Yi leading the Qi vs. Li leading the Qi

[Fu-Pow]

For anyone that has not read the Taiji classics there is a passage in there about the Taiji being different than other martial arts because the "Yi leads the Qi instead of the Li leading the Qi."

Roughly. Qi refers to internal energy. Yi refers to the mind. Li refers to the strength.

This may be one of the most confusing passages for westerners to understand because understanding the terms Qi, Li and Yi means that you must have a background in Chinese language and the cultural context of that language.

Through my own experience in Hung Ga and Choy Lay Fut I have noticed that the movements have more tension than in Taiji. This tension is not only used as a means of locomotion and to generate power but is used to protect the bodies striking surfaces. It is a kind of "bouncing" power. You can deflect attacks by bouncing them with slight muscle tension. (If you did not, especially in the fore arms you would be taking or giving strikes directly on to unprotected bone!!!)

Although I don't know the whole Hung Ga Iron Wire set I do know pieces of it. Again it seems that muscle tension (coordinated with the breath) is used to protect the body from attack. In Karate it is called San Jin. Iron Wire is a bit more complicated but I believe the general idea is the same.

Is this is what is meant by the Li leading the Chi? Muscular strength leading energy?

And, if so, then what does it mean for the Yi to lead the Chi. And how is that used to an advantage as far as fighting?

Any experiences people can share are appreciated.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[gazza99]

Good question fu-pow, and the answer may anger the hung-gar people that think the iron wire is "internal".

But the fact is that when you try and use the li "strength" to lead the qi it doesnt really work out all that well to say the least. You are blocking your own qi with the tension. That is why the classics tell us to use the Yi (intent of the mind) to direct it instead. Of course there may be negative side effects from doing qi building practices and then tensing up, but Ill let the TCM people explain that one.....(your cue chris M.)

"And, if so, then what does it mean for the Yi to lead the Chi. And how is that used to an advantage as far as fighting? "

The advantage is of course you are able to better input adverse-qi into your opponent, and of course generate more power. If your structure is good, and the Yi is properly directing the qi to the arm or something, you should not need to tense up the muscles to protect the arm. I believe just doing qi-gong and taiji forms allow enough qi flow to protect your arms and hands without a whole lot of extra intent put into protecting them.

I beleive some call using the Yi to protect you with qi Golden bell training. I personally dont think I have ever used it directly in a fight, as I do not know if my qi surplus is up that high yet. Also the structure I use, and the techniques I have used in self-defense have not presented the need to direct qi to any vulnerable spots.
I do however have one experiance where perhaps I used the Yi to direct Qi AFTER I had injured my hand. I was doing a traing drill with a student, it was a blocking drill, the student had to respond without thinking, I got lazidazicall about the shots at him since he was not defending well enough, so I slowed down a bit, well he started doing better and he jammed my hand while he blocked, my hand was not fully closed so It was extremely painfull, I thought from the pain something was broken. Instantly I dropped into a qi-gong posture and used the Yi or intent to drive more energy (qi) to the hand in hopes it would help the pain. Instantly the pain was gone, my hand felt alot warmer than the other one, and indeed I could open and close it without any pain!I supppose its just one of those things you have to experiance to believe? Anyhow thats all the info I think to offer at this time,
hope that helps
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[[Censored]]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011112/hl/workout.html

Monday November 12 1:47 PM ET
Imagined Workout Can Up Muscle Strength: Study
By Joene Hendry

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - People can strengthen their muscles by
imagining that they are exercising them, according to study findings
presented Sunday at the Society for Neuroscience's annual meeting in
San Diego, California.

``Just thinking about exercise can help maintain muscle strength,''
Dr. Vinoth Ranganathan of the Cleveland Clinic Foundation in Ohio
told Reuters Health.

Ranganathan and his colleagues decided to test whether an imaginary
workout could build strength. Past studies have shown that exercise
training on one side of the body produces results on the other side,
suggesting that the brain's signal to the unexercised part of the
body is increased even though actual exercise doesn't occur.

To investigate, the Ohio researchers divided 30 healthy young adults
into three groups. One group imagined using their little finger
muscle, one group imagined using their elbow flexor muscle and the
third group did no imaginary exercise. The ``exercises'' were
performed for 15 minutes a day, 5 days a week for 12 weeks.

``We asked the subjects to think as strongly as they could about
moving the muscle being tested, to make the imaginary movement as
real as they could,'' Ranganathan said in a prepared statement. An
instrument was used during the exercise sessions to make sure that
the study participants were not actually moving their muscles.

Muscle strength was measured before, during and after the training
sessions. Among those who imagined moving their pinky, the finger's
muscle strength increased by 35%. Elbow strength in the second group
increased 13.4%. Those who did not do any imaginary exercise showed
no muscle strength gain.

The researchers also found highly visible brain signals in recordings
of the brain's electrical activity-electroencephalograms--performed
while the study participants were doing the mental exercises. Post-
training brain scans found greater and more focused activity in the
brain's prefrontal cortex when compared with scans taken before
training.

These findings suggest that the study participants' strength gains
were due to improvements in the brain's ability to signal muscle, the
investigators explain.

A follow-up study is under way in healthy people aged 65 and older to
determine whether the method might help them, Ranganathan told
Reuters Health.

Then, the researchers hope to use the mental training in stroke and
spinal cord injury patients, he added.

``We believe that anyone who has difficulty doing physical exercises
can use our mental training method to improve the muscle strength
they have lost or maintain the muscle strength they have,''
Ranganathan added in the statement.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Interesting question, very hard to explain.

the short answer is no.

i wouldn't call myself an experinced person, I’m sure there are many here who could explain it or talk about it much clearer and deeper.

This is what I feel and experience it to mean at this time.

This is a very key and central component of TC practice. It is thought that any action is preceded by the thought of doing it. Will to do it.

With the will comes the impulse to move. there is energy associated with the impulse. (chi)
When I speak of energy its not the kind that people think about as being able to move some one by overcoming there muscular tension.

This is different more like a field or electric current for me it feels like an electric current traveling inside my body or to a point that I direct it to. Different people will feel different things. At some point you be able to feel sense it in other people.

The main point is that it has nothing to do with tension this is very different although some arts manifest the chi in this way.

So how dose this help you in MA.

Imagine if you could hear what a person was going to do before they did it, even before it became a clear thought.

I think many people have felt something like he/she is going to kick or hit me. It’s much finer then reading the body (intent) or by feeling applied pressure although this is a very basic beginning point.
Again for me it feels like something before it happens, I feel the direction and power and help it/ attract it (leading is following, following is leading) what the feeling is I can’t put into words.

This allows a person to hear the idea of a force about to be manifested and connect with it, when it is spent and starts to retract you add to it. Sounds simple but we are talking about the ability to change with the intention of the other using just a touch. This is what gives TC it’s softness and power. The ability to change and follow. This is also why tension is to be avoided something that is tense can not change has only one direction.


The idea of pulling a chair out from someone about to sit down or suddenly opening a door some one was pushing comes to mind, in TC what we can do is to help the person to fall in either direction. If it’s the door and they start fall when I open and then pull back I follow, if it’s the chair and they start to save themselves and stand up I follow. In each case I help them to do what they want. In fighting they want to hit me it’s the same idea depends on your level when, where and how you use their energy.

Really look at a lot of what is called fajing. Most look like some body really applying a lot of force to do it.
Real ability of fajing looks fake, people don’t understand how. Its because of the use of the others force to uplift, push or make jump back (I would use bounce out but I don’t quite think this is correct term.) there is a sit on YI quan, many people question what the teacher is doing because they can’t understand how. It looks fake. I should say not in accordance with their ideas or experience of movement.


This is what I think and feel at this time; yes I can make a person fall with out using force.

good question, very, very hard i think to really do. takes a lot of work.

:)

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Really look at a lot of what is called fajing. Most look like some body really applying a lot of force to do it.
Real ability of fajing looks fake, people don’t understand how. Its because of the use of the others force to uplift, push or make jump back (I would use bounce out but I don’t quite think this is correct term.) [/quote]

Yes, I agree with you there. There is a guy at our school who is learning Taiji from another teacher than mine. He has showed me some of his Taiji and it looks totally wrong. He is basically doing a kung fu type of movement slowly (ie using hip and shoulder muscle). It is very clear at my Taiji school that Taiji and kung fu are very different.

"Hard on the inside soft on the outside."

That's another confusing statement. Seems to me that people confuse this with "soft on the outside, soft on the inside."

Would you agree that most of the movement of in Taiji happens within the torso where you can't see it?

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[bamboo_ leaf]

Wow,

You ask some very hard questions. This is good for here.

needle in cotton
Aikido uses this: take your thumb and forefinger make a circle.
Have some one try to pull them apart use tension as you do this to keep them togeather.
They should be able to easily pull them apart.

Now try the same thing this time relax and think of an iron ring. Have them try it when you can feel this idea in your thumb and forefinger. They shouldn’t be able to pull them apart.

Really relax when you do this but have a strong YI, this doesn’t mean that the circle is ridged.


Yes when they say your hands don’t move by themselves they really mean they don’t move by themselves. It sounds easy until you try it.

luck in your training

:)

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[Daniel Madar]

The concept of Yi is very slippery.

You can forcefully direct your chi, and many people feel this is the use of Yi, but I do not agree.

When you move your finger, do you tell your finger "Move. Move! MOVE!!!"? No, you finger simply moves, seemingly of it's own volition, unconsciously, but according to your will.

This to me is how the Yi for leading chi should operate as well. The form defines the movement, but Yi makes the movement full. Without the Yi, the form and movement has only Li.

Crap, I sound like a ****ed mystic.

Merciless is Mercy.

[bamboo_ leaf]

A note of warning concerning the finger: if you have a relative and they ask you to pull it.
Don’t.

Warning over.

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[GLW]

Daniel,

actually that was the closest thing I have read to right on the subject.

[Daniel Madar]

Talking about this stuff ain't easy.

Thanks GLW, I developed that one out of a lot of frustrated internet forum posts.

Next we can move on to the "Feeling chi" vs "Sticking your hand in a fire" comparison.

Merciless is Mercy.

[PlasticSquirrel]

some people call using li to guide qi "wai dan" (external elixir), and using the yi to guide the qi "nei dan". i personally don't, because "dan" is used too loosely, and it is not that great of a description. i will use it here, though.

wai dan, in my experience, is far better for beginners, and it produces better effects in them from the start. it is practiced not by tensing the muscles as we conventionally think, but rather slightly tensing them. this signals for qi to come to the tensed area. tensing them too much is bad, though, because qi will stagnate. if you do it right, there are no problems with using tension to move qi. if you don't progress to nei dan, though, there will be problems with muscle over-development. nei dan is natural progression, and to use wai dan consistantly would be unnatural.

nei dan is the natural progression. once you have a good grasp of qi and can direct it with yi (mind-intention), then the effects will be better for you. as stated before, though, you shouldn't use your imagination. you need to will qi from one place to the next, or just to the next for that matter, because it will automatically relocate itself. whatever you do, though, you will always control qi with the muscles a little bit, and it will always flow along with the form. if it didn't, you would have serious problems.

tid sin kuen is a great form, and i personally think that it is deeper than many "internal" forms. it's methods are different, but it's effects are great. if your iron wire is really good, then you have no need for golden bell or iron palm. i would love to learn the form someday, just to know it. the whole concept of using different types of sounds to supply the different internal organs is really neat. the methods of practicing it are quite simple, but the effects are very powerful.

[Repulsive Monkey]

"You control Qi with the muscles a little bit"!!! This must surely be a practice that is not from an internal art. Or if it is you are referring to a lower level and transitory stage surely!!!!?? Qi IS directed by the Yi. When one's cultivation improves one finds more and more that this is truely the case. Qi controls the muscles not the other way around! This said yes one can have an effect upon Qi by causing it to stagnate by over tensing of the muscles. However ultimately it should dawn upon internal stylists that Yi becomes even more commanding over the Qi the more one progresses, until reaching a certain mastery when one a level when it is spontaneous and and almost unregistered. It reminds me of a famous Grand Master who was attacked from behind whilst teaching some students, and without halting the teaching neutralised the poor fellows attack and left him on his back some 30 feet away. When aked what he did, he replied I don't know, I (that being his remeditative intention) didn't do anything. At this point is Qi almost had its own naturally defensive intention to react pertinently.

[PlasticSquirrel]

please, if you want to refute me, you might as well state this on the shaolin and southern forums, because most of their training is done with this method. yi jin jing and tid sin kuen are examples of legendary forms that build up tremendous jin, as well as some li. many people who train with either of these two methods have no need for golden bell or iron palm, because their methods can replicate the effects of these.

it is common knowledge that you can control qi with slight tension. who, when doing xingyi, uses intention rather than form to move qi until they have practiced for several years? yet xingyi practitioners are known for their deadly strikes after only two or three years, far before they really begin to use their yi. how can someone who has practiced only san ti shi still have great power, even though he hasn't used intention? it is only through training the muscles in some way, as well as the qi that someone can accomplish anything with these methods.

obviously, to use intention is better, but who can honestly say that they practice taiji only using the yi? i doubt anyone on this board is that advanced. if you are only moving your arms, you are still using some degree of tension, because your form is still not pure jin with your muscles controlled only through your yi. even if you are using your yi to control qi and muscles, you will still be using muscles, or there will be no way to move your arms. by using slight tension, qi automatically moves to the appropriate muscles to fuel them appropriately. zhan zhuang is only a prolonged extension of this method, done is a way that is exclusive to training the muscles that need training, while keeping the others fit, rather than training all of the muscles.

people take "softness" and "using the yi rather than li" to the extreme, and miss the harmonious relationship that they have with the other more elementary aspects of their training. how can a beginner only use the yi without any sort of tension and understand the eight doors? there is no possible way, and he will never understand the jins appropriately, unless he uses this method in at least an intermediary step.

[Kumkuat]

Actually, in my opinion, I do believe if you are taught correctly and worked hard, you can have a pretty mean internal power after 2-3 years.

[PlasticSquirrel]

i agree totally. i should clarify. what i meant was that without using the yi to guide qi, xingyiquan practitioners (as well as practitioners of other styles) are reputed with having devastating internal power only after 2-3 years of training (often in china, enough power to kill). they have so much power not because they use their yi to control qi, but because form controls qi. quite awhile after that, the form (xing) takes on the shape of the yi (mind-intention), and the metamorphasis from xing to yi begins, but one can not exist without the other. neither xing can be totally dominant, nor can yi totally be. it is the harmony and natural progression from xing to yi that characterizes the progression of all gongfu, and not just the internal styles. you can have great internal strength before you can use your yi, but using the yi after it is properly trained will create more powerful results.

the point of all this is that tension is always dormant, and must always exist to some degree, and that location of qi relies on it greatly no matter if you have little or much of it. think about it, if you don't use too much tension that you constrict meridians and channels, then qi will move to those regions automatically to "fuel" the muscles in their need for more energy. the muscles are in a state of working. qi locates to those places to help you accomplish your work. the body is a very one-pointed thing. the mind tends to cloud it until it can be trained to do otherwise.

hope i've cleared things up a little and explained a little better.

[bamboo_ leaf]

you can do this?

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[PlasticSquirrel]

"you can do this?"

i'm not sure exactly what you mean.

if you mean controlling qi with form or muscles, then i can certainly do that. the things that i've posted have been verified through my training, and are not subject to me to be superstition, slight feelings or sensations, or things i have read from books. they are completely and entirely tangible, as they are read to be.

if you mean controlling qi with the yi while practicing my forms, then i can only do that to a certain degree.

if you mean controlling qi with the yi while standing or sitting still, then i can easily direct it to any place i will it to.

if you mean controlling my whole body through a series of processes (yi,qi,jin,etc.) seamlessly, then i can't.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Then this is good; it gives a good reference point for ideas and discussion in the context of true experiences at our levels.

I find these types of topics interesting and informative as long as people approach things from what ever their understanding is by actual experience. We may not agree or understand this is okay.

As long as we are open and keep looking for the understandings that will help our own practice then this is good.

:)

as many have said none of these things are very esay, a product of much intorspection and hard practice.

luck in training

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[PlasticSquirrel]

your threads & posts lately have been pretty cool, bamboo leaf. the forum is starting to liven up. :)

[Wongsifu]

fu pow simply stated our whole body is full of chi we are 100% unadulterated chi, to lead the chi with li or muscular strength simply means that when you move your muscle the chi moves with it, kind of what tyson does when he punches you , he does have chi so does the old man next door so does the cleaning lady.

whereas using yi intent is basically using the yi , the mind, the most simple simple explanation is what you prolly first learn in boxing or wing chun, or whatever , if you want to hit sometihng harder and push it away further, imagine that you are hitting 3-4 inches behind the object, in tai ji terms a teacher would say put your intent behind the object, its still the muscles that move the body , in tai ji , actually more so the tendons, its just that there is no tension , you feel like you are punching without strength but 100% mind power.
Also you must remember where the mind goes the nergy follows always , if you think about your left little toe and place your mind on it the enrgy goes there , that is using the yi to guide your chi.

lastly about the iron wire form hung gar is internal its just that it works on different principles, when you tense your arms , this creates tension and traps the energy where you tense, this trapping greates a shield of energy around the body because the energy is jammed there, whereas in taiji sooo much energy is flowing continuasly if you get hit the energy goes ther eto protect you.

Ironically weight lifting if done correctly can enhance your internal training tremendously, since when you weight train you flex the muscle it grows larger and it creates more space for the energy to go into , its like imagine a sponge that is being held tight trying to get full of water , that is your muscle , imagine now letting go of that sponge, presto more space to store water in it hence more energy in it. However no tension must be applied or else you will tense up and not be relaxed engouh to do your internal.

you look at some of those old tai ji guys and they have some muscle boy , jeez ill never forget when i saw chen xiaowangs thigh and calf muscle , i assume from horse stance , it was ripped like a weight lifter !!!!

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[Repulsive Monkey]

What about all those high level Tai Chi Quan Masters who don't have great muscles eh?? The others who have spent their lives just cultivating their Qi? Saying that weight training improves internal training is the most debatable voicing I ever heard. I have to disagree as at most it only causes Qi stagnation. Weight training is most likely to be the best thing to diminish ones internal training, and even the Tai Chi classics will bear that one out. Tension of the muscles is what deteres Internal culvation. One is using Li to stagnate and impede the natural flow of Qi.

[Fu-Pow]

I have to admit in pictures I've seen of Chen Fake he looked pretty ripped. Not in the body builder sense, but he definitely has good tone.

However, what might be more important to note and Wong Sifu alluded to this is that in terms of Chinese martial arts the legs should be the strongest most developed part of the body. Hence the expression "strength is rooted in the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed by the hands."

In his book, The Sword Polisher's Record, Adam Hsu states that the best body shape for MA's is like a "pyramid." That is, a wide strong base narrowing to the top. This is the opposite of the Western ideal of an "inverted pyramid." That is, a bulging upper body and chicken legs.

The reasons for this body shape are obvious to any experienced martial artist. Balance. It is very difficult to tip over a pyramid. Where as it takes little effort to topple an inverted pyramid.

My point is that developing a huge heavy upper body is counterproductive to MA training. You might pick up a few more women at the beach in the summer time, but for MA's it will do nothing. You'll be clumsy, slow and easy to uproot.

But this doesn't mean that you should have buff legs and pigeon wings for arms. Their should be some sort of balance in this sense as well. Because the arms are required to move quickly and when fighting must stay in the on guard position for extended periods of time. Although, I don't doubt the internal power of high level Taiji masters it is naive to think that a real fighting situation is going to mimic push hands, where internal power becomes most effective. A basic fitness level is required for any martial art. Things aren't always going to be as clean as we would like them to be, no matter how good you are.

What seems to be more important, at least in my experience, is muscle endurance, muscle fiber recruitment and alignment. All of these can be trained without the use of weights. By doing forms, isometric excercises, pylometric excercises and other "whole body" or "whole muscle group" training methods.

Obviously, there is more to internal practices than just muscles, but I don't think you can totally neglect them, nor do I think that building muscles is a goal unto itself.

Remember the goal here is proficiency in fighting.

Fu-Pow

http://www.geocities.com/fu_pow/vmrc-halloween-3.jpg


http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Wongsifu]

note that i did say using the tendons to move the weights instead of the muscles, many of the highest level masters used to use weights yang bao i think it was listed here , broke his metal 10 foot pole whilst doign dan zi gung or about the other chen practitioner in his article where he was explaining about practising with an 80 pound stone between his hands.
I dont have the article i read it at a friends house.

i used to think like that also but look at bagua masters who used to practise circle walking with weights on them.

i dont mean literally chen fa ke used to go to the gym and pump iron !!!
:D

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[prana]

the mind rides on the winds...

Where the mind is not still and focussed, neither will the winds. If you can still your mind without having to still your mind, then your winds will be stilled.

It took me many years to find this out and not through MA training. The great Shaolin minds have made an art out of it because their knowledge is so vast. How lucky and fortunate for all of you TCM people to just have a great art.

Have faith and keep training.

[PlasticSquirrel]

repulsive monkey: are the things you're saying out of experience or from books and magazines? i'm just wondering. not trying to attack you or anything. i just want to know where you're coming from.

the most reputed masters of taijiquan for their jin, chen masters, are usually pretty ripped, and they have to be to practice with those low stances. masters of other styles that utilize higher stances and more relaxed movements are usually seen with smaller builds and muscles, but they aren't nearly as noted for their strong jin. a point to consider, at least.

fighting ability is different from strong jin, though, and other styles of taijiquan reflect this quite eloquently. yang style, for instance, does not train the muscles quite so vigorously, and also uses higher stances and does not resist force or attempt to neutralize it as much as it does going along with it. in this way, they do not use as much strong jin, but are still competent fighters with some extremely deadly moves. moves like white snake spits poison and fair lady weaves shuttles are very dangerous moves, but they use only a little jin, and that is all they need. quite an admirable thing to be able to fight without putting forth much effort.