Technical discussion - WSLVT

[wckf92]

From reading on forums I gather that WSLVT primarily focuses on the upstairs (boxing) with an equal focus on fast / aggressive footwork, etc.

My question is: does the WSLVT have much in the way of footwork training drills? Kicks? Kicking / leg attribute drills? etc? [The few times I've seen PB kick it looked like the basic straight kick from CK form...is that accurate to say?]

I recently read on a WSLVT website that you guys have the typical YJKYM...but to you it is training the leg (individually, yet done at same time) to support the punch mechanics. Is this accurate? Do you guys do any single-leg training?

Secondly, are the legs of WSLVT also conforming to LLHS/LSJK/LSDD etc?

Are your leg methods also 'pole-centric'?

Thx in advance for any technical discussion...
*sorry for so many questions...

[LFJ]

My question is: does the WSLVT have much in the way of footwork training drills? Kicks? Kicking / leg attribute drills? etc? [The few times I've seen PB kick it looked like the basic straight kick from CK form...is that accurate to say?]

Footwork and kicking can be drilled in and out of chi-sau, but no "sticking legs".
There are other low-aimed kicks, for different ranges and uses.


I recently read on a WSLVT website that you guys have the typical YJKYM...but to you it is training the leg (individually, yet done at same time) to support the punch mechanics. Is this accurate? Do you guys do any single-leg training?

Accurate, yes.

Single-leg drills can be done for balance and kicking,
but not to replace YJKYM, as that would defeat the purpose.


Secondly, are the legs of WSLVT also conforming to LLHS/LSJK/LSDD etc?

LLHS/LSJC describes the strategy employed by the whole body, not just hand tactics.
It starts from the base and tactical footwork supports execution that would otherwise not work.

So, yeah.

LSDD applied to legs, like sticking-legs stuff? No.
We don't want to get tied up and immobilized in fighting.
Not worth it. Mobility is your best friend in fighting.


Are your leg methods also 'pole-centric'?

Main ideas of tactical footwork are trained by the dummy.
Power and speed improved by pole training.
Mobility improved by knife training.

[wckf92]

Footwork and kicking can be drilled in and out of chi-sau, but no "sticking legs". There are other low-aimed kicks, for different ranges and uses.

So, in WSLVT, there is no correlation between chi sau and chi gerk? In other words, I get it that you guys don't do chi gerk drilling; but if your chi sau platform is drilling the punch, wouldn't chi gerk drill the kick? Just curious.

As for the other stuff...low aimed kicks for different ranges and uses...I agree.



Single-leg drills can be done for balance and kicking, but not to replace YJKYM, as that would defeat the purpose.

Yes, agree on balance and kicking part. As for defeating the purpose...is that because of the angle of the foot in single leg vs YJKYM and how it relates to supporting punch mechanics(?)



LSDD applied to legs, like sticking-legs stuff? No. We don't want to get tied up and immobilized in fighting. Not worth it. Mobility is your best friend in fighting.

Ok, I think I understand. So you are saying that if facing a kicker, you'd most likely deal with leg attacks through tactical footwork/mobility vs counter-kicking. Or have I misunderstood you?



Main ideas of tactical footwork are trained by the dummy. Power and speed improved by pole training. Mobility improved by knife training.

Understood and agree.

Thanks for your feedback

[LFJ]

So, in WSLVT, there is no correlation between chi sau and chi gerk? In other words, I get it that you guys don't do chi gerk drilling; but if your chi sau platform is drilling the punch, wouldn't chi gerk drill the kick? Just curious.

Kicks don't have the LSDD function of punching, so don't need a similar training method.
We don't do taan and bong-geuk and other sticking-legs stuff others do.


As for defeating the purpose...is that because of the angle of the foot in single leg vs YJKYM and how it relates to supporting punch mechanics(?)

I just mean in forms and drills using YJKYM, we are using both legs for a reason. Better to do single-leg stuff separately if you want.


So you are saying that if facing a kicker, you'd most likely deal with leg attacks through tactical footwork/mobility vs counter-kicking.

Preferably. Counter-kicking can be used, depending on range, position, timing, but without trying to stick to or do some tricks to their legs first.
Move on two feet and counter, always preferable to standing on one leg and doing things to their leg with the other. Too easy to get tied up and immobilized.

[wckf92]

Kicks don't have the LSDD function of punching, so don't need a similar training method.

We don't do taan and bong-geuk and other sticking-legs stuff others do.

Counter-kicking can be used, depending on range, position, timing, but without trying to stick to or do some tricks to their legs first.

Move on two feet and counter, always preferable to standing on one leg and doing things to their leg with the other. Too easy to get tied up and immobilized.


I wish I knew how to use the multi quote feature on this forum. Anyways....

Kicks don't have LSDD function of punching? Is that because of the shape you guys use for your kicks? Or more of a timing issue in order to be compliant with LSDD?
If I understand you correctly, your arms have been trained and drilled for punching with built in Tan and Jum ideas, thus functioning all together to accomplish LSDD with one arm...essentially making one of your arms as if it were two arms. Wouldn't the legs follow suit? (maybe not with "tan" or "jum" but...).

Thanks.

[LFJ]

I wish I knew how to use the multi quote feature on this forum. Anyways....

Just highlight the selected text, then above the reply box there's a speech bubble icon that will add quote tags.

Or just put
before the text and [/ quote] after it, minus the space.

[quote]Kicks don't have LSDD function of punching? Is that because of the shape you guys use for your kicks? Or more of a timing issue in order to be compliant with LSDD?
If I understand you correctly, your arms have been trained and drilled for punching with built in Tan and Jum ideas, thus functioning all together to accomplish LSDD with one arm...essentially making one of your arms as if it were two arms. Wouldn't the legs follow suit? (maybe not with "tan" or "jum" but...).

The problem is leg anatomy is unlike the arm and the attack line of a kick wouldn't accommodate simultaneous displacement while hitting target the way a punch does. The result is you're either kicking the opponent's kick, or catching and diverting it before counter-kicking.

This is not preferable to staying mobile to avoid kicks and taking openings to kick, because you are on one leg while making leg-to-leg contact with the other. Many things could go wrong in the air or on the way down, e.g.; getting tied up and immobilized; loss of balance; loss of position, and recovery in case of such things is difficult. It is entirely unlike LSDD punching from a balanced and mobile base.

VT tactics are based on percentages. Chi-geuk stuff is higher risk vs potential reward.

[wckf92]

Hmmm...the multi quote thing doesn't work on my end. Could be the browser. Dunno. :(

[JikJeung]

From reading on forums I gather that WSLVT primarily focuses on the upstairs (boxing) with an equal focus on fast / aggressive footwork, etc.

My question is: does the WSLVT have much in the way of footwork training drills? Kicks? Kicking / leg attribute drills? etc? [The few times I've seen PB kick it looked like the basic straight kick from CK form...is that accurate to say?]

I recently read on a WSLVT website that you guys have the typical YJKYM...but to you it is training the leg (individually, yet done at same time) to support the punch mechanics. Is this accurate? Do you guys do any single-leg training?

Secondly, are the legs of WSLVT also conforming to LLHS/LSJK/LSDD etc?

Are your leg methods also 'pole-centric'?

Thx in advance for any technical discussion...
*sorry for so many questions...


I know Gary Lam has come good (imo) kicking and Footwork Drills and he's a great Guy. You can see clips on youtube.

[wckf92]

Just highlight the selected text, then above the reply box there's a speech bubble icon that will add quote tags.

Or just put
before the text and [/ quote] after it, minus the space.

Didn't work. Are you using a laptop or desktop PC? Phone? App?


The problem is leg anatomy is unlike the arm and the attack line of a kick wouldn't accommodate simultaneous displacement while hitting target the way a punch does. The result is you're either kicking the opponent's kick, or catching and diverting it before counter-kicking.

This is not preferable to staying mobile to avoid kicks and taking openings to kick, because you are on one leg while making leg-to-leg contact with the other. Many things could go wrong in the air or on the way down, e.g.; getting tied up and immobilized; loss of balance; loss of position, and recovery in case of such things is difficult. It is entirely unlike LSDD punching from a balanced and mobile base.

VT tactics are based on percentages. Chi-geuk stuff is higher risk vs potential reward.

Ok. Got it.
I was just thinking that the legs are pole-based because we obviously can't levitate...and if/when the VT / WC guy decides to kick (whether counter-kicking, or just to kick because he sees and wants to exploit a tactical weakness in his opponent) that if uninterrupted enroute then his kick will land. If interrupted, then (like a pole) it would have to clear that obstruction slightly before returning to the leg assault.
Anyways...thanks for the replies!

[wckf92]

I know Gary Lam has come good (imo) kicking and Footwork Drills and he's a great Guy. You can see clips on youtube.


Cool...thanks. Yeah I'm asking / discussing specifically from the perspective of the WSL VT (I guess the 'PB' and similar) because I've read in the past that GL may have changed/added stuff so I'm trying to gain a better understanding of "non-GL" types...but thanks anyway!

[guy b.]

From reading on forums I gather that WSLVT primarily focuses on the upstairs (boxing) with an equal focus on fast / aggressive footwork, etc.

My question is: does the WSLVT have much in the way of footwork training drills? Kicks? Kicking / leg attribute drills? etc? [The few times I've seen PB kick it looked like the basic straight kick from CK form...is that accurate to say?]

I recently read on a WSLVT website that you guys have the typical YJKYM...but to you it is training the leg (individually, yet done at same time) to support the punch mechanics. Is this accurate? Do you guys do any single-leg training?

Secondly, are the legs of WSLVT also conforming to LLHS/LSJK/LSDD etc?

Are your leg methods also 'pole-centric'?

Thx in advance for any technical discussion...
*sorry for so many questions...

Drill here:


https://gfycat.com/ZealousEasyDugong

[JikJeung]

Cool...thanks. Yeah I'm asking / discussing specifically from the perspective of the WSL VT (I guess the 'PB' and similar) because I've read in the past that GL may have changed/added stuff so I'm trying to gain a better understanding of "non-GL" types...but thanks anyway!

Gotcha, Sorry. I know Lam does have a background with Muay Thai (which in my opinion is a positive thing).I don't think it caused him to Change things persay but rather to expand his view on applying what he learned from Wong. I think every teacher pretty much does this based on personal experiences. Anyway I get what your saying. FWIW here's one of Gary's Great students https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtg2ZdMR3eg

Best Wishes,

Tom

[JikJeung]

Drill here:


https://gfycat.com/ZealousEasyDugong

Good stuff, thanks for sharing that!

[guy b.]

Kicks don't have LSDD function of punching? Is that because of the shape you guys use for your kicks?

Legs don't have elbows. You really need to go and train with someone.

[guy b.]

Cool...thanks. Yeah I'm asking / discussing specifically from the perspective of the WSL VT (I guess the 'PB' and similar) because I've read in the past that GL may have changed/added stuff so I'm trying to gain a better understanding of "non-GL" types...but thanks anyway!

I think you would be better going with a GL student than trying to piece it together on forums which will never work. GL not strictly WSL VT but some of his students look good and surely better than guessing.

[LFJ]

If interrupted, then (like a pole) it would have to clear that obstruction slightly before returning to the leg assault.

Better, I think, to put the foot down and recover stable, mobile position for attacking asap, than to contort the leg in the air to somehow divert the opponent's leg in order to kick again. Sounds quite risky/impractical.

[LFJ]

I think you would be better going with a GL student than trying to piece it together on forums which will never work. GL not strictly WSL VT but some of his students look good and surely better than guessing.

Yes, but I give him credit.

He often asks good, honest questions without an agenda, and seems intelligent enough to understand the answers.

But certainly, to get the full picture one really has to do it hands-on, which I'm sure he would given the opportunity.

[KPM]

He often asks good, honest questions without an agenda, and seems intelligent enough to understand the answers.

.

:rolleyes:


Ask him if he believes you can train and practice Wing Chun without any applications. ;)

You guys do pretty good when you actually make the effort, people are asking easy questions, and no one is challenging your beliefs or disagreeing with what you say. :cool:

[LFJ]

..........

[guy b.]

Yes, but I give him credit.

He often asks good, honest questions without an agenda, and seems intelligent enough to understand the answers.

But certainly, to get the full picture one really has to do it hands-on, which I'm sure he would given the opportunity.

I know, not meant as an attack..I just think it would now be worth making an effort to try meeting someone good since obviously interested. Not everyone has access to excellent teaching and many of us do need to move forward slowly on our own or with like minded others. But a meeting with a good teacher can be a transformative moment and I think worth doing.

[KPM]

.I just think it would now be worth making an effort to try meeting someone good since obviously interested. Not everyone has access to excellent teaching and many of us do need to move forward slowly on our own or with like minded others. But a meeting with a good teacher can be a transformative moment and I think worth doing.

Now that I can fully agree with! Good point!

[wckf92]

Thanks for all the feedback gents. Good discussion.