Traditional Wushu vs Cinematic Wushu

[SPJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3TthvpPhpQ

Interview with He Jing Han (Ba Gua Quan)

Traditional Wushu is about passing from one generation to the next.

Movie is about display or show.

Traditional training is about basic practice and boring. They may not be good to see or show.

etc.

:cool:

[wolfen]

Something on the same subject in English from Adam Hsu

Eight video Playlist 1 hr 26 min total
Sword Polisher's Interview: Adam Hsu on the True Art of Kung Fu
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxRh9TOSaU6RZLLjzTR-e-KvXhPyCHItP

Sword Polisher's Interview: Adam Hsu on the True Art of Kung Fu (1/8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WztghXVn6NI

Chinese family traditions are different from Western Family traditions.
Socialist and Leftist governments often wage war on the family and family structures and family businesses. this is particularity true in North America today.
They also wage war on the individual's natural mind in pubic education and the workplace.
This affects what kind of raw material /recruits are available to the marital arts, what interest there is in the martial arts and what kind of martial arts are actually practiced.

[Jimbo]

SPJ:

Of course, cinematic CMA/wushu is for entertainment, not for educational purposes. The same as action movies with lots of gunfights; they are to entertain audiences and are not tutorials on real-life shooting scenarios. The same with cinematic representations of car chases, paranormal experiences, romances, etc., etc. Even movies that appear more realistic than others are still 'fake'. If they were presented in movies as they happen in real life, they would be boring, too.

wolfen:

As far as some cultures' people being more compatible for CMA training: In Taiwan, the most popular and widely-practiced MA was TKD, especially among kids. Far more popular than CMA. Part of the reason is that CMA have a poor reputation among many people there as being less organized and being associated with gangsters. In some instances those stereotypes were true. The nice white uniforms, belt grading systems, board breaking, easy-to-understand applications, spectacular kicks, connections to a recognized world-wide association (and now the Olympics), and more frequent tournaments, lack of 'secrecy' and generally nicer facilities in TKD schools, make TKD more desirable to a high number of people in Taiwan. I also remember hearing back in the 1970s that TKD was the most popular MA in Hong Kong as well.

I'm not saying that TKD is better than CMA. If I believed that, I would have chosen that over CMA. My point is that even many people who grow up and live in the Chinese culture apparently do not prefer CMA, whether or not we may consider that justified or not.

There are individuals born in the West who can love CMA and gain as deep an understanding as any high-level practitioner from China, Taiwan or anywhere else. It's the individual, and their inherent dedication to and innate compatibility and intelligence regarding whichever CMA they train that really matters.

[SPJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjifkhhvwyk

Discussion of all aspects of Wushu in modern media rich society.

Traditional Wushu requires us for long term practice to appreciate the nuclei of values, thoughts, etc.

:cool:

[GeneChing]

Interview with He Jing Han (Ba Gua Quan)



He Jing-Han was our NOV+DEC 2004 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=543) cover master.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/Cov2004_6.jpg

[wolfen]

SPJ:

wolfen:

As far as some cultures' people being more compatible for CMA training: In Taiwan, the most popular and widely-practiced MA was TKD, especially among kids. Far more popular than CMA. Part of the reason is that CMA have a poor reputation among many people there as being less organized and being associated with gangsters. In some instances those stereotypes were true. The nice white uniforms, belt grading systems, board breaking, easy-to-understand applications, spectacular kicks, connections to a recognized world-wide association (and now the Olympics), and more frequent tournaments, lack of 'secrecy' and generally nicer facilities in TKD schools, make TKD more desirable to a high number of people in Taiwan. I also remember hearing back in the 1970s that TKD was the most popular MA in Hong Kong as well.

I'm not saying that TKD is better than CMA. If I believed that, I would have chosen that over CMA. My point is that even many people who grow up and live in the Chinese culture apparently do not prefer CMA, whether or not we may consider that justified or not.

There are individuals born in the West who can love CMA and gain as deep an understanding as any high-level practitioner from China, Taiwan or anywhere else. It's the individual, and their inherent dedication to and innate compatibility and intelligence regarding whichever CMA they train that really matters.
I am familiar with all that, I lived in Taiwan for a number of years. I didn't compare Taiwan to America, or TKD to CMA I contrasted Socialism to Art. I am accounting for the trends both East and West.. Though the title is not comprehensive enough, it should be something like Government versus Art, though socialism the most annoying dog here. That dog has brought a cloud of cultural Marxism that has descended on the West with it 's corresponding behaviour control methods.

And what makes an individual an "individual"? Qualities such as creativity, resilience, questioning, challenging, self-actualization self-reliance, self-development, spiritual questing etc are Anti-State
To be individual is to somehow have escaped state indoctrination in public education. For an example of the depth of this look at the State sponsored Pharma Industry and the damage that has done to the population. So I was talking about the destructiveness governments have on families, family values and the individual and how the affects the practice of kungfu.

[wolfen]

And you thought I was exaggerating....No more mothers and fathers

Saying 'Shifu' is illegal and PC incorrect.
.. no family values , no family kung fu.

News stories from two provinces in Canada

Wynne Liberals move to erase words "mother" and "father" from Ontario laws


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpJg0BbnrPc




Ontario MPPs approve motion to remove words mother, father from government forms (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-mpps-approve-motion-to-remove-words-mother-father-from-government-forms-1.3241962)
Forms should 'reflect diverse nature' of families, MPP Glenn Thibeault says
Ontario lawmakers have approved a motion to remove the words 'mother' and 'father' from all government forms to "reflect the diverse nature" of families in the province.


Glenn Thibeault


... It's official: My motion has passed unanimously in the House - no opposition from any member of legislature!


10074

Alberta, Canada's Progressive New Government Bans the Words "Mother" and "Father" in Schools (http://iwf.org/blog/2799131/Alberta,-Canada's-Progressive-New-Government-Bans-the-Words-%22Mother%22-and-%22Father%22-in-Schools)



It used to be: "Heather has two mommies."

Now, it's: "Heather has two non-gendered and inclusive caregivers."

That's the language the New Democratic Party government in Alberta, Canada, is telling teachers and school administrators to use when adressing the adults with whom students are living. Out: "mother" and "father." In: "parent," "caregiver," "partner," whatever.

And God help you if refer to one of the little rascals as "him" or "her."

Here's the pertinent language from the rainbow-adorned "Guidelines for Best Practices" that the highminded-progressive NDP government issued last week:

School forms, websites, letters, and other communications use non-gendered and inclusive language (e.g., parents/guardians, caregivers, families, partners, “student” or “their” instead of Mr., Ms., Mrs., mother, father, him, her, etc.)."

The purpose of the guidelines, according to the text, is to create "learning communities" that "respect diverse sexual orientations, gender identies, and gender expressions."
This is cultural Marxism, the destruction of the family and individuality by the State.

[David Jamieson]

And you thought I was exaggerating....No more mothers and fathers

Saying 'Shifu' is illegal and PC incorrect.
.. no family values , no family kung fu.

News stories from two provinces in Canada

Wynne Liberals move to erase words "mother" and "father" from Ontario laws


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpJg0BbnrPc






10074

Alberta, Canada's Progressive New Government Bans the Words "Mother" and "Father" in Schools (http://iwf.org/blog/2799131/Alberta,-Canada's-Progressive-New-Government-Bans-the-Words-%22Mother%22-and-%22Father%22-in-Schools)



This is cultural Marxism, the destruction of the family and individuality by the State.

Lol, ^ This is simplistic alarmist propaganda. Also, it was a motion towards inclusiveness and recognition of the change in family structure that is more apparent every day.

The so called nuclear family isn't really the only thing there is anymore. There's lots of variation on what constitutes families now and the motion towards inclusive language cuts off at the pass any attempts to demoralize or oppress those who do not fit into a rigid framework that is only subscribed to by an ever smaller portion of the population.

[Jimbo]

CMA has had a LONG history of practice and development under repressive rule, yet a high number of traditional CMA are still here today. The repressive regimes failed to exterminate it. And I've never heard of an instance where a CMA teacher couldn't be referred to as Shifu or Sifu, unless that teacher preferred the title 'Laoshi', and only allowed inner-door disciples to call him Shifu/Sifu.

Back to SPJ's original question, much (most) of the practices common to traditional CMA would not be entertaining to watch in a movie. Because it is simple repetition and refinement. The benefits accrue over time, but are nothing much to watch. Maybe that's one of the "secrets" of kung fu, which is really no secret at all.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I always found enjoyment when seeing training sequences in the movies. I think it had to do with the emphasis on the basics at the first kung fu school I went to. It was pretty much understood that one's basics had to be solid. The school wasn't perfect but, it made it's point.

There is also the coefficient of time. How much of that kind of training do you put into 95 minutes? The Chinese TV series are more appropriate for that kind of display.

mickey

[Jimbo]

From the cinematic side...

IMO, the character Chi Kuan-Chun portrayed in the 1974 movie Shaolin Martial Arts is one of the better examples of the sheer drudgery and repetition that is characteristic in developing many kung/gong. In the movie, he travels to a teacher to learn just one skill: a one-inch fingertip thrust. Yes, it is fanciful and fictitious, but few cinematic portrayals of KF training show such single-minded concentration on one single, simple movement. Which is why Fu Sheng's scenes of practicing the Fu Hok Seung Ying form (also done in a cinematic fashion, or course) interspersed with Chi Kuan-Chun's scenes contrast effectively to break up the monotony. This clip shows a portion of their training sequences.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8TPMU-u8tg&sns=em

[wolfen]

CMA has had a LONG history of practice and development under repressive rule, yet a high number of traditional CMA are still here today. The repressive regimes failed to exterminate it.
...
And I've never heard of an instance where a CMA teacher couldn't be referred to as Shifu or Sifu, unless that teacher preferred the title 'Laoshi', and only allowed inner-door disciples to call him Shifu/Sifu.
.
I have drawn neither of these conclusions that you are arguing against. I don't know where you got them from or why you make these conclusions and then argue against them'
...
The title of my previous post was Trends , not Apocalyptic. I was attempting to explain the trends towards reduction of interest in TCMA over time and over certain time periods and in the now. One is of course how modern life draws humans to more simplified less complex and even superficial activities. I mentioned how there are differences in cultural families such as the Chinese family bonds are traditionally stronger that the American Style and the Muslim Chinese (Hui) family bonds were the strongest . In the latter case there is nothing like a pre-existing open-to-anyone contract kill order in the Koran for apostasy to keep a family together lol.
...
So those are factors. Modern life has diminished the family structure. But I said specifically in North America, to add to this weakening, leftist-progressive governments have deliberately set out to kill family business and farms such as the NDP in Alberta (war on farms)and the Bureau of Land Management in the USA (war on ranchers) (to merely scratch the surface) And yep, that's another bad rap for the BLM acronym - lol. This of course destroys structures that bind families together throws them out in the great urban-alienation matrix.

10098

So then you look at how kung fu will continue in family structures or clubs or government run organizations. People who are socialized with Mommy and Daddy being the State are less likely to be attracted to Traditional Family type TCMA, they just don't hold the family values for that. They are more likely to practice in commercial clubs. However on the other side, in what I believe to be a coming heavy repression in North America they maybe driven to such practices in order to go underground as the obvious social clubs may become persecuted in the near future by the Government who will begin to consider them para-military organizations.
So that is all --> trends, not apocalypse.
..
As for the second item, this is nothing so trivial as choice of language or looking up something the dictionary. "Mommy" and "Daddy" for undamaged natural human beings are emotional terms of bonding not some abstract words in the dictionary. Cultural Marxism is a tool meant to destroy the relationships between human beings. To censor and traumatize children , to change mommy and daddy to caregiver # 1 &2 etc is to sterilize or lobotomize them emotionally. Cultural Marxism is a deliberate program to destroy the traditional social order at the psychological level, to induce mental illness, emotional illness, in the population or to do in this case what I call Induced Identity Dysfunction. It is done for the purpose of control.
...

10099

What this means for kungfu is that the raw material for intake ,the recruits are more likely to be damaged.
Kungfu TCMA is holistic and integrative , more so than the simplified MA like Taekwondo, MMA and Karate (at least the popular styes). However, like in my signature, one of the core ideas of TCMA is transformation. The carp continuously tries to breach the Dragon Gate and those that do become Dragons.
This is a very difficult process even for the healthy normal person.

In the induced mental illness, induced through negative socialization, the person's energies and emotions are working against themselves, In those induced dysfunctions m the person internalizes the outward repression against themselves This is seriously destructive towards any integration of Mind-Body-Spirit/Emotion. Transformation takes total commitment and TCMA starts with a healthy person and makes them into a superhuman. .
Everything inside has to be flushed out, the emotional pipes have to be flushed. Energies and emotions have to be brought up vigorously from the core. Mind body and emotion have to work together and emotional spirit drives the machine. The apparent stillness of suppression is not vitality and prevents a person from transforming.
Kungfu would have to be curative towards this first before going to work on it's regular path, Well, TCMA can be played at different levels but the core is transformation. There is what I think Adam Hsu calls his 100 day transformation and what he calls going "Up Mountain" (上山), which is to embark on immersive training to such intensity that a person transforms over a specific period of time.
..
So, we have the carp that are so fearful they cannot say if they are boys or girls, they have been traumatized by simple words like "mommy" and "daddy" and emotionally lobotomized to not knowing the difference between a rock and another carp. So much fewer of them will be inclined to try to jump the Dragon Gate, though it would do them a lot of good, and much fewer of them will make the transformation. That is not the depth of it, the depth is much more detail, much more extensive but I just put it in simple entertaining terms.
..
That's my idea. Under normal circumstance even the TCMA has to burn out the normal everyday habitual tensions of inhibiting socialization but the current onslaught to dehumanize human beings is no small thing and it has an effect on people in attempting success in the physical arts.

To continue any discussion of Cultural Marxism, I created a topic in the OT Forum
Link ===> http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69827-The-White-Boned-Terror-comes-to-North-America

[wolfen]

Lol, ^ This is simplistic alarmist propaganda.

Also, it was a motion towards inclusiveness and recognition of the change in family structure that is more apparent every day.
..
The so called nuclear family isn't really the only thing there is anymore. There's lots of variation on what constitutes families now and the motion towards inclusive language cuts off at the pass any attempts to demoralize or oppress those who do not fit into a rigid framework that is only subscribed to by an ever smaller portion of the population.


I put my complete response to you in the OT Forum

link ===> http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69827-The-White-Boned-Terror-comes-to-North-America

10100

[Jimbo]

wolfen:

Believe it or not, you're not the only person who is aware of these and similar trends, or who can think for themselves. But not everybody posts about it in every other thread. I get it; it's something you want to get out there and make more people aware of. But coming across as defensive or even superior is not the most productive way to get your point across.

[bawang]

To regret the present and remember a past golden age is to step on the path to extinction. True manhood, true manliness is to survive and thrive in any environment. Ultimately all modern kungfu is about recovering lost or deferred masculinity.

[Kellen Bassette]

To regret the present and remember a past golden age is to step on the path to extinction. True manhood, true manliness is to survive and thrive in any environment.

This is true.



Ultimately all modern kungfu is about recovering lost or deferred masculinity.

This is a skewed perspective you arrived at because that quality was lacking in your upbringing.

[bawang]

This is true.



This is a skewed perspective you arrived at because that quality was lacking in your upbringing.

just look at the huge number of nerds and generally effete men getting into kung fu over the decades and the general theme of traditional folk stories

this is art of violence, it is inherently manly

[Kellen Bassette]

this is art of violence, it is inherently manly

Absolutely. It is inherent to real training.

Modern Kung Fu isn't about reclaiming that, though. There are largely two factions in the modern world, those trying to figure out what their place is and how to market kung fu; and those interested in fighting who are concerned with applying kung fu.

In spite of certain political factions, masculinity has always been prized in the west. Nobody is worried about reclaiming masculinity because we never suffered from a stigma of being effeminate. If you train like a warrior you will attract warrior archetype. If you train like a man, like minded brotherhood will follow.

[SevenStar]

In spite of certain political factions, masculinity has always been prized in the west. Nobody is worried about reclaiming masculinity because we never suffered from a stigma of being effeminate. If you train like a warrior you will attract warrior archetype. If you train like a man, like minded brotherhood will follow.

I'm with bawang on that one. if you look at the guys training at the muay thai gym I attend and compare them with those where I train kung fu, the difference is obvious. That's not to say there is no masculinity in kung fu, but sport fighting tends to draw it more, at least in my experience. If that was the experience of most, you would think kung fu would be as popular as MMA. As I've said before, if fighting was seen more - san da, shuai chiao, etc. then more masculinity would be attracted to it. Guys who want to fight are instantly turned away because they are under the impression that it's all forms, smoke and flowery techniques - things that attract the "nerd" group.

[Jimbo]

I'm with bawang on that one. if you look at the guys training at the muay thai gym I attend and compare them with those where I train kung fu, the difference is obvious. That's not to say there is no masculinity in kung fu, but sport fighting tends to draw it more, at least in my experience. If that was the experience of most, you would think kung fu would be as popular as MMA. As I've said before, if fighting was seen more - san da, shuai chiao, etc. then more masculinity would be attracted to it. Guys who want to fight are instantly turned away because they are under the impression that it's all forms, smoke and flowery techniques - things that attract the "nerd" group.

I agree with this. Of course, a competitive fighting environment attracts more testosterone-fueled types, usually a younger crowd. It is something that a lot of people (males especially) need to experience and get out of their systems while still young. It is a natural stage of life for (many/most) males. If it's suppressed, it can come out in unproductive ways.

Even if KF were taught in an MMA-style environment, I still believe that MMA as it's seen today would still outstrip KF in popularity because it's streamlined and the standard methods (MT, BJJ, boxing and wrestling) are already in place, for obvious reasons. Even when somebody comes in, fights differently and is successful, that "new" art is never sought out for standard MMA. Even if a KF guy went in and won using obvious KF techniques, he would be seen as an aberration at best. He is usually also viewed as "just lucky" or boring, especially if he doesn't stand and trade like rock 'em sock 'em robots. Audiences generally don't tend to like or accept unconventional things, even if they work well enough. And the KF crowd would probably be criticizing that he really wasn't using KF or was doing it all wrong. That type of unproductive, passive-aggressive backstabbing among CMAists is another common issue that holds KF/CMA back.

[boxerbilly]

I agree with this. Of course, a competitive fighting environment attracts more testosterone-fueled types, usually a younger crowd. It is something that a lot of people (males especially) need to experience and get out of their systems while still young. It is a natural stage of life for (many/most) males. If it's suppressed, it can come out in unproductive ways.

Even if KF were taught in an MMA-style environment, I still believe that MMA as it's seen today would still outstrip KF in popularity because it's streamlined and the standard methods (MT, BJJ, boxing and wrestling) are already in place, for obvious reasons. Even when somebody comes in, fights differently and is successful, that "new" art is never sought out for standard MMA. Even if a KF guy went in and won using obvious KF techniques, he would be seen as an aberration at best. He is usually also viewed as "just lucky" or boring, especially if he doesn't stand and trade like rock 'em sock 'em robots. Audiences generally don't tend to like or accept unconventional things, even if they work well enough. And the KF crowd would probably be criticizing that he really wasn't using KF or was doing it all wrong. That type of passive-aggressive backstabbing is anther issue in KF/CMA.

At best they would steal his winning technique but how many took Hackneys tiger claw , leopards palm depending on source ? I off hand cant think of any. But they all use his upswing when someone is down. Why not the overhand ? Too easy to defend against now, they'll just rush in and bring you down. But the upswing gets decent power and it digs real well for being what many would consider an arm punch. For those that use a name I am unfamiliar with, that's the blow Hackney busted his hand on slamming it into that basketball sized head of Yarborough .

I always wondered where BJJ would be if Royce drew Yarborough . There are those that say the draws were fixed. Anyway, Kenpo went into the early days of UFC and did well.

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf7UShVrh5c

Looks like he hammer fisted a lot too...... Now I bet no one gives Keith credit because its in every art but he was in the first. That long arm swing is the upswing. I prefer to use it with a bend in the arm and I spread the impact out Keith used just the middle knuckle as instructed. Bad move. Probably great to the body with one knuckle.

[SevenStar]

I always wondered where BJJ would be if Royce drew Yarborough . There are those that say the draws were fixed. Anyway, Kenpo went into the early days of UFC and did well.

he was 2 - 2. But he was there. I liked hackney.

[boxerbilly]

Like I said he did okay. Wonder how others would have done out the gate against that big boy ? This was all so freaking new and exciting. All these different styles literally beating the crap out of one another. We all stood in shock and awe. No one would have predicted Royce. We knew nothing about it.
No one believe they could take that mountain of a man. Everyones idea was kick his legs. His legs are like oak trees and can you imagine trying to chock him out ? I wonder if you run out of air first if he rolls onto you ? Just a guy that f---cks up all ideas but Keith just cracked him in the head just like McSweeney taught. McSweeney always said, anyone 180 up can knock out anyone regardless the size with these blows. Looks like McSweeney sort of knew what he was talking about.

Anyway, the upswing and leopards paw likely were learned by Jimmy Wing Woo. Keith is off John McSweeneys line. Johns Kenpo for fighting is different than the Kenpo Parker taught. John learned directly from Woo too. But he taught parkers Kenpo as he learned it.

Okay technically he did not ko him as an astute observer may notice but I think he got a split second ko on the first strike but Yarborough revovered. And look at the guy just take those hammers to the back of the neck. I suggest people run from anyone that size. Up top you though if you need to feel like your living up to your standards of manhood depending on what country you hail from. Me, Im F---king running !

The first strike is not in that clip.

[Jimbo]

Sorry if this takes the thread way OT, but...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWxlZ52O0rI&sns=em

The announcer refers to Yarborough as a "behammoth".

[SevenStar]

At best they would steal his winning technique but how many took Hackneys tiger claw , leopards palm depending on source ? I off hand cant think of any. But they all use his upswing when someone is down. Why not the overhand ? Too easy to defend against now, they'll just rush in and bring you down. But the upswing gets decent power and it digs real well for being what many would consider an arm punch. For those that use a name I am unfamiliar with, that's the blow Hackney busted his hand on slamming it into that basketball sized head of Yarborough .



in terms of the claw itself, it's illegal. you can palm strike, which bas rutten made popular before hackney, but the clawing is illegal. There is a member of this forum who fought in the UFC back then. he had two matches, won one, lost the other, but in the one he won, he used a tiger claw also. there are things illegal now that were "legal" then. I put that in quotes because there were things which you could get away with, but would get you a fine, for example, the eye gouge. Yuki nakai is blind in one eye because Gerard gordeau gouged him. gordeau still lost the fight, but nakai permanently lost his eye.

the overhand was made popular by chuck lidell. that was his KO punch.

[boxerbilly]

Sorry if this takes the thread way OT, but...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWxlZ52O0rI&sns=em

The announcer refers to Yarborough as a "behammoth".

Hackney was 15 lbs heavier than the MMA guy .

But it does seem once Yarborough is down you can do what you like because eit seems it takes 600lbs of man a LONG time to get back up. LOL. Still, Im running.

Okay back to movie kung fu vs the real deal.

[SevenStar]

Sorry if this takes the thread way OT, but...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWxlZ52O0rI&sns=em

The announcer refers to Yarborough as a "behammoth".


yeah, he was a big boy. he passed away a year or so ago from a heart attack.

[boxerbilly]

in terms of the claw itself, it's illegal. you can palm strike, which bas rutten made popular before hackney, but the clawing is illegal. There is a member of this forum who fought in the UFC back then. he had two matches, won one, lost the other, but in the one he won, he used a tiger claw also. there are things illegal now that were "legal" then. I put that in quotes because there were things which you could get away with, but would get you a fine, for example, the eye gouge. Yuki nakai is blind in one eye because Gerard gordeau gouged him. gordeau still lost the fight, but nakai permanently lost his eye.

the overhand was made popular by chuck lidell. that was his KO punch.

It actually is called a leopards palm strike in McSweeney Kenpo. It is not a claw at all. Heel of hand strike. But ive seen Hackneys strike called a TS over the years more than not .

I believe Jon Hess was the first UFC guy to openly eye gouge. There was no rules against it. He was boo'd hard. He was trained by Lew Hicks and more or less that was San Soo . The guy looked horrible.

Hackney pounded Joe Son's nuts which was legal at that time. He also chocked him out with a McSweeney move . I forget the name. Basically the thumb and index and middle fingers grabbing the adams apple and squeeze. Keith brought all those kung fu goodies into the care.

[Jimbo]

I wish Hackney had punched Joe Son's nuts even harder. Son was a rapist scumbag.

[boxerbilly]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=64d_1353096594&comments=1

I think Hicks trained Hess like 1-3 months for this fight. Meaning he had never learned anything prior. He also quit smoking like a month before the bout.

Lew Hicks was a Navy Seal that learned SCARS from Peterson who learned San Soo from Bill Hulsey who learned it from Jimmy H. Woo and Frank Woolsey.

If anyone wants to see the SAFTA tape Hicks made send me a pm. I have it.

[SevenStar]

I believe Jon Hess was the first UFC guy to openly eye gouge. There was no rules against it. He was boo'd hard. He was trained by Lew Hicks and more or less that was San Soo . The guy looked horrible.



they actually used it in the same month. Hess was fined for the gouge. it was "legal" as I stated. you were fined for doing it.

[boxerbilly]

they actually used it in the same month. Hess was fined for the gouge. it was "legal" as I stated. you were fined for doing it.

Ah.... that's right you got fined for it, that was it. I don't recall the other fighter or fight but LOL same month.

I just wiki Hess and they are saying he was a BB in San Soo the time of this fight and he took the test with Hicks ? I recall them saying way back when he was a student of Hicks and only trained a month or 3 . But looks like he was more or less highly skilled in San Soo. So this is what beautiful San Soo looks like when it is for real !

Just like lovely Kenpo when done for real is just hammer, hammer, hammer upswing, upswing, upswing. Rinse and repeat.

[SevenStar]

Ah.... that's right you got fined for it, that was it. I don't recall the other fighter or fight but LOL same month.

gordeau was a kyokushin and savatte guy. he made a decent name for himself from fighting. he was only 2-2 in mma, but he actually competed in k-1, too.. I think he trains some k-1 guys now.

[boxerbilly]

gordeau was a kyokushin and savatte guy. he made a decent name for himself from fighting. he was only 2-2 in mma, but he actually competed in k-1, too.. I think he trains some k-1 guys now.


He was who I most wanted to see fight. Savate. I was still heavily into TKD at the time. Kicking.

When you wrote savate I recalled who Gordeau was. I did not know he took someones eyes. He was serious as a heart attack as were all those early guys.

[Jimbo]

Here is an example of cinematic MA, with KF movie actor Chan Wai-Man. Admittedly, his MA background was probably more karate and boxing/kickboxing than KF, and also had triad involvement, but he is still a great example:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGvR9KuaQSQ&sns=em

*Continued next post...

[Jimbo]

...Continued from previous post...

And here is an example of Chan Wai-Man in real professional kickboxing matches in 1982 (note: the title put on the video is misleading). Chan is the one who fights in the long pants (white pants in the first fight, black in the second):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rodqo2WYDeQ&sns=em

He obviously knew the difference between cinematic fighting and real fighting. Aside from maybe these two kickboxing matches in his 30s, he likely had many street fights in his past as well.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm with bawang on that one. if you look at the guys training at the muay thai gym I attend and compare them with those where I train kung fu, the difference is obvious. That's not to say there is no masculinity in kung fu, but sport fighting tends to draw it more, at least in my experience. If that was the experience of most, you would think kung fu would be as popular as MMA. As I've said before, if fighting was seen more - san da, shuai chiao, etc. then more masculinity would be attracted to it. Guys who want to fight are instantly turned away because they are under the impression that it's all forms, smoke and flowery techniques - things that attract the "nerd" group.

What I was getting at is you attract that type by doing just forms, theory, chi stuff...you attract the other type by training the fighting and conditioning. It's not that kung fu attracts "nerds", they are drawn by a certain facet, alpha males are drawn to another. It has nothing to do with it being kung fu, or Chinese, it's what aspect of TCMA you are focusing on.

There are lot of different things you can train that fall under the TCMA banner and it's doubtful you can train them all to mastery, even proficiency, so the gong fu you focus on dictates what you will achieve through it and the type of people you will draw to yourself.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Chan Wai did have a traditional CMA background. He trained in a style that is not to well known here in the US. The style is called Tan(Tam?) Gar, a southern style, and is famous for it's Chow family Ba Gua pole and a form known as Sam Chien. I do not know if the form is ancestral or related to the Sanchin form of Okinawa. The style also has five animals. That is much as I remember about that style. Chan Wai Man also studied Western boxing. He may have studied other things as well. He was able to bring that real fight intensity into his movie roles.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Greetings,

Chan Wai did have a traditional CMA background. He trained in a style that is not to well known here in the US. The style is called Tan(Tam?) Gar, a southern style, and is famous for it's Chow family Ba Gua pole and a form known as Sam Chien. I do not know if the form is ancestral or related to the Sanchin form of Okinawa. The style also has five animals. That is much as I remember about that style. Chan Wai Man also studied Western boxing. He may have studied other things as well. He was able to bring that real fight intensity into his movie roles.

mickey

Thanks for the info. I had concluded that CWM had trained karate because in an old HK magazine from the '70s (possibly New Martial Hero), there was an article about him that mentioned him practicing San Zhan (Japanese: Sanchin, 'three battles'; I studied Mandarin, not Cantonese). The magazine was all in Chinese. Since Goju-ryu karate is very popular in HK, I assumed he had studied that. I had forgotten that some southern CMA styles (Fukien/Fujian styles?) also have 'three battles' sets.

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WziC9cSTCWc

And one of my favorite films.

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxXL0S3Y5qo

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp39GZ7yCrw

Whats kung fu ? Like Karate. Is that Judo ? Before my time but I guess that's what it was like.

[Jimbo]

My CLF sifu had a school years before the TV show Kung Fu and the Bruce Lee/kung fu craze of the early '70s, and I remember him saying once that he had to include the word 'karate' on his sign, because hardly anybody had heard of kung fu at the time. It was the exact opposite of what would happen after the craze hit, in which many karate schools falsely advertised as teaching kung fu.

My Kenpo teacher, who was my first teacher in striking arts, had 'Chinese karate' on his window for years. To his credit, he never advertised his Kenpo as kung fu, though he did have some background in CMA (Taiji, Xingyi, etc.). And there were some Chinese influences in the way he taught sparring that were quite effective.

[SevenStar]

What I was getting at is you attract that type by doing just forms, theory, chi stuff...you attract the other type by training the fighting and conditioning. It's not that kung fu attracts "nerds", they are drawn by a certain facet, alpha males are drawn to another. It has nothing to do with it being kung fu, or Chinese, it's what aspect of TCMA you are focusing on.

There are lot of different things you can train that fall under the TCMA banner and it's doubtful you can train them all to mastery, even proficiency, so the gong fu you focus on dictates what you will achieve through it and the type of people you will draw to yourself.

it makes sense, but isn't always the case - exceptions to every rule, I suppose. I live in an mma town. there is good some good kung fu here and a good kyokushin guy. all their schools will ever see, however are nerds, families and kids. Alpha types here go for bjj and muay thai. The people who are teaching good kung fu have extremely small classes - the nerd types who try it usually leave. those who stay comprise the small class. The muay thai and bjj classes, however are huge. nerd types usually don't last there. but everyone who even thinks they want to fight or may one day be involved in an altercation trains at these schools.

[SevenStar]

, there was an article about him that mentioned him practicing San Zhan (Japanese: Sanchin, 'three battles'; I studied Mandarin, not Cantonese). The magazine was all in Chinese. Since Goju-ryu karate is very popular in HK, I assumed he had studied that. I had forgotten that some southern CMA styles (Fukien/Fujian styles?) also have 'three battles' sets.

many southern styles have the set. crane, southern tiger, tai chor, ngo chor, dog boxing, etc. Tai chor preceded crane san zhan, which influenced goju.

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s
many southern styles have the set. crane, southern tiger, tai chor, ngo chor, dog boxing, etc. Tai chor preceded crane san zhan, which influenced goju.

[bawang]

many southern styles have the set. crane, southern tiger, tai chor, ngo chor, dog boxing, etc. Tai chor preceded crane san zhan, which influenced goju.

the prototype southern kung fu style was a group of mid 1800 navy boxing sets with no name and numbers only, with the set san zhan.

in 1900s this loose group diverged into many styles. the visits of okinawa students from 1850 to 1900 documents the change and evolution of this group, and when they diverged with okinawa karate. okinawa karate is actually one of the most oldest southern kung fu styles. the visits showed that people who taught okinawa people over 50 years suddenly rearranged this original form in late 1800s early 1900s and created crane, tiger, etc.

[SevenStar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s

I've seen this before, this is a good example of it. you can see the differences here. other Okinawan styles had a different influence in their sanchin, some came from ngo cho, some southern tiger, etc.

[SevenStar]

the prototype southern kung fu style was a group of mid 1800 navy boxing sets with no name and numbers only, with the set san zhan.

in 1900s this loose group diverged into many styles. the visits of okinawa students from 1850 to 1900 documents the change and evolution of this group, and when they diverged with okinawa karate. okinawa karate is actually one of the most oldest southern kung fu styles. the visits showed that people who taught okinawa people over 50 years suddenly rearranged this original form in late 1800s early 1900s and created crane, tiger, etc.

Awesome. Never knew that. any links? Maybe my above post was a tad backwards, then. Were the differing san zhan sets perhaps from different sailors and later became associated with the different kung fu styles?

[bawang]

Awesome. Never knew that. any links? Maybe my above post was a tad backwards, then. Were the differing san zhan sets perhaps from different sailors and later became associated with the different kung fu styles?

san zhan is the compromise between realism and body mechanics, its somewhere in between. it shows the basic fighting concept of the style.

[boxerbilly]

One concept of that guard ( Sanchin) being, It invites attacks to the center. Open center. Whereas WC prefers you go around.

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLog9TMFfo8

I have no idea what this lady is singing about but it is a beautiful song.

[SevenStar]

One concept of that guard ( Sanchin) being, It invites attacks to the center. Open center. Whereas WC prefers you go around.

not all of them. The tai cho sanchin I learned covers the center. it does have the arms spreading portion but the thrust covers the center and the three steps forward and backward have the center covered.

[bawang]

not all of them. The tai cho sanchin I learned covers the center. it does have the arms spreading portion but the thrust covers the center and the three steps forward and backward have the center covered.

Okinawa karate is older than taizuquan

[boxerbilly]

not all of them. The tai cho sanchin I learned covers the center. it does have the arms spreading portion but the thrust covers the center and the three steps forward and backward have the center covered.

If you can find a video please post it. Id love to see that version. Here is a version I learned, similar ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3841Zef5cOU

Im sure more relaxed . This is a rather hard version.

Another concept. Pigeon toe. Why ? A few reasons I know of.

That said, That open center guard . Thai's did real well with it. Also you Mantis dudes and Im sure all you dudes. Lots of arm break variations with your mantis hook hands and forearm smash that center draw allows. Motions the same variations abound. Or Arm trap and open side shots galore. Easier to see in the Uechi Ryu version for karate guys. Break structure. Uechi version shows you don't have to stay on line. You can circle to the side. Uechi likely created it to stop his students from staying on line. Avoid head on collisions. Ive always preferred Uechi versions as far as karate is concerned.

[boxerbilly]

the prototype southern kung fu style was a group of mid 1800 navy boxing sets with no name and numbers only, with the set san zhan.

in 1900s this loose group diverged into many styles. the visits of okinawa students from 1850 to 1900 documents the change and evolution of this group, and when they diverged with okinawa karate. okinawa karate is actually one of the most oldest southern kung fu styles. the visits showed that people who taught okinawa people over 50 years suddenly rearranged this original form in late 1800s early 1900s and created crane, tiger, etc.

You should write a book !

[SevenStar]

If you can find a video please post it. Id love to see that version. Here is a version I learned, similar ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3841Zef5cOU

Im sure more relaxed . This is a rather hard version.

Another concept. Pigeon toe. Why ? A few reasons I know of.

That said, That open center guard . Thai's did real well with it. Also you Mantis dudes and Im sure all you dudes. Lots of arm break variations with your mantis hook hands and forearm smash that center draw allows. Motions the same variations abound. Or Arm trap and open side shots galore. Easier to see in the Uechi Ryu version for karate guys. Break structure. Uechi version shows you don't have to stay on line. You can circle to the side. Uechi likely created it to stop his students from staying on line. Avoid head on collisions. Ive always preferred Uechi versions as far as karate is concerned.

Traditional Thai guard is actually more open, as the elbows flare outward. That is done so That incoming round kicks have possibility of connecting with your elbow, damaging the opponent. The elbow down position seen here prevents the elbow from being used as a lever in chin na. The pigeon toed stance is for protection. The southern styles aren't kicking styles. When they do kick, they are below waist level and some styles only had one or two kicks - a front kick and a stomp kick. The stance protects the groin from that common front kick, much in the way the Thai stance elbow position protects against the roundhouse. The guard is closer how I learned it, but pretty much all San zhan / sanchin is similar. The stance is for protection and rooting, maximizing the amount of short power that can be easily applied.

[boxerbilly]

Traditional Thai guard is actually more open, as the elbows flare outward. That is done so That incoming round kicks have possibility of connecting with your elbow, damaging the opponent. The elbow down position seen here prevents the elbow from being used as a lever in chin na. The pigeon toed stance is for protection. The southern styles aren't kicking styles. When they do kick, they are below waist level and some styles only had one or two kicks - a front kick and a stomp kick. The stance protects the groin from that common front kick, much in the way the Thai stance elbow position protects against the roundhouse. The guard is closer how I learned it, but pretty much all San zhan / sanchin is similar. The stance is for protection and rooting, maximizing the amount of short power that can be easily applied.

Thanks SevenStar.

[Jimbo]

Traditional Thai guard is actually more open, as the elbows flare outward. That is done so That incoming round kicks have possibility of connecting with your elbow, damaging the opponent. The elbow down position seen here prevents the elbow from being used as a lever in chin na. The pigeon toed stance is for protection. The southern styles aren't kicking styles. When they do kick, they are below waist level and some styles only had one or two kicks - a front kick and a stomp kick. The stance protects the groin from that common front kick, much in the way the Thai stance elbow position protects against the roundhouse. The guard is closer how I learned it, but pretty much all San zhan / sanchin is similar. The stance is for protection and rooting, maximizing the amount of short power that can be easily applied.

Good info.

I would point out that there are variations (some great) among southern styles. Styles like CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, etc., have more kicks and/or open positions and movements than the (primarily Fujian?) systems that specialize in short-hand. That doesn't necessarily mean the more 'open/expansive' styles are more vulnerable, but they operate on different principles. I still wouldn't classify them as 'kicking styles' per se, but they are far more versatile in leg techniques than just a low front snap kick and low heel thrust. Although I have heard that Hung Gar was originally narrower and less expansive than it's often seen now.

I studied Lung Ying (Dragon) for a while in the '80s, and there was a lot of front knee and foot pointed in, elbows down and chest caved in. Even more "closed in" than the San Zhan stance appears to me. It was a good system, but it felt uncomfortable and unnatural to me, even after 18 months, so I moved on. Someone else might feel differently.

[boxerbilly]

Good info.

I would point out that there are variations (some great) among southern styles. Styles like CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, etc., have more kicks and/or open positions and movements than the (primarily Fujian?) systems that specialize in short-hand. That doesn't necessarily mean the more 'open/expansive' styles are more vulnerable, but they operate on different principles. I still wouldn't classify them as 'kicking styles' per se, but they are far more versatile in leg techniques than just a low front snap kick and low heel thrust. Although I have heard that Hung Gar was originally narrower and less expansive than it's often seen now.

I studied Lung Ying (Dragon) for a while in the '80s, and there was a lot of front knee and foot pointed in, elbows down and chest caved in. Even more "closed in" than the San Zhan stance appears to me. It was a good system, but it felt uncomfortable and unnatural to me, even after 18 months, so I moved on. Someone else might feel differently.

Equally good info.

Thanks Jimbo.

[SevenStar]

Good info.

I would point out that there are variations (some great) among southern styles. Styles like CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, etc., have more kicks and/or open positions and movements than the (primarily Fujian?) systems that specialize in short-hand. That doesn't necessarily mean the more 'open/expansive' styles are more vulnerable, but they operate on different principles. I still wouldn't classify them as 'kicking styles' per se, but they are far more versatile in leg techniques than just a low front snap kick and low heel thrust. Although I have heard that Hung Gar was originally narrower and less expansive than it's often seen now.

I studied Lung Ying (Dragon) for a while in the '80s, and there was a lot of front knee and foot pointed in, elbows down and chest caved in. Even more "closed in" than the San Zhan stance appears to me. It was a good system, but it felt uncomfortable and unnatural to me, even after 18 months, so I moved on. Someone else might feel differently.

in the tai cho san zhan we cave the chest and have the elbows down as well. I agree, trying to adjust to it sucks. I'm readjusting now, because in bak mei, the stance isn't pigeon toed. still very closed upper half, though - elbows down, caved chest.

[bawang]

in the tai cho san zhan we cave the chest and have the elbows down as well. I agree, trying to adjust to it sucks. I'm readjusting now, because in bak mei, the stance isn't pigeon toed. still very closed upper half, though - elbows down, caved chest.

u need to do the wobbly belly thing with mma ropes, then u get the souther power. it feel awkward cuz u trying to rotate ur torso.

[SevenStar]

u need to do the wobbly belly thing with mma ropes, then u get the souther power. it feel awkward cuz u trying to rotate ur torso.

wobbly belly?

[bawang]

spine wave aka spitting power

also concave chest closes the gap in ur solar plexus, southern kung fu loves punching ther

[SevenStar]

spine wave aka spitting power



https://youtu.be/MSmgkJ2wasI