View Full Version : Tang Yik Weng Chun Pole Method
Shot some footage this morning. Was planning on putting it up over on the martialtalk forum, but seeing that the moderators felt the need to semi-ban me I will put it up here instead! Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/bFcoXv7goAY
Keith
wckf92
12-11-2016, 06:02 PM
Shot some footage this morning. Was planning on putting it up over on the martialtalk forum, but seeing that the moderators felt the need to semi-ban me I will put it up here instead! Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/bFcoXv7goAY
Keith
Thx KPM
I asked a question on MT, but guess you can't respond if semi banned. :)
Thx KPM
I asked a question on MT, but guess you can't respond if semi banned. :)
Nope. They mess with your Java settings somehow to make everything very difficult to load. I could see the forum just enough to tell that Guy B. is evidently still posting, but I can't get any of the actual posts to open up. Go figure! I'm beginning to think that little to no moderation is better than what has been going on there! :cool:
There's lots of inconsistency form-wise in Yip Man lineages, especially with everything past Cham-kiu!
Everything you described YM pole doing are errors, not just from the perspective of my lineage, but in functionality.
Disconnected upper & lower body, muscling the pole around with weak arms, no whole body force, poor footwork, no strategy, etc. etc. (things never learned from YM).
The one thing I disagree on, and we discussed this before, is not rotating the pole during the thrust. Of course, if you hold the pole under your chin and turn your palm all the way up, you're putting yourself in a precarious position.
I'll repeat here what I said to you last time.
What makes this a real threat is holding the pole too low and thrusting incorrectly, not to mention lack of strategy. We generally won't just go thrusting at people as a first action. We want to open a line of attack so that the opponent's pole is not above ours during the thrust, anyway.
But, unless someone is twice your height, they shouldn't be able to deliver a downward blow to a high thrust held correctly, but only smack it sideward or diagonally downward at best. In which case, so long as the rear hand is not overly rotated, the pole will be securely supported by the thenar eminence. It should also not be right under your face, anyway, but inside the front shoulder.
Done correctly, a good rotation of the pole will add penetrating force without risk of getting the pole smacked out of your hands. Spiralling a "punch" from the rear hand is a common spear method in both Northern and Southern styles. Just have to know how and when to do it. It doesn't appear many YM lineages have a grasp of pole strategy outside the form.
I agree the elbow of the rear arm shouldn't be flared perpendicular to the body during the thrust. It should be aligned in the direction of the thrust. However, rotating the rear hand helps keep the elbow in and down without having an awkward wrist position which can break connection to the stance.
TY pole thrust appears a bit more of a "stab" from the arms, than a powerful penetrating blast from the whole body, but that may be what you're going for? Reason being because you "swing" the pole forward and end below chest level when your wrist, elbow, and pole are aligned on the horizontal plane.
Rotating the pole and thrusting higher angles the forearm with the elbow down so reaction force is transferred to/from the ground via the elbow, hip, and rear foot.
Hold your TY thrust out and press the tip of the pole forcefully into a solid object to feel what engages. You'll probably feel more anterior deltoid of the rear arm working in horizontal adduction. Do the same the YM way as I described and you'll feel the shoulder bypassed as force is directed more efficiently to/from the hip and rear foot via the elbow.
The TY way may be better if you're looking for quick and painful stabby actions, YM way for a powerful finishing blow. The strategies clearly differ quite a bit.
I'm beginning to think that little to no moderation is better than what has been going on there! :cool:
Especially stupid if you can't even open the conversation they send you that tells you why you've been banned... because you've been banned. :rolleyes: You can't read it, much less appeal.
How long do you have to sit out?
Especially stupid if you can't even open the conversation they send you that tells you why you've been banned... because you've been banned. :rolleyes: You can't read it, much less appeal.
How long do you have to sit out?
So tell me LFJ, neither you nor Guy B. got the same "semi-ban" that me and "Nobody Important" did? If that is true, then I won't be spending much more time there!
There's lots of inconsistency form-wise in Yip Man lineages, especially with everything past Cham-kiu!
---Very true!
Everything you described YM pole doing are errors, not just from the perspective of my lineage, but in functionality.
---Ah! But just go on youtube and search for videos of Ip Man pole (that's what I did) and you will see them all done very commonly.
The one thing I disagree on, and we discussed this before, is not rotating the pole during the thrust. Of course, if you hold the pole under your chin and turn your palm all the way up, you're putting yourself in a precarious position.
---That wasn't done in all of the pole videos I looked at, but it was done in enough of them to say that it appears to be a problem in lots of people's pole methods.
What makes this a real threat is holding the pole too low and thrusting incorrectly, not to mention lack of strategy.
---That "two step" rotating of the pole is slower and can be a problem when things are happening quickly.
We generally won't just go thrusting at people as a first action. We want to open a line of attack so that the opponent's pole is not above ours during the thrust, anyway.
---Sure. We do the same.
But, unless someone is twice your height, they shouldn't be able to deliver a downward blow to a high thrust held correctly, but only smack it sideward or diagonally downward at best.
---Nope. Easier than you think! We actually worked on an exercise for this on Saturday.
In which case, so long as the rear hand is not overly rotated, the pole will be securely supported by the thenar eminence. It should also not be right under your face, anyway, but inside the front shoulder.
---Its still going to pop up. Especially if you are using the longer and heavier pole that a lot of the Ip Man lineages like to train with.
Done correctly, a good rotation of the pole will add penetrating force without risk of getting the pole smacked out of your hands. Spiralling a "punch" from the rear hand is a common spear method in both Northern and Southern styles. Just have to know how and when to do it.
---From what I've seen, that "spiraling action" is meant to help keep the point of the spear headed in the right direction when doing a long thrust with a very flexible shaft that allows the tip of the spear to sag. That isn't really necessary with a pole that is stiffer. And if you are holding the rear hand with the palm up, a solid force from above is going to knock it out of your hand whether you have rotated the pole or not. "Penentrating force" isn't going to make any difference to how well you can keep ahold of the pole in the palm up position.
It doesn't appear many YM lineages have a grasp of pole strategy outside the form.
---As I said in the video, many YM lineages seem to just consider the pole as a conditioning tool and don't treat it as a real weapon.
I agree the elbow of the rear arm shouldn't be flared perpendicular to the body during the thrust. It should be aligned in the direction of the thrust. However, rotating the rear hand helps keep the elbow in and down without having an awkward wrist position which can break connection to the stance.
---Actually...no. Supinating the hand will naturally flare the elbow outward when the elbow is bent 90 degrees. You have to train not to do that. Pronating the hand naturally draws the elbow inward. You may not feel that because you have been training to supinate and keep the elbow in. But as I have been training a group of people new to the pole this is something I have seen in every one of them.
TY pole thrust appears a bit more of a "stab" from the arms, than a powerful penetrating blast from the whole body, but that may be what you're going for? Reason being because you "swing" the pole forward and end below chest level when your wrist, elbow, and pole are aligned on the horizontal plane.
---I wouldn't say "stab", but yes...that is a fair assessment. But the "cheung" is the same swinging motion as the "tik" while dropping forward into a low horse stance. It has enough penetrating power to knock someone off of their feet without over-extending the thrust.
Rotating the pole and thrusting higher angles the forearm with the elbow down so reaction force is transferred to/from the ground via the elbow, hip, and rear foot.
---That won't work with the elbow flared outward. Again, not everyone flares the elbow like that, but many do! Including some "Masters" showing their pole forms on youtube!
Hold your TY thrust out and press the tip of the pole forcefully into a solid object to feel what engages. You'll probably feel more anterior deltoid of the rear arm working in horizontal adduction. Do the same the YM way as I described and you'll feel the shoulder bypassed as force is directed more efficiently to/from the hip and rear foot via the elbow.
---Nope. The thrust is powered and supported by the rear arm and leg. So what is engaged mostly is the rear arm lats and the rear leg. Why would you think that holding the pole at shoulder level rather than lower (which is closer to the hips/legs) would be a better way to direct force towards the ground? That makes no biomechanical sense at all.
The TY way may be better if you're looking for quick and painful stabby actions, YM way for a powerful finishing blow. The strategies clearly differ quite a bit.
---Nope. Believe me, the "cheung" is certainly a powerful finishing blow! In fact, we don't use it that often for that reason. We can accomplish what we want with a "Tik" and it is less committed.
guy b.
12-12-2016, 09:59 AM
So tell me LFJ, neither you nor Guy B. got the same "semi-ban" that me and "Nobody Important" did? If that is true, then I won't be spending much more time there!
Don't worry, my guy b account is limited just the same as yours. It takes a very long time to post anything or read any message. Usually it wears off after a few days.
Looks like someone very angry is posting with the "lansao" account, quite entertaining. Maybe Alan has been possessed?
Don't worry, my guy b account is limited just the same as yours. It takes a very long time to post anything or read any message. Usually it wears off after a few days.
Looks like someone very angry is posting with the "lansao" account, quite entertaining. Maybe Alan has been possessed?
I can't even get the posts to open. I think it lasts for 1 week.
guy b.
12-12-2016, 11:41 AM
I can't even get the posts to open. I think it lasts for 1 week.
Maybe they banned you harder than me? Mine is just very slow. NI is still posting occasionally
Why don't you log in with a different browser (or delete stored data on the one you like to use), go to the site, make a new ID (KMP?), log in with that and away you go until ban is lifted? Worked for me last time they banned me.
Everything you described YM pole doing are errors, not just from the perspective of my lineage, but in functionality.
---Ah! But just go on youtube and search for videos of Ip Man pole (that's what I did) and you will see them all done very commonly.
The one thing I disagree on, and we discussed this before, is not rotating the pole during the thrust. Of course, if you hold the pole under your chin and turn your palm all the way up, you're putting yourself in a precarious position.
---That wasn't done in all of the pole videos I looked at, but it was done in enough of them to say that it appears to be a problem in lots of people's pole methods.
What makes this a real threat is holding the pole too low and thrusting incorrectly, not to mention lack of strategy.
---That "two step" rotating of the pole is slower and can be a problem when things are happening quickly.
It doesn't appear many YM lineages have a grasp of pole strategy outside the form.
---As I said in the video, many YM lineages seem to just consider the pole as a conditioning tool and don't treat it as a real weapon.
Rotating the pole and thrusting higher angles the forearm with the elbow down so reaction force is transferred to/from the ground via the elbow, hip, and rear foot.
---That won't work with the elbow flared outward. Again, not everyone flares the elbow like that, but many do! Including some "Masters" showing their pole forms on youtube!
Responding to all these points together, since the obvious answer is simple.
Most YM students never got past the CK form, and definitely never touched the weapons under his instruction. The knives are an even worse nightmare than the pole!
We know only a few ever completed the system, because by all accounts only 4 ever received the knives. So, all the errors seen committed by "masters" on Youtube really don't matter since they made it up themselves. They are not representative of YM pole work.
But, unless someone is twice your height, they shouldn't be able to deliver a downward blow to a high thrust held correctly, but only smack it sideward or diagonally downward at best.
---Nope. Easier than you think! We actually worked on an exercise for this on Saturday.
Because you train a different pole system that does low thrusts.
In which case, so long as the rear hand is not overly rotated, the pole will be securely supported by the thenar eminence. It should also not be right under your face, anyway, but inside the front shoulder.
---Its still going to pop up. Especially if you are using the longer and heavier pole that a lot of the Ip Man lineages like to train with.
Impossible when the pole is securely supported by the thenar eminence, as I said. If you over-rotate to where it's just the fingertips holding on, of course it will pop up, but that would be an error, anyway.
Done correctly, a good rotation of the pole will add penetrating force without risk of getting the pole smacked out of your hands. Spiralling a "punch" from the rear hand is a common spear method in both Northern and Southern styles. Just have to know how and when to do it.
---From what I've seen, that "spiraling action" is meant to help keep the point of the spear headed in the right direction when doing a long thrust with a very flexible shaft that allows the tip of the spear to sag. That isn't really necessary with a pole that is stiffer. And if you are holding the rear hand with the palm up, a solid force from above is going to knock it out of your hand whether you have rotated the pole or not. "Penentrating force" isn't going to make any difference to how well you can keep ahold of the pole in the palm up position.
Again, don't over-rotate.
I agree the elbow of the rear arm shouldn't be flared perpendicular to the body during the thrust. It should be aligned in the direction of the thrust. However, rotating the rear hand helps keep the elbow in and down without having an awkward wrist position which can break connection to the stance.
---Actually...no. Supinating the hand will naturally flare the elbow outward when the elbow is bent 90 degrees. You have to train not to do that. Pronating the hand naturally draws the elbow inward. You may not feel that because you have been training to supinate and keep the elbow in. But as I have been training a group of people new to the pole this is something I have seen in every one of them.
Quite the opposite!
Hold your hand pronated with fingers touching your opposite shoulder and elbow straight out parallel to the ground. From there, try to supinate your hand. You won't be able to turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down. Once supinated, you have to force your elbow to flare out, and you still won't be able to do it much. This is naturally drawing the elbow inward!
As you start rotating your hand back to the pronated position, it gets easier and easier to flare the elbow, until once again fully parallel to the ground. You can flap your arm in the chicken dance from that position. Keeping your elbow down with the hand pronated is something you choose to do.
If pole thrusting at shoulder level with a pronated hand and low elbow, like WT for example, the wrist will be in a very awkwardly bent and twisted position and will bear the force coming back on it. (They don't know this because they never do heavy target practice.)
By rotating the hand toward supination, you straighten out the wrist to a more natural and comfortable position that will allow the force to redirect down through the elbow that is brought down and in by this rotation.
You only need to rotate enough to straighten out the wrist while keeping the elbow down. Of course, over-rotating can cause risk having the pole knocked out of your hand. But that's why you don't over-rotate.
Hold your TY thrust out and press the tip of the pole forcefully into a solid object to feel what engages. You'll probably feel more anterior deltoid of the rear arm working in horizontal adduction. Do the same the YM way as I described and you'll feel the shoulder bypassed as force is directed more efficiently to/from the hip and rear foot via the elbow.
---Nope. The thrust is powered and supported by the rear arm and leg. So what is engaged mostly is the rear arm lats and the rear leg. Why would you think that holding the pole at shoulder level rather than lower (which is closer to the hips/legs) would be a better way to direct force towards the ground? That makes no biomechanical sense at all.
The lat would be used in medial rotation of the arm, but there is no such active rotation. The position is held passively. The active movers in the pole thrust are going to be your pec and front delt to adduct the arm across the body.
When you keep your pole, wrist, and elbow on the same horizontal plane, the reaction force will go back through your elbow, but since it's not redirecting downward, the force has to be countered by a strong contraction in the shoulder.
Thrusting the pole at shoulder level with the elbow angled downward is the same biomechanical sense as the basic VT punch with the fist and shoulder higher than the elbow. The elbow is at basically the same level as your low pole thrust, but it is angled downward from the forearm to more efficiently bypass the shoulder and redirect force to/from the hip and rear foot.
guy b.
12-13-2016, 01:03 AM
Hold your hand pronated with fingers touching your opposite shoulder and elbow straight out parallel to the ground. From there, try to supinate your hand. You won't be able to turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down. Once supinated, you have to force your elbow to flare out, and you still won't be able to do it much. This is naturally drawing the elbow inward!
As you start rotating your hand back to the pronated position, it gets easier and easier to flare the elbow, until once again fully parallel to the ground. You can flap your arm in the chicken dance from that position. Keeping your elbow down with the hand pronated is something you choose to do.
Good description
wckf92
12-13-2016, 04:22 AM
Responding to all these points together, since the obvious answer is simple.
Most YM students never got past the CK form, and definitely never touched the weapons under his instruction. The knives are an even worse nightmare than the pole!
We know only a few ever completed the system, because by all accounts only 4 ever....
Hi LFJ
Question: when you say "we know"...who is we? And if you're one of them, can you say who the four are?
Thx
wckf92
12-13-2016, 04:26 AM
And is it the same for pole? Ie only a few learned it from YM?
Most YM students never got past the CK form, and definitely never touched the weapons under his instruction. The knives are an even worse nightmare than the pole!
We know only a few ever completed the system, because by all accounts only 4 ever received the knives. So, all the errors seen committed by "masters" on Youtube really don't matter since they made it up themselves. They are not representative of YM pole work.
---Yes. Good point!
Because you train a different pole system that does low thrusts.
---No. You missed my meaning. This past weekend we worked on a drill to deal with high thrusts. And I'll say again....its much easier to come down on top of a high thrust than you seem to believe.
Impossible when the pole is securely supported by the thenar eminence, as I said. If you over-rotate to where it's just the fingertips holding on, of course it will pop up, but that would be an error, anyway.
---No. Not impossible. Its beginning to sound like you have never really trained the pole as a real weapon. While supporting the grip with the thenar eminence on top is certainly better than being completely palm up, to think a heavy pole getting whacked pretty forcefully is not going to pop out of your grip is wrong. Being completely palm down is the most secure way to hold the pole.
Hold your hand pronated with fingers touching your opposite shoulder and elbow straight out parallel to the ground. From there, try to supinate your hand. You won't be able to turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down. Once supinated, you have to force your elbow to flare out, and you still won't be able to do it much. This is naturally drawing the elbow inward!
---No. I think you are seeing what you want to see. As I noted before, you've trained this way so it seems natural to you. You are likely dropping your elbow rather than just leaving it in position to see what happens. Or you are over-rotating and forcing the supination. I have been teaching this to newbies lately and watching what they do. The tendency when someone supinates with the arm in that position is for the elbow to flare out. Why else do you think that is such an obvious and common error when you start looking at people doing the pole? If you are palm up and trying to grip the pole, you have to angle your wrist inward quite a bit. This flares the elbow outward in order to help align the wrist and reduce how much you have to angle it. People do this naturally to take pressure off of the wrist. When you are palm down and gripping the pole, angling the wrist pulls the elbow inward and people will more naturally tuck the elbow in to take the pressure off of the wrist. Regardless, it doesn't really matter. Keeping the elbow down and in is the important part, which we both agree upon!
As you start rotating your hand back to the pronated position, it gets easier and easier to flare the elbow, until once again fully parallel to the ground. You can flap your arm in the chicken dance from that position. Keeping your elbow down with the hand pronated is something you choose to do.
---You are not thinking in terms of trying to grip a pole at the same time!
By rotating the hand toward supination, you straighten out the wrist to a more natural and comfortable position that will allow the force to redirect down through the elbow that is brought down and in by this rotation.
---I will agree that having the hand HALF WAY into supination takes stress off of the wrist. But being fully in supination or fully in pronation is no difference as far as the angle of the wrist. In fact, to me at least, being fully supinated feels much more stressful on the wrist.....but maybe because this is the way I've been training. And as I pointed out....people will flare the elbow outward to relieve this stress on the wrist when in supination, and will tuck the elbow in to relieve the pressure on the wrist when in pronation. You are splitting the difference to relieve pressure on the wrist, but sacrificing some of the security of the grip in the process.
The lat would be used in medial rotation of the arm, but there is no such active rotation. The position is held passively. The active movers in the pole thrust are going to be your pec and front delt to adduct the arm across the body.
---So you think that the force of a thrust connecting is getting directed through the body and into the ground WITHOUT firing any other muscles????
When you keep your pole, wrist, and elbow on the same horizontal plane, the reaction force will go back through your elbow, but since it's not redirecting downward, the force has to be countered by a strong contraction in the shoulder.
---I'm not clear on what you are trying to say. We've both agree that the elbow shouldn't be flared outward on the same horizontal plane as the pole. Are you saying that when you do a full thrust you don't have the pole on a horizontal plane and are angling it upward?
Thrusting the pole at shoulder level with the elbow angled downward is the same biomechanical sense as the basic VT punch with the fist and shoulder higher than the elbow. The elbow is at basically the same level as your low pole thrust, but it is angled downward from the forearm to more efficiently bypass the shoulder and redirect force to/from the hip and rear foot.
---Sure. But again, you don't think it would more easily bypass the shoulder and redirect force through the rear leg when the pole is held lower than the shoulder?
guy b.
12-13-2016, 09:38 AM
Hold your hand pronated with fingers touching your opposite shoulder and elbow straight out parallel to the ground. From there, try to supinate your hand. You won't be able to turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down. Once supinated, you have to force your elbow to flare out, and you still won't be able to do it much. This is naturally drawing the elbow inward!
---No. I think you are seeing what you want to see. As I noted before, you've trained this way so it seems natural to you. You are likely dropping your elbow rather than just leaving it in position to see what happens. Or you are over-rotating and forcing the supination. I have been teaching this to newbies lately and watching what they do. The tendency when someone supinates with the arm in that position is for the elbow to flare out. Why else do you think that is such an obvious and common error when you start looking at people doing the pole? If you are palm up and trying to grip the pole, you have to angle your wrist inward quite a bit. This flares the elbow outward in order to help align the wrist and reduce how much you have to angle it. People do this naturally to take pressure off of the wrist. When you are palm down and gripping the pole, angling the wrist pulls the elbow inward and people will more naturally tuck the elbow in to take the pressure off of the wrist. Regardless, it doesn't really matter. Keeping the elbow down and in is the important part, which we both agree upon!
Follow the description. Palm up pulls the elbow in. Same reason you do tan 1x in SNT and fuk many times
Thrusting the pole at shoulder level with the elbow angled downward is the same biomechanical sense as the basic VT punch with the fist and shoulder higher than the elbow. The elbow is at basically the same level as your low pole thrust, but it is angled downward from the forearm to more efficiently bypass the shoulder and redirect force to/from the hip and rear foot.
---Sure. But again, you don't think it would more easily bypass the shoulder and redirect force through the rear leg when the pole is held lower than the shoulder?
Elbow just needs to be correct, thrust where you like. Ground path is through elbow to hip to back foot.
Follow the description. Palm up pulls the elbow in. Same reason you do tan 1x in SNT and fuk many times
---The dynamic is a bit different for the arm held out in front compared to doing it with the elbow bent at 90 degrees. People will naturally flare the elbow out to relieve pressure on the wrist when the grip is in supination, and will tuck the elbow in to relieve pressure on the wrist when the hand is gripping in pronation.
Elbow just needs to be correct, thrust where you like. Ground path is through elbow to hip to back foot.
---Yes, I agree. Maybe I was misreading his meaning, but it seemed like LFJ was saying this works better with the pole up at shoulder height than it does when the pole is held lower. That I would disagree with!
Here is another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_0lnNgd80A
Shot some footage this morning. Was planning on putting it up over on the martialtalk forum, but seeing that the moderators felt the need to semi-ban me I will put it up here instead! Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/bFcoXv7goAY
Keith
No offense to Leo Au Yeung, but this video features a lot of the differences I was pointing out: heavy pole held somewhat away from the body, wide spaced grip with rear hand behind the hip in the "ready" position, rear elbow flared out and rear hand gripping palm up during the thrust, very linear footwork, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhTRZXCvY5k
Because you train a different pole system that does low thrusts.
---No. You missed my meaning. This past weekend we worked on a drill to deal with high thrusts. And I'll say again....its much easier to come down on top of a high thrust than you seem to believe.
To be sure, I'm not talking about a thrust angled upward, but a level thrust from shoulder height. Also, in application the horse will be higher than in training. Really, the only way to come straight down on that sort of strike would be to do a flying monkey slam or some sh!t.
But, in any case, if an opponent is able to come down on top of the pole thrust, the person is thrusting at the wrong time. We always open a line of attack first. So, changing your grip to feel more secure is sacrificing mechanics that bypass the shoulder and redirect to/from the ground for security that really shouldn't matter if you're attacking at the right moment (strategy).
Impossible when the pole is securely supported by the thenar eminence, as I said. If you over-rotate to where it's just the fingertips holding on, of course it will pop up, but that would be an error, anyway.
---No. Not impossible. Its beginning to sound like you have never really trained the pole as a real weapon. While supporting the grip with the thenar eminence on top is certainly better than being completely palm up, to think a heavy pole getting whacked pretty forcefully is not going to pop out of your grip is wrong. Being completely palm down is the most secure way to hold the pole.
Ha! Long weapons have always been my favorite. I've studied many pole, staff, and spear methods from several TCMAs, and they all rotate on long range thrusts. You'd think after centuries of people getting killed on the battlefield as a result of getting their weapons knocked out of their hands, people would catch on and change the grip and thrusting method!
In fact, if we look at the TY pole video, we see exactly what I've been talking about.
Shoulder level thrust
Elbow angled downward
Both hands rotated
In your video, you say the lead hand stays supinated with the thumb on the side. TY's lead hand turns over as the pole is rotated during the thrust.
His rear hand is also rotated to maintain an anatomically straight wrist. An anatomically straight wrist has the hand tilted back slightly. To do this and maintain a low elbow, the hand is rotated toward supination, but is not overly rotated. The thenar eminence is still firmly securing the pole.
This is exactly how it should be done.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/LFJ3/TYcheung_zpsxovnuzab.png
---No. I think you are seeing what you want to see. As I noted before, you've trained this way so it seems natural to you. You are likely dropping your elbow rather than just leaving it in position to see what happens. Or you are over-rotating and forcing the supination.
No, sir. In the experiment I provided, you literally cannot turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down.
---You are not thinking in terms of trying to grip a pole at the same time!
Same thing, unless you over-rotate one way or the other. Then the elbow is flared to take pressure off the bent wrist. Now, as I've been saying, don't over-rotate! Do it exactly as TY does in his video and the elbow stays tucked in nicely while the wrist is comfortably in an anatomically straight position.
The lat would be used in medial rotation of the arm, but there is no such active rotation. The position is held passively. The active movers in the pole thrust are going to be your pec and front delt to adduct the arm across the body.
---So you think that the force of a thrust connecting is getting directed through the body and into the ground WITHOUT firing any other muscles????
Of course not, but it ain't the lat, especially not as a prime mover!
When you keep your pole, wrist, and elbow on the same horizontal plane, the reaction force will go back through your elbow, but since it's not redirecting downward, the force has to be countered by a strong contraction in the shoulder.
---I'm not clear on what you are trying to say. We've both agree that the elbow shouldn't be flared outward on the same horizontal plane as the pole. Are you saying that when you do a full thrust you don't have the pole on a horizontal plane and are angling it upward?
No. It is level. What I'm talking about is this. Your pole, wrist, and elbow (so, forearm) are all on the same horizontal plane. (You also say you keep the pole low like this, and not all the way up like YM, but that's not what TY does.) This means reaction force is coming straight back to your elbow and is not being redirected downward. Your anterior deltoid will be strongly engaged to counter this force.
If you were to maintain this hand orientation for a shoulder-height thrust as TY does, you'd end up with your rear wrist awkwardly bent and twisted like the WT version. Any heavy target practice would show you that the wrist would bear the force this way.
To keep the wrist straight and elbow down so that reaction force is redirected downward, you must rotate the rear hand toward supination as TY does (which also turns the lead hand over). The result is penetrating force supported by the ground, rather than a quick stabby action supported by the shoulder.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/LFJ3/KPMcheung_zpsxmpysejd.png
Thrusting the pole at shoulder level with the elbow angled downward is the same biomechanical sense as the basic VT punch with the fist and shoulder higher than the elbow. The elbow is at basically the same level as your low pole thrust, but it is angled downward from the forearm to more efficiently bypass the shoulder and redirect force to/from the hip and rear foot.
---Sure. But again, you don't think it would more easily bypass the shoulder and redirect force through the rear leg when the pole is held lower than the shoulder?
Not the way you showed it, because force is coming back in a straight line.
It's the same reason we keep the elbow down in the basic VT punch, and use a posterior pelvic tilt so that reaction force is redirected downward to the rear heel.
Question: when you say "we know"...who is we? And if you're one of them, can you say who the four are?
"We" is any observant people with half a brain. The majority of BJD material out there is insane and could not have come from YM. And, by all accounts, YM only taught the knives in any extent to at most 4 people.
As for who they are, obviously WSL received the entire form and fighting strategy, but he didn't want to embarrass anyone by naming the others.
But, we can conclude likely candidates based on time spent with YM and available material to examine.
The only other one besides WSL with anything remotely resembling usefulness and a coherent form is HKM. These are the only two guys that appear to have learned the whole system from YM. I've also heard HKM didn't finish the form before YM stopped teaching, and picked up the last section from WSL. But, saying this will only tick Joy off, so never mind.
The only other person who spent enough time with YM is CST, who was always honest about coming up with ideas himself (even for SNT), and said he only learned individual techniques, not a whole knife form. It can be seen from his knife video that he doesn't really know what he's doing with it (no awareness of knife strategy).
I'm not sure who the alleged 4th person is, though I heard it was someone who stopped training(?). I've not seen anyone else doing anything non-suicidal with the knives. Most others picked up a bit from WSL, or reverse engineered, or frankly pulled moves right out of their "4th point of contact".
And is it the same for pole? Ie only a few learned it from YM?
Evidently. As KPM has discovered, most YM lineage pole work is riddled with errors.
Indeed, very very few people ever learned YM's VT system in full. Honestly, it looks like only 2.
wckf92
12-14-2016, 03:38 AM
...a flying monkey slam or some sh!t. Got any video of this? :D
..... and they all rotate on long range thrusts. Yes, this is how I was taught to do it. But, slightly different than what you and KPM are discussing.
In fact, if we look at the TY pole video, we see exactly what I've been talking about.
Shoulder level thrust
Elbow angled downward
Both hands rotated
Are you saying what TY does is correct and matches how WSL does/did it?
...The thenar eminence... Not gonna lie...had to look that one up!!!! :D
This is exactly how it should be done.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/LFJ3/TYcheung_zpsxovnuzab.png
wckf92
12-14-2016, 03:48 AM
"We" is any observant people with half a brain. Ha! Understood. I'll look around for my other half a brain later today. :D
The majority of BJD material out there is insane and could not have come from YM. Don't want to derail KPM's thread from pole to knives, but do you care to cite an example or two of BJD insanity?
The only other one besides WSL with anything remotely resembling usefulness and a coherent form is HKM. Hmmm...interesting. How long did WSL learn from YM? And once he 'finished' did he continue to remain in contact with him?
or frankly pulled moves right out of their "4th point of contact". Wow! Haven't heard that one on a looooong time! :D
Evidently. As KPM has discovered, most YM lineage pole work is riddled with errors. Indeed, very very few people ever learned YM's VT system in full. Honestly, it looks like only 2. :(
To be sure, I'm not talking about a thrust angled upward, but a level thrust from shoulder height. Also, in application the horse will be higher than in training. Really, the only way to come straight down on that sort of strike would be to do a flying monkey slam or some sh!t.
---Not true. Not unless you are trying to thrust someone in the forehead, which is typically a pretty hard target to hit! We use a "got" which is a relatively large downward blow somewhat like swinging downward with a 2-handed sword. So the drill is to sidestep and deflect that committed thrust with a "choat" (which is somewhat like a Tan Sau) and then immediately do a "got" downward that knocks the opponent's pole off-line (or completely out of their hands) and follow that immediately with a thrust.
But, in any case, if an opponent is able to come down on top of the pole thrust, the person is thrusting at the wrong time. We always open a line of attack first.
---Part of the drill I mentioned is that the opponent has done something that knocks your pole off-line and you recover with the sidestep and choat as he does his thrust.
So, changing your grip to feel more secure is sacrificing mechanics that bypass the shoulder and redirect to/from the ground for security that really shouldn't matter if you're attacking at the right moment (strategy).
---Our mechanics "bypass the shoulder" just fine and redirect to the ground...with a secure grip.
In fact, if we look at the TY pole video, we see exactly what I've been talking about.
---Good catch! What can I say? I'm showing and explaining exactly what my Sifu taught me. I'm giving his explanations and justifications which make good sense to me. Who knows? Maybe Tang Yik switched the thrust around at some point so the grip was more secure. Or maybe he was somewhat cagey like WSL and put intentional errors in that video! ;-)
Of course not, but it ain't the lat, especially not as a prime mover!
---I thought we were talking about how the force is directed to the ground, not the prime mover.
This means reaction force is coming straight back to your elbow and is not being redirected downward. Your anterior deltoid will be strongly engaged to counter this force.
---And exactly why would you think that? The pole is horizontal, the elbow is down and tucked into the body. The lats are engaged to support the torso, keep the elbow tucked, and keep the shoulders from being pushed back. All of this directs the force downward into the rear leg. Why would this be any different than doing the thrust at shoulder level? If you are trying to connect with the hip and back leg with the thrust, doesn't it make more sense to have the pole a bit lower than way up at shoulder height? Its just better biomechanics and a more direct connection that way.
To keep the wrist straight and elbow down so that reaction force is redirected downward, you must rotate the rear hand toward supination as TY does (which also turns the lead hand over). The result is penetrating force supported by the ground, rather than a quick stabby action supported by the shoulder.
---Just how is the wrist at all straight during the thrust, regardless of how you are gripping the pole? As I said before, the wrist must bend when gripping the pole. People naturally tend to relieve pressure on the wrist created by this bend. If your hand is palm up, the pressure is relieved by flaring the elbow outward. If your hand is palm down, the pressure is relieved by tucking the elbow in. Just simple biomechanics.
Not the way you showed it, because force is coming back in a straight line.
---I don't know what you are seeing, but my elbow is down and not flared out. You have caught me just before completing the thrust. At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the level of the pole.
Got any video of this? :D
0:16 Yaaa!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YONe5kU-tQ
Are you saying what TY does is correct and matches how WSL does/did it?
Yes.
do you care to cite an example or two of BJD insanity?
How about Juany on the other forum who just said he prefers Kali to BJD because their "defang the snake" philosophy, taking out the limbs, makes more sense than having to go "all the way" through their guard.
If that's what he learned as BJD, it's suicidal and he's right to learn something else.
Funny, because "defang the snake" also describes YM's BJD strategy, but obviously Cheung didn't get that in his secret closed-door training sessions.
How long did WSL learn from YM? And once he 'finished' did he continue to remain in contact with him?
He started at age 17 and did bei-mo to roughly age 24, around the time YM's teaching slowed down before retirement a couple years later. He always analyzed his experience with YM afterward.
But, in any case, if an opponent is able to come down on top of the pole thrust, the person is thrusting at the wrong time. We always open a line of attack first.
---Part of the drill I mentioned is that the opponent has done something that knocks your pole off-line and you recover with the sidestep and choat as he does his thrust.
Choad to deflect before being able to come down on top of the pole. Sounds like the pole has already been taken down a notch?
---Our mechanics "bypass the shoulder" just fine and redirect to the ground...with a secure grip.
If you say so.
This means reaction force is coming straight back to your elbow and is not being redirected downward. Your anterior deltoid will be strongly engaged to counter this force.
---And exactly why would you think that? The pole is horizontal, the elbow is down and tucked into the body.
As you show it, your forearm is also horizontal.
Why would this be any different than doing the thrust at shoulder level?
Because then the forearm is angled downward.
If you are trying to connect with the hip and back leg with the thrust, doesn't it make more sense to have the pole a bit lower than way up at shoulder height? Its just better biomechanics and a more direct connection that way.
No. It's the elbow that's important. Just like you can punch at any level, but the elbow is kept down below wrist and shoulder. Triangles, man.
---Just how is the wrist at all straight during the thrust, regardless of how you are gripping the pole?
An anatomically straight wrist will have the hand tilted back slightly. This is only achieved while keeping the elbow low when you rotate the hand toward supination as TY did, without over-rotating.
If your hand is palm up, the pressure is relieved by flaring the elbow outward.
If you are over-rotating. As I keep repeating, don't over-rotate!
If your hand is palm down, the pressure is relieved by tucking the elbow in.
And this bends and twists your wrist, just like the image I snapped from your video. If thrusting any higher it will be your wrist bearing the force back on it. Do you do any heavy target practice, or just forms and two-man drills?
---I don't know what you are seeing, but my elbow is down and not flared out. You have caught me just before completing the thrust. At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the level of the pole.
At no point was your forearm angled downward like TY did.
wckf92
12-14-2016, 06:06 AM
0:16 Yaaa! Wow. Ok. hahaha
How about Juany on the other forum who just said he prefers Kali to BJD because their "defang the snake" philosophy, taking out the limbs, makes more sense than having to go "all the way" through their guard.
If that's what he learned as BJD, it's suicidal and he's right to learn something else.
Funny, because "defang the snake" also describes YM's BJD strategy, but obviously Cheung didn't get that in his secret closed-door training sessions. Hmm...yeah...dunno about defanging a snake or Kali whatever, but I was taught that the forward-most hand/fingers are ripe targets for slicing/dicing/cutting/severing in WC BJD. Maybe Juany has yet to learn BJD?
I've always wondered why some wc people look outside of their wc, to kali/fma arts to 'learn footwork' and other things.
He started at age 17 and did bei-mo to roughly age 24, around the time YM's teaching slowed down before retirement a couple years later. He always analyzed his experience with YM afterward.
Cool thx.
I was taught that the forward-most hand/fingers are ripe targets for slicing/dicing/cutting/severing in WC BJD.
Correct. You can't just go in with LSJC when the opponent has a knife too. Unlike a spent punch, it can still cut you on the way back, or at any time.
I've always wondered why some wc people look outside of their wc, to kali/fma arts to 'learn footwork' and other things.
Right. BJD is highly mobile and manages distance very well. Knife sparring is good for developing awareness of danger. Better learn to move yer ass!
As you show it, your forearm is also horizontal.
---No its not! I've already pointed out that your picture capture is "in progress." At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the pole. Is it your life goal to turn everything into an argument?
Because then the forearm is angled downward.
---And I have stated more than once that the elbow is also angled downward with the thrust I am describing.....and the pole is closer to the hip and therefore in better biomechanical connection.
No. It's the elbow that's important. Just like you can punch at any level, but the elbow is kept down below wrist and shoulder. Triangles, man.
---And....again...the elbow is down. The triangle is still there.
An anatomically straight wrist will have the hand tilted back slightly. This is only achieved while keeping the elbow low when you rotate the hand toward supination as TY did, without over-rotating.
---I'll say again, since you glossed over it. Gripping the end of a pole with the elbow bent at 90 degrees in no way approaches a "straight wrist." The wrist is bent. That is just an anatomical fact. Flaring the elbow outward reduces some of this bend of the wrist when the grip is palm up, and tucking the elbow in reduces some of this bend with the grip is palm down. Again, just an anatomical fact. Holding the grip half-way between supination and pronation relieves some of the pressure from the bend of the wrist, at the cost of a less secure grip compared to being completely palm down. If you are willing to accept that and don't see it as an issue, that's fine with me. But you seem to keep trying to argue against basic biomechanics here. Again, is it your goal to turn every discussion into an argument?
And this bends and twists your wrist, just like the image I snapped from your video. If thrusting any higher it will be your wrist bearing the force back on it. Do you do any heavy target practice, or just forms and two-man drills?
---What? Tucking the elbow in reduces the bend in the wrist when the grip is palm down. It isn't "bent" or "twisted" anymore than having your grip half-way between as you are talking about. During any thrust the wrist is going to have to bear some of the force regardless of how you are gripping. Turning it fully palm down vs. half-way between makes no difference in that regard. Again, why are you trying so hard to turn this into an argument?
guy b.
12-14-2016, 05:15 PM
As you show it, your forearm is also horizontal.
---No its not! I've already pointed out that your picture capture is "in progress." At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the pole. Is it your life goal to turn everything into an argument?
Because then the forearm is angled downward.
---And I have stated more than once that the elbow is also angled downward with the thrust I am describing.....and the pole is closer to the hip and therefore in better biomechanical connection.
No. It's the elbow that's important. Just like you can punch at any level, but the elbow is kept down below wrist and shoulder. Triangles, man.
---And....again...the elbow is down. The triangle is still there.
Hi KPM, your elbow isn't down in the thrusts you show in this clip, and force isn't directed into your hip- rather it is out the back of your body. I'm not criticising per se, just pointing out what you show in this particular clip.
TY pole has always impressed me and I certainly like to watch the available clip of TY
An anatomically straight wrist will have the hand tilted back slightly. This is only achieved while keeping the elbow low when you rotate the hand toward supination as TY did, without over-rotating.
---I'll say again, since you glossed over it. Gripping the end of a pole with the elbow bent at 90 degrees in no way approaches a "straight wrist." The wrist is bent. That is just an anatomical fact. Flaring the elbow outward reduces some of this bend of the wrist when the grip is palm up, and tucking the elbow in reduces some of this bend with the grip is palm down. Again, just an anatomical fact. Holding the grip half-way between supination and pronation relieves some of the pressure from the bend of the wrist, at the cost of a less secure grip compared to being completely palm down. If you are willing to accept that and don't see it as an issue, that's fine with me. But you seem to keep trying to argue against basic biomechanics here. Again, is it your goal to turn every discussion into an argument?
And this bends and twists your wrist, just like the image I snapped from your video. If thrusting any higher it will be your wrist bearing the force back on it. Do you do any heavy target practice, or just forms and two-man drills?
---What? Tucking the elbow in reduces the bend in the wrist when the grip is palm down. It isn't "bent" or "twisted" anymore than having your grip half-way between as you are talking about. During any thrust the wrist is going to have to bear some of the force regardless of how you are gripping. Turning it fully palm down vs. half-way between makes no difference in that regard. Again, why are you trying so hard to turn this into an argument?
Isn't the clip kind of an attempt to start an argument? You seem to be criticising as "YM pole" people who don't have YM pole.
I'm not sure I even agree with LFJ about HKM. So little material is available, but what is there is not all that encouraging. And his available reps do not inspire confidence in terms of what they say. He has to be one of the better candidates though I agree. WSL is the only definite one for me.
guy b.
12-14-2016, 05:25 PM
Heh, this empty forum feels quite nice compared to the insanity of MT
Some great stuff in the archives here too.
As you show it, your forearm is also horizontal.
---No its not! I've already pointed out that your picture capture is "in progress." At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the pole.
I tried to get it at the very end of the thrust. Your forearm was horizontal the entire time. Even when pausing the thrust to talk about the position of the pole, and when doing the action several times. Never once was your forearm angled downward.
---And I have stated more than once that the elbow is also angled downward with the thrust I am describing.....and the pole is closer to the hip and therefore in better biomechanical connection.
Maybe you can grab a still from your video to show this then, since mine wasn't good enough.
On most of your thrusts, your elbow was actually behind your rear hip at full extension. This is where your thrust stopped. And the elbow is in line with the pole, directing force back to nothing. There is no hip connection this way. It's shoulder countering the reaction force.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/LFJ3/KPMcheung2_zpsia1ujrev.png
Compared to this; TY's elbow is just as low, if not actually lower, but also in front of the hip with the forearm angled downward perfectly toward the hip and rear foot. Elbow-hip-foot connection obvious.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/LFJ3/TYcheung2_zpstshc2hj0.png
An anatomically straight wrist will have the hand tilted back slightly. This is only achieved while keeping the elbow low when you rotate the hand toward supination as TY did, without over-rotating.
---I'll say again, since you glossed over it. Gripping the end of a pole with the elbow bent at 90 degrees in no way approaches a "straight wrist." The wrist is bent. That is just an anatomical fact.
Because you haven't learned to hold the pole properly.
And this bends and twists your wrist, just like the image I snapped from your video. If thrusting any higher it will be your wrist bearing the force back on it. Do you do any heavy target practice, or just forms and two-man drills?
---What? Tucking the elbow in reduces the bend in the wrist when the grip is palm down. It isn't "bent" or "twisted" anymore than having your grip half-way between as you are talking about.
Look at your wrist compared to TY's. Yours is bent and twisted already quite severely. If you were to thrust at the level he is with your hand orientation and elbow down, the bend and twist would be even worse.
TY's arm is rotated under and the hand tilted back naturally. There is no awkward bend or twist, no strain when receiving force.
During any thrust the wrist is going to have to bear some of the force regardless of how you are gripping. Turning it fully palm down vs. half-way between makes no difference in that regard.
It certainly does when you're hitting heavy targets with a lot of force. It will cause severe strain on an awkwardly bent and twisted wrist.
With the wrist kept as TY does, it is strong and able to transfer force down to the elbow, hip, and foot. As you show you it (horizontal forearm, elbow behind hip, wrist bent and twisted), it's the wrist and shoulder countering the force.
If all you're doing is the form and two-man drills, you won't realize this.
A good tool for heavy target practice is something like a makiwara board set up on a weighted prowler sled. If your wrist is in a vulnerable position you will feel it immediately and if you are to deliver any penetrating force, you will learn to rotate on your thrust.
Again, why are you trying so hard to turn this into an argument?
Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are just trying to argue. I have explained technical reasons why I disagree with you here.
I actually like TY pole. It's a great method. I don't personally prefer it to YM pole, because I value simplicity, but I see no problem with it.
I disagree with the grip and thrust method you show, but fortunately when I view TY perform it, he does it correctly. So, I am relieved.
Isn't the clip kind of an attempt to start an argument? You seem to be criticising as "YM pole" people who don't have YM pole.
It's pointing out differences and saying they are bad because such and such a reason. I agree with all of the points though, because they don't represent YM pole and are functional errors.
I'm not sure I even agree with LFJ about HKM. So little material is available, but what is there is not all that encouraging. And his available reps do not inspire confidence in terms of what they say. He has to be one of the better candidates though I agree. WSL is the only definite one for me.
No, I'm still with you. Best likely candidate is all, but as I've not seen HKM's stuff from him directly, it's hard to say. AF, for example, added a lot of embellishments. If HKM was a competent teacher and endorses the robotic arm-chasing tactics his lineage can be seen teaching, though, like "close the gap with bong-sau", then he's off the team. lol
Heh, this empty forum feels quite nice compared to the insanity of MT
Some great stuff in the archives here too.
Really? You do know what happened here, don't you? A small group of guys....mostly made up of WSLPB people...... turned every thread into an argument and essentially made this a very unpleasant place. The moderators would do nothing about it. Sound familiar? So people went elsewhere. Gene Ching laughed it off, but this forum all but died because of one group of people.
I tried to get it at the very end of the thrust. Your forearm was horizontal the entire time. Even when pausing the thrust to talk about the position of the pole, and when doing the action several times. Never once was your forearm angled downward.
---The elbow is angled downward. The lats are engaged. The force is directed into the rear leg because I DO do resistance training and I can feel it. I assure you that there is nothing wrong with my thrust with the pole. I do it exactly as my Sifu taught me to do it. Whether or not the forearm is in line with the pole is irrelevant when the lats are engaged properly. Holding the pole lower than shoulder height is naturally going to put the forearm closer to parallel to the pole. But the elbow is still inward and the lats engaged.
Maybe you can grab a still from your video to show this then, since mine wasn't good enough.
---I tell you what....why don't you post a video of yourself....then you can start criticizing mine!
Because you haven't learned to hold the pole properly.
---:rolleyes: A discussion is supposed to be an exchange of information and ideas. I am sharing information that I learned directly from my Sifu. I have worked the pole extensively and I assure you that I have discovered the most secure grip that directs force into the ground the best and protects the wrist the best. And what my Sifu taught makes perfect sense biomechanically. Now, as soon as you start posting still shots of Tang Yik over and over....that is no longer an exchange of information. That's trying to win an argument. When you start posting stills of me from my video over and over to criticize what I am doing despite my repeated explanations...that is no longer an exchange of information. That is trying to win an argument.
---Trying to deal with the BS from you and Guy was what got me temporarily banned on the other forum. Now you follow me here and once again turn a discussion into an argument. Dude, you really need to get a life, or get some therapy, or something!!! :cool:
---The elbow is angled downward.
Clearly not, but alright.
The lats are engaged.
In what?
The force is directed into the rear leg because I DO do resistance training and I can feel it.
Of course you will feel the leg. You're standing on it. Doesn't mean you are efficiently redirecting force through it.
I assure you that there is nothing wrong with my thrust with the pole. I do it exactly as my Sifu taught me to do it.
But not the same as your Sigung, Tang Yik, or in a way that enables maximum power at minimum risk of self-injury.
Holding the pole lower than shoulder height is naturally going to put the forearm closer to parallel to the pole. But the elbow is still inward and the lats engaged.
So, thrust higher like TY. The elbow should be in and down.
---I tell you what....why don't you post a video of yourself....then you can start criticizing mine!
You posted your video to criticize YM pole in comparison to your method. Anyone is allowed to comment on what you freely post to the internet. Don't like it, don't post it.
Now, as soon as you start posting still shots of Tang Yik over and over....that is no longer an exchange of information.
It was posted precisely in order to exchange information. You didn't even know he performed the thrust that way!
When you start posting stills of me from my video over and over to criticize what I am doing despite my repeated explanations...that is no longer an exchange of information.
None of your explanations explained anything. You just claimed your elbow is angled downward when it's clearly not. I took the still to show that it's quite different from TY's method in several major ways, and exchanged information on the technical pros and cons between the two.
---Trying to deal with the BS from you and Guy was what got me temporarily banned on the other forum. Now you follow me here and once again turn a discussion into an argument. Dude, you really need to get a life, or get some therapy, or something!!! :cool:
Or, you could relax, consider the information I've shared, especially why TY agrees with me and not you, test out what I've explained and maybe... learn something?
If you will not even consider the information, which I think you should since you weren't even aware TY's own thrust method differs from yours, then keep on following what Sifu says, but don't get all bent out of shape with me when I kindly point it out for you.
"kindly"? :rolleyes: Dude, get a life. I'm done with your BS.
"kindly"? :rolleyes:
No? Have I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry.
guy b.
12-15-2016, 12:27 PM
It's pointing out differences and saying they are bad because such and such a reason. I agree with all of the points though, because they don't represent YM pole and are functional errors.
No, I'm still with you. Best likely candidate is all, but as I've not seen HKM's stuff from him directly, it's hard to say. AF, for example, added a lot of embellishments. If HKM was a competent teacher and endorses the robotic arm-chasing tactics his lineage can be seen teaching, though, like "close the gap with bong-sau", then he's off the team. lol
It's a puzzle, that's for sure. Have you ever encountered any HKM person? Can't say I ever have. It's probably the one group I am genuinely curious about, beside WSL
guy b.
12-15-2016, 12:32 PM
I tried to get it at the very end of the thrust. Your forearm was horizontal the entire time. Even when pausing the thrust to talk about the position of the pole, and when doing the action several times. Never once was your forearm angled downward.
---The elbow is angled downward. The lats are engaged. The force is directed into the rear leg because I DO do resistance training and I can feel it. I assure you that there is nothing wrong with my thrust with the pole. I do it exactly as my Sifu taught me to do it. Whether or not the forearm is in line with the pole is irrelevant when the lats are engaged properly. Holding the pole lower than shoulder height is naturally going to put the forearm closer to parallel to the pole. But the elbow is still inward and the lats engaged.
Hi KPM. Really I don't think LFJ is trying to be argumentative here. But your elbow IS horizontal and protruding out the back, and there isn't a line of force through hip to back foot, in this particular clip. It is just a matter of say what you see, not a decision on the relevance of everything you have to say or show.
Like LFJ, I am very impressed by TY pole
I think you are a proud guy and it is difficult for us to talk because of previous arguments. But really, what harm in taking a little help when offered? Life is too short to be defensive
boxerbilly
12-15-2016, 01:18 PM
This has been one of the most informative threads I have viewed here in recent times. Thank you all.
Hi KPM. Really I don't think LFJ is trying to be argumentative here. But your elbow IS horizontal and protruding out the back, and there isn't a line of force through hip to back foot, in this particular clip. It is just a matter of say what you see, not a decision on the relevance of everything you have to say or show.
Like LFJ, I am very impressed by TY pole
I think you are a proud guy and it is difficult for us to talk because of previous arguments. But really, what harm in taking a little help when offered? Life is too short to be defensive
There was a lot more to it than that. Completely denying the biomechanical explanations about the grips......nit-picking what you think you see in a video rather than believing my explanation.....reposting a still of Tang Yik over and over in an attempt to say I learned the rear hand grip wrong (despite being how my sifu teaches it....which implies that my Sifu, who is now Tang Yik's main representative, also learned it wrong).....you guys have such a sense of superiority that you can't even carry on a normal conversation with anyone that may have a little different perspective than yours. THAT'S why "it is difficult for us to talk." You turn everything into an argument. That has been proven over and over again!
Completely denying the biomechanical explanations about the grips......nit-picking what you think you see in a video rather than believing my explanation.....
Hard to just believe what you say when your video shows something else, and knowing how the body works.
reposting a still of Tang Yik over and over in an attempt to say I learned the rear hand grip wrong (despite being how my sifu teaches it....which implies that my Sifu, who is now Tang Yik's main representative, also learned it wrong).....
It is undeniably different from the way you guys do it.
Maybe your Sifu changed the method to what he felt was more secure. Might be something for you to ask next time.
All I know is that TY performs it exactly like the YM method. He does the action numerous times on the two available clips, and does it the way I described every single time.
you guys have such a sense of superiority that you can't even carry on a normal conversation with anyone that may have a little different perspective than yours.
I would not feel qualified to comment on the rest of the TY pole system. I felt confident in this one action, though, because it is exactly the same as in the YM system I train.
Your perspective is different than mine on this because your pole thrust method differs from TY's. Otherwise we would be in agreement with just about everything in your video.
I'd be interested in anything further you have to share on the TY pole system. And you won't have to worry about anything from me, because most of the rest of it differs quite a bit from the YM system.
guy b.
12-21-2016, 06:13 PM
Anyone know if there are any other teachers of Tang Yik pole around?
Anyone know if there are any other teachers of Tang Yik pole around?
I think Michael Tang is the sole inheritor.
By the way, you've exceeded your stored PM quota. I have emailed you.
guy b.
12-22-2016, 01:23 AM
I think Michael Tang is the sole inheritor.
By the way, you've exceeded your stored PM quota. I have emailed you.
I have deleted some messages but nothing has come through from you. Can you re-send please?
I have deleted some messages but nothing has come through from you. Can you re-send please?
Check personal email, not PM here.
guy b.
12-22-2016, 03:49 AM
Ah, thanks, I see it now. Will respond later today, need to do some Christmas stuff now
Guy
Anyone know if there are any other teachers of Tang Yik pole around?
To my knowledge, there is Vincent Tso, who has several students and Derek Roszanky(dont know if I spell his name correctly) but I dont know
whom of them still teaches openly.
They are all relativly low key and private about there stuff.
Best regards,
Xian
wingchun.com
01-14-2017, 03:01 AM
"We" is any observant people with half a brain. The majority of BJD material out there is insane and could not have come from YM. And, by all accounts, YM only taught the knives in any extent to at most 4 people.
As for who they are, obviously WSL received the entire form and fighting strategy, but he didn't want to embarrass anyone by naming the others.
But, we can conclude likely candidates based on time spent with YM and available material to examine.
The only other one besides WSL with anything remotely resembling usefulness and a coherent form is HKM. These are the only two guys that appear to have learned the whole system from YM. I've also heard HKM didn't finish the form before YM stopped teaching, and picked up the last section from WSL. But, saying this will only tick Joy off, so never mind.
The only other person who spent enough time with YM is CST, who was always honest about coming up with ideas himself (even for SNT), and said he only learned individual techniques, not a whole knife form. It can be seen from his knife video that he doesn't really know what he's doing with it (no awareness of knife strategy).
I'm not sure who the alleged 4th person is, though I heard it was someone who stopped training(?). I've not seen anyone else doing anything non-suicidal with the knives. Most others picked up a bit from WSL, or reverse engineered, or frankly pulled moves right out of their "4th point of contact".
Evidently. As KPM has discovered, most YM lineage pole work is riddled with errors.
Indeed, very very few people ever learned YM's VT system in full. Honestly, it looks like only 2.
You are forgetting Leung Sheung and Lok Yu. I would assume Yip Bo Ching also.
You are forgetting Leung Sheung and Lok Yu. I would assume Yip Bo Ching also.
I'm not forgetting them and I wouldn't assume that.
wingchun.com
01-15-2017, 07:02 PM
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