The First Move of Praying Mantis

[Tainan Mantis]

What is the first move of the style?

[MightyB]

literally or figuratively?

[-N-]

Control.

--

[Mantis9700]

Breathe/inhale/ sink the qi

[Tainan Mantis]

literally or figuratively?

Literally

(Nice to see old friends still lurking)

[YouKnowWho]

What is the first move of the style?

- Right back palm strike at your opponent's face.
- Right hand grab on his wrist.
- Left hand grab on his elbow joint.
- Pull his arm into you.
- Release your right hand grip.
- Right hand punch on his face.

If you can knock your opponent down by this combo, you don't need anything else. I believe this is the "trade mark" of the preying mantis system by using 2 hands to against 1 arm.

[MightyB]

Literally

(Nice to see old friends still lurking)

(I still come on the forum occasionally, how's life back in Tainan?)

I have no idea, but my guess would be Diu Sau.

[PalmStriker]

:) Analyze Situation . Engage or avoid engagement, just like a mantis.

[Tainan Mantis]

Youknowwho described what I am talking about and Mighty B's diao shou 刁, hooking hand...that is what I meant.

There is a large quantity of written material on what makes up the mantis style as written by Heaven Ascended Daoist (HAD). I think that it is important that all the schools under the different branches can make a connection to what they do and what the style is actually supposed to contain. It is a rich heritage of material that only our style contains. In fact, it is one of the things that make the style the most unique of all martial art styles.

Youknowwho's gou lou cai 勾摟採 is definitely part of the core of the style but, according to HAD the style of mantis starts with Longfist. So that is the place to look first.

"太祖的長拳起首 Taizu's Longfist is First"

Since there are hundreds of Longfist forms (thanks YouknowWho for sharing a clip in an earlier post of what you learned) knowing the first technique becomes a question of just what HAD meant when he wrote that sentence.

[-N-]

Youknowwho described what I am talking about and Mighty B's diao shou 刁, hooking hand...that is what I meant.


Those both are examples of control.

Mantis is aggressive, but conservative.

It's always controlling first in its attacks.

Control can be physical, and it can be mental. Diou Sau and Fung Sao are examples of physical control.

YKW's example of lead palm strike is a type of mental control. You use the pressure of threat and time to control the other person and make him give you physical control of his defending hand.

Control is not just with the hand. It is with the footwork and entire body. Mental control is with the intent.

[-N-]

Fake high, attack low is an example of mental control.

In Bung Bo, the left diou - right eye poke -right jump kick sequence is example of mental control that starts with physical control.

The left diou is the physical control, but it is the eye attack threat which is the important mental control which makes the opponent give you the groin target.

[-N-]

"太祖的長拳起首 Taizu's Longfist is First"

Since there are hundreds of Longfist forms (thanks YouknowWho for sharing a clip in an earlier post of what you learned) knowing the first technique becomes a question of just what HAD meant when he wrote that sentence.

We take that to mean that Long Fist characteristic mechanics and spirit are the foundation for Mantis.

[bawang]

great ancestor long fist is the ancestor of all northern Chinese kung fu. itself is a catalogue system of multiple fighting styles of unknown date. has multiple fighting stances and concepts which branched off into simpler substyles. one of them is seven stars boxing

not to be confused with modern taizu changquan.

[Cataphract]

great ancestor long fist is the ancestor of all northern Chinese kung fu. itself is a catalogue system of multiple fighting styles of unknown date. has multiple fighting stances and concepts which branched off into simpler substyles. one of them is seven stars boxing

not to be confused with modern taizu changquan.

By "modern taizu changquan", do you mean some recent wushu form, or was there some older taizu style before Shaolin taizu changquan and the Shaolin version is modern?

[bawang]

By "modern taizu changquan", do you mean some recent wushu form, or was there some older taizu style before Shaolin taizu changquan and the Shaolin version is modern?
the ancient great ancestor long fist had no forms.

[Tainan Mantis]

great ancestor long fist is the ancestor of all northern Chinese kung fu. itself is a catalogue system of multiple fighting styles of unknown date. has multiple fighting stances and concepts which branched off into simpler substyles. one of them is seven stars boxing

not to be confused with modern taizu changquan..

Agree.

[Tainan Mantis]

Long fist Origin
During the Ming dynasty the martial art of the nation was called Han Tong of Muling Pass' Six Roads of Palm and Fist. Named after a famous general that guarded a strategic pass in the mountains of Shandong. These six roads were a collection of techniques attributed to three masters; Zhao Kuangyin, Han Tong, and Zhen En. They made up the backbone of military training for the troops.

[bawang]

why the hell do u keep using action adventure novels as historical references for Chinese martial arts. its been like 6 years straight of u doing this. why don't do some actual thinking. let me demonstrate.


in qijiguang's taizu changquan 32 postures one of the stances is called catapult stance. ming dynasty hasn't seen catapults for 200 years and early qing longfist changed the name to chopping stance because they didn't understand what is a catapult. another posture in 32 is called qiuliu stance. qiuliu was a Mongolian general who fought for early ming dynasty. early qing longfist couldn't understand and changed its name to head chopping stance.

so one technique with song dynasty reference that couldn't be understood in ming dynasty, and one technique with ming dynasty reference that couldn't be understood in qing dynasty. there you go a rough origin date by direct analysis of source material. in 5 min I solved ur decades long Scooby doo mystery solving.

[Tainan Mantis]

why the hell do u keep using action adventure novels as historical references for Chinese martial arts.

Not novels.
How were illiterate soldiers introduced to or taught about history and culture?
Oral stories (admittedly became novels) and plays.

The two examples you chose were quite good, neither of which relates to literature. As for 邱劉 I had read he was a person, though I haven't found an original source for him. The catapult reference I hadn't caught.

As for the the logic behind the literary connection I have been working on. There was a play that shared the same name with the fists and palms of Taizu's Longfist as recorded in the Ming Dynasty in 江南經畧. That the military routine shares the same name as a play of the same era is significant. Especially since it is described in Shaolin's Robe and Bowl Transmission, a book from the Qing under the name of Heaven Ascended Taoist.

It is a so called smoking gun in proving that the Longfist of Mantis is indeed the Longfist of Taiji, as well as Tongbei. This information combined with Robe and Bowl allows us to verify that Taizu's Longfist is originally indeed a move and not a style.

But, most importantly gives us more tools to trace the original Ming era military techniques from the Ming Dynasty directly to what was taught under the KMT prior to WW2.

I have Qiu Liu
邱劉勢左搬右掌，劈來腳入步連心，挪更拳法探馬均，打人一著命盡。

Which is the catapult?

As an aside, there is another technique within Qi Jiguang's 32 that is named directly after a then well known literary character named Chen Xiang. He was a child who went against impossible odds to free his mother from Er Lang's imprisonment.

And talking of Er Lang, a careful reading of literature allows us to verify that Shaolin Ming era stick indeed borrows from Sun Wukong, a detail that Shahar mused upon but was not able to verify.
It is significant in that it helps strengthen the hypothesis that before Journey to the West became the novel it is today, it was in fact part of a spiritual tradition as taught in Buddhist temples. The only surviving works of this earlier Sun Wukong having only survived in Japan.

The ability to connect our martial arts to culture of a moral and spiritual nature gives it a depth sorely lacking in martial arts of the present day.

[bawang]

how the hell is that a smoking gun that longfist is named in a play, longfist was the shotokan karate of the ming dynasty, everybody and their mother knew it.

and obviously sun wukong martial art info was gotten from martial artists by the storyteller to be more authentic not the other way around. the way your mind works is autistic it doesnt make sense. if you can get your hands on chinese boxing source material then you already have all your answers in 1 day. are you trying to churn out articles to get paid or something


this is like if for 7 years i try to prove that catch wrestling was invented by king charles and catch wrestling originates form chakespeare.

[Tainan Mantis]

why the hell do u keep using action adventure novels as historical references for Chinese martial arts. its been like 6 years straight of u doing this. why don't do some actual thinking.

The source of my sentence "During the Ming dynasty the martial art of the nation was called Han Tong of Muling Pass' Six Roads of Palm and Fist." Comes from a Ming era martial arts book Jiangnan Jingluo 江南經畧 pub.1568. A work which has been sited by other historians.

In reading old Mantis books such as Shaolin Robe and Bowl Transmission 少林依波真傳, which is the source of Eighteen Luohan Gong, (I noticed there are modern books and seminars still coming out about this form) we find that without a deep understanding of Ming era state approved theatre the book is almost indecipherable. Not "action adventure novels" but stage performances. A source of Chinese historical identity during the Ming, it is no wonder that books such as Jiangnan Jingluo, Qi Jiguang's military book, Shaolin's famous Ming era stick manual etc. would all borrow from it.

Mantis is not only no exception to this rule. A quick reading of Shaolin Robe and Bowl Transmission informs that you need to know old stories, no longer common to understand it.