bad horse stance or what?

[neptunesfall]

i posted this in a thread on the Shaolin section, but no one has yet to reply, so i'm going to ask here.
at www.shaolinwolf.com, (http://www.shaolinwolf.com,) it shows shi yan ming in a horse stance.
if proper horse stance form is with toes pointed forward or slightly inward, why are his feet pointed outwards at something like 45°?
the same goes for www.thousandbuddha.org (http://www.thousandbuddha.org) with the picture of the monk with the 2 children.
whats up with that?

[Ish]

I've always done a horse stance with my feet pointed out 45 degrees

[neptunesfall]

what style of ma do you study, ISH?

[shinwa]

Nothing is wrong with his form. It supports both stability and movement.

[Chang Style Novice]

I gotta horse stance question, too. I've read on this forum that for best results in a deep horse stance, your knees should be at right angles (90 degrees), your thighs should be parallel to the ground, and your knees should not extend past your toes. I know from my shifu, whom I haven't seen in a while, that your butt needs to be tucked in and back should be straight up.

Problem is, if I do all these things it leads to an unbalance toward the rear - ie: I fall backward. Since my (and presumably most peoples') trunk, arms, and head comprise the majority of body mass, I don't understand how to overcome this problem. If my shins are pointing straight up, and my thighs are parallel to the ground, that puts my butt a foot or so behind my feet, with no support from below.

What is the solution? A wider stance, with my feet closer to the line formed by my shoulders? This will take more hip flexibility than I currently have. Better rooting (it seems that this could only help so much due to simple leverage and physics)? Something else I haven't thought of?

Please help. I'm afraid I can't find the images referred to in the links above, so they don't offer any help.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Wongsifu]

okay technically the reason your toes point forwards is to lock the tendons of the legs, the horse stance is not supposed to be a muscular excersise, thus if you have your toes pointing outwards you use your thigh muscles not your tendnons, pan qin fu calls this the toilet stance,because when you take a nice long dump in the toilet your legs are outwards not straight at 90 degrees.
About feeling that you are imbalanced to the rear it is because technically you are leaniong to the rear, move your body forwards and put your weight on th eball of oyur foot , where your k-1 kidney point is yong chuan . and you will feel that you are more balanced , even though it feels like you are leaning forwards if you ask someone if you are straight they will say yes.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[Water Dragon]

Chang, if it helps, I don't even do the horse anymore. I do the Three Flats exclusively. I also do the rest of the 13 naughty boys more as yogic asanas than traditional stance training. Try it out. The benefits are unbelievable.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Mr. Nemo]

Chang style novice: I had your exact same problem. In fact, I asked the forum about it a while ago (though I didn't get much response). It took me close to six months of obsessing about it to finally figure it out.

I've concluded that when one is in a horse stance, it's OK to let the knees extend past the toes. My sifu does stances with his knees past the toes, so do several other people in my class. They've all been doing it for a while, and none of them have any knee problems. Second, it's okay if there's a little bit of tilt forward in the back, but not too much.

To be in a horse stance with the knees behind the toes, the back straight up and down, the feet parallel and facing forward, the thighs parallel to the ground, and the knees at a 90 degree angle is impossible. It may be possible with the toes pointed outward and the legs spread very wide.

I'm not sure that I can tell you how I figured out how to do low horse stances without either leaning way forward or falling over backwards, I just did. I'm afraid the only advice I can give you is to keep trying and you'll figure it out. I was there too. It didn't take me that long to get it.

[JWTAYLOR]

CSN, yep, I've always disagreed with those that say your thighs are parallel and your back is strait up and down. That means your thighs and spine are perpendicular. From a standing position that is absolutely impossible.

Pick your thighs up so that they are more like knee just over the foot, and keep tucking that pelvis. Butt out is no way to train. It goes against both "internal" body alignment principles as well as general good fighting principles as it puts the weight behind you and not in your thighs.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[honorisc]

The Shaolinwolf link did not connect after I clicked on it.

The second link showed a transitory position. this is an adaptive bow and arrow stance. This image does not show nor should it be considered to show or attemt to show a horse-riding stance.

As to the forty five degree angle thing, this is likely from people who Use the stance and the angle out is for mobility. While some people start out with this variatin on straight ahead (Note: straight ahead is likely the variation as when riding a standing horse the toes are out, when relaxed~--natural. The feet more naturally go toes to out than parallel and straight ahead (look at the direction your feet are when you walk without trying to walk any particular way).

Masters might do the forty-five degree angle thing because they are standing relaxedly. Students who are not masters should mind their critiquing Of masters~. Students are to do the parallel and straight ahead thing because it makes for a better development of tools than initially naturally standing. After training for years, parallel and straight ahead has become natural. But as you broaden your training you might lose concentration on the things that you do currently naturally well. Note: they are still Masters. And being Human does not detract from their exquisite honed talents or highly developed and developing applicable skills. EndNote.

Chang Style Novice, in the description of how to stand in the horse-riding stance, traditionally, theoretically, shins are not referrenced. Please note that a human thigh tends to be thick. Parallel to the ground varies depending upon what part of the thigh is supposed to be parallel. If the bottom of the thighs are supposed to be parallel when the knees are at ninety degrees the knees would have to be over the foot close to the front. This puts your hips over your heels and you don't have to fall back.

If you put your feet between your hips and your knees mightbe close to how it's supposed to be. There's more to it. Actively standing. Ask your instructors about what intention should you use when you stand. The knees out thing would compensate for the knees not beypond toes thing. Also height being determined by the thighs might influence how the propper stance should be done for your height. These are different thinkings yet you might go further by looking at them in reference to what you are looking to do.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Chang Style Novice]

Water Dragon -

Three Levels is a killer, but I love it! The rest of the 13 Naughty Boys rock, too. I don't know quite what you mean by yogic asanas, though, as I've only done a very small amount of yoga. Can you clarify, please?

Nemo, JWT, etc. -

That advise sounds like what I've ended up with in my own practice. I usually keep my feet at double or so shoulder width, toes forward, and knees bent at about 90 degrees with a 'rounded' contour to the outside of the leg. This puts my knees forward of the feet, my hips and shoulders in line with the ankle, and my things about 45 degree off from the ground. It's very comfortable (for a horse stance) and I don't have to strain too much to hold it for a while, although my muscles twitch and tremble like they're supposed to (or such is my understanding.)

Does that sound about right to y'all?

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Xebsball]

I learned feet pointing forward, no 45 degree thing.

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"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Mr. Nemo]

I think the direction that the toes point in depends on the person. Some people's toes naturally point out, even when they just stand normally or when they walk. When I stand and walk normally, my toes point more or less straight ahead.

The important thing, I think, is the tendon on the inside of the knee. If you feel like you're putting a load on the tendon on the inside of your knee, that is most likely not a correct horse stance.

Water Dragon and Chang style: What are the "three flats/levels"?

[Water Dragon]

No problem Chang, here’s how I do a few of them. Play around and you’ll get it. First, forget about stances as a strengthening exercise. You’ll put that aspect back in, but first think of each posture as a stretch.

Three Flats. Bend over at the waist when you go down. Make sure your butt is sticking out. Now, arch your back and stretch your spine. Worry more about the stretch than the shape. You’ll get there.

X Stance. Make sure both feet are turned in as far as possible. Arch your back for the spine stretch. You will also feel it in your calves. Make sure you roll your elbows to the front, that’s a stretch too.

Dragon Plays in the Water. Push your hands forward and push your raised leg straight out. Feel the stretch through your whole torso.

Balance Stance. Arch your back on this one.

Beauty Looks in the Mirror. Check out some Yoga sites for the Proud Warrior pose. Pretty much the same thing.

I don’t do axe sharpening, but love the elbow bending stance out of a classic front stance. On this one, you can feel the stretch coil through your whole body.

Reaping Rice. Focus on the stretch in your front leg.

After you get the stretch, put the dynamic tension back in to get the strength benefits.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[PaleDragon]

the back leg of whichever direction you are facing could be staggered out more in front of you than your front leg...just enough to where if you twist to a bow stance you'll have the correct distance between your legs. that may help keep you from falling backwards.

[Water Dragon]

stagger your back leg out

Like Southern Mantis?

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Chang Style Novice]

Nemo -

3 Flats (or 3 Levels, as we call it in my school) is one of the postures in the 13 Naughty Boys Qigong that we're talking about. The basic idea is to hold your feet together, hold your arms straight out in front, and bend your knees until thighs, arms, and feet are all parallel to the floor, hence the name. 13 Naughty Boys Qigong is a qigong mostly intended to improve strength and balance for Shuai Chiao.

Water Dragon -

I'm not sure i know which one you mean by "X Stance" - is that where you cross legs at the ankle and hold the rear ankle with the hand matching the leg in front, and hold the other hand above your head? We call that one 'confused roots of decayed tree.'
_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjam

[Water Dragon]

No, but Old Tree Entangling RooT is another good one, stretches out the torso.

The X stance is where you are in a wide horse, turn both toes in, pull your knees in, bend over, arch your back, stick both hands out palms up, and turn your elbows to the front. I'm not sure what you guys call it.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[neptunesfall]

i used to have that same stability problem also.
i realized that i was trying too hard to keep my back straight and overcompensating. what i thought was straight was actually me pushing my hips forward too much, resulting in my upper torso leaning a bit back, almost like the angel gazes at the moon stance.
once i learned to relax my back a little bit, roll my hips under instead of pushing them forward, and sinking my weight straight down, balance and stability were all there.

[SanHeChuan]

I find that pointing my feet at 45 degrees is kinder on my knees.

When your doing a horse stance your creating an arch, and an arch pushes out not down (architecture major), so if your in a horse stance with your knees and feet pointing forward then the forces are pushing one the side of your knee(they dont bend that way)

If you point your feet/knees out some it's easier on you joints.

anyone disagree?

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"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

Hou fa xian zhi
-start later, but reach first.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

we are supposed to do them feet parallell at my school, but sifu wont really b!tch if you feel you have to point them out a little.

i usually try to do them feet parallell, but sometimes this causes pain on the outside of my knee . . not the inside. could this be caused by horse stance or is it just a symptom of another problem?

where's my beer?