View Full Version : Effective strategies against VT
guy b.
04-15-2017, 09:09 AM
Name some effective strategies you have encoutered in sparring against non-VT people. We can then discuss what you might do to negate them (standup only). Assume VT working normally and no serous defects.
Some that I have seen:
1. Crashing in from distance. VT punches can be jammed and crashing in with a knee or low kick then grabbing on can be hard to deal with. e.g. vs MT or Kyokushin fighters
2. Hitting and moving. It can be hard to apply enough pressure and cut the way vs very mobile boxers due to speed and non-commitment to punches
Any others you have seen?
Grumblegeezer
04-15-2017, 11:46 AM
Name some effective strategies you have encoutered in sparring against non-VT people. We can then discuss what you might do to negate them (standup only). Assume VT working normally and no serous defects.
Some that I have seen:
1. Crashing in from distance. VT punches can be jammed and crashing in with a knee or low kick then grabbing on can be hard to deal with. e.g. vs MT or Kyokushin fighters
2. Hitting and moving. It can be hard to apply enough pressure and cut the way vs very mobile boxers due to speed and non-commitment to punches
Any others you have seen?
Related to #1 above, someone who can set you up and then shoot a good takedown. Too many WC/VT fighters are head-hunters who leave their legs exposed. If they train against takedowns, they too often train against other 'chunners who can't shoot or grapple.
IMO this is totally rectifiable with training and experience.
guy b.
04-15-2017, 12:12 PM
Related to #1 above, someone who can set you up and then shoot a good takedown. Too many WC/VT fighters are head-hunters who leave their legs exposed. If they train against takedowns, they too often train against other 'chunners who can't shoot or grapple.
IMO this is totally rectifiable with training and experience.
Yes shooting in although wanted to limit it to standup fighting really since this is where VT works.
Regarding crashing in the best option I have found is not to leave space and to be effective in chasing and cutting the way. Limit options, force reactions
Grumblegeezer
04-15-2017, 12:38 PM
Yes shooting in although wanted to limit it to standup fighting really since this is where VT works.
Regarding crashing in the best option I have found is not to leave space and to be effective in chasing and cutting the way. Limit options, force reactions
VT works against grapplers too if you can use your standup game to shut down their grappling game. Limit options! Force reactions!!
Now can LFJ or somebody else come up with a Cantonese kuen kuit for that? :D
Name some effective strategies you have encoutered in sparring against non-VT people. We can then discuss what you might do to negate them (standup only). Assume VT working normally and no serous defects.
Some that I have seen:
1. Crashing in from distance. VT punches can be jammed and crashing in with a knee or low kick then grabbing on can be hard to deal with. e.g. vs MT or Kyokushin fighters
2. Hitting and moving. It can be hard to apply enough pressure and cut the way vs very mobile boxers due to speed and non-commitment to punches
Any others you have seen?
1. Someone that is good at sidestepping and using angles can time a chain-punching charge up the middle, turn the Wing Chun guy and attack his flank or take his back.
2. If you stand right in front of a good boxer and haven't shut him down yet, he can nail you from some unpredictable angles that are hard to stop. A good tight overhand shot can loop right over the top of an extended guard or punch. Or he can drop and weave to the side and dig in with a shovel hook just outside your peripheral vision. I learned that one the hard way!!!
3. A good fighter that has had a chance to "feel out" the Wing Chun guy will quickly see that most of the time all of the footwork is very linear and tends to go straight in. So he quickly learns to "bait" the Wing Chun guy and then use lateral footwork and angles to land shots.
4. A good boxer that knows how to work the clinch can quickly shut down that charging straight-blast and the fight becomes either an exchange of wild flailing shots, or the Wing Chun guy gets controlled and hammered in tight. One would think that this range would be Wing Chun's forte. But it seems too often that when it becomes a "grappling clinch" Wing Chun guys don't know what to do.
Happy Tiger
04-15-2017, 02:40 PM
All these strategy are of value. However I suggest a very good way to beat VT is with VT itself. At its heart VT is a game of paper, rock,scissors. But the choices of composition and priority are indeed wide. The more a fighter is aware of, the more they can select a composition that cancles the other out.
Grumblegeezer
04-15-2017, 06:53 PM
All these strategy are of value. However I suggest a very good way to beat VT is with VT itself. At its heart VT is a game of paper, rock,scissors. But the choices of composition and priority are indeed wide. The more a fighter is aware of, the more they can select a composition that cancles the other out.
This is true. the problem is finding other VT/WC/WT people to fight you. Heck, around here, even some of my former hing-dai won't even do chi-sau or spar with me (or other outsiders, infidels, apostates, and heretics). :D
I agree with KPM that getting an angle, especially to the outside is great. But that's also what boxers train. and they train it hard! As far as TWC goes, yeah, they work on that too, but from what little I've seen (on video, etc.) not all of them work at maintaining constant forward pressure. In some of the clips they actually create more distance. That has never worked well for me.
Happy Tiger
04-15-2017, 07:48 PM
This is true. the problem is finding other VT/WC/WT people to fight you. Heck, around here, even some of my former hing-dai won't even do chi-sau or spar with me (or other outsiders, infidels, apostates, and heretics). :D
I agree with KPM that getting an angle, especially to the outside is great. But that's also what boxers train. and they train it hard! As far as TWC goes, yeah, they work on that too, but from what little I've seen (on video, etc.) not all of them work at maintaining constant forward pressure. In some of the clips they actually create more distance. That has never worked well for me. agreed. Luck of the Irish in my case.
a chain-punching charge up the middle
If you stand right in front of a good boxer
most of the time all of the footwork is very linear and tends to go straight in.
that charging straight-blast
This describes poor Wing Chun devoid of strategy. Doesn't take much sophistication to defeat this.
Name some effective strategies you have encoutered in sparring against non-VT people.
I have faced many different styles, and more than any particular strategy being most difficult to deal with, I find VT's effectiveness to be proportionate to assertiveness in the fight.
VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.
Where you would have knocked the opponent out, they are instead able to continue exchanging, causing you to change behaviors to what may not necessarily be in line with VT strategy.
It's particularly annoying when facing people who don't acknowledge when they would have been stopped, unless you actually stop them.
VT has worked best for me where I have not held back, worst when I have and forfeited the initiative to the opponent to work their strategy, whatever it was.
Whenever I have come away from an exchange not feeling great about my performance, it has been due to too low assertiveness.
guy b.
04-16-2017, 12:46 AM
I have faced many different styles, and more than any particular strategy being most difficult to deal with, I find VT's effectiveness to be proportionate to assertiveness in the fight.
VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.
Where you would have knocked the opponent out, they are instead able to continue exchanging, causing you to change behaviors to what may not necessarily be in line with VT strategy.
It's particularly annoying when facing people who don't acknowledge when they would have been stopped, unless you actually stop them.
VT has worked best for me where I have not held back, worst when I have and forfeited the initiative to the opponent to work their strategy, whatever it was.
Whenever I have come away from an exchange not feeling great about my performance, it has been due to too low assertiveness.
Excellent point and highlights the danger of training a sparring mindset
This describes poor Wing Chun devoid of strategy. Doesn't take much sophistication to defeat this.
That describes just about every Wing Chun sparring, or training for sparring clip you will see (unless they look like they are kickboxing). Do you have one that does better? That describes a lot of the mistakes I have made personally after training in Ip Man Wing Chun. That describes many of the clips posted here recently on this forum.
VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.
---Yes. That is a good point.
Where you would have knocked the opponent out, they are instead able to continue exchanging, causing you to change behaviors to what may not necessarily be in line with VT strategy.
---But that statement may imply that your VT defense is not very good. If your strategy falls apart simply because the opponent didn't go down under your initial onslaught and is instead still fighting back, that may be a problem. And its hard to know what would have really knocked the opponent out, unless you actually knock them out. People have differing abilities to take a punch. In a real exchange you might think your blow would have knocked them out and discover that it only ****ed them off. So I think its better not to count on that.
VT has worked best for me where I have not held back, worst when I have and forfeited the initiative to the opponent to work their strategy, whatever it was.
---Again, someone could say this implies not having a very good defense. But then again, I think ANY martial art is going to work better if it has taken the initiative and is on the attack rather than defending.
That describes just about every Wing Chun sparring, or training for sparring clip you will see (unless they look like they are kickboxing). Do you have one that does better? That describes a lot of the mistakes I have made personally after training in Ip Man Wing Chun. That describes many of the clips posted here recently on this forum.
Then why continue with Wing Chun? Personally, I would give it up for something better.
If you have better Wing Chun than what you described, I think that's what this thread is about; your best Wing Chun and what works best against it.
---But that statement may imply that your VT defense is not very good.
No. I didn't say I couldn't defend, but that defense like that is not necessarily in line with VT strategy.
IOW, that's not how VT is designed to work.
If your strategy falls apart simply because the opponent didn't go down under your initial onslaught and is instead still fighting back, that may be a problem.
I didn't say that. I'm talking about letting up because it is a "friendly spar".
This allows them to do things that otherwise would be shut down with "unfriendly" force.
And its hard to know what would have really knocked the opponent out, unless you actually knock them out. People have differing abilities to take a punch. In a real exchange you might think your blow would have knocked them out and discover that it only ****ed them off. So I think its better not to count on that.
I don't count on that. This just highlights the problem with a friendly spar and the negative effects it can have on VT.
In such an exchange, I'm not going to blast on them until they're out.
---Again, someone could say this implies not having a very good defense.
VT is not a defensive martial art. I didn't say I can't defend myself, though.
VT not working optimally as it should due to holding back does not mean I get beat up.
It just means I'm not using VT as it is intended and am sometimes forced to become too defensive because I'm being too friendly.
In other words, KPM, this quote that you agreed with...
VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.
---Yes. That is a good point.
...is the same as these quotes where you blame poor defense, rather than dialled back aggressiveness you just agreed with.
Where you would have knocked the opponent out, they are instead able to continue exchanging, causing you to change behaviors to what may not necessarily be in line with VT strategy.
---But that statement may imply that your VT defense is not very good.
VT has worked best for me where I have not held back, worst when I have and forfeited the initiative to the opponent to work their strategy, whatever it was.
---Again, someone could say this implies not having a very good defense.
Then why continue with Wing Chun? Personally, I would give it up for something better.
If you have better Wing Chun than what you described, I think that's what this thread is about; your best Wing Chun and what works best against it.
---I've studied Ip Man Wing Chun, TWC, and Pin Sun Wing Chun. Not long ago I got my ass kicked in sparring by a good boxer. He literally knocked me on my ass! In the past I hadn't had much opportunity to spar with someone like that. Like a lot of Wing Chun guys, most of my sparring was against fellow Chunners. I was doing a lot of what I described above in this thread. So I did a serious appraisal of the approach I had learned. I spent a lot of time going through Wing Chun sparring clips on-line and "Wing Chun vs. X" clips. The guys that were doing the best in sparring while still doing obvious Wing Chun were TWC guys. And that is because they included strategies other than charging up the center with chain punches, or standing right in front of a good boxer and expecting to come out on top. I started to revisit the "blindside strategy" and use of angles from TWC as well as some of the "pre-contact phase" strategies. I essentially went back to my TWC training, although what I do still has something of a Pin Sun "flavor" to it. And my sparring abilities improved a lot as a result.
No. I didn't say I couldn't defend, but that defense like that is not necessarily in line with VT strategy.
---Ok. I can see that. But then that might be a flaw....limiting your VT to just that one strategy.
I didn't say that. I'm talking about letting up because it is a "friendly spar".
This allows them to do things that otherwise would be shut down with "unfriendly" force.
---If you are controlling their center, off-balancing them to destroy their base, or trapping/tying them up then this shouldn't be an issue. If your strategy is to rely on over-whelming punches to knock them out, then yeah....it might be an issue.
I don't count on that. This just highlights the problem with a friendly spar and the negative effects it can have on VT.
In such an exchange, I'm not going to blast on them until they're out.
---But you can blast on them until the are off-balanced or falling can't you?
VT is not a defensive martial art. I didn't say I can't defend myself, though.
VT not working optimally as it should due to holding back does not mean I get beat up.
It just means I'm not using VT as it is intended and am sometimes forced to become too defensive because I'm being too friendly.
---I can see that. I guess that's why I feel that TWC works better in a sparring situation. It seems to have more strategies for the fight. That's not to say that it is more effective than WSLVT, just maybe more suited for an artifical sparring situation.
And my sparring abilities improved a lot as a result.
Have you faced the same boxer with the different approach?
WSLVT also uses flanking tactics, just very different from TWC.
Certainly, either would be better than WC with no idea of angling or tactical footwork whatsoever.
---Ok. I can see that. But then that might be a flaw....limiting your VT to just that one strategy.
It's not a flaw that VT doesn't work optimally when not used as intended.
I have experience in other styles better suited to the friendly exchange.
---If you are controlling their center, off-balancing them to destroy their base, or trapping/tying them up then this shouldn't be an issue. If your strategy is to rely on over-whelming punches to knock them out, then yeah....it might be an issue.
---But you can blast on them until the are off-balanced or falling can't you?
VT is not so friendly, and you can't "blast on" someone softly.
When going softly, unless you completely outclass someone, much of this won't work.
---I can see that. I guess that's why I feel that TWC works better in a sparring situation. It seems to have more strategies for the fight. That's not to say that it is more effective than WSLVT, just maybe more suited for an artifical sparring situation.
TWC has much that from a WSLVT point of view is too defensive and even (not intended to insult) arm-chasing.
Happy Tiger
04-16-2017, 10:19 AM
Although I guess it has already been suggested, VT fighters only real weakness is loathe to fall down. Since I grew up playing Hapkido this is not an issue for me. Still, a fighter in this day must be comfortable fighting from any position or orientation.Yet even on the ground VT has value .
The only other weakness I can think of is VT fighters can be flat footed and stubborn to their structure.
Have you faced the same boxer with the different approach?
---Unfortunately, not yet! He and I haven't been back to sparring sessions at the same time. It is an open group inviting anyone that wants to spar to show up, and not a school specific group.
WSLVT also uses flanking tactics, just very different from TWC.
---Ok. Now that sounds like it would be a good topic for discussion! I haven't seen anyone write about flanking tactics in WSLVT before.
VT is not so friendly, and you can't "blast on" someone softly.
---Gloves and headgear goes a long way towards "softening" the blast! No offense, but how you are talking is starting to sound no different from the guys that say "we don't spar because our style is too deadly!" ;)
TWC has much that from a WSLVT point of view is too defensive and even (not intended to insult) arm-chasing.
---Yeah, I can agree with that. When putting an emphasis on getting to the blindside there are sometimes extra movements and beats put in. Some of it I just ignore from the curriculum and don't do for that reason.
Happy Tiger
04-16-2017, 12:46 PM
Have you faced the same boxer with the different approach?
---Unfortunately, not yet! He and I haven't been back to sparring sessions at the same time. It is an open group inviting anyone that wants to spar to show up, and not a school specific group.
WSLVT also uses flanking tactics, just very different from TWC.
---Ok. Now that sounds like it would be a good topic for discussion! I haven't seen anyone write about flanking tactics in WSLVT before.
VT is not so friendly, and you can't "blast on" someone softly.
---Gloves and headgear goes a long way towards "softening" the blast! No offense, but how you are talking is starting to sound no different from the guys that say "we don't spar because our style is too deadly!" ;)
TWC has much that from a WSLVT point of view is too defensive and even (not intended to insult) arm-chasing.
---Yeah, I can agree with that. When putting an emphasis on getting to the blindside there are sometimes extra movements and beats put in. Some of it I just ignore from the curriculum and don't do for that reason.
Boxers can have amazing finesse and can be brutal fustigators. On of the toughest fighters I know is a South African bare knuckle boxer. This ****er always keeps me on my toes.He's hard as rock and not afraid to be hit hard.also
Something I can't always say of VT fighters.
Is there any flanking being used here? Because this looks like the "charging up the center with punches" and "standing right in front of the opponent" that I mentioned before. Maybe I'm missing something? Or is the clip just too short and doesn't show much?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axLY4vi8NTs
Or how about here? Any flanking being used here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn-gvvrBdrk
In contrast, here is some light drilling that demonstrates one way in which a TWC guy would seek to "flank" a boxer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCht6jcgCU&t=23s
Happy Tiger
04-16-2017, 06:11 PM
Flanking is a strategy that needs finesse. Flat footed foot work won't work on my side of the street.
---Unfortunately, not yet!
Would be best to note any improvement in sparring due to strategy change against the same competition that bested you last time.
WSLVT also uses flanking tactics, just very different from TWC.
---Ok. Now that sounds like it would be a good topic for discussion! I haven't seen anyone write about flanking tactics in WSLVT before.
I have talked about it many, many times.
---Gloves and headgear goes a long way towards "softening" the blast!
Which also changes the effect of VT.
If you dial back the aggressiveness to be friendly, plus add gloves and headgear, it will allow things to happen that would not happen full on and bareknuckled.
No offense, but how you are talking is starting to sound no different from the guys that say "we don't spar because our style is too deadly!"
Why? VT is simply designed to be used aggressively and is not suited the a light and friendly exchange.
You have already agreed with this here;
VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.
---Yes. That is a good point.
So, why now the mocking tone against a "good point" you have agreed with?
Is there any flanking being used here? Because this looks like the "charging up the center with punches" and "standing right in front of the opponent" that I mentioned before. Maybe I'm missing something? Or is the clip just too short and doesn't show much?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axLY4vi8NTs
Or how about here? Any flanking being used here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn-gvvrBdrk
If you don't know, why not just ask instead of going on your mission to disprove?
People are more willing to discuss with you when you enter discussion without a clear agenda.
In contrast, here is some light drilling that demonstrates one way in which a TWC guy would seek to "flank" a boxer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCht6jcgCU&t=23s
No comment.
I have talked about it many, many times.
---Sorry. I must have missed it.
So, why now the mocking tone against a "good point" you have agreed with?
---Really not trying to be "mocking." You had a good point, but like most of your points you tend to "over-state" them or take them to an extreme. Yes, Wing Chun is an aggressive system that is not really meant for a "friendly exchange." But that does not mean that you can't put on gloves and headgear and maintain a good amount of the aggressiveness and "unfriendliness" and still train it well in sparring.
If you don't know, why not just ask instead of going on your mission to disprove?
---I wasn't trying to disprove anything. I was asking YOU! And I provided some examples I could to see if you would point out where they may be using a flanking tactic. Are you now saying they are not? That's Ok if true, because I couldn't really see it myself. Do you have some clips you can share that show WSLVT guys using some flanking moves? I'm truly interested in how you approach this and how prominent a tactic it is in WSLVT.
People are more willing to discuss with you when you enter discussion without a clear agenda.
---I don't know how I could have asked the question any more clearly without you assuming I had an agenda. I thought providing some video clips would give us some common ground for discussion.
Yes, Wing Chun is an aggressive system that is not really meant for a "friendly exchange." But that does not mean that you can't put on gloves and headgear and maintain a good amount of the aggressiveness and "unfriendliness" and still train it well in sparring.
I also didn't say that.
I simply said I've been least pleased with my performance whenever I have not been as assertive as I normally would for the sake of friendliness.
---I wasn't trying to disprove anything. I was asking YOU! And I provided some examples I could to see if you would point out where they may be using a flanking tactic.
You didn't ask anything before you went to grab videos and say look, there's no flanking unlike like this TWC guy walking circles around an apparently blind opponent.
If you want to tell me what's what about VT, then you don't need comments from me.
Are you now saying they are not? That's Ok if true, because I couldn't really see it myself.
Obviously, you are not very observant.
You didn't ask anything before you went to grab videos and say look, there's no flanking unlike like this TWC guy walking circles around an apparently blind opponent.
If you want to tell me what's what about VT, then you don't need comments from me.
Geez! Do you really feel the need to turn EVERYTHING into an argument??? :confused:
I said this:
Now that sounds like it would be a good topic for discussion! ----And I apologize because I really didn't give you time to respond. So in my enthusiasm I said this:
Is there any flanking being used here? Because this looks like the "charging up the center with punches" and "standing right in front of the opponent" that I mentioned before. Maybe I'm missing something? Or is the clip just too short and doesn't show much?
I thought I was inviting you to discuss flanking tactics and providing some video as a "jumping off" point to make a comparison with what TWC does. I guess you interpreted that differently. Sorry if it came across as antagonistic.
I thought I was inviting you to discuss flanking tactics and providing some video as a "jumping off" point to make a comparison with what TWC does. I guess you interpreted that differently. Sorry if it came across as antagonistic.
If you don't know what you're looking for, randomly selecting videos to say you don't see what you think you're looking for is probably not the best way to start, and does come across as antagonistic, as opposed to genuine interest. But, alright, forget about it.
There is no "charging up the center with punches" unless as an error by an inexperienced practitioner.
There is also no "standing right in front of the opponent" unless for a particular reason in a drill, in which case there is no opponent, only a training partner.
VT flanking tactics are much more subtle than TWC.
VT uses tight angles to "cut in" along the side of an isosceles triangle to center, capturing space and taking up the opponent's position, in the process disrupting their balance and facing, and stifling their ability to effectively recover and counter.
A major difference is that to get to the "blindside" we are not taking wide, circular, evasive steps literally around the opponent, which is what TWC attempts in my view, and leaves too much space and focuses on trapping the one arm more than directing force and body mass through the opponent's core. Even if you are in a position poised to deal with the next shot, in my view, it affords the opponent too much space and freedom of movement to do so, as opposed to imposing pressure actually closing options to them.
I know you may not agree with my view of TWC's strategy and tactics, but this is how it is in relation to what I do.
In other words, to achieve flank, we are not turning ourselves around an opponent, but either turning them by "cutting the way" or allowing them to turn themselves by taking advantage of rotational punches, or forcing the error of overshooting. To the untrained eye, it may look as if we are staying in front of the opponent at times, but we are in fact always attacking to one presented flank or another. Our goal is to have our "two poles" directed at the opponent, while forcing theirs to face away by cutting in and taking space/closing options. Should they be able to come back the other way, we let them and take the other flank. So, they are always fighting to recover facing to get an effective counterattack in, while we are avoiding head-on confrontation always attacking the flanks.
This is one clip you've seen before, often used as an example because it is one of the more dynamic videos that shows this done very skilfully, including in a bit of sparring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbI1Q1j-d80
Of course it is VT vs VT, but while we're on the topic of effective counterstrategies, though I have faced many different styles, VT remains the most difficult to deal with despite facing it in training all the time. One would think familiarity might make it easier, but no. Other styles that have large, loose motions in comparison seem wide open compared to VT and are easier to land on since they like to exchange, whereas good VT will completely shutdown the attacks of other VT. There is no exchanging. One just bests the other. It is very demoralizing to face a skilled VT fighter.
If you don't know what you're looking for, randomly selecting videos to say you don't see what you think you're looking for is probably not the best way to start, and does come across as antagonistic, as opposed to genuine interest. But, alright, forget about it.
---Those were the best clips of WSLVT that featured "gloved up" more realistic training/drilling that I could find that weren't Chi Sau.
A major difference is that to get to the "blindside" we are not taking wide, circular, evasive steps literally around the opponent, which is what TWC attempts in my view, and leaves too much space and focuses on trapping the one arm more than directing force and body mass through the opponent's core.
---Wide, circular evasive steps....yes. The space left is used to advantage and is not a drawback. The purpose of trapping one arm is to prevent the opponent from being able to turn back towards you AND can be used to "rock" their core balance.
Even if you are in a position poised to deal with the next shot, in my view, it affords the opponent too much space and freedom of movement to do so, as opposed to imposing pressure actually closing options to them.
---As I have already described, the whole point is to move to their side and keep them from being able to re-face. They are not afforded the "freedom of movement" to turn back on you and deliver that next shot. Their options are closed to them by the trap preventing them from pivoting back towards you again, or the "jarring" their core to unbalance them, or converting to a Lop Sau that suddenly yanks them forward to off-balance amongst other options.
In other words, to achieve flank, we are not turning ourselves around an opponent, but either turning them by "cutting the way" or allowing them to turn themselves by taking advantage of rotational punches, or forcing the error of overshooting.
----This is also something done in CSL Wing Chun....they teach to stand your ground and turn the opponent, rather than turning around the opponent. Robert Chu says "a shift is a gift"....meaning that if the opponent tries to shift or pivot in front of you it is pretty easy to take their center and make them "over shift."
To the untrained eye, it may look as if we are staying in front of the opponent at times, but we are in fact always attacking to one presented flank or another.
---I see what you're saying....you're driving a wedge, just from slightly off-center rather than straight up the middle.
Our goal is to have our "two poles" directed at the opponent, while forcing theirs to face away by cutting in and taking space/closing options. Should they be able to come back the other way, we let them and take the other flank.
---This is the difference I think with TWC. TWC seeks to flank them so completely that they don't have the ability to "come back the other way." As I said above, the whole goal is to get to their "blindside" and prevent them from being able to turn back towards you easily. But that does involve a deeper step and being more completely to their side rather than "wedging" in from an angle. Just different tactics.
So, they are always fighting to recover facing to get an effective counterattack in, while we are avoiding head-on confrontation always attacking the flanks.
This is one clip you've seen before, often used as an example because it is one of the more dynamic videos that shows this done very skilfully, including in a bit of sparring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbI1Q1j-d80
---Yes, I was picturing this as I was reading your description. Now, not to split hairs, but one could argue that simply turning the opponent a bit so you are coming in at an angle just off of the center it not quite flanking. Flanking typically means to take the opponent at their side.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS709US709&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=flanking
---You are not technically getting to their side. You are talking about still coming from the front, just off-center at a bit of angle. But I can see that what you are describing is accomplishing a similar purpose.
Of course it is VT vs VT, but while we're on the topic of effective counterstrategies, though I have faced many different styles, VT remains the most difficult to deal with despite facing it in training all the time. One would think familiarity might make it easier, but no. Other styles that have large, loose motions in comparison seem wide open compared to VT and are easier to land on since they like to exchange, whereas good VT will completely shutdown the attacks of other VT. There is no exchanging. One just bests the other. It is very demoralizing to face a skilled VT fighter.
---Good summary! Thanks!
---Wide, circular evasive steps....yes. The space left is used to advantage and is not a drawback. The purpose of trapping one arm is to prevent the opponent from being able to turn back towards you AND can be used to "rock" their core balance.
I'm aware of the purpose. I'm saying from my point of view, it is a drawback. You may like it.
the whole point is to move to their side and keep them from being able to re-face. They are not afforded the "freedom of movement" to turn back on you and deliver that next shot. Their options are closed to them by the trap preventing them from pivoting back towards you again, or the "jarring" their core to unbalance them, or converting to a Lop Sau that suddenly yanks them forward to off-balance amongst other options.
In the heat of a fist fight, it is a bit optimistic to get all the way to someone's side and control them by their arm like that.
---I see what you're saying....you're driving a wedge, just from slightly off-center rather than straight up the middle.
As trained on dummy.
TWC seeks to flank them so completely that they don't have the ability to "come back the other way."
Circling all the way around to flank a reasonably skilled and uncooperative opponent so completely and keep them from turning back is probably nigh impossible, unless grappling; arm drag, body clinch.
Achieving similar orientation to the opponent while keeping distance and controlling from their arm with one hand while striking with the other is something I've been looking for in the many TWC clips and fight videos. Never seen it actually happen uncooperatively against a reasonably skilled opponent.
As I said above, the whole goal is to get to their "blindside" and prevent them from being able to turn back towards you easily. But that does involve a deeper step and being more completely to their side rather than "wedging" in from an angle.
It is no easy task to turn back toward us either, once we have cut in and taken up their balance and position.
We just don't fight force with force, and will at times let it go to take the other flank.
It's much more probable that you'll be able to take an angle by cutting them off and turning them to achieve close to chest-to-shoulder orientation, than to do so by circling around them. And really, all you need is that their weapons are not facing you while both of yours are attacking.
Now, not to split hairs, but one could argue that simply turning the opponent a bit so you are coming in at an angle just off of the center it not quite flanking. Flanking typically means to take the opponent at their side.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS709US709&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=flanking
---You are not technically getting to their side. You are talking about still coming from the front, just off-center at a bit of angle. But I can see that what you are describing is accomplishing a similar purpose.
Cutting in on one side or the other of the opponent's "triangle" is flanking, as opposed to fighting up the middle, point to point.
Getting to 90 degrees on in a fist fight and maintaining it for continuous attack is extremely optimistic.
If you can pull it off, more power to you. I would really love to see it, though.
I'm aware of the purpose. I'm saying from my point of view, it is a drawback. You may like it.
---Fair enough!
In the heat of a fist fight, it is a bit optimistic to get all the way to someone's side and control them by their arm like that.
---If you are picturing a boxer darting in and out, then maybe. But "in the heat of a fist fight", plenty of people come charging straight in and it becomes relatively easy!
Circling all the way around to flank a reasonably skilled and uncooperative opponent so completely and keep them from turning back is probably nigh impossible, unless grappling; arm drag, body clinch.
---Not really. As you have said about WSLVT....if you have actually trained it you start to appreciate better how it can work.
Achieving similar orientation to the opponent while keeping distance and controlling from their arm with one hand while striking with the other is something I've been looking for in the many TWC clips and fight videos. Never seen it actually happen uncooperatively against a reasonably skilled opponent.
---But the same could be said of all the WSLVT clips. I haven't seen your version of flanking being used against an uncooperative skilled opponent either. Its always against a fellow VT student. At least in that earlier clip of Rahsun he was showing it against an actual boxer, even though the guy wasn't trying to stop him.
It's much more probable that you'll be able to take an angle by cutting them off and turning them to achieve close to chest-to-shoulder orientation, than to do so by circling around them. And really, all you need is that their weapons are not facing you while both of yours are attacking.
---I think there is a time and place for both. TWC should work more on the approach you are talking about and not limit the "blindside" strategy to just the one approach.
Cutting in on one side or the other of the opponent's "triangle" is flanking, as opposed to fighting up the middle, point to point.
---As I pointed out before, that could be debated as you aren't really taking the flank by definition. But no big deal. I would call that "cutting the angle" rather than flanking. But as already noted, it is accomplishing similar things.
In the heat of a fist fight, it is a bit optimistic to get all the way to someone's side and control them by their arm like that.
---If you are picturing a boxer darting in and out, then maybe. But "in the heat of a fist fight", plenty of people come charging straight in and it becomes relatively easy!
Circling all the way around to flank a reasonably skilled and uncooperative opponent so completely and keep them from turning back is probably nigh impossible, unless grappling; arm drag, body clinch.
---Not really. As you have said about WSLVT....if you have actually trained it you start to appreciate better how it can work.
Ehh, I don't know...
I haven't been through the curriculum, but I have seen it in person.
It's the same stuff shown in various Youtube clips, and not difficult to understand.
It's just a wonder with all the available fight clips why it's never been seen if it's "relatively easy".
Can you honestly say you have achieved full on perpendicular position to an uncooperative and skilled opponent by just stepping around them and doing something to their arm and kept them there while attacking? Or has it been at best more of a 45 degree angle for a moment?
If yes to the former, more power to you, but like I said, I'd love to see it, because no one else in available fight clips I'm aware of has managed to pull it off.
---But the same could be said of all the WSLVT clips. I haven't seen your version of flanking being used against an uncooperative skilled opponent either. Its always against a fellow VT student. At least in that earlier clip of Rahsun he was showing it against an actual boxer, even though the guy wasn't trying to stop him.
You just saw one. The guy is a 6'3", strong, skilled instructor in his own right and was not being cooperative. He was being properly shutdown.
The exchange was entirely different from what was shown with that boxer who, as you say, wasn't trying to stop him.
It doesn't matter what style someone usually does if they aren't trying.
And it doesn't matter what style someone is doing if they are trying.
Cutting in on one side or the other of the opponent's "triangle" is flanking, as opposed to fighting up the middle, point to point.
---As I pointed out before, that could be debated as you aren't really taking the flank by definition. But no big deal. I would call that "cutting the angle" rather than flanking. But as already noted, it is accomplishing similar things.
Call it what you like. The definition of "to flank" I'm using is to attack the sides, and that is what we're doing if you imagine an isosceles triangle pointing toward you. It doesn't have to be to the extreme left or right, but it is not at all up the middle.
sanjuro_ronin
04-18-2017, 06:59 AM
As someone that has used boxing to fight VT guys: Angles and uppercuts.
As someone that has used MT and Kyokushin concepts to fight WT guys: Angled clinch and low kicks.
It is very easy to grapple WT guys that like to "trap" and "clinch", for obvious reasons.
Here is a clip of Phil Redmond explaining some of the angling used against a boxer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0E7erSZMxA
It's just a wonder with all the available fight clips why it's never been seen if it's "relatively easy".
---Same could be said of what you are describing. Oh wait....there are no fight clips! ;)
Can you honestly say you have achieved full on perpendicular position to an uncooperative and skilled opponent by just stepping around them and doing something to their arm and kept them there while attacking? Or has it been at best more of a 45 degree angle for a moment?
---Well yeah! I guess "skilled" is a relative term and in the "eye of the beholder", but yeah. If you have good footwork, when someone comes charging towards you it is relatively easy to step off of the line and flank them. Somewhat harder when that same person realizes this is a vulnerability and then doesn't comment to a forward pressing attack nearly as much.
You just saw one. The guy is a 6'3", strong, skilled instructor in his own right and was not being cooperative. He was being properly shutdown.
---That's not how it looked to me. He sure looked like he was being somewhat "cooperative." At one point Kurth actually backed off to give him the chance to press the initiative, like they were taking turns being the "winner."
guy b.
04-18-2017, 10:05 AM
Same could be said of what you are describing. Oh wait....there are no fight clips! ;)
It is a policy in PBWSL VT not to release fight clips. There is nothing stopping anyone from showing up and trying.
For a group that does release lots and lots of fight clips like TWC, it is unusual that a core tactical approach (maybe THE core tactical approach) is lacking from those fight clips.
Well yeah! I guess "skilled" is a relative term and in the "eye of the beholder", but yeah. If you have good footwork, when someone comes charging towards you it is relatively easy to step off of the line and flank them. Somewhat harder when that same person realizes this is a vulnerability and then doesn't comment to a forward pressing attack nearly as much
Against an aware opponent I think only possible while grabbing clothes, eg as in some types of karate. Unless you are super humanly fast.
That's not how it looked to me. He sure looked like he was being somewhat "cooperative." At one point Kurth actually backed off to give him the chance to press the initiative, like they were taking turns being the "winner."
Try and get there to train! I am sure it would be a good experience
Sean66
04-18-2017, 11:52 AM
Cutting off your opponent is difficult, and has to be "earned". That is why it is so central to our training.
In this video there are some good shots of Michael and Kai "cutting the way" in training and sparring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x201cZlr20&t=1s
Cutting off your opponent is difficult, and has to be "earned". That is why it is so central to our training.
In this video there are some good shots of Michael and Kai "cutting the way" in training and sparring.
Good clip Sean! And I think "cutting the way" is a better description than "flanking" for what is happening in that video. But again, like the other videos there was really no "uncooperative" exchanges happening there. But good training nonetheless!
It is a policy in PBWSL VT not to release fight clips.
Why is that? That just seems strange, and counterproductive. If you are doing good and effective things in sparring, why wouldn't you want people to know that and see that?? Doesn't PB realize he is putting you guys in a bad position? You go out all enthusiastic about your training, make big claims for how great it is, but can't show anything to back up all your big talk. That just makes his lineage look bad in the end. I guess he doesn't realize that???
dlcox
04-18-2017, 06:04 PM
Why is that? That just seems strange, and counterproductive. If you are doing good and effective things in sparring, why wouldn't you want people to know that and see that?? Doesn't PB realize he is putting you guys in a bad position? You go out all enthusiastic about your training, make big claims for how great it is, but can't show anything to back up all your big talk. That just makes his lineage look bad in the end. I guess he doesn't realize that???
If any ever do get out they will probably have "intentional errors" anyways. :rolleyes:
Happy Tiger
04-18-2017, 07:14 PM
If any ever do get out they will probably have "intentional errors" anyways. :rolleyes:, I have found some,... mabey many VT fighters to have glass jaws. Usually owing to a lack of real combat experience I recone. VT fighters spend too much time trying not to get hit in it's intricate technical voracity.l. Not realistic or likely in any kind of real fighting. If you are afraid of being hit hard, you've probably lost the fight already. Plus ,if you have the chin of a VT fighter under control you can pin them like a turtle. Meaning to actually have a hold of their face, understand?( just don't get bit, that happened to me once)... there is a science of physics demonstrated in combat that has 'uncertanty,' this is sub atomic law that.can help you or **** you as you wish for I'm
Happy Tiger
04-18-2017, 07:53 PM
I'm not criticizing but sometimes ya'll spend too much time dancing around technical issue. Were the meat of the problem is elsewhere.and I suggest this as a humble student.
Happy Tiger
04-18-2017, 09:40 PM
I'm not criticizing but sometimes ya'll spend too much time dancing around technical issue. Were the meat of the problem is elsewhere.and I suggest this as a humble student.my wife had said I can't write any more.
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1302217], I have found some,... mabey many VT fighters to have glass jaws. Usually owing to a lack of real combat experience I recone. VT fighters spend too much time trying not to get hit in it's intricate technical voracity.l. Not realistic or likely in any kind of real fighting. If you are afraid of being hit hard, you've probably lost the fight already. Plus ,if you have the chin of a VT fighter under control you can pin them like a turtle. Meaning to actually have a hold of their face, understand?( just don't get bit, that happened to me once)... there is a science of physics demonstrated in combat that has 'uncertanty,' this is sub atomic law that.can help you or **** you as you wishQUOTE]
Happy Tiger
04-19-2017, 04:37 AM
, I have found some,... mabey many VT fighters to have glass jaws. Usually owing to a lack of real combat experience I recone. VT fighters spend too much time trying not to get hit in it's intricate technical voracity.l. Not realistic or likely in any kind of real fighting. If you are afraid of being hit hard, you've probably lost the fight already. Plus ,if you have the chin of a VT fighter under control you can pin them like a turtle. Meaning to actually have a hold of their face, understand?( just don't get bit, that happened to me once)... there is a science of physics demonstrated in combat that has 'uncertanty,' this is sub atomic law that.can help you or **** you as you wish for I'm
Wing Chun fighters are way to dedicated too structure. Considering their structure is usuallyually crap.
---Well yeah! I guess "skilled" is a relative term and in the "eye of the beholder", but yeah. If you have good footwork, when someone comes charging towards you it is relatively easy to step off of the line and flank them.
Probably not something a skilled opponent would do. Only an angry idiot would come charging in like a bull and run right past you when you step off line.
---That's not how it looked to me. He sure looked like he was being somewhat "cooperative." At one point Kurth actually backed off to give him the chance to press the initiative, like they were taking turns being the "winner."
Exactly how it's supposed to appear!
As I said, a skilled VT practitioner will completely shutdown the other, making it perhaps seem as if the other person is not trying, but it is not for lack of trying that they end up looking that way!
Backing off is resetting, then reapplying the pressure.
I think "cutting the way" is a better description than "flanking" for what is happening in that video.
Cutting the way is tactics for achieving flank, which doesn't have to be extreme left or right, as that is not likely in a fist fight without grappling, certainly not by just stepping off line and doing a 3 stage attack on the one arm.
But again, like the other videos there was really no "uncooperative" exchanges happening there.
There are obvious cooperative parts, and other parts where the only cooperative thing about it is that they are wilfully engaging in VT drills together, but again you are then seeing people being shutdown effectively, not "cooperating". Not to mention the sparring bits.
Why is that? That just seems strange, and counterproductive. If you are doing good and effective things in sparring, why wouldn't you want people to know that and see that??
Probably doesn't care. He's not in it for the money or quantity of students. If someone is genuinely interested, they will make the effort to go check it out and probably end up being a more quality student than the critics who just stay at home or keep doing what they do.
There are also a ton of parasites who like to copy things without knowing better and ruin the system. Better to only show things outsiders can guess about but will get wrong unless they actually come and train. The doors are always open.
You may disagree with this approach, but I'm sure no one cares. In a way, it's quality control.
Happy Tiger
04-19-2017, 04:59 AM
Good to have a response
Happy Tiger
04-19-2017, 05:02 AM
Maybe we will touch arms some day
Probably not something a skilled opponent would do. Only an angry idiot would come charging in like a bull and run right past you when you step off line.
---As usual, you are greatly exaggerating for effect.
As I said, a skilled VT practitioner will completely shutdown the other, making it perhaps seem as if the other person is not trying, but it is not for lack of trying that they end up looking that way!
---Not at all clear that this is what is happening since it is always shown against a fellow WSLVT student. They may be "cooperating" more than even THEY are aware.
Probably doesn't care.
--I would think he would care about the reputation of his lineage. I would think he would not be happy how it has been represented by a small group posting on the forums.
He's not in it for the money or quantity of students. If someone is genuinely interested, they will make the effort to go check it out and probably end up being a more quality student than the critics who just stay at home or keep doing what they do.
---Someone that is "genuinely interested" is more likely to be impressed with clips showing good sparring/fighting that excessive amounts of Chi Sau.
There are also a ton of parasites who like to copy things without knowing better and ruin the system. Better to only show things outsiders can guess about but will get wrong unless they actually come and train. The doors are always open.
---That makes no sense at all. Showing all that Chi Sau and drilling footage is more likely to allow people to figure out what you are doing than showing effective sparring/fighting footage against someone other than fellow WSLVT. We all know that there is plenty that doesn't show up in fight footage, whereas you are actually high-lighting things in Chi Sau and drilling footage. Fight footage would show that WSLVT people can actually fight and use their system. It isn't going to teach much at all from the system to anyone.
You may disagree with this approach, but I'm sure no one cares. In a way, it's quality control.
---So "quality control" is allowing a bunch of yahoos to talk trash on the internet and insult everyone else while saying how wonderful the system is without having anything to really back it up??? :confused:
Probably not something a skilled opponent would do. Only an angry idiot would come charging in like a bull and run right past you when you step off line.
---As usual, you are greatly exaggerating for effect.
Not exaggerating one bit.
---Not at all clear that this is what is happening since it is always shown against a fellow WSLVT student. They may be "cooperating" more than even THEY are aware.
lol
--I would think he would care about the reputation of his lineage. I would think he would not be happy how it has been represented by a small group posting on the forums.
His lineage speaks for itself. I'm sure you are welcome to swing by.
I don't represent PB's lineage. You just like to single him out for some reason.
---Someone that is "genuinely interested" is more likely to be impressed with clips showing good sparring/fighting that excessive amounts of Chi Sau.
No one is out to impress anyone, and no one cares if you don't show up.
Showing all that Chi Sau and drilling footage is more likely to allow people to figure out what you are doing than showing effective sparring/fighting footage against someone other than fellow WSLVT.
lol, WTF? That's why you are still clueless.
you are actually high-lighting things in Chi Sau and drilling footage.
Things you completely misunderstand.
Fight footage would show that WSLVT people can actually fight and use their system. It isn't going to teach much at all from the system to anyone.
lol
So, if you're doing homework on your opponent, you wouldn't analyze their actual fight clips, but only their training drills?
Afraid they're gonna drill on you? That's why you are still clueless.
---So "quality control" is allowing a bunch of yahoos to talk trash on the internet and insult everyone else while saying how wonderful the system is without having anything to really back it up??? :confused:
Quality control is keeping a bunch of yahoos on the internet away from the system.
If you want it to be backed up, though, just pop in.
Happy Tiger
04-19-2017, 10:38 AM
Why is that? That just seems strange, and counterproductive. If you are doing good and effective things in sparring, why wouldn't you want people to know that and see that?? Doesn't PB realize he is putting you guys in a bad position? You go out all enthusiastic about your training, make big claims for how great it is, but can't show anything to back up all your big talk. That just makes his lineage look bad in the end. I guess he doesn't realize that??? I belong to WSL house via Sifu Li Man Kit. Seems many of my tribe publish tons of vids.I simply don't publish vids from an old rule never to show your fight. If you show me your fight, I have the chance to figure you out...No matter how 'good,' you are I will figure you out....Then your pooched .....plus I'm a very good fighter. A very hard fighter
Not exaggerating one bit.
---Reallly? I said nothing about "charging in like a bull and run right past you." You did! And that is an exaggeration!
lol
---Laugh all you want, but people drilling with friends and colleagues are just not as likely to fully commit to an exchange like someone form another style would. People drilling without gloves on aren't really trying to hit anyone. Subconsciously they can be holding back because they aren't going to try and hurt their friend....gloves or not. That is a real phenomenon. You can laugh it off all you want.
I don't represent PB's lineage. You just like to single him out for some reason.
---I already told you the reason. Weren't you paying attention?? I bring up PB because his lineage is the only one that seems to meet your approval. Whenever you post a video to at least try and support what you say it is of PB or someone in his lineage. Every time a video of a WSLVT person is posted that isn't from PB's lineage and that contradicts what you have been saying you note that branch of WSLVT isn't on the "approved" list. Ergo....PB lineage must be what you are talking about.
lol, WTF? That's why you are still clueless. Things you completely misunderstand.
---So you really believe that someone could watch all the Chi Sau and drills and see something repeated over and over and completely misunderstand it, yet they are going to figure out your system from watching free-sparring?? And you think I'm the one that is clueless?? :rolleyes:
So, if you're doing homework on your opponent, you wouldn't analyze their actual fight clips, but only their training drills?
---That works for boxing. But you have done your best to distance your WSLVT from boxing. Are you changing your tune now???
Quality control is keeping a bunch of yahoos on the internet away from the system.
---Then why are you posting at all??? :confused:
If you want it to be backed up, though, just pop in.
---This is an internet forum. It doesn't work that way in virtual reality from distant parts of the world. So if you are going to make claims, you need to find another way to back them up. In the virtual world, that typically means video. So if you can't back up your claims here, you shouldn't be making them as if they were such definitive facts. Discussion and conversation along the lines of "this is what we do" is fine. Trash talking others and saying how much better you are without being able to demonstrate it is not. That is what makes YOU a troll!
I belong to WSL house via Sifu Li Man Kit. Seems many of my tribe publish tons of vids.I simply don't publish vids from an old rule never to show your fight. If you show me your fight, I have the chance to figure you out...No matter how 'good,' you are I will figure you out....Then your pooched .....plus I'm a very good fighter. A very hard fighter
That's just silly HT! You really think someone from one of the forums that sees one of your fight videos is going to try and find you so that they can beat you up in a fight?
I haven't heard of Li Man Kit. Is he on LFJ's "approved list"? Have you been agreeing with everything LFJ and Guy have been writing? I'm betting that if you posted any of the "tons of video" from your tribe neither LFJ or Guy would be impressed! ;)
wckf92
04-19-2017, 05:18 PM
I haven't heard of Li Man Kit.
I hadn't either, but a quick search led to this
http://www.vingtsunforum.com/off-topic-52/sifu-li-man-kit/
Happy Tiger
04-19-2017, 07:37 PM
That's just silly HT! You really think someone from one of the forums that sees one of your fight videos is going to try and find you so that they can beat you up in a fight?
I haven't heard of Li Man Kit. Is he on LFJ's "approved list"? Have you been agreeing with everything LFJ and Guy have been writing? I'm betting that if you posted any of the "tons of video" from your tribe neither LFJ or Guy would be impressed! ;)
Well, show me your fight and I have the advantage. It's really just science.Bruce Lee spent a lot of his family money+1960 Seattle) watching other fighters figuring out their fightinmethodesdI. appreciate your respect. If you come to Van you can try my h and win or loose I'll buy Chinese Food I don't have an opinion on what is usually shared here because I am mearly a student. Perhaps a talented one ( my mom says so)
E
Happy Tiger
04-19-2017, 11:46 PM
That's just silly HT! You really think someone from one of the forums that sees one of your fight videos is going to try and find you so that they can beat you up in a fight?
I haven't heard of Li Man Kit. Is he on LFJ's "approved list"? Have you been agreeing with everything LFJ and Guy have been writing? I'm betting that if you posted any of the "tons of video" from your tribe neither LFJ or Guy would be impressed! ;)
Funny but that's already happened. Probably cause I got a big mouth.
That's why I don't post videos. They are all the same... a bunch of masters cutting a bean smaller and smaller.
I said nothing about "charging in like a bull and run right past you." You did! And that is an exaggeration!
You said; "If you have good footwork, when someone comes charging towards you it is relatively easy to step off of the line and flank them".
That describes what a matador does to a charging bull. No one but a drunk or angry idiot fights like that.
It is not even an "easy" task to cut someone off at acute angles, and you think you are going to achieve extreme flank on a skilled opponent using your good footwork?
---Laugh all you want, but people drilling with friends and colleagues are just not as likely to fully commit to an exchange like someone form another style would. People drilling without gloves on aren't really trying to hit anyone. Subconsciously they can be holding back because they aren't going to try and hurt their friend....gloves or not. That is a real phenomenon. You can laugh it off all you want.
Hmm, maybe you're right. Doesn't look like he trains hard or faces real pressure at all. They should totally go harder... :rolleyes:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/LFJ3/bloodykai_zpsukep3xhe.jpg
I bring up PB because his lineage is the only one that seems to meet your approval. Whenever you post a video to at least try and support what you say it is of PB or someone in his lineage.
Not at all the only one, and you have been told this.
He is simply the most prolific and his lineage has the most/best available videos.
---So you really believe that someone could watch all the Chi Sau and drills and see something repeated over and over and completely misunderstand it, yet they are going to figure out your system from watching free-sparring??
You have seen such videos repeatedly and still completely misunderstand it, so yes, obviously.
If you want to know how something is used in fighting, best to watch it used in fighting, not in abstract training drills without explanations. Again, obviously.
So, if you're doing homework on your opponent, you wouldn't analyze their actual fight clips, but only their training drills?
---That works for boxing. But you have done your best to distance your WSLVT from boxing. Are you changing your tune now???
Not at all. It is common sense.
Quality control is keeping a bunch of yahoos on the internet away from the system.
---Then why are you posting at all???
I enjoy thinking and talking about VT during downtime where I'm not physically training.
I know most of you will never step out of your comfort zone, but some will.
Discussion and conversation along the lines of "this is what we do" is fine. Trash talking others and saying how much better you are without being able to demonstrate it is not.
I don't trash talk or claim superiority. I engage in technical discussion. Pointing out perceived flaws is interpreted as "trash talking" to you and you take it personally. You hate to have flaws pointed out, which is strange because most people would be appreciative. I was when I held previous views on VT.
Happy Tiger
04-20-2017, 12:47 AM
[QUOTE=wckf92;1302270]I hadn't either, but a quick search led to this
http://www.vingtsunforum.com/off-topic-52/sifu-li-man-kit/[/
Hey , Thank you. I forgot about that post :) Hoi Sum Fu. (Happy Tiger) no ones called me that in a while. At least not in Chinese. Sifu Li Man Kit has been and always will be a positive and strong infuence on my fighting method .He is a great and quiet man that I respect very much. I am a lucky Tiger having worked for the baby sister of GM Leung Ting at Kuen Way Martial Arts. This gave me lots of opportunities to both train with and fight many very tough customers.... Not Always winning. )
You said; "If you have good footwork, when someone comes charging towards you it is relatively easy to step off of the line and flank them".
That describes what a matador does to a charging bull. No one but a drunk or angry idiot fights like that.
---"charging towards you" is not the same thing as "run right past you." If they ran right past me, I wouldn't have to do anything...now would I? You can't even admit when you've made an glaringly obvious mis-statement.
It is not even an "easy" task to cut someone off at acute angles, and you think you are going to achieve extreme flank on a skilled opponent using your good footwork?
---Sure. That's one of the things we train towards.
Hmm, maybe you're right. Doesn't look like he trains hard or faces real pressure at all. They should totally go harder... :rolleyes:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/LFJ3/bloodykai_zpsukep3xhe.jpg
--That picture proves nothing. We don't know how he ended up bloodied. No one in any video you've provided has ever come close to that kind of contact. :rolleyes:
Not at all the only one, and you have been told this.
He is simply the most prolific and his lineage has the most/best available videos.
---And you've never provided a single other name for your "approved list."
If you want to know how something is used in fighting, best to watch it used in fighting, not in abstract training drills without explanations. Again, obviously.
---If that's true, then I guess your system must not be as advanced and as sophisticated as you would like everyone to believe! Because free-fighting/sparring typically ends up showing only basic techniques. The people that are good at are the ones that are very good at those basic techniques. You haven't noticed that? It works for watching a boxer because boxing is relatively straight-forward and essentially a matter of getting very good at those basic techniques. Yet WSVLT has 3 empty hand forms and a dummy form that have no applications but that teach abstract concepts for fighting. That has to be a lot of material! And someone is going to be able to figure out all those abstract concepts from watching a clip of free-fighting/sparring??? :confused:
Not at all. It is common sense.
---Uh no. You've just equated WSLVT to Boxing in that it is simple enough to figure out just from watching a few sparring clips.
I enjoy thinking and talking about VT during downtime where I'm not physically training.
---Yeah, I think you just enjoy arguing. You seek to turn nearly every discussion into an argument.
I don't trash talk or claim superiority.
---There's that lie again! :rolleyes:
Pointing out perceived flaws is interpreted as "trash talking" to you and you take it personally.
---Pointing out perceived flaws and then refusing to recognize or acknowledge points people make that explain the "flaw" you think you see, and then resorting to name-calling and insulting comments is "trash talking" and "trolling."
---"charging towards you" is not the same thing as "run right past you."
If you simply step off line and end up at an extreme flank, they have effectively run right past you. Too bad that has never happened.
It is not even an "easy" task to cut someone off at acute angles, and you think you are going to achieve extreme flank on a skilled opponent using your good footwork?
---Sure. That's one of the things we train towards.
I know you train toward it, but...
--That picture proves nothing. We don't know how he ended up bloodied.
lol You're right. You can tell by the bloody knuckles that he must have punched himself.
---And you've never provided a single other name for your "approved list."
I have every time, and you will still turn around and lie a couple weeks/months later.
If you want to know how something is used in fighting, best to watch it used in fighting, not in abstract training drills without explanations. Again, obviously.
---If that's true, then I guess your system must not be as advanced and as sophisticated as you would like everyone to believe!
Never claimed the fighting method to be "advanced" or "sophisticated". It's quite simple, really.
Because free-fighting/sparring typically ends up showing only basic techniques. The people that are good at are the ones that are very good at those basic techniques. You haven't noticed that?
Good VT is just good basics.
WSVLT has 3 empty hand forms and a dummy form that have no applications but that teach abstract concepts for fighting. That has to be a lot of material! And someone is going to be able to figure out all those abstract concepts from watching a clip of free-fighting/sparring??? :confused:
You will not understand the training system without it explained to you, but the fighting method is much more simple than the development process.
You've just equated WSLVT to Boxing in that it is simple enough to figure out just from watching a few sparring clips.
It's the same with any effective martial art. Any fighting method that is overly complex is unlikely to work.
---Yeah, I think you just enjoy arguing. You seek to turn nearly every discussion into an argument.
10286
---Pointing out perceived flaws and then refusing to recognize or acknowledge points people make that explain the "flaw" you think you see,
You take further offense when your failed explanations are not accepted and the flaw in your reasoning is pointed out.
Still arguing? :rolleyes: Ok. Go on arguing with yourself. :cool:
wckf92
04-20-2017, 04:27 AM
Hmm, maybe you're right. Doesn't look like he trains hard or faces real pressure at all. They should totally go harder... :rolleyes:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/LFJ3/bloodykai_zpsukep3xhe.jpg
Is the bloodied up guy kurth and the other guy his sifu?
Is the bloodied up guy kurth and the other guy his sifu?
No. It's MK's student. MK's teacher is PB.
wckf92
04-20-2017, 04:39 AM
No. It's MK's student. MK's teacher is PB.
Thx. MK's student is the guy on the left or the right?
Thx. MK's student is the guy on the left or the right?
Both. .....
Happy Tiger
04-20-2017, 06:52 AM
[QUOTE=wckf92;1302270]I hadn't either, but a quick search led to this
http://www.vingtsunforum.com/off-topic-52/sifu-li-man-kit/[/
Hey , Thank you. I forgot about that post :) Hoi Sum Fu. (Happy Tiger) no ones called me that in a while. At least not in Chinese. Sifu Li Man Kit has been and always will be a positive and strong infuence on my fighting method .He is a great and quiet man that I respect very much. I am a lucky Tiger having worked for the baby sister of GM Leung Ting at Kuen Way Martial Arts. This gave me lots of opportunities to both train with and fight many very tough customers.... Not Always winning. ) one of the greatest quotes my sifu ever shared was ' If you've never lost a fight you've likely been fighting bums"
Happy Tiger
04-20-2017, 06:55 AM
Is the bloodied up guy kurth and the other guy his sifu?
Nice pic.Tuff Fighter
guy b.
04-20-2017, 07:29 AM
I have every time, and you will still turn around and lie a couple weeks/months later
Don't be too hard on KPM, those guys were Chinese. Maybe they all sound the same to KPM and he forgets them?
Don't be too hard on KPM, those guys were Chinese. Maybe they all sound the same to KPM and he forgets them?
Interesting that neither of you have volunteered any names now, when the conversation is current and it would be indicated. No, you prefer to keep obfuscating and diverting. :rolleyes:
Happy Tiger
04-20-2017, 09:28 AM
Don't be too hard on KPM, those guys were Chinese. Maybe they all sound the same to KPM and he forgets them?it sounds crazy but one way to 'get VT gung fu is to learn to speak Cantonese.I don't know why that is so but it is. Much like most exotic knolwage.There are many ideas and sentiment that cannot be translated into any other language. Wish I'm sure apply to all language.but I only speak English and Cantonese
Happy Tiger
04-20-2017, 09:45 AM
it sounds crazy but one way to 'get VT gung fu is to learn to speak Cantonese.I don't know why that is so but it is. Much like most exotic knolwage.There are many ideas and sentiment that cannot be translated into any other language. Wish I'm sure apply to all language.but I only speak English and Cantonese
You will surely grow if you consider this....I really hate spell check.😀
Happy Tiger
04-20-2017, 10:10 AM
You will surely grow if you consider this....I really hate spell check.😀and don't call me Shirley.
Sean66
04-20-2017, 10:55 AM
In the photo posted is Julian Bosawe and Kai Bremmekamp. Both students of MK who also teach their own groups.
Training with MK is intense, and getting busted up a bit is part and parcel of it. Kai had to have surgery on his chin from getting hit there so often. Sparring with the knives also led to more than a few bloody sessions between Kai and MK, despite using protective gear.
In the photo posted is Julian Bosawe and Kai Bremmekamp. Both students of MK who also teach their own groups.
Training with MK is intense, and getting busted up a bit is part and parcel of it. Kai had to have surgery on his chin from getting hit there so often. Sparring with the knives also led to more than a few bloody sessions between Kai and MK, despite using protective gear.
Then why no free fighting/sparring videos Sean? Why no videos of one of the PBWSLVT guys doing that to someone outside of the family in an open competitive format? Do you think everyone is going to figure out your secrets from such footage as well? :confused:
Sean66
04-20-2017, 02:52 PM
Well, MK and Kai have uploaded videos with sparring sequences in them (VT sparring, of course). I've also uploaded videos with a few sparring (also cross sparring) sequences.
As far as competition, MK doesn't train for that. It doesn't interest him. The PBWSLVT crowd neither, for the most part. There have been a few PBVT people who have entered various outsider MMA competitions or other open-style competitions, however. I'm all for entering competitions and am trying to get my students interested in doing some Pancreas competitions here in France. The lack of a competitive culture in CMA (in general) is a big problem in my opinion.
Well, MK and Kai have uploaded videos with sparring sequences in them (VT sparring, of course). I've also uploaded videos with a few sparring (also cross sparring) sequences.
As far as competition, MK doesn't train for that. It doesn't interest him. The PBWSLVT crowd neither, for the most part. There have been a few PBVT people who have entered various outsider MMA competitions or other open-style competitions, however. I'm all for entering competitions and am trying to get my students interested in doing some Pancreas competitions here in France. The lack of a competitive culture in CMA (in general) is a big problem in my opinion.
Thanks Sean. You seem to be saying something different than the dynamic duo's "fight clips aren't allowed." And I gotta say I respect you a WHOLE lot more than the other two because you do post video of yourself and your guys. And you don't trash talk other people's Wing Chun.
I'm hoping to see some video of your guys cleaning up at some Pancrase competitions in the future!
You seem to be saying something different than the dynamic duo's "fight clips aren't allowed."
PB requests schools in his organization not to publish sparring clips.
MK and those under him are not part of PB's organization and can do what they want.
And you don't trash talk other people's Wing Chun.
He doesn't often comment on other WC.
The problem is when people do comment on your WC, even as politely as possible, you take personal offense to it.
I can only suggest you try to be a little more objective. Nothing is ever about you personally.
PB requests schools in his organization not to publish sparring clips.
MK and those under him are not part of PB's organization and can do what they want.
He doesn't often comment on other WC.
The problem is when people do comment on your WC, even as politely as possible, you take personal offense to it.
I can only suggest you try to be a little more objective. Nothing is ever about you personally.
You are so full of BS. :rolleyes: "Commenting" on what you see in someone else's Wing Chun and talking about how it is different from what you do is one thing. Ignoring someone's counterpoints, refusing to believe what they say, and turning everything into an argument is something else!!! You are so smug and have such an air of superiority every time you engage in a discussion. Just look around. It isn't just me that has a problem with how you post!
"Commenting" on what you see in someone else's Wing Chun and talking about how it is different from what you do is one thing. Ignoring someone's counterpoints, refusing to believe what they say, and turning everything into an argument is something else!!!
I make an effort to address every counterpoint, one by one, and will not just agree if it is invalid, or believe something just because you say it.
That may seem like "turning everything into an argument", but it is nothing more than technical discussion and a different perspective.
Again, though, it is purely technical, nothing personal.
You are good. You are knowledgeable. You are a respectable forum sifu. :)
I make an effort to address every counterpoint, one by one, and will not just agree if it is invalid, or believe something just because you say it.
And yet you expect all of us to believe things just because YOU say it! You are really something else! :rolleyes:
And yet you expect all of us to believe things just because YOU say it!
Not at all.
I engage in detailed technical discussion, describing exactly what I see/think and why.
I even take the time to make detailed diagrams for you.
Then when your argument comes to the end of its road you call me a bully and get all;
10287
Not at all.
I engage in detailed technical discussion, describing exactly what I see/think and why.
I even take the time to make detailed diagrams for you.
Then when your argument comes to the end of its road you call me a bully and get all;
That's really funny! :rolleyes: Because there is no such thing as an "argument comes to the end of its road" with you! You would continue to argue forever! You think people giving up means you have won some kind of an argument, when all it really means is that people conclude that you are such a smug and dogmatic person that there is no point continuing! But whatever dude. Keep on arguing with yourself! :cool:
You think people giving up means you have won some kind of an argument, when all it really means is that people conclude that you are such a smug and dogmatic person that there is no point continuing!
With you, arguments usually come to an end when you have essentially asked us to forget everything that has been demonstrated and just believe you.
When that happens, you fly into a tantrum and destroy the technical discussion of thread, hoping to bury everything in pages behind us, and if at MT, get personal enough to get the thread locked.
With you, arguments usually come to an end when you have essentially asked us to forget everything that has been demonstrated and just believe you.
When that happens, you fly into a tantrum and destroy the technical discussion of thread, hoping to bury everything in pages behind us, and if at MT, get personal enough to get the thread locked.
:rolleyes:
guy b.
04-21-2017, 11:04 AM
:rolleyes:
When a training history is as threadbare as yours, it is not surprising that delivering technical detail in conversations is difficult or impossible.
The hilarious thing is that you continue to bite the hand that feeds you. I have never seen a more sad case of ego defeating ambition.
When a training history is as threadbare as yours, it is not surprising that delivering technical detail in conversations is difficult or impossible.
The hilarious thing is that you continue to bite the hand that feeds you. I have never seen a more sad case of ego defeating ambition.
:rolleyes: This just gets funnier and funnier! You guys are something else! Two of a kind! :p
Happy Tiger
04-21-2017, 02:30 PM
:rolleyes: This just gets funnier and funnier! You guys are something else! Two of a kind! :p
You know what? I am totally outta here. I come not to teach but to learn.I share my experience once and awhile maybe just out o conciet. You guys are supposed to be some of the best, yet you bicker like little old ladies at a bus stop.
Think of the students tuning in to this site and picking up this crap. Even the quiet ones that respond so bored and sardonic oh, aren't we big sticks. This is not Gung Fu I was taught. To many Chiefs not enough Natives.... I'm out. I will say you have always been respectful to me but Sweet Jesus why do you biitch on things can't be solved on paper. See you in Vancouver PM me if you really want to get together.
.
You know what? I am totally outta here. I come not to teach but to learn.I share my experience once and awhile maybe just out o conciet. You guys are supposed to be some of the best, yet you bicker like little old ladies at a bus stop.
Think of the students tuning in to this site and picking up this crap. Even the quiet ones that respond so bored and sardonic oh, aren't we big sticks. This is not Gung Fu I was taught. To many Chiefs not enough Natives.... I'm out. I will say you have always been respectful to me but Sweet Jesus why do you biitch on things can't be solved on paper. See you in Vancouver PM me if you really want to get together.
.
Well HT, if more people would speak up and call them on their BS at times like this then it wouldn't seem so much like a one-sided argument. Just check the other threads where other people have started speaking up. Don't put up with their BS, speak up and that would help shut down a lot of the bickering. If they got the message loud and clear that trash talking other people's Wing Chun and making claims they either can't or won't back up isn't acceptable, then maybe we wouldn't have long drawn out bickering threads like this. They think that are speaking God's honest truth from the Gospel of Wong and are doing nothing wrong. And when people don't say anything, it just reinforces their belief. Sorry, but I usually can't stay silent about that. If more and more people would also speak up, then maybe they would get the message. Don't you think?
You've been reading the threads haven't you? If you have you'll see I've been repeatedly called a liar, a troll, a moron, autistic, and a psychopathic *******. And for what you might ask? Disagreeing with their dogmatically held beliefs! That's all!
Now just sit back and watch the replies. You'll see denial, redirection, obfuscation, and likely more name-calling. They most assuredly will try to turn it all around and blame it all on me.
So don't leave. Stay and refuse to put up with the BS! ;)
Happy Tiger
04-21-2017, 07:06 PM
Well HT, if more people would speak up and call them on their BS at times like this then it wouldn't seem so much like a one-sided argument. Just check the other threads where other people have started speaking up. Don't put up with their BS, speak up and that would help shut down a lot of the bickering. If they got the message loud and clear that trash talking other people's Wing Chun and making claims they either can't or won't back up isn't acceptable, then maybe we wouldn't have long drawn out bickering threads like this. They think that are speaking God's honest truth from the Gospel of Wong and are doing nothing wrong. And when people don't say anything, it just reinforces their belief. Sorry, but I usually can't stay silent about that. If more and more people would also speak up, then maybe they would get the message. Don't you think?
You've been reading the threads haven't you? If you have you'll see I've been repeatedly called a liar, a troll, a moron, autistic, and a psychopathic *******. And for what you might ask? Disagreeing with their dogmatically held beliefs! That's all!
Now just sit back and watch the replies. You'll see denial, redirection, obfuscation, and likely more name-calling. They most assuredly will try to turn it all around and blame it all on me.
So don't leave. Stay and refuse to put up with the BS! ;)
I hear ya.Ive just been crabby lately
When a training history is as threadbare as yours, it is not surprising that delivering technical detail in conversations is difficult or impossible.
The hilarious thing is that you continue to bite the hand that feeds you. I have never seen a more sad case of ego defeating ambition.
Right. He sure is resistant to information for someone with no regular training experience, only a few private lessons here and there in this and that, then online training, and who bounces between methods not fully learned upon realization that they don't work, and ends up trying to make something work by combining things that don't.
guy b.
04-22-2017, 12:31 AM
Well HT, if more people would speak up and call them on their BS at times like this then it wouldn't seem so much like a one-sided argument
He's not taking sides you twit. He's just complaining about the constant argument, which I agree is not a desirable thing. If you are happy to end your mission against WSL VT then there will be no argument, simple as that.
If you are happy to end your mission against WSL VT then there will be no argument, simple as that.
Yup. I enjoy sharing and technical discussion, but every one gets derailed with complaints about VT even when VT is not mentioned.
Right. He sure is resistant to information for someone with no regular training experience, only a few private lessons here and there in this and that, then online training, and who bounces between methods not fully learned upon realization that they don't work, and ends up trying to make something work by combining things that don't.
Perfect example of...."if you can't deny the message, then attack the person"!! And you said that I make it personal??? :rolleyes:
HT, this is exactly the kind of BS I was referring to. Yet seldom does anyone speak up and just say...."cut that crap out, it is not acceptable!"
Perfect example of...."if you can't deny the message, then attack the person"!! And you said that I make it personal??? :rolleyes:
What message? We aren't even discussing anything anymore. That ended when you "denied the message and attacked the person".
guy b.
04-23-2017, 04:14 PM
Yup. I enjoy sharing and technical discussion, but every one gets derailed with complaints about VT even when VT is not mentioned.
Me too. I wish we could avoid these attacks and instead use the time to share and discuss, instead of constantly having to defend VT.
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