Chi belief or reality

[bamboo_ leaf]

Many here talk of internal power and practices.

I was wondering when or how did you come to the conclusion that what you felt was not product of your mind and how did you determine this?

Are those that can feel this more or less subject to it’s influence because of their believes?

Are those that don’t believe or follow this not subject to the effects?

:)

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[Daniel Madar]

Darn,

Man, Bamboo, you are on a roll!

Okay, I'll start off.

As a teenager, I began martial arts at a kind of McDojo. At the time it was the best in the area, but maybe not so good. I did all the standard things, like watch Bruce Lee flicks, and read "Zen in the Martial Arts".

When I found out about Ki, it was very appealing, but completely nebulous. It was only explained to me as this "kind of force". People would walk around saying "He has strong ki" or "I used my chi to break the board", so I had a very vague concept of it.

I moved to Japan, and spent some time doing kendo, and the explanations of chi/ki remained very vague. I met all kinds of gaijin Aikido ka who were willing to go on and on about it, but that never really gave me a clue about it.

BUT... I did *believe* in it.

Now, when I came back from Japan, I met a fellow who was very similar to me in many ways. We were both religious, both arrogant, and both had a passion for Martial Arts, despite him being far better than I was.

He was fixated on learning bagua, and as luck would have it, he met a bagua teacher.

He told me all kinds of crazy things about bagua, stuff about "internal" styles I'd never heard. I wanted to believe what he was telling me was the truth, but believing that Qi is a physical phenomenon is very different from believing in a vague "force".

So I asked him to show me.

He placed his palm against mine, and didn't move. We were just standing with our arms extended, palm to palm.

And then, I felt bubbles popping up from his palm. It was like I was being poked, the bubbles were coming out so strong. BUT, his hand and his body never moved.

This was before I learned what fa jing, li, yi or anything related to martial arts was. All I knew was that he wasn't moving, but my hand was being 'poked'. If he said it was chi, it was good enough for me.

And so I was off. And I no longer believe in qi. I simply know it exists, the same way I know I breath air or that two plus two is four.

Merciless is Mercy.

[EARTH DRAGON]

another good question bamboo leaf!
The first time I actually knew that my chi could be felt was when I was training and living in chinatown SF. I was studying with a very famous qigong master Yen Chu Feng, She was teaching me the art of jin gong tzu li gung (A medical qigong). Their is a technique called ping chi gong where you shoot chi from the fingertips to heal your patient. I was practicing it one day and I said to her when will I know if I am doing this right... she said try, I pointed my crossed hand position at my kung fu brother who was facing away from me sitting across the room reading a book, when I concentrated really hard and pointed without looking up out of his book he rubbed the back of his neck once, then again and then on the third time he lifted his head turned around smiled and asked what I was doing and to stop it... I freaked and say no way, what did you feel, he said like a tingly heat on the back of my neck swirling around in circles. That was the first time I really belived in chi not that I was a sceptic but that was solid proof it was not my imagination. Since then I have worked on many patients and had positive results without touching them they feel better and I am able to eliveiate pain and cure simple symtoms. I invite you to check out the masters page of my website and click the picture of my qigong teacher shooting chi into me as I insert a 9" steel wire through my thigh without the slighest bit of pain of blood.the proof is in the pudding.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmm....I think Chi is the connection between the abstract "mind" and the physical body. A place that science has barely started to penetrate.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[[Censored]]

Are those that don’t believe or follow [Qi] not subject to the effects?

If you stop believing in gravity, do you think you will float away? :)

You can stop believing in the IRS, and stop paying taxes. If you somehow manage to stay out of prison, don't take that as proof your theory was correct.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Things like gravity at some point in time where not accepted. It was once said that what goes up must come down, at this point in time we know this statement is no longer true.

If you did manage to stay out of prison you would have had to acknowledge the fact that some do pay taxes but you chose not to.

I don’t quite understand how this relates to the org. post. :)


For me it is a fact born out of direct experience tested in a way that reinforces the experience. As Daniel and ED posted this idea manifested it self in a undeniable physical reality independent of belief.


Fow Pow,

I don’t quite understand, sorry a little slow.

If you feel it how did you know what you where feeling was not product of your mind?
If you can feel it are you more esaly affected by its effects or less.
If you can’t feel it or don’t believe it dose it still have the same effects.

bamboo leaf

www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[[Censored]]

Things like gravity at some point in time where not accepted...

And yet people generally stayed on the ground, even in the olden days. Do you know why?

I don’t quite understand how this relates to the org. post. :)

You don't have to believe in the laws of the universe. You don't have to agree with them. You ARE subject to them. And if you don't like it, mister, you go and find a different universe to live in.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Wow, if I don’t like it.

My writing is poor we may actually be in agreement although I wasn’t looking to agree or disagree with anyone just interested in their thoughts. I ask for clarification only.


i think there may be ideas or "laws" that are not accepted or understood, depending on the culture it may be explained in a differnt way.

I take what you mean is that weather you believe it or not you are still subject to it?

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[Daniel Madar]

Old Favorites:

The Sun goes around the earth.

The Earth is flat.

The stars are shining lights on rotating crystal spheres which surround the Earth.

Everything circles the Sun.

The speed of sound can not be broken.

The laws of the universe you are holding up are not laws at all. They are merely frequently incorrect interpretations of a microcosmic view of physical events.

Which is to say, "Just cuz you don't see it, don't mean it ain't happening."

Let's get back to gravity for a second.

We all know what gravity is, and how to measure its physical effects. What we don't know is why there is gravity. Yes, that is correct. No one knows why masses are attracted to each other. It's not magnetism, so what is it? ****, looks like we are screwed, ne?

You need to talk to a decent quantum physicist. It will be an eye opening experience.

Merciless is Mercy.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Outstanding post daniel!!!!!! 2 thumbs up
we know not of what we have not understood.
and know only little more that we have proven.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Alvar]

"How Does Qi Relate to Science, and What Do Leading Scientists Think about Qi?"

http://twm.co.nz/DrYan_qi.htm

[[Censored]]

The Sun goes around the earth.

The Earth is flat.

The stars are shining lights on rotating crystal spheres which surround the Earth.

Everything circles the Sun.

The speed of sound can not be broken.

The laws of the universe you are holding up are not laws at all. They are merely frequently incorrect interpretations of a microcosmic view of physical events.

You misunderstand, I held up no such laws. The only law I held up is that "people generally stay on the ground." Do you dare to disagree?

Which is to say, "Just cuz you don't see it, don't mean it ain't happening."

Right. :) Now, you should've stopped while you were ahead...

Let's get back to gravity for a second.

We all know what gravity is, and how to measure its physical effects. What we don't know is why there is gravity. Yes, that is correct. No one knows why masses are attracted to each other.

They are lonely. However, this final cause is not really relevant. You are pushing my analogy out of scope.

It's not magnetism, so what is it? ****, looks like we are screwed, ne?

Speak for yourself. The position "I can't explain Qi (or gravity), therefore it cannot be explained" is absurd.

You need to talk to a decent quantum physicist. It will be an eye opening experience.

You need to talk to a smarter one.

[Daniel Madar]

The only law I held up is that "people generally stay on the ground." Do you dare to disagree?


Yes, actually I do. Despite the attacks and crashes recently, any number of people can and do leave the ground with regularity, through the miracle of an airplane.

Merciless is Mercy.

[[Censored]]

RTFD (http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=generally) :rolleyes:

[Daniel Madar]

You misunderstand, I held up no such laws.

You don't have to believe in the laws of the universe.

people generally stay on the ground.

gen·er·al·ly (jnr--l)
adv.
Popularly; widely

See, now that's exactly my point. You seem to be speaking a bit too generally. Just because something is "popularly", or "widely" held to be true does not make it so. Please refer to my prior post about the earth being flat.

[[Censored]]

Fact: You cannot opt-out of the effects of gravity, nor of Qi.

[Daniel Madar]

There are scientific investigations underway to negate gravity. I'll try to post a URL or magazine issue.

Since we've agreed to quit with the word play, I'll assume you mean there is no way for an unaided human being to negate gravity.

To my knowledge, no.

And I agree with your initial (way way back) that disbelief of chi does not prevent it from effecting you, anymore than not noticing the sniper with a .50 cal sniper rifle a mile away won't prevent you from being killed.

But I've had fun in the meantime. Thanks!

Merciless is Mercy.

[grounded]

anyone who doubts the reality of chi should simply go see an accupuncturist. Ripples of electricity rolling accross your back like waves on the ocean tends to remove disbelief.+ :D

[prana]

Don't bother asking someone else.
Don't need to believe or disbelieve
Just need to sit for a few moments
and watch your breath touching your nostrils.
Eventually, you will understand see and feel for yourself
This experience stays with you like your first taxes
and it cannot be refuted otherwise, even by the greatests of Goktimus's
I urge you to sit and simply watch