Non-Pugilistic Wing Chun

[PalmStriker]

POLE TECHNIQUE : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iECCOG6xWPU

[PalmStriker]

:)PART 2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhY-CwRv4zk

[PalmStriker]

:) PART 3 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R09uNdqX5NY

[PalmStriker]

:) Reference : http://www.tseqigongcentre.com/wingchun.html

[KPM]

Thanks! Good examples of some the major differences I was pointing out on the Tang Yik pole thread.

[PalmStriker]

:)I was curious to see if there were any good Ip Chun pole demo vids online and found them.

[PalmStriker]

:) Complete Set : Ip Chun's Knives http://www.dailykungfu.com/2011/05/awesome-wing-chun-butterfly-knives-form.html

[PalmStriker]

:) Knives Set from my own lineage : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GMB34BaCvk

[wckf92]

:) Knives Set from my own lineage : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GMB34BaCvk

Cool...Thx for posting!

[T.D.O]

:) Some online research about the disappearance of the Bagua Zhang stepping and Millhouse grinding palmstrike in the Leung Jan Wing Chun Lineage practice : https://books.google.com/books?id=c0UJzEb7ApkC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Bagua+Zhang+millstone+palm&source=bl&ots=QXi0jkMjSP&sig=8lrDHCEbu5AqCI94bmTPvNpCx6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzq4q-6qfRAhVVHGMKHQ7ABd4Q6AEIKjAD#v=onepage&q=Bagua%20Zhang%20millstone%20palm&f=false

what makes you think it was LJ?

[PalmStriker]

:) Hey, TDO ! Thanks for asking as to the Bagua Zhang Millhouse palm strike contained in the Lueng Jan Lineage. As it would have been a few years ago since I posted on this thread and have stopped doing any WingChun research over a year ago I do remember the millhouse plam strike being mentioned in literature in reference to Master Leung Jan. However, It seems like a long shot that the technique would be anything like the form technique used in the circle walking/ stepping art of Bagua Zhang. I have deleted that post as well as a few others in this thread where content access is no longer available. Please forgive the confusion.

[T.D.O]

:) Hey, TDO ! Thanks for asking as to the Bagua Zhang Millhouse palm strike contained in the Lueng Jan Lineage. As it would have been a few years ago since I posted on this thread and have stopped doing any WingChun research over a year ago I do remember the millhouse plam strike being mentioned in literature in reference to Master Leung Jan. However, It seems like a long shot that the technique would be anything like the form technique used in the circle walking/ stepping art of Bagua Zhang. I have deleted that post as well as a few others in this thread where content access is no longer available. Please forgive the confusion.

no worries.. thought you may have found it in a non LJ line.. it seems to me the circle walking is there.. just all jumbled up lol.

ive always wanted to learn the circle walking just to see ")

[PalmStriker]

:) Hey, TDO ! Nope, never heard of the use of the Millhouse palm-strike anywhere else but incorporated into the BaguaZhang style, my thoughts at the time leaned heavily towards thinking that the only thing in common between the two completely different styles was the name of the technique only. In my lineage there was the "red sand palm" fhat was taught to Yuen Kay San by one of his masters. It is questionable now-a-days if anyone practices to perfection this technique or the use of throwing darts that were signature to this lineage of WingChun.

[T.D.O]

:) Hey, TDO ! Nope, never heard of the use of the Millhouse palm-strike anywhere else but incorporated into the BaguaZhang style, my thoughts at the time leaned heavily towards thinking that the only thing in common between the two completely different styles was the name of the technique only

ah.. i should point out that i dont think they are related. just that if you put all the steps together.. or a better way of, maybe, thinking about is if you were to deconstruct the circle walking and adapt it to.. say, a boat you could end up with the footwork in wing chin, far fetched I know. haha

no doubt if I tried walking the circle that thought would be wiped out my mind lol

[T.D.O]

hadn't heard of red sand palm Before, so I had to look it up there... do you practice iron palm or the darts?

[PalmStriker]

:) No , have not developed any interest in either of those skills. Back in those days (my grandfather's generation, ( I'm 68 yrs old ) those would be the sort of skills that a Kung Fu Master in China would have kept under his hat. These days I try not to ad any new injuries that would handicap me if I needed to respond quickly to a situation (self-defense or protecting others).

[T.D.O]

These days I try not to ad any new injuries

a know the feeling lol

the darts sound interesting.. could make some money down the pub lol

i take it theres no form, just a skill?

[PalmStriker]

:) Master Yuen Kay San would demonstrate the skill by taking out birds on the wing. To demonstrate the Red Sand Palm skill he would penetrate a burlap sack of rice with a sword -hand strike and retrieve a coin that had been placed inside.

[T.D.O]

:) Master Yuen Kay San would demonstrate the skill by taking out birds on the wing. To demonstrate the Red Sand Palm skill he would penetrate a burlap sack of rice with a sword -hand strike and retrieve a coin that had been placed inside.

thats up there with the atom being able to hammer in nails with his palm lol a wonder if these people were able to write in their old age

[PalmStriker]

:) You will read about some of the things the old masters (born before 1900) would say about techniques that required extreme conditioning to pull them off, the kind of stuff you would see in the old Shaw Brothers movies. I think there was pretty much an understanding that if you did not adhere to a very strict regimen in order to develop these skills... you would end up in bad shape if you slacked off in any way. Some of these technique skills are not made public, even to this day.

[T.D.O]

I have a pdf somewhere about such methods... all of them take years to acquire... and have claims that are impossible, the writer includes a picture of his messed up hand, which he claims was because he stopped training

l seen a video.. think it may have been on yt showing a way of conditioning your palms, without a sand bag, but using your own hands, one hand hits another.. seems a bit smarter

[PalmStriker]

:) Hey, T.D.O. Interesting that you have mentioned the moderate practice of short range fist striking palm for conditioning to keep your hands ( bones,veins,nerves) in shape. Also striking the "back-fist" part of your hand in the same manner. These exercises make a nice splatting sound. I've been doing this for years with the addition of using a palm/fingers striking slap to the forearms (upper ridge) to condition against the pain/ temporary paralysis that can occur from an opponent's strike. Also, upper arm slaps to the upper arm ont the shoulder.

[T.D.O]

:) Hey, T.D.O. Interesting that you have mentioned the moderate practice of short range fist striking palm for conditioning to keep your hands ( bones,veins,nerves) in shape. Also striking the "back-fist" part of your hand in the same manner. These exercises make a nice splatting sound. I've been doing this for years with the addition of using a palm/fingers striking slap to the forearms (upper ridge) to condition against the pain/ temporary paralysis that can occur from an opponent's strike.

you know.. its something, I've never really done, I may start lol we used to slap our inner thighs in class for that reason, i kinda stuck with it for a bit.. but because i only ever done it in class, and I've not been for some time, I've forgot about it till now

[Jimbo]

Hi, PalmStriker and T.D.O:

I’m not a Wing Chun practitioner (I’m a CLF practitioner, among other things), but I thought I’d share. I have been using a similar-sounding hand conditioning method of striking my hands against each other. I actually started doing it on my own years ago. I train the palm heels, palm edges, flat palms (for power slaps), hammer fists, and hammer fists to palm heels. Then I support my weight on my first two (index and middle finger) knuckles (similar to a push-up position, but without doing push-ups) on a linoleum floor for a couple minutes, to condition the foreknuckles and wrist alignment for straight punches. Been doing this for quite some time. Even though it’s far less extreme than many methods, I still apply jow before and after, and carefully massage, stretch, and shake out my hands, and do arm swings afterwards.

For my forearms, I use an ‘Iron Arm Conditioning Hammer’ on the ulnar and radial (boney) sides, as well as on the muscle/back area of the forearms. Followed by hitting my forearms against each other (using light to moderate force). Also some slapping/palm heels to the forearm muscles. Again, I use jow for that, too. The only problem with the Iron Arm conditioning “hammer” is that it makes a loud clacking sound; not good if you share space with or around others. I don’t, so it’s not a problem for me.

These methods work well. I practice them about 4 days/week.

Two days/week, I also train grip strength. I use Heavy Grips. Not too much and not too crazy. I’m currently working on the 200-pound unit. I have others that are higher (they increase by 50 pound increments), but I’m not in a hurry to get there, and don’t want to strain or injure my hands, or develop tendinitis. I warm up for that by squeezing tennis balls and even squeezing my hands together as hard as possible for 30-second sets. You don’t want to jump into using the Heavy Grip units without warming your hands up first, and only do low reps.

Then a couple days a week I strike a BOB dummy.

My training isn’t nearly as much as what I did in younger years, but at 57, I would rather be able to do some training than none at all. Of course, the above isn’t all of what I do, only my own hand/forearm conditioning methods.

[PalmStriker]

:) Hey, Jimbo ! I would say you are right up there at 57 doing the workout regimen you detailed. Yeah, I like hammer fist too and will hit that into the mitt. Sounds like you could keep going like that for another ten years, easily given good health. As you get older you will loose strength gradually, as well as endurance, hut speed will always be on your side from muscle memory alone. The body conditioning stuff makes sense as your nerves and exterior skin surface absorb the contact given that is used for preventative therapy. I don't do any additional lifting as I am still working a good bit physically throughout the week at age 68. Gripping and grasping weights also good to hear about.

[T.D.O]

for grip training.. I hang from a pull up bar, gets a few more body parts done at the same time.. finger tip push ups (against a wall, not mad enough to go to the floor yet) to help balance things out a bit, the bar for second, but every now and again every day, helps stretch vertebra and intercostal alike as well.. I'm not a fan of grippers, mines were pretty weak, but It felt like reps gave me more fatigue than hanging does, though it didn't help that I was a cable puller at the time lol

finger tip push ups are 2 sets low reps.. like 3-5 depending on how cold my hands are, but really slow trying to squeeze every bit of gain out of an easy exercise

a lot of arm swinging qi gong, Jam Jong with intention in the palms and fingers, which I've only recently got back into, so it's not long before fatigue sets in :eek:

[Jimbo]

:) Hey, Jimbo ! I would say you are right up there at 57 doing the workout regimen you detailed. Yeah, I like hammer fist too and will hit that into the mitt. Sounds like you could keep going like that for another ten years, easily given good health. As you get older you will loose strength gradually, as well as endurance, hut speed will always be on your side from muscle memory alone. The body conditioning stuff makes sense as your nerves and exterior skin surface absorb the contact given that is used for preventative therapy. I don't do any additional lifting as I am still working a good bit physically throughout the week at age 68. Gripping and grasping weights also good to hear about.

For the most part, I still have my hand speed and reaction timing, and my strikes haven’t lost any power, I just don’t train as much as before, and now I listen to my body and don’t take it for granted anymore. Motivation becomes more of a challenge, especially when training around an old injury. My cardio is nowhere near what it was. I used to incorporate lots of running (distance and wind sprints), but for many years now I just walk instead. I’ve always walked a lot, anyway. Not as stressful on the body, and I’m not training for any competitions.

I used to work with weights, too, but in 2018 I had an operation to fix a hernia that reopened again after about 50+ years. If this repair lasts as long as the original did, I’m set for life as far as hernia repairs go. But I never got back into using weights again after recovering from the surgery. Part of my grip routine in the past was training fu jow (tiger claw) by holding good-sized weighted jars by the lip of the jar. These jars were similar to the type used by many Okinawa karate practitioners.

[Jimbo]

for grip training.. I hang from a pull up bar, gets a few more body parts done at the same time.. finger tip push ups (against a wall, not mad enough to go to the floor yet) to help balance things out a bit, the bar for second, but every now and again every day, helps stretch vertebra and intercostal alike as well.. I'm not a fan of grippers, mines were pretty weak, but It felt like reps gave me more fatigue than hanging does, though it didn't help that I was a cable puller at the time lol

finger tip push ups are 2 sets low reps.. like 3-5 depending on how cold my hands are, but really slow trying to squeeze every bit of gain out of an easy exercise

a lot of arm swinging qi gong, Jam Jong with intention in the palms and fingers, which I've only recently got back into, so it's not long before fatigue sets in :eek:

Hanging from a pull-up bar, or doing pull-ups, is a great way to work grip strength and other things. I haven’t done those in years, because I have no access to a pull-up bar.

The type of grippers I use are Heavy Grips. They’re totally different from the cheap, weak gripping devices you’ll find in sporting goods stores. These are for hardcore grip development. You do not want to use high reps with them, and you don’t want to train with them more than two or three times/week. They are not designed for high reps. If you can easily squeeze the handles together ten times, you’re ready to move up to the next tension level. I have Heavy Grips for up to 350 lbs of pressure, but am still working on the 200 lbs one (which isn’t considered too high up for hardcore grip enthusiasts, but is still quite hard for the average man). I won’t even touch the 250 lbs one (the next one up). Many years ago, when I started using the Heavy Grips (at the beginner level), I tried too much too soon and got tendinitis in the palms of my hands. It took about a year or more before I dared try the Heavy Grip again. I learned that less really is more. These grippers also give your fingers calluses; they are not comfortable to use when you first start using them; they have a rough, knurled texture. I work as a professional massage therapist (or I did, before Covid), which in itself also strengthens your hands and body, and training with the Heavy Grips made a noticeable difference for me.

I used to incorporate fingertip pushups on the floor, especially with cat stretch-style pushups, but no longer do that. There are several things I used to do that I simply dropped as I’ve gotten older and my motivations have changed. It’s good to start on a wall like you are doing. Looks like you have a good routine going there.

[T.D.O]

[\QUOTE]I work as a professional massage therapist (or I did, before Covid), which in itself also strengthens your hands.[/QUOTE]

I bet.. my hands get sore just doing my own shoulders lol

my sifu was a tui na practitioner, he showed me how strong his fingers were by getting me to palm strike them.. think I felt it more than he did

[PalmStriker]

:) Today I was browsing YouTube and ended up watching a movie in Mandarin only/no English subtitles section of net listings (vids) and noticed a documentary that showed Master Ip Man as the cover scene (didn't see the picture in the actual video) standing sideways (picture taken from waist up) with his right arm outstretched in "tan sau" wing arm form. Thing is, he had four thick metal rings along his forearm as a weight source, rings with just enough circumference to get your hand through. Sensitivity training also comes to mind. The picture showed Master Ip in his later age.... so I will assume the picture of him was taken in Hong Kong. The backdrop is just a blank white wall and the picture was taken while he was posing/showing this training technique. Considering the fact that I don't read or speak the language and would not be able to locate this image again once I moved on from the Google page, I took a close-up of the picture for my own references but am not at liberty to show this. (publishing laws). * Reminds me of something you would expect to see more likely with Hung Gar practitioners / training. Anyone else know of this use of rings in the Ip Man Lineage? Not talking about the large and smaller rattan and metal 2-arm work-out rings that are somewhat common with a few WingChun lineages. Technically, it would explain why he was known in Hong Kong as "The Old Man with the Heavy Punch".

[PalmStriker]

:) Here is an entry in the "The Rattan Ring" thread from the year 2000. Post #12:
Sihing73
Guest
Hi Kymus,

I beleive that Rene Ritchie has a book out on Yuen Kay San Wing Chun and describes some methods for utilizing the Rattan Ring.

Keep in mind that when one mentions Ring Training there are several variations. There are the brass rings which are designed to slip over your wrist and provide tension/weight while performing hand movements. Also there are ones that are slightly larger designed for gripping training. And of course the ones in Wing Chun which usually have an inside diameter of 12-14". Never really got to play with those as my system does not seem to incorporate them. maybe I can get Rene to show how to use them if we ever meet in person. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[T.D.O]

I've seen the picture of ip man you refer to, some one posted it on here before, think if you do a Google picture search for "ip man" it appears... looks to me like it was about the same time he got all the pictures and videos of the forms recorded.

never known my own lineage (samuel kwok) to use them, seems like one of those things he would of done a book about if he did have them lol

[T.D.O]

:) Master Yuen Kay San would demonstrate the skill by taking out birds on the wing.

10888

I read a book on throwing weapons recently, the grip for the Chinese throwing dart was interesting, like the one above ( I think that's a Japanese version of it. )

[PalmStriker]

:) Thanks for posting the picture, T.D.O. The grip makes perfect sense for using a throwing dart like that. There are many different types of darts, that one would be perfect for short range overhead extended arm throw. Wouldn't mind having a dozen of those for my vest. :D I can see that the dart is made out of bronze instead of brass or steel, an old one (antiquer).

[T.D.O]

:) Thanks for posting the picture, T.D.O. The grip makes perfect sense for using a throwing dart like that. There are many different types of darts, that one would be perfect for short range overhead extended arm throw. Wouldn't mind having a dozen of those for my vest. :D I can see that the dart is made out of bronze instead of brass or steel, an old one (antiquer).

That's one I found online, I'll see if I can upload the one from the book, the dart is completely different from that, though the grip is the same.

[T.D.O]

That's one I found online, I'll see if I can upload the one from the book, the dart is completely different from that, though the grip is the same.

10889

10890

10891

[PalmStriker]

:) Just so everyone knows, the blade point configured in post picture above was outlawed by the Geneva Convention back around WW1 due to the fact that bayonet wounds from tri or quad points made wounds that would never heal. Configured blade points used by deer/game bow hunters is probably one of the few exceptions.
:D Here is one of my favorite Kung Fu movies that has a dart-throwing Lady Master in the mix. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWcOW4tzo2I

[T.D.O]

:) Just so everyone knows, the blade point configured in post picture above was outlawed by the Geneva Convention back around WW1 due to the fact that bayonet wounds from tri or quad points made wounds that would never heal.

And I don't think anybody should be throwing any type of weapon at people anyway :eek:

[PalmStriker]

:D Not so much in this day and age. Bet there were a few bandits with 'em sticking in their backs running off into the sunset in the 'Old Days', though.

[T.D.O]

:D Not so much in this day and age. Bet there were a few bandits with 'em sticking in their backs running off into the sunset in the 'Old Days', though.

I would of aimed for the legs, harder to run away and probably less armour :D

[T.D.O]

what makes you think it was LJ?

https://www.martialtalk.com/threads/ba-gua-and-wing-chun.123510/

Interesting thread to do with wing chun and ba gua (theory)

[YinOrYan]

https://www.martialtalk.com/threads/ba-gua-and-wing-chun.123510/

Interesting thread to do with wing chun and ba gua (theory)

I see some overlap, but being from a large metropolis, all these styles tend to blend together in one's mind. It could be there's only a finite number of moves that the overlap was not temporally based. BTW, since I had the scanner out, check out this picture of IP Man with his big TV behind him. Now I'm really wondering what influence TV had on his kung fu, haha

[T.D.O]

theres only so many ways to move, so I see your point, but it did have to come from somewhere and it's fun to compare :D

IP man was only little, so it might not be that big lol