (I may be wrong). You can't even get to an international level competition without having close to a hundred matches under your belt. I'm not sure what your background is, but most Olympic level TKD fighters will have the same record. As for No Rules records, Rickson, Sperry, Rockson, all can produce of list of fighters (names, last names, schools they were from and date/ location of the fights). So yes, they can back up some of their "bull ****." Not a single Gracie had ever stated that all those victories came from NHB or Vale Tudo matches. And, Gracies have lost. Rickson had last in a sambo tournament and judo tournament based on those rules. He had not lost in NHB. They have been only saying up until this point that they had no losses in NHB. Which they had not up until recently. All have also admitted that their own father had his arm broken by a Japanese Judo master in what is called the longest fight in recorded martial arts history (3:45). So what exactly am I bull****ing about? As for bricks being smashed with Shins, yes, it has been done. And, I have also seen guys smash bricks with fists, and baseball bats with shins. Does that prove fighting ability? Possibly not. As for Muay Thai guys, from the ones I have met, all would love to test themselves against any stand up fighter willing to get in the ring. Most would also agree to set special rules should the fighter require special rules.

MA fanatic

MA fanatic
02-21-2002, 07:28 AM
Hey, change of topic. I just noticed that this forum corrects inappropriate language. Wow. I'm impressed.

JUst for the record, I don't believe anyone can fight 300 fights and not have a loss. I can believe that a fighter can have that many matches (including sanctioned tournament matches) and not have a loss. I have heard of similar records for Olympic TKD fighters, wrestlers, and athletes from other sports. As for NHB, I don't think Rickson even had 100. I did see a list of fighters he beat (Brazil and US) with names, locations, last names, and school names from which they came from. That list had over 70 names on it. I think Gracies are putting a list of all of Rickson's matches (collecting old tournament data). That list can in fact be over 300. As for Gracies losing, well we have all seen them lose in NHB as well as sport BJJ.

I should mention that though I practice bjj, I am not a hard core follower of the system. I love to gapple and see it as a great ground fighting art. Ground fighting can't be dismissed as not important. But, bjj has many wholes and doesn't provide many answers for the street.

MA fanatic

Braden
02-21-2002, 01:32 PM
Rofl. No dude, I'm not even vaguely an angry man. Although I think it's unfortunate that your method of reply was to attack the poster rather the content.

Although you spent a paragraph suggesting I was ignorant for doubting the 300-0 record, you finally admitted you yourself don't believe it, so I'm satisfied.

MA fanatic
02-21-2002, 07:33 PM
Dude, I'm sorry you felt under attack. I was joking with the angry man remark. You started at me by saying that I post b.s. so I said that you sounded angry. I never wrote that I believed in the 300 victory record. But, like I said, the Gracies talk about the 300 fights as matches. Rickson doesn't claim to have 300 no holds barred victories. At least I never heard him say it. Some of his followers, may have just made that up. He has a list of 70 or so people who he did fight in NHB matches (some challenge matches and some in a tournament arena). These matches have been video taped and recorded. The other matches are just tournament matches from various competitions, be it judo, bjj, or sambo. Rickson competed in many grappling events. Marrio Sperry has close to 300 victorie in martial arts matches. But, they also include tournaments, world championships, pan am games, and Vale Tudo competitions. Considering that Mario Sperry is in his mid 30s, and started his competing at the age of 10, it is very normal to have that many fights. I have heard similar fight records from Karate, TKD, Judo, and other professional athletes. As a matter of fact, one BJJ champion (wont mention names) conducted a seminar and at the end challenged all the seminar members to a full contact grappling match. Those who wanted to fight NHB style were welcome to try as well. Out of 100 who attended, only a few actually threw a punch. He tapped out the rest. Bang, an instant 100 victories. Now all that guy didwas go down the roster of those who attended the seminar, made a list, and you have 100 victories over stylists from other martial arts. Does it make you good? Hell yeah. Does it make you unbeatable? Not really.

MA fanatic

Kempo Guy
02-25-2002, 07:23 PM
I have to agree with one of omegapoint's earlier posts that Shorin based arts are far more effective than Japanese Karate styles such as Kyokushin (if I were to choose a Japanese Karate style, I'd probably choose something like Ashihara).

Having studied both, I have to say Ryukyu Kempo (Shorin ryu) has more depth and sophistication.

Omegapoint,
If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to check out Seiyu Oyata Sensei in Missouri. Although I've never had the honor to study directly with him, I have trained with some of his students. Really opened my eyes as to what Karate is all about. Especially when it comes to breaking down Kata, i.e. the Tuite and Kyusho applications. They also practice Bogu Kumite, which is very different from the Kumite I was used to from Kyokushin but I have to say it gives you a false sense of confidence to have the gear on. You get knocked out just as easy. :D

I no longer train in Karate, as I now study Neijia, but I'm surprised as to how close some of the Tuite applications are to the throws of Ba Gua.

Just my 2 yen...

KG

MA fanatic
02-25-2002, 09:55 PM
Kempo:
I'm just curious, how is Oyata as a teacher. I trained with one of his students, who was also a George Dillman follower. Though I haven't trained under Oyata, I was not impressed with Dillman students. Seemed like all were too concerned with pressure poing applications of forms to trully give conditioning too much thought. As a matter of fact I have seen one Kyoshu Jitsu guy get choked out in the UFC after trying several pressure point strikes strikes. I have also seen on guy get KOed by a skilled boxer. Those two were not Oyata students, but were students of Kyoshu jitsu. I am interested in hearing more about Oyata and his classes. From what I heard from my instructor, the guy is amazing.

MA fanatic

omegapoint
02-26-2002, 01:35 AM
MA Fan: Sorry if I came across as confrontational. I agree with about 98% of what you've posted (there are no absolutes in nature). BJJ is awesome. Muay Thai is solid. Kyokushinkai is ruff, and boxers with proper dynamics and use of biomechanics are virtually unbeatable in the striking department. Don't get me wrong, those K1 cats are awesome at what they do. It's just that the average martia artist would never be a K1 level guy. Those dudes are professional kickboxers. The average dojo guy is nowhere as good as Hugg, Hooste, Aertes, Smith or Rutten. Plus the average MA has about an hour or 2 of training time in a day! We are not in disagreement on many things. It's just that it's hard to relay the true meaning of things when feelings and expressions have to be inferred rather than observed. I didn't mean to say you haven't been training for a long time, but how long have you been training and in what system(s)? Regardless of the length time, it's obvious you know what you are talking about. True, I have trained in a few styles (some of the best in my estimation) but I was a Yudansha in Shorin before I began to study other systems. That's the Matsumura Orthodox way. Hohan Soken himself encouraged having a strong root in one system and learning as much about mano-a-mano combat as possible. One of the reasons we trained and observed with many dojos on the Mainland and Ryukyus was to "bite" some of their most effective techniques! Plus, you train with my friend Caique who is a real cool cat and genuinely good person! We are brothers of sorts.

Kempo Guy: Oyata is well known for his understanding of Ti principles. Is that who heads the Ryukyu Kempo organization your friends were a part of? If they are students of Dillman, then that's a different story altogether. I will say that the kyusho jitsu learned in Matsumura Seito doesn't claim that Dim Mak or Dian Xue is the panacea to hard and proper training. I will say that the pp techs taught by Sensei Lindsey (my current techer) are used in a different manner. Also, we learn to apply Tuite (Ti) holds on active, full motion opponents. There are no demonstrations of static pp applications. Still, Dillman should be commended for attempting to interpret kata application (bunkai) and refocusing karate training on the practice of kata as the template of the fighting form. Yes, Oyata sensei is good and it's good to hear a real karate mans name come from a nonkarateka. As for the tuite/bagua connection: I wouldn't doubt it, but I do know that before karate was formulated and prior to contact with China the Okinawans practiced their own form of "wrestling" or grappling called Gyakute/Tuite/Ti which included groundfighting. Okinawan "Sumo" was also very popular. It was more like Judo than Japanese Sumo Wrestling. As for bogu sparring, we use the protective bogu gear in our dojo, but only rarely. After one's been sparring for years, 2 man drills, full-contact, should suffice. Ashihara Karate is very good karate regardless of natural origin. I like their "Fighting Kata". It's a good regression to the way many Okinawan Senseis use to teach karate. This is how they wanted karate to be passed down: as a means to better arm yourself for real confrontation. Many of these fighting "secrets" are in the kata. I just wish more Japanese styles would respect karate in this way. There are many good Japanese styles, but just like the world, mediocrity runs rampant throughout all MAs.

I will also agree with MA Fanatic when he praises the accomplishments of fighters like Sperry and Rickson Gracie. I have said before that Rickson is the reincarnation of Boddhidharma! Has everyone here seen "Choke"! That guy is for real as are most BJJ people. Mario Sperry is an outstanding martial artist too. I wouldn't want to roll with that guy!

We each walk down intersecting timelines, taking positive and negative from our experiences. Perception is based on many things, and most of us claim to have a singular truth. I've been guilty of stylistic superiority in the past, but I do know that, like reality, each person's "style" is a subjective thing. I'm glad there is a place where we can come together and give others our "take" on this sojourn. Thanks for the "vibrant" discussion, and I'll agree and disagree with you some time soon. One love...

MA fanatic
02-26-2002, 05:59 AM
Omegapoint: We must have having an internet miscommunication. I never saw you as confrontational at all. I thought we were just debating a martial arts issue. Something I do every day with different people. Usually with complete knowledge of the fact that neither is right or wrong. I actually love all arts. All have good and bad components. As much as I love BJJ, and as much as I consider Caique to be a great teacher, lets admit that BJJ has holes. Just like kickboxing isn't perfect. Oh, you asked about the man I studied Kyoshu from. He was a student of Oyata, and a close friend of John DePasquale (a JJ guy...I may be wrong on his first name). When he moved, he couldn't continue training from Oyata due to family relocation, he started training under dillman and received a 3rd dan under that organization. I don't want to mention his name because he has asked me not to ever tell Dillman that he trained with Oyata and vice versa. I guess there is some bad blood or dispute between these two men. Oh, maybe you know. I have been trying to find some footage or video information on Oyata. Is there any? Does he have any books out? I collect martial arts videos. Have numerous tapes on all martial arts and do have some footage of old masters (even footage of Soken Hohen performing Kata I found on the floor of an old abandoned dojo and had restored).

MA fanatic

omegapoint
02-27-2002, 02:18 AM
MA Fan: I remember seeing a tape he did on the internet somewhere. I have seen video of him explaining Ti at a seminar, but I no longer have access to it. I do know of one videotape that a friend of mine (who also enjoys B-Movies, mind you) recommended. I never got a chance to watch it, but he swears it's a decent representation of Ryukyuan Karate. Here's the address :http://www.yoe-inc.com/karate/karate.htm
Again, I can't vouch for its content.

You have an old video of Hohan Soken doing kata in Okinawa? That is cool! Most of the video I've seen of him showed him doing kobujutsu kata. Was it empty-hand kata? Does he give you the name of the form he executed? If it's Hakutsuru that is awesome! That cat looked like Yoda to me. He was a very solid fighter.

MA fanatic
02-27-2002, 05:37 AM
Omega: Thank you for the information. I'm not sure which kata Hohen was performing, he actually does sevaral on the tape. One, as I recall, he's doing with a sai. I'll check the tape and post. If you want to rent some martial arts videos, including rare footage, (without purchasing) try www.goldstar-video.com. You can rent tapes and return them within 3 weeks.

MA fanatic

Kempo Guy
02-27-2002, 09:49 AM
omegapoint & MA fanatic,
The Ryukyu Kempo I've been fortunate enough to experience is from the organization headed by Seiyu Oyata, which is the Ryute Renmei. He no longer uses the term Ryukyu Kempo to distinguish himself from what Dillman does, which is not the same thing.

I have also had some experience with Dillman's techniques (prior to Ryute) and was not impressed. As you mention all techniques there was done statically... which I see no value in unless you are just trying to learn the kyusho points.
What I experienced in Ryute was very different. They placed a big emphasis on footwork (and body movement), then on bridging and destroying the attacker. Many of the techniques shown to me were throws. From what I recall, we never did any of the techniques static except for when we first were shown the techniques and the principles involved. We also practiced many two-man drills/partner excercises.
However, the main emphasis of every class was on basics and kata. Then on the principles of the kata taught at the appropriate level of experience.
I have to say I'm very impressed with what they teach (not that it means anything). Plus the sparring sessions were always fun! :)

In terms of the Chinese influence of Okinawan Karate, well, I guess that's a whole another topic. :D I was under the assumption that they were not quite aware of were Ti as taught by Uehara Sensei came from...?

omegapoint,
I had the opportunity to train with some Ashihara guys when I was in Japan. Pretty cool stuff. I really like the Sabaki, and coming in from the opponents blind spot etc. And their sessions are very vigorous, much like Kyokushin. A lot of 'osu'!

MA fanatic,
Oyata Sensei has a book (or two?) out, as well as a series of videotapes on the kata taught in their system. Jim Logue Sensei also has book(s) out on Ryute, which has been highly recommended to me. I believe you can purchase these at www.ryute.com

KG

Kempo Guy
02-27-2002, 10:07 AM
I also have some footage of Hohan Soken. I believe in one of them he is performing Bassai and the other is Chinto (I think). I believe I have some other footage as well but can't remember.

I have some other videos as well of different Okinawan arts as well as a video on Fukien White Crane (Feeding Crane - I think).

If you guys want to see decent videos on Ryukyu Karate, I'd recommend the videos by Dragon Times - Tsunami Productions.

KG

MA fanatic
02-27-2002, 04:46 PM
Thanks Kempo guy. I'll check all that information out.

MA fanatic

Asia
02-28-2002, 01:36 PM
I have to agree with one of omegapoint's earlier posts that Shorin based arts are far more effective than Japanese Karate styles such as Kyokushin (if I were to choose a Japanese Karate style, I'd probably choose something like Ashihara).

Kempo Guy WHAT is Ashihara based off of? Ashihara got his foundation in Kyokushin he just tweaked his focus. But if you trained with them you already know that. I like Ashihara and like many of there principles. It is good simple kenka karate! Many look down on it because of its lack of various techniques but I think it is a good foundation to build on.

Kempo Guy
02-28-2002, 04:24 PM
Asia,
You're quite right, Ashihara is based on Kyokushin with some additional principles. I guess Kancho Ashihara took the "Point and the Circle" theory of Sosai Oyama to another level.

And yes, I agree, it (Ashihara) is a fairly simple system and as you mention it is "Kenka (fighting) Karate". Either way, I prefer it over Kyokushin. From my experience with Kyokushin (which was only about 4 years), they tend to be more direct and there's very little taisabaki taught (my opinion). So in essence it seemed to me that they met force to force. At least during sparring...

KG

fuhok-kid
03-27-2002, 12:40 PM
Hey rogue. a reply to an ealier statement you made about marines not having tanks. Please go check your facts!!! Marines DO have tanks.:mad: off the top of my head, I can think of Charlie Company, 8th Tank Battalion of the 4th Marine Division. I have a buddy in there.

rogue
03-27-2002, 03:18 PM
I was wrong, that'll teach me to listen to a trac driver! ;)

neito
04-08-2002, 05:21 PM
if i studied karate i would choose isshin ryu because i like their inline punches. are their any other karate styles that favor inline punches?