Let's talk about PHONY KUNG FU

[Zui Quan]

In brazil,we have THOUSANDS of phony masters of all kinds martial arts and,like always,kung fu is the worst victim of this.

For example,we have this huge "McDojo" enterprise that says they teach "ancient oriental knowledge from 5000 thousand years" that originated from argentina called PAKUA (no,they don't teach baguazhang).others would the TSKF kung fu school were their praying mantis style has questionable origins and morally questionable marketing strategies and "luohan institute" were STARTED as a phony kung fu school,but,it got certain credibility when they got contacts with shaolin master shi deyang.

How is the situation of phony kung fu and martial arts in your home country?

[PalmStriker]

Hello Zui Quan, Welcome to the forum! I think you may find any old school Kung fu in Brazil taking a low profile back seat in your country because of the popularity of Brazilian Jujitsu and Capoeira. Is Karate and the Korean Arts represented and taught in Brazil by Japanese and Korean Masters? Here in the United States you will see (initially from migration) more TCMA and traditional Japanese and Korean Arts available taught by lineage family members where authenticity has been preserved. Once you promote MA for sport and commercial enterprise you may lose some of the purport and essence of the original styles. There are ways to cross-reference what is being taught so that you will know if you are learning traditional lineage art-form. Most students will not care whether or not they are learning traditional TCMA or Bung bu bu.

[uki]

phony is as phony does. :D

[rett2]

Authentic styles are just made-up (or "phony") styles that have been around long enough.

In some cultures creative people have had to mask their inventions behind some ancient tradition because it would be arrogant to claim they made it up themselves. Phony? Maybe, maybe not. Just how things are done sometimes.

So if a "phony" school seems good and the the teachers are able and respectable people, why worry about it? And if you find cultish power-games, nonsense and superstition in an authentic school, maybe it's better to avoid it. Look for what's really important. Just 2¢

[Zui Quan]

Authentic styles are just made-up (or "phony") styles that have been around long enough.

In some cultures creative people have had to mask their inventions behind some ancient tradition because it would be arrogant to claim they made it up themselves. Phony? Maybe, maybe not. Just how things are done sometimes.

So if a "phony" school seems good and the the teachers are able and respectable people, why worry about it? And if you find cultish power-games, nonsense and superstition in an authentic school, maybe it's better to avoid it. Look for what's really important. Just 2¢

That is the problem,though.In "authentic" styles,the creators tend to actually have knowledge and experience in fighting techniques,independant of the "legends" of their style or what they believe. In most phony schools,they teachers don't have that,let alone being "able" and "respected" people. Remember ashida kim? The phonys here are on his level,just not as rich or famous....

[uki]

Authentic styles are just made-up (or "phony") styles that have been around long enough.

In some cultures creative people have had to mask their inventions behind some ancient tradition because it would be arrogant to claim they made it up themselves. Phony? Maybe, maybe not. Just how things are done sometimes.

So if a "phony" school seems good and the the teachers are able and respectable people, why worry about it? And if you find cultish power-games, nonsense and superstition in an authentic school, maybe it's better to avoid it. Look for what's really important. Just 2¢depending on which economy you are embracing, 2 cents goes a long way...

[bawang]

phony kung fu is what westterners want.

[Lucas]

Phön Yi is the loud intention style of future kung fu whereby one disrupts their enemies vibrational structure though precise octave projection. I had a dream once....

[uki]

Phön Yi is the loud intention style of future kung fu whereby one disrupts their enemies vibrational structure though precise octave projection. I had a dream once....hahaha... the enemy is powerless. LOL :D


phony kung fu is what westterners want.no... that is what you want westerners to want... your mom is very weak. :p

[wiz cool c]

phony kung fu is what westterners want.



dude you are clueless. the foreigners are the one's that spend all there free time in places like this chatting and having discussion about kung fu and practicing it as if it was a religion. in china in the big cities it goes like this. you might find a school hidden somewhere that teaches little children, summertime may have full kids classes. in the parks you can find elderly people doing tai chi early in the morning in small groups. adults do not have the time for kung fu, they are busy earning a living for their family and very little free time. once in a while some very wealthy business man may have this hobby ,but even then he wont train daily like kung fu practitioners do in the states.

people don't have the time, or the need to do kung fu in china. the one's who do kung fu do it as a career. like before in Beijing I trained at a shuai Jiao school where the students were full time.and now in Songshan Shaolin where the students live at the schools. hopefully when they graduate from the program they can go on to be coaches or soldiers usually. they usually come from a poor families and poor village and don't have the money or capability to get a good education, so their parents send them to learn Wu Shu.

you may be surprised to know that the passion is not always there in these full time students, like it is for those who choose to study it with their own free will.

[Jimbo]

How is the situation of phony kung fu and martial arts in your home country?

In the city I live in, there is a variety of KF styles, but I can't say I'm aware of any phony kung fu. Regarding Chinese styles alone, AFAIK there is: CLF, Taiji (Yang, Chen, etc.), Xingyi, N. Mantis, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Bagua, etc. There used to be a very good school of Lung Ying (Dragon), Mok Gar, and Liuhebafa, but the teacher retired and moved away. There are at least a couple of modern wushu academies here, and I recently noticed a new Shaolin academy. There may be other Chinese styles, but since I no longer check out MA schools and rarely mix in the MA world anymore, I wouldn't know.

There's plenty of legitimate kung fu, and I'm not aware of any 'phony' kung fu around here. For the most part, like most of the karate schools now, it's all low-key. This city is a big MMA/BJJ mecca. That's what's visible mostly. I think that phony kung fu would be a tough sell.

For a short while there were some Oom Yung Doe schools which were a definite scam (and a cult). They are long gone. In their ads they claimed to teach a combination of arts that included kung fu.

I have a younger female cousin who is a black belt in something called "Shaolin Kenpo", but that is a modern Americanized, hybridized karate style (basically a substyle of Kenpo karate) which, IMO and in spite of the name, couldn't really pass itself off as traditional Chinese kung fu if it tried to. The name itself is weird as it's both Chinese (Shaolin) and Japanese (Kenpo). Kind of like calling a style 'Karate chuan/quan'. But she seems pretty good at it, so I wouldn't consider it a phony MA, just not a traditional Chinese or Japanese style.

[bawang]

no... that is what you want westerners to want... your mom is very weak. :p

ok then why dont u train some real kung fu instead of doing fukin juggling

dude you are clueless. the foreigners are the one's that spend all there free time in places like this chatting and having discussion about kung fu and practicing it as if it was a religion. in china in the big cities it goes like this. you might find a school hidden somewhere that teaches little children, summertime may have full kids classes. in the parks you can find elderly people doing tai chi early in the morning in small groups. adults do not have the time for kung fu, they are busy earning a living for their family and very little free time. once in a while some very wealthy business man may have this hobby ,but even then he wont train daily like kung fu practitioners do in the states.

people don't have the time, or the need to do kung fu in china. the one's who do kung fu do it as a career. like before in Beijing I trained at a shuai Jiao school where the students were full time.and now in Songshan Shaolin where the students live at the schools. hopefully when they graduate from the program they can go on to be coaches or soldiers usually. they usually come from a poor families and poor village and don't have the money or capability to get a good education, so their parents send them to learn Wu Shu.

you may be surprised to know that the passion is not always there in these full time students, like it is for those who choose to study it with their own free will.

you dont have the social and networking skills to find real kung fu people in china and youre a racist sexpat.

[wiz cool c]

the only secret is sweat my friend.

[David Jamieson]

One mark of a Kung Fu man is to extend courtesy regardless if he thinks his conversation mate is a fool.

That's not phony. :)

Be kind to each other.

Signed: the jerk moderator.

[Subitai]

The messed up part is that there is a bit of truth to Bawangs statement. Although I wouldn't just limit it to Westerners only.

By that I mean, there are always those groups of people who want the WOO WOO and fantasy of martial arts but not really wanting to do the hard work or to risk getting hurt by actually fighting.

My personal peeve is all the videos out there for IMA. The master barely moves his hand and the students are jumping. We've all seen them BUT STILL, in the clear evidence of that...students persist in wanting that over hard work. Brainwashing or are they really that stupid???


If you kinda look at it in a cyclical way.

*The way things were >>>>>>>

MMA >>>>>>>

*They way things used to be either by (Blow-back) or willful ignorance

There are always those who prefer the WOO WOO though. It kinda makes sense, not everyone can or will fight. There's pain involved and who likes that. So it's more social I think.

Wiz cool is right too, sweat...albeit the right way. :)

[Jimbo]

In Taiwan, my Mantis teacher, myself and some of my classmates once stayed after a 1991 CMA tournament ended to watch a qigong program/showcase that was to be held in the same arena. The whole atmosphere changed; a new audience arrived. A few of the participants from the tournament also stayed to check it out.

One by one, different masters went on the floor to demo to New Age music. When one guest master, an older, bearded man in a suit from Japan proclaimed he would send his chi up into the audience, many people in the stands started panting, shaking, convulsing, and some even fell and writhed on the floor like they were having seizures (or sex with an invisible partner). Some people started screaming and mumbling nonsensical gibberish. I felt absolutely nothing. My teacher was ****ed off by all of this. He started videotaping people around us who were acting weird, because he felt that nobody would believe it otherwise.

There was also a teacher in a park who claimed he could put a force field around himself for protection and knock people 30 feet away by lightly touching or without physical contact, but that it only worked against those who believed. I didn't believe.

I don't know if those things are still a thing in Taiwan, as I left there 24 years ago. But I saw more of that over there than in the U.S. I think those types of demos were big in China, too. People who wanted special abilities but didn't want to develop real kung fu through hard work and eating bitter. Or simply people with "issues".

I am open to the possibility of a lot of things in this world, but I also have a very good B.S. meter. None of the above-mentioned things passed my B.S. meter.

For a good example of such a demo in the U.S., check out the demo starting from about 49:08:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EilinKU4Bw8&sns=em

[rett2]

For a good example of such a demo in the U.S., check out the demo starting from about 49:08:


good grief! :o

[PalmStriker]

:) Dude keeps coming back for more... Amazing.

[bawang]

In Taiwan, my Mantis teacher, myself and some of my classmates once stayed after a 1991 CMA tournament ended to watch a qigong program/showcase that was to be held in the same arena. The whole atmosphere changed; a new audience arrived. A few of the participants from the tournament also stayed to check it out.

One by one, different masters went on the floor to demo to New Age music. When one guest master, an older, bearded man in a suit from Japan proclaimed he would send his chi up into the audience, many people in the stands started panting, shaking, convulsing, and some even fell and writhed on the floor like they were having seizures (or sex with an invisible partner). Some people started screaming and mumbling nonsensical gibberish. I felt absolutely nothing. My teacher was ****ed off by all of this. He started videotaping people around us who were acting weird, because he felt that nobody would believe it otherwise.

There was also a teacher in a park who claimed he could put a force field around himself for protection and knock people 30 feet away by lightly touching or without physical contact, but that it only worked against those who believed. I didn't believe.

I don't know if those things are still a thing in Taiwan, as I left there 24 years ago. But I saw more of that over there than in the U.S. I think those types of demos were big in China, too. People who wanted special abilities but didn't want to develop real kung fu through hard work and eating bitter. Or simply people with "issues".

I am open to the possibility of a lot of things in this world, but I also have a very good B.S. meter. None of the above-mentioned things passed my B.S. meter.

For a good example of such a demo in the U.S., check out the demo starting from about 49:08:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EilinKU4Bw8&sns=em
that whole hour was pretty bad except for like 3 people

[Jimbo]

that whole hour was pretty bad except for like 3 people

My favorite performer of that show is Frank Yee at 53:53.

[mrshungkuen]

In brazil,we have THOUSANDS of phony masters of all kinds martial arts and,like always,kung fu is the worst victim of this.

For example,we have this huge "McDojo" enterprise that says they teach "ancient oriental knowledge from 5000 thousand years" that originated from argentina called PAKUA (no,they don't teach baguazhang).others would the TSKF kung fu school were their praying mantis style has questionable origins and morally questionable marketing strategies and "luohan institute" were STARTED as a phony kung fu school,but,it got certain credibility when they got contacts with shaolin master shi deyang.

How is the situation of phony kung fu and martial arts in your home country?

With much of Chinese martial arts lineages can not always be traced. Some know one or 2 instructors in the lineage and after that it is "China". Many bad Chinese teachers do also exist. But in a way, what is bad, what is good? If a person likes it and becomes happy of it it is real enough.

Nowadays more and more online kungfu courses to learn kungfu. I saw a 3 animal kungfu course, praying mantis courses, 5 animal kungfu courses and more.

If you learn and you like it then it is okay! Stay critical about several online courses and find a real teacher.

[macpark]

Nowadays more and more online kungfu courses to learn kungfu. I saw a 3 animal kungfu course, praying mantis courses, 5 animal kungfu courses and more.

If you learn and you like it then it is okay! Stay critical about several online courses and find a real teacher.

These "learn kung fu / martial arts online" courses are popping up everywhere. I school near me now does it with gratings via skype. This just sounds crazy to me. Watching videos of martial arts is fine as long as then a person can correct you in IN PERSON. You cant do this via video sorry. We are gonna have all these 20 years old Kung Fu masters and Karate black belts running around in the next few years who have never met another martial artist or even been hit before...

[mrshungkuen]

These "learn kung fu / martial arts online" courses are popping up everywhere. I school near me now does it with gratings via skype. This just sounds crazy to me. Watching videos of martial arts is fine as long as then a person can correct you in IN PERSON. You cant do this via video sorry. We are gonna have all these 20 years old Kung Fu masters and Karate black belts running around in the next few years who have never met another martial artist or even been hit before...

I never thought about video learning a whole system. Ofcourse i use some videos as reference for forms that i have learned as a back up.

Do you considder video learning totally useless and ineffective?

[GeneChing]

Do you considder video learning totally useless and ineffective?

I don't consider any learning totally useless and ineffective. Besides, our primary sponsor MartialArtsMart.com sells instructional videos (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-video.html). That's part of what pays to keep the lights on here at the KungFuMagazine.com forum. ;)

[macpark]

I never thought about video learning a whole system. Ofcourse i use some videos as reference for forms that i have learned as a back up.

Do you considder video learning totally useless and ineffective?


No i use video for helping me remember forms and being able to watch my sifu's exact hand position etc. It allows me to progress with certain aspects faster. But as the ONLY way to train from beginner through the belts is just crazy. If I wasnt practicing with other people I would be nowhere. Sure my forms might be fine but the rest a mess. Video has its place but its not a viable way to train full time like many places now offer. "learn from home".

Interestingly my Grandmaster was once asked about videoing himself doing forms etc for training. "if you are having trouble remembering then you should train more". We now use video for students as reference and its great but I see his point lol. IN an ideal world I would train 5 days a week at class ;)

[macpark]

I don't consider any learning totally useless and ineffective. Besides, our primary sponsor MartialArtsMart.com sells instructional videos (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-video.html). That's part of what pays to keep the lights on here at the KungFuMagazine.com forum. ;)


Vids are a great reference. But im more talking about "Train online" schools. I wont post a link to one in my area out of respect to them but if you look around you will find them.

[GeneChing]

Vids are a great reference. But im more talking about "Train online" schools.

According to legend, the ancients learned from watching snakes and cranes, even bugs like mantids. They learned from dreams and divine visions. Videos aren't nearly as romantic, nor is it in any way superior to transmission from 'warm hand to warm hand' but I never discount anything completely.

My late Master Wing Lam (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1419) had a few video students that were really good (there were lousy ones too, just like in most any open door school). Some people lack the resources due to finances or geography, but that doesn't mean they lack spirit and dedication. Personally, I've tried to learn off video, just for the exercise of it. I failed, but I'm spoiled here because there's so many masters in my area. However, I have seen other cases that succeeded. Sure, there's some sucky online courses, but it's really about the student with online or video training. They have to apply themselves a lot more. If they can do that, they just might succeed.

My main point is that you shouldn't just snub the possibility because it's totally within the realm of possibilities and some people have no other route. It's not the best route, but neither is being close minded about how to learn.

[macpark]

Fair enough Gene.

I guess they just arent for me me but I could see how people in areas that have no access it might be a good tool.