two man bone on bone shin drills

[wiz cool c]

would like to hear from others what are your opinions on bone on bone two man shin drills. effective, not effective. what styles use these drills and positive and negative aspects of doing such drills. thanks

[rett2]

no one's going to respond to a thread title that starts "two man bone on bone..." but ok

Used to bang shins together by mistake when we didn't have leg guards on. About as edifying as snorting wasabi.

Negative aspects? hurts. Positive aspects?...... it's like two fallow deer banging their antlers together. If you're into that. Maybe if you kill enough of your nerves it will stop hurting. Is that a positive aspect? Or maybe some grotesque mass of extra bone tissue will accrete and you can claim to have "iron leg"

[wiz cool c]

ok here is another question does anyone train in a system that does a drill where two people face each other and similar to arm banging but use their shin bones making contact?

[-N-]

Ok, here.

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/4/8/5/0/5/1485056822129672.gif

But it is not bone to bone contact. It is alongside of the bone and the back of the calf.

For over the bone, use sandbag or hard heavybag.

[wiz cool c]

thanks ,along side the bone I vaguely remember hearing that too. I should this drill to one of my kung fu partners and he insisted the shin bone be used. after all the bone is the part that needs to be toughened for contact, so wonder if any system actually uses the bone for this drill.

[-N-]

So what does your teacher say to do?

[-N-]

This training is more than just making your body tough. It trains relaxed body power and impact.

My sihing and I trained this before the beginning of every class. People could hear the impact of the strikes from 150 feet away.

Doc Fai Wong and Adam Hsui had classes next to ours at the park. Every time we did this training, their students would hear the noise across the park and stop to see what was going on.

[wiz cool c]

I learned many solo and two person conditioning drills from my old Shaolin teacher who was a disciple of Shi De Yang, and his specialty was Ying Qigong. that one drill he taught me once and I remember he mentioned use the side of the bone not directly on the shin bone. later I was working with one of my Present day Shifu's students and showed him the drill and he thought we should use the shin bone for contact, thinking about that it makes sense, cause in sparring with now kicks it is the shin bone that sometimes makes contact in blocking kicks and needs to be strengthened. I don't keep in touch with my old Shifu so was wondering if others have done this drill. obviously it is very light contact when connect with shin bone to shin bone.

[-N-]

Not much point to do light contact on bone with a partner.

Just do heavy contact on bone with sandbags.

When sparring, use hard against soft targets, and soft against hard targets.

[wiz cool c]

yes thanks for the advice N. I watched a few videos also mentions doing high reps on a heavy bag and sparring even with shin guards, which I insist we wear also helps conditioning.

[David Jamieson]

I've practiced these methods for decades now.

They work, they toughen you up and you will be less prone to being immediately injured when someone hits you.

The guy I train with now, we've been training together now for about 13 years.
With 3 star blocking I was about 10 years ahead of him when he picked it up again and man, he used to bruise really bad.
Now, after all this time and actually some years ago, the bruising got less and less and less and now, no bruising at all.

So, yes, slow and steady is the way and the star blocking arm and leg knocking drills are a benefit to anyone who practices martial arts.

[wiz cool c]

so David to be specific, you train making contact directly with the shins bone on bone?

[rett2]

Why waste precious partner-practice time on something you can do alone, like conditioning your shins?

Knocking shinbone against shinbone will imo detract from the kind of drills in -N-'s gif, or like in the below vid from around 1:10.

If you do shin conditioning by yourself with some kind of equipment you can use just the right balance of gentleness/force.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ3vuucCLZo

[wiz cool c]

the same can be said with any arm banging drill as well. common sense tells you, you can use a tree or post. doesn't feel quiet the same as working with a partner, and in a sparring match or real fight you will more likely be making contact with a human's shin bone not a tree, if using low kicks often.

[rett2]

the same can be said with any arm banging drill as well. common sense tells you, you can use a tree or post. doesn't feel quiet the same as working with a partner, and in a sparring match or real fight you will more likely be making contact with a human's shin bone not a tree, if using low kicks often.

The difference of course is that banging arms together isn't as painful and distracting as shinbone to shinbone impacts.

[wiz cool c]

The difference of course is that banging arms together isn't as painful and distracting as shinbone to shinbone impacts.

no pain no gain

[rett2]

no pain no gain

There is such a thing as stupid/futile pain. Cracking shinbones together during the kind of exercises linked by -N- would detract from the flow of that exercise. It's a pointless combination of things to do at the same time.

[wiz cool c]

There is such a thing as stupid/futile pain. Cracking shinbones together during the kind of exercises linked by -N- would detract from the flow of that exercise. It's a pointless combination of things to do at the same time.

not necessarily

[Orion Paximus]

We have our students do typical 3 star arms (forearm banging) and shins as well. While the jury may be out on bone toughening, this type of exercise offers more than just physical benefits. Mentally being able to deal with the continuous pain without losing your composer is a quality all good fighters need.

[wiz cool c]

We have our students do typical 3 star arms (forearm banging) and shins as well. While the jury may be out on bone toughening, this type of exercise offers more than just physical benefits. Mentally being able to deal with the continuous pain without losing your composer is a quality all good fighters need.

Orion, if you get a chance could you post a video of that shin conditioning drill.

[-N-]

that one drill he taught me once and I remember he mentioned use the side of the bone not directly on the shin bone. later I was working with one of my Present day Shifu's students and showed him the drill and he thought we should use the shin bone for contact, thinking about that it makes sense, cause in sparring with now kicks it is the shin bone that sometimes makes contact in blocking kicks and needs to be strengthened.

For the drill in the gif, we tell the students specifically not to hit the shin bones together. And don't hit the shoulder bones together for the chest/shoulder strike. And don't hit the elbows together for the tricep strike. And don't hit the hip bones together for the hip strike.

The point is to condition the fascia with relaxed sinking strikes, and learning how to deliver and rebound powerfully the force of the strikes. Most people are too rigid, don't use proper body mechanics, and try to do brute force smashing.

We don't do the conditioning for in case of accidental strikes. There's already too much intentional stuff that needs to be trained.

If you're kicking someone, you intentionally are going shin/instep/heel against calf/thigh/sciatic. So those areas have to be trained and conditioned to rebound force.

That said, we do have a different conditioning exercise where you kick straight forward into the other person's shin. That one is for toughening the shin, but it is not shin on shin contact.

To me, just do round house kicks on a hard heavy bag or sand bag. You have to kick the bag anyway, so you get your shin conditioning at the same time. Even the cheap 80lb Everlast bags are good. People complain that the bottom gets too hard because the sand sinks. But that's perfect for this application.

If you don't have a bag, you can put on shin pads and kick a steel pole. I've done that too.

[-N-]

Cracking shinbones together during the kind of exercises linked by -N- would detract from the flow of that exercise.

Yes, the flow is how you generate and rebound power. You can give and take heavy strikes, but it is not about brute force crashing.

[wiz cool c]

If you're kicking someone, you intentionally are going shin/instep/heel against calf/thigh/sciatic. So those areas have to be trained and conditioned to rebound force.




sure I know how to do a roundhouse kick, but in all my prier karate days and even kunf fu days when I was younger I would mostly kick waist and above. now because of the current training I'm doing, age and past injuries I find myself mostly doing low kicks in sparring. the shin on shin in blocking and being block is my concern. sure you can use shin guards which we do but seems the body should be able to handle such stress if used in real life. yes I have done some research and most Thai boxers say use a heavy bag and even sparring with shin guards helps. my main purpose in this thread is does anyone or has anyone seen the shin bone to shin bone contact drill.

the reason I'm asking specifically about this drill is a previous teacher showed it to me, but if I remember correctly he said to use the area to the right side of the bone. then in training with one of my Shifu's younger students he mentioned, we can hit the shin bones directly. this got me thinking what is the purpose of conditioning next to the bone when the shin bone is the area that needs conditioning if blocked by another shin bone, or being used to block a low roundhouse kick.

[rett2]

this got me thinking what is the purpose of conditioning next to the bone when the shin bone is the area that needs conditioning if blocked by another shin bone, or being used to block a low roundhouse kick.

It's a reasonable question, but at the risk of repeating myself I believe if what you want to do is to condition the shin for hard impacts (which amounts to two things, trying to get greater bone density there so it doesn't break, and killing nerves so you don't feel as much pain), then do just that in the most efficient way possible, not through a bunch of random knocks while ruining another type of partner drill. For example, you can bang away on your shins with a wooden stick all day.. gritting through the pain like a warrior, booyah. while sitting on the bus, whenever you want, and have it under control. And then you can use your partner training time to do something worthwhile.

[-N-]

in training with one of my Shifu's younger students he mentioned, we can hit the shin bones directly. this got me thinking what is the purpose of conditioning next to the bone when the shin bone is the area that needs conditioning if blocked by another shin bone, or being used to block a low roundhouse kick.

I would listen to the teacher before the younger student.

TCMA tends not to rely on direct force against force blocking like strip mall karate.

If you begin to take a hit, whether directly to the bone or not, you roll the contact so you don't take it all on one spot. You sink at the same time and use that force to redirect the attack vector into the ground.

It's more important to train the tangential intercept, rolling, and sinking than it is to train ability to take direct impact. The latter is last resort if your other skills fail.

We make fun of the students that take the brute crashing approach and say that at least they might survive until they have a chance to develop real skill.

Boxers know to roll with the punch. And rolling to dissipate force of impact is how parkour experts can jump off a roof and land on the ground without getting hurt.

[-N-]

Conditioning the area next to the bone is so you can use it for the initial intercept and use explosive tension and rolling to rebound/redirect the attack.

[wiz cool c]

all that theory is great but in reality if you are fighting or sparring with low kicks shins are bound to collide.

[bawang]

direct impact iron body is the only saving grace of Chinese kung fu.

[-N-]

all that theory is great but in reality if you are fighting or sparring with low kicks shins are bound to collide.

That's not theory.

That's a detailed explanation of how we train and apply it, since you were interested.

By the time you train all that and kick the sand bag, you won't care about occasional shin collisions.

Mantis probably uses low kick to the shin and legs more than any other system aside from Chujiao.

Our shin kick is the first kick we teach, and it's used in all kinds of attacks.

We get plenty of shin conditioning from sparring. Mantis is always kicking to the shin, and with shoes on.

[phantom]

Heavy impact bone on bone contact can contribute to bone cancer, and many muay thai fighters in thailand have died from bone cancer as a result of doing it. Granted, the extreme shin conditioning they do also contributes to deaths from bone cancer. I don't know about kicking the side of a person's shin, but I think it should at least be less risky than going bone on bone. If you want to insist on kicking the side of someone's shin,, I would stop if you or your partner fell pain, rest until it goes away. Once you can do it without pain, you can gradually increase how often you do it, but no more than 3 times a week, allowing for at least a day of rest in between. Not "Oh, I can stand this" but doesn't hurt. Peace.

[bawang]

*muay thai beats up kung fu
kung fu guy: MUAY THAI GIVE CANCER IS BAD FOR THE HEALTHY

[-N-]

*muay thai beats up kung fu
kung fu guy: MUAY THAI GIVE CANCER IS BAD FOR THE HEALTHY

Funny Muay Thai and KF story...

One student was Aiki Jitsu blackbelt and teacher, trained in US and Japan.

He had a 23 year old son.

Dad said, "We both go train KF. We can be partners".

Son said, "No, Dad. I want to learn Muay Thai".

After a couple years of dad doing KF and son doing MT, dad asked if son can join KF class.

I asked him why. He laughed and said he kicked his son's ass, and now the son wanted to learn how to do KF.

We did five hour classes on Saturdays because they drove ninety miles to get to class and ninety miles to get back home.

I partnered with the son and gave him lots of iron arm, body, and leg training, lots of sparring, as well as the usual KF applications and drills.

After a few years, the son moved and ended up going to one of Frank Shamrocks schools near his work.

[bawang]

thats some sh1tty ass muay thai if u have to switch to kung fu

[-N-]

It's about how you train.

The son was no poosy though. We all met at the gym where we lifted weights. Kid was pretty strong.

The dad trained 20 years in Japan. His teacher was rough and took him to bars after class to get drunk and start fights for more training.

[wiz cool c]

Heavy impact bone on bone contact can contribute to bone cancer, and many muay thai fighters in thailand have died from bone cancer as a result of doing it. Granted, the extreme shin conditioning they do also contributes to deaths from bone cancer. I don't know about kicking the side of a person's shin, but I think it should at least be less risky than going bone on bone. If you want to insist on kicking the side of someone's shin,, I would stop if you or your partner fell pain, rest until it goes away. Once you can do it without pain, you can gradually increase how often you do it, but no more than 3 times a week, allowing for at least a day of rest in between. Not "Oh, I can stand this" but doesn't hurt. Peace.

yeah I only make light contact when doing this drill with a partner ,and don't do it more than a couple of times a week. But I like the idea of making direct contact with the shin opposed to the side of the shins[that just seems pointless]. We got a hard heavy hanging sandbag which I stated to do light shin kicks to also condition the shins based on thai methods, even though all my roundhouse kick are done with the instep.

[-N-]

But I like the idea of making direct contact with the shin opposed to the side of the shins[that just seems pointless].

The point is to train your ability to minimize effect of your opponent's shin bone against your sciatic nerve when he tries to kick the side of your calf(or thigh), and your Kun Lun and San Yin Jiao points when he tries to take out your base.


We got a hard heavy hanging sandbag which I stated to do light shin kicks to also condition the shins based on thai methods, even though all my roundhouse kick are done with the instep.

Use shin bone for close range low round kicks when you run over your opponent. That is one of the real teachings of stance transitions in forms. Same thing as what you see Buakaw do all the time to his opponents while he's punching them.