Chi Sao with sifu

[stonecrusher69]

Rare video of me and my Sifu practicing so lite chi sao.
https://youtu.be/38qT9KgwWuk

http://https://youtu.be/38qT9KgwWuk

[boxerbilly]

Thanks for sharing.

[stonecrusher69]

Thanks for sharing.

Your welcome...I was hoping to get some dialogue going but it seems his forum
has died

[boxerbilly]

Yes sir, that would be great.

Hopefully you can turn that around .

[Sihing73]

Morning,

Without wanting to disparage the clip, I tend to think of this more of an example of a push hands type of drill than traditional Chi Sau.
Not saying that is bad, but certainly different than what I normally envision as Chi Sau.
Do you have the more traditional drills as well?

[stonecrusher69]

Morning,

Without wanting to disparage the clip, I tend to think of this more of an example of a push hands type of drill than traditional Chi Sau.
Not saying that is bad, but certainly different than what I normally envision as Chi Sau.
Do you have the more traditional drills as well?
Yes, I do also the traditional Luk sao platform also...just wanted to show something different

[Sihing73]

No worries, different is always nice to see.

Funny thing is that when I got into Wing Chun I though our system was the only one with "sensitivity training" like Chi Sau.
However many arts have training methods to deal with "energy".

A friend of mine who does Pekitit Tirisa and I used to work a serious which went from Chis Sau to Break in and Break Out and Hubub and back again.
While very eclectic it was a lot of fun and got one used to working from non traditional angles.

I can see the benefit of working the energy shown in the clip as long s you are aware and also train to close your center.

[stonecrusher69]

No worries, different is always nice to see.

Funny thing is that when I got into Wing Chun I though our system was the only one with "sensitivity training" like Chi Sau.
However many arts have training methods to deal with "energy".

A friend of mine who does Pekitit Tirisa and I used to work a serious which went from Chis Sau to Break in and Break Out and Hubub and back again.
While very eclectic it was a lot of fun and got one used to working from non traditional angles.

I can see the benefit of working the energy shown in the clip as long s you are aware and also train to close your center.
Oh yeah I agree you have to close your center, eventhough your center is open so is his so neither have an advantage

[Sihing73]

Oh yeah I agree you have to close your center, eventhough your center is open so is his so neither have an advantage

On this I kind of disagree......

What I mean is that if your understanding is greater you can lead your opponent and take advantage of his "open center"
What I am getting at is that each method of stance shifting, Heels, Center, Balls of feet have advanatages and disadvantages.
The more you understand the better you can utilize each approach and better to understand the weakness by an opponent presenting one approach.

My old Sigung would say you could not fight from a low stance.
Then he would take a low stance and kick the crap out of us from that low stance.
The understanding of the pros and cons made this possible.

[YouKnowWho]

take advantage of his "open center" ...
Agree! You want to "open your opponent's center". IMO, both Taiji push hand and WC sticky hand are used to fight for "dominate arms position". You want your arms to be

- on top (so you will have weight advantage), and
- inside (so you can separate your opponent's arms away from his body),

of your opponent's arms. The "sensitive" is just the byproduct of the training. This way, you will have your "goal".

[Sihing73]

- on top (so you will have weight advantage), and
- inside (so you can separate your opponent's arms away from his body),.

Could you describe in more detail how you place your hands both on top and also inside???
To my thinking this would more likely cause your energy to press outward but if your hands are on top this would seem to require you to either hook the opponents arms or use a larger circle movement to press outwards. Think Kow Sau.

[YouKnowWho]

Could you describe in more detail how you place your hands both on top and also inside???
To my thinking this would more likely cause your energy to press outward but if your hands are on top this would seem to require you to either hook the opponents arms or use a larger circle movement to press outwards. Think Kow Sau.
My favor "strategy" is to use my right hand to grab (or soft hold, or downward parry) on my opponent's left wrist. When he tries to rotate his arm to deal with it, I then slide my right hand along his left arm, put palm on top of his left elbow joint and inside his left arm. My left hand can do the same with his right arm at the same time.

When I'm in that position (it's called mantis hands in CMA), my arms are in a "dominate position". I can punch or clinch. All game will start from there.

The reason it's called "dominate position" because when you are there, your opponent can neither punch you nor wrestle you.

10164

[stonecrusher69]

On this I kind of disagree......

What I mean is that if your understanding is greater you can lead your opponent and take advantage of his "open center"
What I am getting at is that each method of stance shifting, Heels, Center, Balls of feet have advanatages and disadvantages.
The more you understand the better you can utilize each approach and better to understand the weakness by an opponent presenting one approach.

My old Sigung would say you could not fight from a low stance.
Then he would take a low stance and kick the crap out of us from that low stance.
The understanding of the pros and cons made this possible.when we are playing chi sao we sometimes leave the center open to bait ghe oponent. It's a tactical move..a chess game

[Sihing73]

when we are playing chi sao we sometimes leave the center open to bait ghe oponent. It's a tactical move..a chess game

It was said that Yip Man did not like to do Chi Sau with students as he would be required to create openings to them.
I believe he said this could lead to bad habits.

I understand tactics, at least I hope I do :o
Refer to my post where I say as long as you have a better understanding of the pros and cons you can do many things.

Then again, my understanding may only be rudimentary as I admit I still have much to learn.
Especially as regards women.................................does anyone understand them????:confused:

[Wayfaring]

Yes, I do also the traditional Luk sao platform also...just wanted to show something different

Light touch practicing huen sao? Running around?

No centerline there. It certainly is different from what we practice. I can hear GM Garrett Gee's voice echoing in my head "we live AND die on the centerline".

But people do chi sau for all sorts of reasons. I'm not a real big fan of the flowey flowery stuff. It is more towards this kind of thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLSKs8bEdq4

IMO without centerline structure there is no ability to intercept force. It is all "loi lau" and no "hoi sung", because the softness is crashed by the force beyond the boundaries of its own structure. I don't think it will hold up to sparring level forces.

I do realize the Luk sao Ip Man platform has some more centerline structure.

Anyway there's your wish - some discussion on KFO - lol.

[stonecrusher69]

Light touch practicing huen sao? Running around?

No centerline there. It certainly is different from what we practice. I can hear GM Garrett Gee's voice echoing in my head "we live AND die on the centerline".

But people do chi sau for all sorts of reasons. I'm not a real big fan of the flowey flowery stuff. It is more towards this kind of thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLSKs8bEdq4

IMO without centerline structure there is no ability to intercept force. It is all "loi lau" and no "hoi sung", because the softness is crashed by the force beyond the boundaries of its own structure. I don't think it will hold up to sparring level forces.

I do realize the Luk sao Ip Man platform has some more centerline structure.

Anyway there's your wish - some discussion on KFO - lol.


Just because it is soft and flowing it has structure..

[Wayfaring]

Just because it is soft and flowing it has structure..

listen softly grasshopper to the sound of one hand clapping.

everything has structure. here, however, we are focusing on the structure necessary to prevent someone from giving you a "Glasgow kiss" while you are playing swirly hands.

[Wayfaring]

Agree! You want to "open your opponent's center". IMO, both Taiji push hand and WC sticky hand are used to fight for "dominate arms position". You want your arms to be

- on top (so you will have weight advantage), and
- inside (so you can separate your opponent's arms away from his body),

of your opponent's arms. The "sensitive" is just the byproduct of the training. This way, you will have your "goal".

interesting. this also describes a wrestlers frame.

[Wayfaring]

Funny thing is that when I got into Wing Chun I though our system was the only one with "sensitivity training" like Chi Sau.

I've stopped viewing chi sau as a sensitivity training exercise. To me the point of chi sau is the point where 2 hands control 1 hand, or 1 hand controls the center of gravity.

This is sensitivity training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlDFdFWJc3M

I don't think that will hold up to a couple 13 yr old's takedowns that I know.

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiGtgw4I7cU

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fz-duVr-vY

[Sihing73]

I've stopped viewing chi sau as a sensitivity training exercise. To me the point of chi sau is the point where 2 hands control 1 hand, or 1 hand controls the center of gravity.

This is sensitivity training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlDFdFWJc3M

I don't think that will hold up to a couple 13 yr old's takedowns that I know.

To me Chi Sau is training on how to deal with energy.
In some cases you can control the opponents centerline without controlling their hands.

[stonecrusher69]

To me Chi Sau is training on how to deal with energy.
In some cases you can control the opponents centerline without controlling their hands.

It's controlling everything , energy movement.

[zuti car]

Morning,

Without wanting to disparage the clip, I tend to think of this more of an example of a push hands type of drill than traditional Chi Sau.
Not saying that is bad, but certainly different than what I normally envision as Chi Sau.
Do you have the more traditional drills as well?

Actually it is trdtional chi sao , more traditional than rolling hands. I can see here big\small huen sao platforms , that kind of chi sao can be found in SCWC. Big huen sao platform can be found in alsmost all wck styles besides Yip Man's .

[Sihing73]

Actually it is trdtional chi sao , more traditional than rolling hands. I can see here big\small huen sao platforms , that kind of chi sao can be found in SCWC. Big huen sao platform can be found in alsmost all wck styles besides Yip Man's .

Traditional??? To who? The majority of those practicing Wing Chun today would probably not consider this as an example of "traditional" Chi Sau.
Of course that does not mean the approach is not valid, I am just not sure I would tout it as a more traditional method as it is not as widely known.

While there may be examples of Huen Sau within the movements, the fact is that this type of practice does not appear to train one to take the centerline. Rather it appears to leave the center open. Of course, there are reasons for doing do in training but to me it seems more like Push Hands. Both approaches have merit and I am not saying this is no good, only that is appears more akin to Push Hands than Chi Sau.

As to SCWC I will leave that subject alone as I do not know much about it and prefer not to be drawn into controversy of whether it is even real or not. Having said that I fully accept there are many things which I do not know so SCWC could be a valid and wonderful art. Just that some who tried to promote it appeared to be less that reliable.

[YouKnowWho]

During training, you should try to move from the "wrist gate" into the "elbow gate" and then reach to the "shoulder/head gate". You should not just stay on the wrist gate. As long as your opponent's elbow joint is free, you are not truly controlling that arm.

If you are aiming to reach to the "shoulder/head gate", you will have something to work for and that will be your "goal". IMO, it's better to have a "goal" in training. This way you will not just you parry my arm and I parry your arm back. You then repeat that from sun raise until sun set.

[Wayfaring]

To me Chi Sau is training on how to deal with energy.
In some cases you can control the opponents centerline without controlling their hands.

I would agree. Over-emphasizing controlling the hands leads to chasing hands, which leads to losing centerline control. If your huen sao has more to do with sticking to your opponent than it does to do with recovering your centerline you see this.

[Wayfaring]

During training, you should try to move from the "wrist gate" into the "elbow gate" and then reach to the "shoulder/head gate". You should not just stay on the wrist gate. As long as your opponent's elbow joint is free, you are not truly controlling that arm.


Yes. No influence of opponent's elbow position and hence no influence of opponent's centerline with primarily wrist on wrist contact. Down the arm starts to influence center more.