The Ving Tsun of GM Ip Man

[Happy Tiger]

I have been sharing, of late, an opinion I've believed for decades. It's cannon that Ip Man had at least two distinct periods of VT training. What I don't believe is that he had partiality in his knowledge. I was asked to clarify my comment of 'street' versions of VT. South China was a Scrappy place students were teaching students and some remarkble if not Kung Fu high tech fighting was being forged. One more familiar would be Seattle born wing Chun do. Or,as it was known before Jun Fan Boxing

[Happy Tiger]

So this thread can be really fun. Do any of you older dogs remember some of the HK wing Chun feuds??? Ironically these childish expressions​ gave away a great deal of know

[KPM]

We know Ip Man studied with Chan Wah Shun as a child and CWS died pretty early on. So CWS's student Ng Chung So took over teaching Ip Man and was really the one that taught him the majority of his Wing Chun. Ip Man was also friends with Yuen Kay Shan, who was older than him. Their families were from the same social circle. It is said that Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Yip Choi were all friends and hung out together. They were known as the "Three Tigers of Foshan." So it stands to reason they would do some training together and exchange ideas and techniques. So I believe that Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun was a pretty big influence on Ip Man. It is also said that Ip Man studied with Leung Bik, who was said to be Leung Jan's son. But this has never been substantiated. From everything I've read and seen, I would put my money on Ng Chung So and Yuen Kay Shan being the biggest influences on Ip Man's Wing Chun. Then he, of course, changed things to suit himself based on his own experience.

I've never heard anything about any "street" versions of Wing Chun being a factor. And Ip Man never studied Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun. He may have known the Weng Chun guys at Dai Duk Lan and been familiar with what they did, but I don't think they really influenced his own Wing Chun.

I also don't believe the story William Cheung has told about Ip Man learning Traditional Wing Chun from Leung Bik and then teaching it only to him.

[Vajramusti]

-----------------------------------------------------

A muddled thread riddled with fiction

YKS influence on Ip Man? Nonsense

IP man himsef said that he learned from Leung Bik and that what he learned from Leung Bik
was much more concept based and complete. The details in CWS, YKS and Ip Man's wing chun
are striking.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

[zuti car]

-----------------------------------------------------

A muddled thread riddled with fiction

YKS influence on Ip Man? Nonsense

IP man himsef said that he learned from Leung Bik and that what he learned from Leung Bik
was much more concept based and complete. The details in CWS, YKS and Ip Man's wing chun
are striking.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

Yip Man himself was a trustworthy person, jukie and gambler who abandoned his own childer to save his ass . Everything he said must be 100% true

[KPM]

-----------------------------------------------------

A muddled thread riddled with fiction

YKS influence on Ip Man? Nonsense

IP man himsef said that he learned from Leung Bik and that what he learned from Leung Bik
was much more concept based and complete. The details in CWS, YKS and Ip Man's wing chun
are striking.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!


It is a muddled topic from the start. Not "muddled thread." When Ip Man wrote an article about the history of Wing Chun for publication, he mentioned nothing about Leung Bik. People around in that era have said that the Leung Bik story was added later. And its not even clear that Ip Man was the one that added it.

If you have details of CWS's Wing Chun, I've love to hear about them! Do you have a source or reference? Because the Wing Chun taught later by his son likely has many additions and embellishments and not at all what his father taught.

However, if you compare the Wing Chun that Ip Man taught early on in Foshan and to Leung Sheung in HK, there are many similarities to YKS Wing Chun. Now that may very well be because the Wing Chun taught to both Ip Man and YKS was very similar from the start! So its hard to say. But given the passion for Wing Chun that Ip Man displayed, does anyone really believe that if he was hanging out with and friends with another Wing Chun guy like YKS that had a good reputation of his own, was senior to Ip Man, and came from another branch of the tree....that Ip man wouldn't have exchanged with and learned from him??

As far as Leung Bik. Someone turned up photos of both Leung Jan and Leung Bik a couple of years back but I've never read that these were actually authenticated in any way. People have gone back and tried to find traces of Leung Bik in HK and turned up nothing. This lead to the idea that Leung Bik may have been a nick-name. Some have said it was actually Fung Wah, who was a student of Leung Jan in Foshan, but not his son. So there is that possibility. As noted, it is a somewhat "muddled" topic!

[zuti car]

It is a muddled topic from the start. Not "muddled thread." When Ip Man wrote an article about the history of Wing Chun for publication, he mentioned nothing about Leung Bik. People around in that era have said that the Leung Bik story was added later. And its not even clear that Ip Man was the one that added it.

If you have details of CWS's Wing Chun, I've love to hear about them! Do you have a source or reference? Because the Wing Chun taught later by his son likely has many additions and embellishments and not at all what his father taught.

However, if you compare the Wing Chun that Ip Man taught early on in Foshan and to Leung Sheung in HK, there are many similarities to YKS Wing Chun. Now that may very well be because the Wing Chun taught to both Ip Man and YKS was very similar from the start! So its hard to say. But given the passion for Wing Chun that Ip Man displayed, does anyone really believe that if he was hanging out with and friends with another Wing Chun guy like YKS that had a good reputation of his own, was senior to Ip Man, and came from another branch of the tree....that Ip man wouldn't have exchanged with and learned from him??

As far as Leung Bik. Someone turned up photos of both Leung Jan and Leung Bik a couple of years back but I've never read that these were actually authenticated in any way. People have gone back and tried to find traces of Leung Bik in HK and turned up nothing. This lead to the idea that Leung Bik may have been a nick-name. Some have said it was actually Fung Wah, who was a student of Leung Jan in Foshan, but not his son. So there is that possibility. As noted, it is a somewhat "muddled" topic!
Leung Jan's photo is clearly tombstone photo ,so the question is , why thake a photo of a photo and not the whole grave site and name on the tombstone , so everyone can see what name is on it , if that is leung jan . About Leung Bik , people now talking his grandso lives in HK but it is impossible to locate that person . It is interesting how far people are ready to go to keep the appearance of their believes true . It is also how easily people look over the fact that Yip Man was a racist( and some other things) . People just say ,, he was a man of his time ". Hitler was also a man of his time but that does not make fascism right .

[Happy Tiger]

What I'm trying to point out is, in Ip Man VT of the children of this lineage have a secret yet dissertated. A way of applying this science that is not totally obvious. As for racism, yes people were, to an extent products of their time. When nationism was concern . I remember reminding some one here about the racism of the great author Sam Clemens. Progress is not an even process.

[Happy Tiger]

There was a saying at the VTAA that echos to this day...' You cannot go between floors.' I wonder Why?

[zuti car]

What I'm trying to point out is, in Ip Man VT of the children of this lineage have a secret yet dissertated. A way of applying this science that is not totally obvious. As for racism, yes people were, to an extent products of their time. When nationism was concern . I remember reminding some one here about the racism of the great author Sam Clemens. Progress is not an even process.
First two senteces you wrote I totally do not understand . As for racism , it is not product of its time , and even if it was that still doesn't make it right .Just one example ,Sum Nung , who is same generation as Yip Man had "white devils" as students during 60's , many teachers from Taiwan (previously escaped from China) went overseas and taugtht openly much before Bruce started . So ,Yip Man was a racist , period . About nationalsm , that is never cause for racism , most europen people are nationalists , loving your nation does not make you hate others , makes you respect and understand others .

[Happy Tiger]

Too bad you are hung up on that. I could use some experience I thought you had .I have concidered what you say but you revieal you know little of what I am referring to.

[Happy Tiger]

If you want to waist time ... Seems like a popular pass time here. ****, I'm not looking for this kind of info. You have shown ....My wife says I need to go to sleep.
.

[Happy Tiger]

I'm looking for info, not trying to import info. This is not my place for advance.

[Happy Tiger]

First two senteces you wrote I totally do not understand . As for racism , it is not product of its time , and even if it was that still doesn't make it right .Just one example ,Sum Nung , who is same generation as Yip Man had "white devils" as students during 60's , many teachers from Taiwan (previously escaped from China) went overseas and taugtht openly much before Bruce started . So ,Yip Man was a racist , period . About nationalsm , that is never cause for racism , most europen people are nationalists , loving your nation does not make you hate others , makes you respect and understand others .
Ok , I'm Canadian. I agree​, I don't always get this feeling.

[LFJ]

As for racism, yes people were, to an extent products of their time. When nationism was concern .

Sadly, we are still in those times!

If living in China has taught me anything, it's that many Chinese are among the most openly racists people alive!

Every TV channel has shows all day long about them killing Japanese from "little Japan". They even hate darker versions of themselves, the countryfolk who build their cities, and you should see the way Hong Kong people talk about Mainlanders. It's despicable.

The funny thing is, most of the HKers are still ethnically Chinese, but they talk about how terrible "Chinese" people are while claiming to be British, even though the Queen abandoned them!

The worst part, though, is that they have no shame in being openly racist. It really makes you sick to your stomach, the way they act and treat one another.

[Cataphract]

About nationalsm , that is never cause for racism , most europen people are nationalists , loving your nation does not make you hate others , makes you respect and understand others .

That is wrong on so many levels.

Nationalism does not equal patriotism.
Actual chauvinists are a weird minority. Brexit was a knee jerk reaction.
Chauvinism and racism go hand in hand. Every right wing populist's selling point is their xenophobic policy.

[zuti car]

Too bad you are hung up on that. I could use some experience I thought you had .I have concidered what you say but you revieal you know little of what I am referring to.

I totally don't understand what are you taking about

[zuti car]

That is wrong on so many levels.

Nationalism does not equal patriotism.
Actual chauvinists are a weird minority. Brexit was a knee jerk reaction.
Chauvinism and racism go hand in hand. Every right wing populist's selling point is their xenophobic policy.

everyone sees what he wants to see. I don't know much about politics , neither i care , i am simply saying , loving your country and your people does not make hate others , just like loving your children does not make you hate other children. Majority of the people are just that, commom people without extrem political conviction .

[Happy Tiger]

Sadly, we are still in those times!

If living in China has taught me anything, it's that many Chinese are among the most openly racists people alive!

Every TV channel has shows all day long about them killing Japanese from "little Japan". They even hate darker versions of themselves, the countryfolk who build their cities, and you should see the way Hong Kong people talk about Mainlanders. It's despicable.

The funny thing is, most of the HKers are still ethnically Chinese, but they talk about how terrible "Chinese" people are while claiming to be British, even though the Queen abandoned them!

The worst part, though, is that they have no shame in being openly racist. It really makes you sick to your stomach, the way they act and treat one another.
Yes > bows deeply<

[Happy Tiger]

We should remember what was happening at the time. Plus, Chinese never forget.

[JikJeung]

[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1301404]I have been sharing, of late, an opinion I've believed for decades. It's cannon that Ip Man had at least two distinct periods of VT training. What I don't believe is that he had partiality in his knowledge. I was asked to clarify my comment of 'street' versions of VT.


Sorry to but in to the topic late but I just returned to the list after a number of years.
Personally I think there are a lot of factors to take into account. Although he was quite traditional in some facets of his life and world view. I think Ip Man was influenced by the Guoshu movement and his teaching approach continued to evolve over his life. Although the system was reworked between his Foshan and Hong Kong period, his approach to teaching continued to evolve even in Hong Kong between the 1950's and 60's.


Tom

[JikJeung]

[QUOTE=KPM;1301422]We know Ip Man studied with Chan Wah Shun as a child and CWS died pretty early on. So CWS's student Ng Chung So took over teaching Ip Man and was really the one that taught him the majority of his Wing Chun. Ip Man was also friends with Yuen Kay Shan, who was older than him. Their families were from the same social circle. It is said that Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Yip Choi were all friends and hung out together. They were known as the "Three Tigers of Foshan." So it stands to reason they would do some training together and exchange ideas and techniques. So I believe that Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun was a pretty big influence on Ip Man. It is also said that Ip Man studied with Leung Bik, who was said to be Leung Jan's son. But this has never been substantiated. From everything I've read and seen, I would put my money on Ng Chung So and Yuen Kay Shan being the biggest influences on Ip Man's Wing Chun. Then he, of course, changed things to suit himself based on his own experience.

Solid points. There is quite a bit of evidence of the existence of Leung Bik. Ip Man himself told a number of senior students and confidants about him besides what was written about his interview with new martial hero mag. He did not regard him as his Sifu however as it would not be proper tradition to do so. I think Ip, Yuen and Yiu were all good friends who used to hand around at Ng Chun So's school and Chi sau and exchange idea's. No doubt they all learned things from each other.


Tom

[JikJeung]

-----------------------------------------------------

A muddled thread riddled with fiction

YKS influence on Ip Man? Nonsense

IP man himsef said that he learned from Leung Bik and that what he learned from Leung Bik
was much more concept based and complete. The details in CWS, YKS and Ip Man's wing chun
are striking.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!


Very True Joy! Not only did he tell a number of students but mentioned it in his interview with New Martial Hero Magazine. Anyway, Finally I have some time here and there to get back to the list. It has been a few years. Good to see you posting still! Take care my Friend!

Tom R.

[JikJeung]

It is a muddled topic from the start. Not "muddled thread." When Ip Man wrote an article about the history of Wing Chun for publication, he mentioned nothing about Leung Bik. People around in that era have said that the Leung Bik story was added later. And its not even clear that Ip Man was the one that added it.

If you have details of CWS's Wing Chun, I've love to hear about them! Do you have a source or reference? Because the Wing Chun taught later by his son likely has many additions and embellishments and not at all what his father taught.

However, if you compare the Wing Chun that Ip Man taught early on in Foshan and to Leung Sheung in HK, there are many similarities to YKS Wing Chun. Now that may very well be because the Wing Chun taught to both Ip Man and YKS was very similar from the start! So its hard to say. But given the passion for Wing Chun that Ip Man displayed, does anyone really believe that if he was hanging out with and friends with another Wing Chun guy like YKS that had a good reputation of his own, was senior to Ip Man, and came from another branch of the tree....that Ip man wouldn't have exchanged with and learned from him??

As far as Leung Bik. Someone turned up photos of both Leung Jan and Leung Bik a couple of years back but I've never read that these were actually authenticated in any way. People have gone back and tried to find traces of Leung Bik in HK and turned up nothing. This lead to the idea that Leung Bik may have been a nick-name. Some have said it was actually Fung Wah, who was a student of Leung Jan in Foshan, but not his son. So there is that possibility. As noted, it is a somewhat "muddled" topic!



Actually the Ip Man lineage story written was meant to be a general history for the establishment of an organization that was a precursor to the VTAA. As to the Ip brothers there are personal influences in by of their teaching methods but Ip Ching is much closer to what his father taught in the 60's until his death (Moy Yat's assertion). As to Leung Bik people will believe what suits their view point https://www.facebook.com/pg/SingaporeIpManVingTsunKuen/photos/?tab=album&album_id=349128988508337


Tom

[Happy Tiger]

This information is very valuable to me. I have never believed that the first generation descendants of Ip Man were 'interpreting' what was taught them. I know they are transmitting what they were taught. But it cannot be denied they are many quiet different. We used to have a fellow visit our gwoon who by his own admission wasn't the best or most dedicated VT player. He said many people 'hung out' at the club. Athletic Clubs were also to a degree,
social places Folks played Tiles or just read papers and talked. Gossiping o the players.


. Uncle Yough said Ip man's hands felt different to different people. Yet since then , most Masters you can tell their house as soon as you touch hands. Perhaps VT needs a period of additive as opposed to subtractive progress in

[Happy Tiger]

The worst enemy of Ving Tsun is onoui

[wckf92]

The worst enemy of Ving Tsun is onoui

What is onoui???

[Happy Tiger]

What is onoui???
A fancy shmancy way of saying boredom 😊

[LFJ]

A fancy shmancy way of saying boredom ��

Ennui? Like French for "annoy".

[Happy Tiger]

Ennui? Like French for "annoy".
Yeah you have it spelled right but it means boredom. My spell check is outta control

[Grumblegeezer]

Yeah you have it spelled right but it means boredom. My spell check is outta control

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ennui

[Happy Tiger]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ennui
Thanks GG. See it's more nuanced than just saying boredom.Did I use nuanced right​ :) ? Looks like we all win this one.

[GeneChing]

Read Ving Tsun Athletic Association 50th Anniversary Celebration (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1399) by Benny Meng. This article is an unabridged version of The 50th Anniversary of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association in Hong Kong By Benny Meng in our MARCH+APRIL 2018 issue (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1398).

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/9004_20180415-VTAA50A.jpg

Thread: March+April 2018 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70677)
Thread: The Ving Tsun of GM Ip Man (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70200)

[PalmStriker]

:) KUNG MASTERY : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-8shuZKkqM